**6 Creedmoor**

[Islander]

Anyone have any hard data (not bubba stories) about slowing down the speed of 6CM to preserve and extend accurate barrel life?

I might have some after another 2,000 rds. Just started loading for a RPR in 6CM. Tested from 36.0 to 41.5 of H4350 and Hornady 105 match. Had the best groups at 37.6 with a velocity of 2890 so I figured I’d shoot it there and see how it goes. I’m seating .020 off the lands, so time will tell.

 

[Flightmurse]

Alright, my 6 creed project is finally coming together. I need some loads to break in the barrel before I start load development. I have brass, nosler 105 cc’d, and h4350. I was thinking of just loading up 20 at 40.5 just for sight in and barrel break in, seated 20 thou off the lands. Any better ideas?

 

[Flightmurse]

If you just want to break it in drop it to 39.5gr. You're going to get higher pressure and slower velocity on a new barrel. Once you get 50 to 80rds on it you can ladder it. I would also save the 4350 and just buy a lb of something cheap to break in with

Thank you for the advice. I have enough 4350 to get me through the barrel, and I can’t seem to find much of any other powders around unless I could use up some 4831sc in it.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

@Niles Coyote why are you running a 220 free bore, and with 105 hybrids? What the benefit of such a big jump?

 

[Baddog 0302]

The 6 Creed match chambers have less free bore than the standard chamber.

Hand loads or factory ammunition?

Barrel twist, unless you’re looking to run the heavies then the 1:7 or 1:7.5 is ideal if not 1:8 is fine.

Barrel length, You’ll loose anywhere from 25 to 70 FPS between the two, however, it could be more, and it could be less.

Just to bang steel? Take a pick, you’ll be happy with either.

I looked at reamer work sheets or what ever they are called pictures of the 6 CM & 6 CM Match, it looks like the match total ]throat & leade} are several "curly hairs" longer. I like to do a "break in"off the lands, then start with the bullet hitting the lands and then start backing off to find what works best.
Stumbled upon some NCC & D-TAC 115's at a estate sale, might see if some of the locals want the heavies, that way I can go with a 1-8 and stay with the 108 ELD's
Thank you

 

[Niles Coyote]

@Niles Coyote why are you running a 220 free bore, and with 105 hybrids? What the benefit of such a big jump?

Because that's the reamer Craddock had and 60 thousandths off is a great place to be with 115 Dtac's, which is that barrels primary projectile.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

I was genuinely curious, I’m not criticizing you, I’m trying to learn.

I’m running DTACs with a 160 free bore and I’m not in the case. I’m not 60 off, but will 60 off with a 220 free bore allow you to be mag fed?

 

[Niles Coyote]

Sorry, didn't mean to come off sounding harsh. IIRC, my oal is around 2.850-2.860... I'll have to double check that as it's been a year since I loaded for that barrel.

 

[giumau1]

Any joy with the Norma's (MRP/URP) anyone? According to Quickload MRP should be just as good as RL-26 behind Hybrids 105, 109 and Atips, here in EU H4350 is no more an option, if it ever was...

 

[MilSpecOkie]

Any joy with the Norma's (MRP/URP) anyone? According to Quickload MRP should be just as good as RL-26 behind Hybrids 105, 109 and Atips, here in EU H4350 is no more an option, if it ever was...

Berger told me 36.0 to 40.0 for 109s and URP. They said it was from QL with a 26” barrel, loaded to 2.800 inches, but should be close. I have four pounds of URP to try. How is the temp stability? I don’t see URP around anymore and wonder if they dropped or replaced it?

 

[giumau1]

Berger told me 36.0 to 40.0 for 109s and URP. They said it was from QL with a 26” barrel, but should be close. I have four pounds of URP to try. How is the temp stability? I don’t see URP around anymore and wonder if they dropped or replaced it?

