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6mm Dasher
- Thread starter BoilerUP
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I assumed was the 34.8 he used for the per round calculation. You won’t be able to stuff 34.8 of h4350 in anything than Lapua, or maybe Alpha but by a long tube…
That’s water volume I think? I wouldn’t stuff 34.8 grs. of any powder in a Dasher case.
So here are the Facts: I have a 6 mm dasher and use Aplha brass, and can easily load 35.4 gr ( .2 above Hodgdon max for a 107 gr SMK) into the Alpha case and seat a 107SMK with a Forester seating die.
My fired 6 dasher Alpha cases hold 40.1 gr of H2O. And the Hodgdon 2020 Annual Manual P #84 has load data for H4350 107 gr SMK 35.2 gr (C for compressed powder charge) as a max load. Seems like I tried this load but, but do not have any data on it. According to Hodgdon you can load 38.3 gr of H4350 into the dasher case with a 90 gr SWT SCIR.
I load 40.8 gr of CFE 223 behind a 58 gr V Max, mabe a bit more...they are running 4100 fps out of a 7.5 twist and grouping very well for a varmint bullet.
I consider the 6 mm Dasher to be the best 6 mm available for accuracy vs velocity. It will run 110 SMK at 3085 fps, accurately...or slow down to 2950 to 3020 with a match bullet for one hole groups in the .2s" for not so good shooters.
My fired 6 dasher Alpha cases hold 40.1 gr of H2O. And the Hodgdon 2020 Annual Manual P #84 has load data for H4350 107 gr SMK 35.2 gr (C for compressed powder charge) as a max load. Seems like I tried this load but, but do not have any data on it. According to Hodgdon you can load 38.3 gr of H4350 into the dasher case with a 90 gr SWT SCIR.
I load 40.8 gr of CFE 223 behind a 58 gr V Max, mabe a bit more...they are running 4100 fps out of a 7.5 twist and grouping very well for a varmint bullet.
I consider the 6 mm Dasher to be the best 6 mm available for accuracy vs velocity. It will run 110 SMK at 3085 fps, accurately...or slow down to 2950 to 3020 with a match bullet for one hole groups in the .2s" for not so good shooters.
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Well, IMHO... depends on how far you want to shoot, or just smoke hundreds of dogs.
The new bullets have a max range at which they will expand...maybe 600 yds at good muzzle velocities. After that it's just a 6mm, so maybe one of the high BC target bullets would help you connect ...if shooting for a record say 1000 yds or more. For all out slaughter at reasonable ranges 400 yds and in, say, mostly 95 % of "the tries" the 223 is the one for the task.
I have shot the 6mm 58 gr at 4100 fps in the 6 Dasher with 7.5 twist with good accuracy...closer range, " Blast em into the sky, in pieces." A Beatles song, I believe.
The new bullets have a max range at which they will expand...maybe 600 yds at good muzzle velocities. After that it's just a 6mm, so maybe one of the high BC target bullets would help you connect ...if shooting for a record say 1000 yds or more. For all out slaughter at reasonable ranges 400 yds and in, say, mostly 95 % of "the tries" the 223 is the one for the task.
I have shot the 6mm 58 gr at 4100 fps in the 6 Dasher with 7.5 twist with good accuracy...closer range, " Blast em into the sky, in pieces." A Beatles song, I believe.
First off, thank you guys for ending my 3 year debate on what 6mm case to settle on.
I finally swapped out my HMR from 308 to 6 Dasher and I fricking love this thing so far, so I thought I should share data.
24.25" Kreiger Light Palma (it's going to be a hunting gun, PRS and occasional F-Class)
Manson Reamer with .150 freebore using spiders.
I am using Peterson brass due to being locally sourced
31.0 Varget
CCI 450
Sierra 107s
2770 FPS using a Garmin
10.4 ES
3.8 SD
The first 50 rounds down the tube and the last 5 shot group I shot a personal best 0.077"
I don't yet know how far off the lands I am but we're going to make a gauge this weekend. The Peterson is VERY round at the shoulder junction, I cant wait to start shooting formed brass.
I finally swapped out my HMR from 308 to 6 Dasher and I fricking love this thing so far, so I thought I should share data.
24.25" Kreiger Light Palma (it's going to be a hunting gun, PRS and occasional F-Class)
Manson Reamer with .150 freebore using spiders.
I am using Peterson brass due to being locally sourced
31.0 Varget
CCI 450
Sierra 107s
2770 FPS using a Garmin
10.4 ES
3.8 SD
The first 50 rounds down the tube and the last 5 shot group I shot a personal best 0.077"
I don't yet know how far off the lands I am but we're going to make a gauge this weekend. The Peterson is VERY round at the shoulder junction, I cant wait to start shooting formed brass.
@samsgreen you are in for a treat. Congrats on making the right choice for you. It’s a pretty damn easy cartridge to love.
@morning would thank you, it has been great so far! I have a really rookie question that I havent been able to find the answer to, here goes;
My reamer is .273 neck and .104 freebore. With that being said, I've been using Peterson brass and would like to try Alpha. Can I? I've fallen in the rabbit hole of Norma length stuff and cant seem to decipher what the Alpha is exactly.
The rational for reamer selection was that the Peterson was locally available but now the shop can only seem to get Alpha, the usual online places are out of Peterson.
6mm Norma Dasher is the long neck brass, all the rest should be "standard" length. Obviously, the longer Norma Dasher brass cannot be used in a "standard" Dasher chamber without being trimmed to the appropriate length.
PT&G makes (or made) a reamer for the 6mm Norma Dasher with the longer neck.
I don't currently use any other brass besides Norma Dasher, so I cannot comment about the other brands you mentioned.
Can you please give some details about your barrel brand, rifling (cut or button), and length?
Also, what size groups?
I tried some 70gr, 75gr, and 87gr loads yesterday with terrible results from my 7.5T.
Bartlein 5 R SS 28" M24 cut rifling 7.5 twist. I'm not a very good shooter these days eyesight and old age, but it did 13, 5 shot groups with different powders and bullets the average of the 13 was, .313" I chambered it myself with my own reamer. It shoots 55 to 115 well, the 58 was good at 4100 fps in the 7.5 twist.
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Varget is a good powder for accuracy..."usually" in heavy bullet loads...in 6 dasher...but it seems to change its strips and sometimes the worst powder depending on the application including the 308 where it had a S/D of 58 fps on weighed charges in a 16" barrel.
So Varget can be a good choice, but not always the best.
Here I used CFE223 with the Varmint bullets, maximum load in the Hornady annual manual, for both bullets, with Alpha brass and Remington 7 1/2 primer. About 40.8 gr with 55 gr & 58 gr bullets...the 58 was fast and accurate, as well as the 70 BT. The 55 gr was ok but needed a little adjustment, lower velocity, or higher velocity...would probably do it, to where it comes together...but the other two are not picky fill it up with CFE223...work up to the manual max and give it a try. 6 mm Dasher is notoriously accurate, find the area your barrel likes.
That might be a barrel preference thing...but in my barrel the Berger 108 match shoot better than the Hornady 108 eldm but not by much and Berger seem more consistent for small groups
Only shot a few hundred Berger 105s they were harder to get and the 108 Berger was so accurate and obtainable...So bought thousands, with the 108 Berger slightly better than the 105 Berger, in my barrel.
They do double duty 108 Berger and 108 ELDM are used in the 6mm ARC also, with usually a slight advantage to Berger.
Is it possible to create Dasher brass from a six. five millimeter creedmoor case?
I'd guess it's technically possible but definitely the hard way vs Alpha Dasher brass or fire forming Lapua.
Yes, you can...but should you?
Here is how I do it but it's definitely not recommend, unless you can not get any brass...I use Alpha brass for my 6 Dasher...
But 6 dasher can be made out of any 308 based cartridge, even a 30-06 if you care to work at it.
I used LR primer 6.5 CM brass but you can get SR primed 6.5 CM brass.
The shiny one is 6.5 CM and the dull one is fired 6 dasher....you will need to neck turn also.
I forgot the first step is to move the 6.5 CM shoulder back, trim to length, then move it back to close to finish, in steps.l of 30° as 40° shoulders are harder to move without collaspe, so that is why the steps must take place, in shoulder location gradually, and anneal on the last step. Plus remember to neck turn...as I said you can ...but it's much easier to just buy Alpha brass. But if you have the tools, it's not difficult either. And you process a bunch at a time with each progresive step...also check your case volume when done.