Thanks. Stability is great (Tested 50-85 F) and speed is there too. Excellent results here with 6.5 cm and mid weight pills like 135 atips and bergers 130 Otm tactical. I am in Europe so supply is not an issue, but you have to buy at least 10 1# jars if you want it so trying to understand if it could be good for both calibers I reload

 

[craigos]

Hi All

Am running 41.15gr H4350 under a 115 DTAC in Alpha SRP brass. I got two boxes of Lapua SRP - how do the two cases compare? Anyone loaded up their Lapua 6CM load in a Alpha case, or vise versa? Verdict? Findings?

 

[MilSpecOkie]

Thanks. Stability is great (Tested 50-85 F) and speed is there too. Excellent results here with 6.5 cm and mid weight pills like 135 atips and bergers 130 Otm tactical. I am in Europe so supply is not an issue, but you have to buy at least 10 1# jars if you want it so trying to understand if it could be good for both calibers I reload

The info above is loaded to 2.800" and guesstimated speed is 2996 FPS with a 40.0 grain charge of URP at 96% fill capacity.

 

[hunting_fishing_addict]

Hey Hide. Need some starting advice. I only have specific stock because of covid.
What I have: 105 Berger Hybrids, 205M, Perterson SRP, H4350, I'm going to expand the virgin brass with my mandrel for .002 neck tension. What seating depth do you recommend to start with? Charge?
Rifle: GAP PPR, 26 in Bartlien with 1:7.2 twist it's broken in with about 40 rounds of factory ammo.

 

[Raufoss]

Hey Hide. Need some starting advice. I only have specific stock because of covid.
What I have: 105 Berger Hybrids, 205M, Perterson SRP, H4350, I'm going to expand the virgin brass with my mandrel for .002 neck tension. What seating depth do you recommend to start with? Charge?
Rifle: GAP PPR, 26 in Bartlien with 1:7.2 twist it's broken in with about 40 rounds of factory ammo.

shoot it more before doing anything serious..40 his not enough IMO

0.070" for jump and between 40 to 42gr of H4250

 

[Lunchbox27]

Hey Hide. Need some starting advice. I only have specific stock because of covid.
What I have: 105 Berger Hybrids, 205M, Perterson SRP, H4350, I'm going to expand the virgin brass with my mandrel for .002 neck tension. What seating depth do you recommend to start with? Charge?
Rifle: GAP PPR, 26 in Bartlien with 1:7.2 twist it's broken in with about 40 rounds of factory ammo.

like Raufoss said, keep sending some rounds down the barrel. That is your true break in. I don't even start load development until after 100 rounds are down the barrel. It will speed up.

 

[Gobears16]

With Berger Hybrid 105, 20 thou off the lands, 205m, peterson brass, I'm getting 3085fps with H4350 and sub 1/2 groups out to 600. I can push it faster (3150) and still hold accuracy but I throttled back to save some barrel life. Like others have stated I would start at 39gr and work up to 42gr at 20th thou.

 

[nrspence]

Hey Hide. Need some starting advice. I only have specific stock because of covid.
What I have: 105 Berger Hybrids, 205M, Perterson SRP, H4350, I'm going to expand the virgin brass with my mandrel for .002 neck tension. What seating depth do you recommend to start with? Charge?
Rifle: GAP PPR, 26 in Bartlien with 1:7.2 twist it's broken in with about 40 rounds of factory ammo.

You should do a seating depth ladder test before you find a powder charge node your barrel likes. Start at 20 thou and work back, see what your barrel likes. I suggest reading Mark Gordon's bullet jump test results. The 105 hybrids really like 70 to 80 thou of jump. 40gr of H4350 would be a safe load for testing.

 

[hunting_fishing_addict]

With Berger Hybrid 105, 20 thou off the lands, 205m, peterson brass, I'm getting 3085fps with H4350 and sub 1/2 groups out to 600. I can push it faster (3150) and still hold accuracy but I throttled back to save some barrel life. Like others have stated I would start at 39gr and work up to 42gr at 20th thou.

How many grains of H4350 did you end up in final?

 

[Gobears16]

How many grains of H4350 did you end up in final?

I ended it up 40.2gr of h4350. This is in a seekins ph1

 

[hunting_fishing_addict]

Some are saying jump test then powder charge test, then some say opposite. Which is it? I have always done charge then jump. Am I missing out on something here?