Here is how I do it but it's definitely not recommend, unless you can not get any brass...I use Alpha brass for my 6 Dasher...
But 6 dasher can be made out of any 308 based cartridge, even a 30-06 if you care to work at it.
I used LR primer 6.5 CM brass but you can get SR primed 6.5 CM brass.
The shiny one is 6.5 CM and the dull one is fired 6 dasher....you will need to neck turn also.
I forgot the first step is to move the 6.5 CM shoulder back, trim to length, then move it back to close to finish, in steps.l of 30° as 40° shoulders are harder to move without collaspe, so that is why the steps must take place, in shoulder location gradually, and anneal on the last step. Plus remember to neck turn...as I said you can ...but it's much easier to just buy Alpha brass. But if you have the tools, it's not difficult either. And you process a bunch at a time with each progresive step...also check your case volume when done.
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I’ll share my load data:
Barrel: 26”, 7.5 twist MTU contour Bartlein
Chamber: .120” freebore
Bullet: 109 Berger LRHT .02” off the lands
Brass : Alpha OCD
Primer: CCI 450
Powder: 32 gn of RL 15.5 at 98% fill
Velocity: 2860 FPS
On my 8th firing with this current Alpha brass and I anneal with an AMP every time.
Barrel: 26”, 7.5 twist MTU contour Bartlein
Chamber: .120” freebore
Bullet: 109 Berger LRHT .02” off the lands
Brass : Alpha OCD
Primer: CCI 450
Powder: 32 gn of RL 15.5 at 98% fill
Velocity: 2860 FPS
On my 8th firing with this current Alpha brass and I anneal with an AMP every time.
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Need a quick sanity check...
Just finished building my first 6mm Dasher rifle (specs below), and while loading up my first rounds, I confused myself when I got to bullet seating depth. I used a Sinclair Bullet Seating Depth Gauge to figure out where my lands were at, and repeated the measurement on a dummy cartridge (increasing seating depth until the bolt handle drops). Results were within 0.001" of each other, so I trust that I'm in the right neighborhood.
Bullet touching the lands:
Is this normal with the chamber on a Proof Pre-fit? My loaded dummy round looks about right to me.
Virgin Alpha Brass
Berger 105 VLD
Varget (starting at 30.5 gr for break-in)
CCI #450
Impact 737R
Proof Pre-fit 26"
Foundation Centurion
Hawkins M5 DBM
MDT AICS Mags
ZCO 527
Just finished building my first 6mm Dasher rifle (specs below), and while loading up my first rounds, I confused myself when I got to bullet seating depth. I used a Sinclair Bullet Seating Depth Gauge to figure out where my lands were at, and repeated the measurement on a dummy cartridge (increasing seating depth until the bolt handle drops). Results were within 0.001" of each other, so I trust that I'm in the right neighborhood.
Bullet touching the lands:
- CBTO = 1.808"
- COAL = 2.392"
Is this normal with the chamber on a Proof Pre-fit? My loaded dummy round looks about right to me.
Virgin Alpha Brass
Berger 105 VLD
Varget (starting at 30.5 gr for break-in)
CCI #450
Impact 737R
Proof Pre-fit 26"
Foundation Centurion
Hawkins M5 DBM
MDT AICS Mags
ZCO 527
Yep, perfectly normal. My CBTO is usually in the range of 1.79ish with a 104 freebore and low 1.8's with a 130ish freebore. Suspect yours is the latter.
Awesome, thanks. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making a dumbass mistake before loading up a bunch of rounds and heading off to the range that is over 1 hour away.
Where are you seeing 2.44x" COAL published?
...not much bearing surface in the neck loading that long:
Found a couple of diagrams floating around on the interwebs. Not sure I would call any of them "published." Here is one from Peterson Cartridge:
https://www.petersoncartridge.com/media/1513/6mm-dasher.pdf
And 6mmbr includes a diagram for 6 Dasher:
https://www.6mmbr.com/cartridgediagrams.html
Well that's the first it's an anomaly what I would do if it isn't up to chamber maybe run a rent and manson and reamer in there and take it out a little bit what I've been doing is running heavier bullets which make them longer so I welcome a chamber that the bullet is going to go over call because a I have your bullet is harder for the wind to blow and it's better aerodynamics I use a very heavy Palmer barrel I use a very slow powder and I use a very light sugar I'm talking like 8 -9 oz and with the 6 mm creedmoor I've been able to surgically lay my rounds down with about an eighth of an inch moa which coincidentally was the first time I shot the gun now I just got a barrel off of McGowan out in Montana it was supposed to take 12 weeks to make and they did it to me in four I'm putting it on a 1942 Springfield 1903 I got a timney trigger on it I ordered the eight Palmer the gun already was sportorised so I didn't
commit a mortal sin the heavy Palmer the slow powder and a heavy bullet work for me with everything from 3006 to 7 mm mag to create more and the recipes I'm running I don't see
them in the book everybody's using faster powder like varget or or that and I'm just up the gun range killing it me and my buddy got similar firearms and he's getting the same exact results that I'm getting
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Freebore is a smooth section that starts at the end of the chamber (just past the case mouth) and continues up to where the lands start. It's usually just very slightly larger than bullet diameter so a bullet can pass through freely after it leaves the case but before it encounters the lands. A larger freebore number means you can seat your bullets out longer.
I have a .104 reamer and my OAL is like .070+/- shorter than the listings given by a couple different brands. Like an idiot I loaded up a batch and was .040 into the lands, dont be like me. I wound up in the 2.3xx" range OAL on both 107SMK and 108ELDs, I'm going to mess with hunting bullets this week to chase coyotes with. I'll post up what I find.
Anyone tried the 95 SMKs?
Anyone tried the 95 SMKs?
That picture is looking at the case mouth (under the blue dot), and the start of the freebore (at the red arrow, lands would start further right) showing how far that brass can grow before trimming is needed. Also pretty good show of how carbon can build up there….
So freebore is from the arrow to the start of the lands?
Yup, basically. The lands are cut at an angle (the lead), the area prior to that, where they are completely cut away is the freebore.
My own opinion at the shooting these guns 6 millimeter creedmoor 6.5 read more is a modest amount of powder is better than an extreme amount of powder, every time you go to the outer limits with something the accuracy isn't there now to George you may be talking a half an inch or an inch more likely I have but as you start to stretch out that moa increases now the thing is with the 6.5 I was able to get surgical accuracy out of the gun with the 6mm creedmoor I was able to put bullets in the same hole 5 6 7 at a time as long as the gun didn't heat up I used a heavy Palmer barrel I used 500 trifling I used the 175 twist and I used a heavy bullet 153.5 along with a very slow powder essentially when I'm saying is the powder would nut at more towards the end of the barrel then early in the barrel varget it's a good powder but what I found is running the barrel running a twist running the length I was able to use a slow powder and a real heavy bullet and a long-ass barrel 28 or better and get accuracy that was phenomenal now what I'm going to try to do is this I know the six five shoots fantastic I know the 6 mm creedmoor shoots fantastic, then why would not 6 mm Dasher fitted with a David tubs bullet 115 Gr out of a 28 inch barrel heavy Palmer with a slow powder not shoot lights out?
This right here is a 6mm creedmoor ladder test the top bullets are David tubbs 115 that's been coated in boron nitride the bottom for bullets are I think it was like 38.3 or something grains of bit of vitavouri 568 non-coated 115s approximately 100 and 20 yards walking up 2 g at a time and placing the next bullet right next to the next one I was blown away this was the first time I shot the gun that was new with a new mc gowan barrel that I just got back from Montana that not only would the bullets group like they did with a new barrel brand new barrel spanking ass new that into .2 g increments that this bullet would place right next to the next one touching whether it was a a jacketed bullet or a boron nitron coated bullet go figure maybe what I'm saying with the 6mm Dasher isn't going to work maybe it'll work just fine but what I am saying is it's worked in this 3006 it's worked in the 7mm rem mag and it's worked in those other calibers I believe it's going to work exceptionally and trust me what I have to rat on myself and come back here and eat crow that's what I'm going to do!
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Here’s my velocity ladder for 115 DTACs in 6 dasher with N140. This was shot out a 26” 1:7.5 twist barrel in 55* weather. I saw no pressure signs
I ended up sticking with the 30.5gr charge. This is the same charge weight I use for Varget and the speeds are almost identical.