 

[giumau1]

Some are saying jump test the powder charge, then some say opposite. Which is it? I have always done charge then jump. Am I missing out on something here?

have a look at this

Bullet Jump: Is Less Always Better?

About 2 years ago, Mark Gordon shared some preliminary research he’d conducted with the Applied Bal...

precisionrifleblog.com

 

[hunting_fishing_addict]

have a look at this

Bullet Jump: Is Less Always Better?

About 2 years ago, Mark Gordon shared some preliminary research he’d conducted with the Applied Bal...

precisionrifleblog.com

So... Jump test then to a charge test?

 

[giumau1]

So... Jump test then to a charge test?

Long story short, yes. You make your bullet happy with his preferred jump( in the end he does the hard work hitting the target for you) and afterwards you make your rifle happy with the right charge. I was wondering if it would be possible to shrink or even skip the ocw using a ats barrel tuner instead.
if that works, once your barrel is settled, the number of rounds you have to shoot to find the right load will be really short, at least if you are after a PRS load. It is another way to extend barrel life.

 

[MilSpecOkie]

Not that anyone asked but I’m using the following and it’s working good.

109 LRHT, .083” jump, 40.4 RL16, Lapua SRP, CCI450. This gives me 2965 FPS with a 24” Rock Creek barrel.

 

[giumau1]

You are most welcome. To each rifle its own but I believe you use top notch components that are on everyone’s list so this is helpful.

Not that anyone asked but I’m using the following and it’s working good.

109 LRHT, .083” jump, 40.4 RL16, Lapua SRP, CCI450. This gives me 2965 FPS with a 24” Rock Creek barrel.

 

[Jakerz]

Is anyone running any CCI 400's in the small rifle primer brass in place of the 450s? I've got 1000 of the 400's and can't seem to find any 450's anywhere lol

 

[MilSpecOkie]

Never used them myself. The thin cup can be problematic if you run high pressure, don’t have a bushed firing pin hole or custom action that has a small firing pin. At least this seems to be common from what I’ve seen written on 400s.

 

[Jakerz]

Never used them myself. The thin cup can be problematic if you run high pressure, don’t have a bushed firing pin hole or custom action that has a small firing pin. At least this seems to be common from what I’ve seen written on 400s.

Yeah, I didn't know the specific differences between them, I need to do some research, I ordered an AI with a SFP so I don't think that will be an issie, looks like a need to dump $100 on some primers though, sucks.

Jake

 

[Iron Worker]

Thinking of burning some Hodgdon Hybrid100V behind 112gr Barns Match burners ,anyone have experience with this powder ? ADG Brass and Fed 210M primers ,26"bbl 7.5 twist.

 

[Jakerz]

I bought 2 pounds of H4350 and 2 pounds of Varget this week so I'll be ok for a minute, I wanna get a 6 Dasher Barrel for my AI too, but gonna shoot out the 6 creed first, just trying to use what I have.

Jake

 

[5RWill]

Question guys i have a 22” 6cm in the works i tried to change to a 20” 6.5 saum at the last second but the barrel was already being turned. I thought I’d be better suited running 129gr ABLR at 3000-3100. Which brings me to my question.

Out of a 22” tube with a can is it feasible to get the 115gr hunting vld to around 3000 give or take? That would be extremely similar to what i had planned with the saum. If not i might just stick with the 105 or 108.

I’ve truthfully been wanting to try 100gr TGKs but just never had a good epxiernxe with the 165gr so I’m thinking I’m gonna stick with Berger.

 

[Woollymonster]

Question guys i have a 22” 6cm in the works i tried to change to a 20” 6.5 saum at the last second but the barrel was already being turned. I thought I’d be better suited running 129gr ABLR at 3000-3100. Which brings me to my question.

Out of a 22” tube with a can is it feasible to get the 115gr hunting vld to around 3000 give or take? That would be extremely similar to what i had planned with the saum. If not i might just stick with the 105 or 108.

I’ve truthfully been wanting to try 100gr TGKs but just never had a good epxiernxe with the 165gr so I’m thinking I’m gonna stick with Berger.

I get 3100 fps on the nose out of my 26" barrel using Berger Match Hybrid and 42.0 grains of H4350.

So, I would say no. You would probably get around 2900 with 105's and less with 115's out of a 22" barrel.

 

[5RWill]

I get 3100 fps on the nose out of my 26" barrel using Berger Match Hybrid and 42.0 grains of H4350.

So, I would say no. You would probably get around 2900 with 105's and less with 115's out of a 22" barrel.

Really? Which Berger hybrid are you using? Every results I’ve seen of 105s with 22~24” tubes have hit 2950~3050 with ease. Thinking of trying 6.5 staball. Book says 3000fps out of a 24” tube with a 115 granted not sure which 115. I know the 115 is a different ball game but I’d be shocked if i couldn’t hit 3000 with a 105.

 

[Woollymonster]

Really? Which Berger hybrid are you using? Every results I’ve seen of 105s with 22~24” tubes have hit 2950~3050 with ease. Thinking of trying 6.5 staball. Book says 3000fps out of a 24” tube with a 115 granted not sure which 115. I know the 115 is a different ball game but I’d be shocked if i couldn’t hit 3000 with a 105.

105 Berger Match Hybrid Target
26" Bartlein M24 barrel
42.0 grains H4350
Lapua brass
Fed GM205 Match primer

3100 fps average of 10 shots

I think a good rule of thumb is to decrease velocity for every 1" of barrel lost by 50 fps. That would put you at 2900 fps, unless you load hotter.

I have 2 lbs of 6.5 Stabil but I am saving it for my 6.5 CM AR10. It will have a 20" barrel.

When working up loads for my 6CM, I got the 5 shot group below so, I stopped. Most guys shooting PRS are downloading slower for barrel life.

 

[5RWill]

Upon running berger's stability calculator, i switched lanes to the 108gr EH. The 115 in theory sounded nice and i wanted to run it but what i'd lose in stability BC wise with my 1in8 would make the gains in energy nearly negligible compared to the 108. The 108 being a hybrid design also bodes well for working up a load. Though oddly enough i'm only marginally stable with their twist calculator. Box says 1in8 recommended but putting in the data they suggested 1in7.75

 

[Krob95]

Are many folks running 109 hybrids? Just getting a 6cm barrel for my AI and want to run the 109’s. Will be using h4350, CCI 450’s, and lapua srp brass

 

[jeffreybehr]

Krob, my experience is not broad, but among the Sierra MK110, Nosler RDF105, a Midway factory-second 103, and the Berger109, the Berger won with smallest groups.. Am shooting a newish Savage 110 Tactical Desert with 7-1/2" twist and using SUPERFORMANCE, new StarLine cases, and CCI400s.. Powder charges with SPFM were up to 44.0g. with no signs of excess pressure.. Will be going higher than that with my next batch of testing.

 

[30cal user]

Are many folks running 109 hybrids? Just getting a 6cm barrel for my AI and want to run the 109’s. Will be using h4350, CCI 450’s, and lapua srp brass

looks like most are jumping them 20 - 90 off the lands and in that 39.5 to 41 gr area with RL 16 and H4350 and appears to be a 2960 node and 3040 ish node with this combination

 

[Jperk0278]

Ok, how plausible does this seem to the more experienced reloaders than me?

180 rounds in
26” 1-8T Hart barrel
42.1 grains H4350
Lapua brass
CCI400
105 hybrids .090 (!) off the lands

Is anyone else jumping the 105 hybrids that far? That’s where it seems to shoot best.

 

[Krob95]

looks like most are jumping them 20 - 90 off the lands and in that 39.5 to 41 gr area with RL 16 and H4350 and appears to be a 2960 node and 3040 ish node with this combination

Low and behold. There sure is. Found a lower node at 39.3gr and a high node at 41.7. Gonna do some playing around in the high node and find a good spot to settle it into. See if I can get those ES/SD numbers a little lower. Going to try and shoot a match next month with it.