10rds of N140 at that charge weight gave me an SD of 8 and ES of 28 with an average speed of 2734. I’m hoping that gets a bit better once I replace my chargemaster lite.
While I am here, what G7 BCs are people using for DTACs at dasher speeds? I had been using a G7 of .276 from the Geoballastics library. But I seem to consistently be a bit high at longer ranges. A G7 of .300 better aligns with my rifle.
I ended up sticking with the 30.5gr charge. This is the same charge weight I use for Varget and the speeds are almost identical.
10rds of N140 at that charge weight gave me an SD of 8 and ES of 28 with an average speed of 2734. I’m hoping that gets a bit better once I replace my chargemaster lite.
While I am here, what G7 BCs are people using for DTACs at dasher speeds? I had been using a G7 of .276 from the Geoballastics library. But I seem to consistently be a bit high at longer ranges. A G7 of .300 better aligns with my rifle.
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I’ve been shooting Dtacs for many years. The non coated/non nose ring version. I’ve always used a G7 of .296 and it’s worked well.
Anyone have/want to sell 100qty Dtacs so I can try them out? Got a new rig and want to give them a run again without buying 500 at a time!
Find a buddy and split $500 of them they shoot perfectly in my six creedmoor surgical I'm going to be putting them in my six Dasher and I'm sure they'll be surgical
Don't be a jackwad man go on Evelyn wood site and vagina log about English grammar this is a shooting site the men who want to shoot better maybe you need a a position at a language workshop!
I have tried the 115 DTAC coated in my 6 Dasher, with a bunch of different powders, a little over 2800fps to 3044 fps they are basically accurate, with a variety of powders.
I tend to shoot the 110 gr SMK at 3085 fps, I believe they have a higher BC.
I tend to shoot the 110 gr SMK at 3085 fps, I believe they have a higher BC.
Even with a very long barrel I would not recommend shooting at those upper speed ranges. Way over pressure.
The the charts for the 6 mm Dasher are not as complete as we'd like them to be so consequently pressure numbers and powder consistencies it's not as prevalent as say a 7 mm mag or 65 creedmoor and the number so sometimes you're sticking your foot in the water to test how warm it is and I agree that I have your bullet with a longer barrel and they build you up more pressure that's why I've been using slower powders slower patterns will nut not longer down the barrel then fast stuff say bargain and faster even superformance is a good powder to use with that but something slower for sure but on the other hand you can get great accuracy with these bullets so walking it up and using a chronograph is the only safe Way of approaching that situation
Quickload puts those loads at right around 70k PSI if you have a 30" barrel, closer to 75k PSI if you are using a 26" barrel.
I've shot 115's and 110's and pushed speed too, it's certainly possible and Lapua/Alpha brass is tough stuff and isn't necessarily going to blow up. It's still way over pressure, you'll lose primer pockets, it won't run well in dusty or rainy conditions, and the brass won't hold up.
I don't mind if someone wants to do that if they feel comfortable and are informed. Just don't want the average reader to scroll through this thread and think that's a safe and attainable speed with those bullets.
I've shot 115's and 110's and pushed speed too, it's certainly possible and Lapua/Alpha brass is tough stuff and isn't necessarily going to blow up. It's still way over pressure, you'll lose primer pockets, it won't run well in dusty or rainy conditions, and the brass won't hold up.
I don't mind if someone wants to do that if they feel comfortable and are informed. Just don't want the average reader to scroll through this thread and think that's a safe and attainable speed with those bullets.
I have Quickoad ... So how would you know?
It's only a guesstimate.
The bullets coated?
You don't have the actual case capacity.
You don't have the powder used.
Plus Alpha brass will handle 70,000 psi.
And the 6 Dasher operates at 65,000 psi.
A lot of variables not even considered, in your erroneous statement.
Others have done so with different powders....it's up to the individual as to what accuracy, velocity combination is right for their 6 mm Dasher, to decide for themselves.
I rarely run less than 2950 to 3020 with Berger 108 target loads that shoot tiny groups.
I'm running a Bartlein 5 R 7.5 twist 28" M24 profile, chambered by me, with my own reamer.
So a new barrel can be ready to go in one day.
The 110 gr SMK at 3085 fps is an excellent LR load in my 6 Dasher, fast and accurate. So I'll continue to use it.
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