AI AXSA with a factory (bartlein) 26” 1/7.7tw
Virgin Lapua brass
CCI 450’s
109 Berger LRHT

 

[Joel Danielson]

Ok, how plausible does this seem to the more experienced reloaders than me?

180 rounds in
26” 1-8T Hart barrel
42.1 grains H4350
Lapua brass
CCI400
105 hybrids .090 (!) off the lands

Is anyone else jumping the 105 hybrids that far? That’s where it seems to shoot best.

Every barrel is different, even using the same reamer. If that's where they all start going in the same hole, use it until they don't any more.
Cheers

 

[Joel Danielson]

Low and behold. There sure is. Found a lower node at 39.3gr and a high node at 41.7. Gonna do some playing around in the high node and find a good spot to settle it into. See if I can get those ES/SD numbers a little lower. Going to try and shoot a match next month with it.

AI AXSA with a factory (bartlein) 26” 1/7.7tw
Virgin Lapua brass
CCI 450’s
109 Berger LRHT

View attachment 7532565View attachment 7532566

What was the temp and humidity? How did they print on paper?

 

[Krob95]

I don’t know, high 60 low 70 degrees indoors. I don’t break out the kestrel indoors when I shoot. Just out on the steel range lol bottom right is the 41.7gr node. Shooting through hella mirage coming from my barrel and can.

 

[Joel Danielson]

I don’t know, high 60 low 70 degrees indoors. I don’t break out the kestrel indoors when I shoot. Just out on the steel range lol bottom right is the 41.7gr node. Shooting through hella mirage coming from my barrel and can. View attachment 7532604

Was this at 100 yards? How much jump? I could not get the 109's to perform (vertical) when I tried them. My one concern for you with the high node will be your vertical if that is shot at 100 yards or less. Low ES/SD numbers a great, but if they won't perform on target the numbers don't matter. Good luck

 

[Krob95]

Only jumping 20k. And yes at 100yds.

 

[30cal user]

go with the lower node...save brass life, bbl life, etc. the difference even at 1000 yds is small

 

[JAMER]

I just loaded up a jump ladder of Berger 109 Hybrids in 6mm Creedmoor once-fired Hornady brass. These Berger 109 Hybrids are skinny!

Even with the same COAL as say a Hornady 108 ELD-M, the minimum jump I can seat the bullet at and still fit in the magazine (with a tiny gap at the tip) is about 0.107". Wow. AFAIK this is a standard SAAMI chamber since it is a Howa factory barreled action. Are other handloaders here seeing the same need to jump this far with the Berger 109 Hybrid? I'll know soon enough if these big jumps work after testing, but the only way I can see to shorten the jump (short of buying a custom barrel) is to window the magazine. I've done this in other calibers for the same reasons, but am wondering if it is common practice for this bullet. I do not want to hand feed.

BTW I measured the jump in my rifle with the factory Hornady 108 ELDM to be 0.045", a moderate jump at least. That bullet shoots sub-MOA out to 1000 yards in the same rifle.

While reading up on long bullet jumps I stumbled across the article below. Big jumps are not necessarily a bad thing, and may actually be preferable. Also that is supposedly one of the benefits of this Berger Hybrid bullet, less jump sensitivity. At any rate I have loaded up a jump series with a constant load (40.0 gr Re16, BR-4 primer) and will be looking at the vertical spread. It should be an interesting test.

Bullet Jump: Is Less Always Better?

About 2 years ago, Mark Gordon shared some preliminary research he’d conducted with the Applied Bal...

precisionrifleblog.com

 

[Krob95]

I am getting 2.310” or something close to that in a brand new WinTac chambered bartlein 6CM barrel with 109 hybrids. I’m loading them 20k off and they shoot great. Fit in the mag with no problem as well

 

[JAMER]

My CBTO is 2.177" and COAL is 2.782" for the shortest jump I loaded (about .110"). Both of those could be upped maybe 0.020-0.030" if I removed the pad from the magazine, and a bit more if I windowed the magazine.

I'll just have to see how they shoot. I'm not used to jumping bullets this far, but that does not mean it is a bad thing.