75 Degree Bolts are landing

[Lowlight]

I noticed both Defiance and Impact have new bolts, maybe they didn't like when I said nobody needs a 2 lug 90 degree action for more than $1500 in 2024 moving forwared

I like you can get a bolt vs a new action though, smart.

It's crazy that it took these guys this long to go better than 90...

 

[oldrifleman]

Still waiting on a 223 from Impact

 

[MK20]

I noticed both Defiance and Impact have new bolts, maybe they didn't like when I said nobody needs a 2 lug 90 degree action for more than $1500 in 2024 moving forwared

I like you can get a bolt vs a new action though, smart.
View attachment 8514050

It's crazy that it took these guys this long to go better than 90...

It looks like someone still shoots in MOA, though.

 

[Lowlight]

You mean the hunters ? for sure

 

[TEUFEL820]

IMO Defiance lost a lot of customers when they priced themselves out of the market when they got bought out. Time will tell!

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Wasn’t impressed with the 75* throw on the impact. Didn’t think it made any improvements for my shooting over the 90

 

[oldrifleman]

Wasn’t impressed with the 75* throw on the impact. Didn’t think it made any improvements for my shooting over the 90

I like them on mine, my daughter has a clearance problem on hers and needed one, want one on my 223 project.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

I like them on mine, my daughter has a clearance problem on hers and needed one, want one on my 223 project.

For a clearance issue no doubt I could see it being worth it

 

[lash]

IMO Defiance lost a lot of customers when they priced themselves out of the market when they got bought out. Time will tell!

You missed the big Defiance sale last month. They were literally blowing out their whole Inventory at insane prices. Actions mostly under $1000. I think we may see a new model from them. Could be wrong, but…

 

[oldrifleman]

Wasn’t impressed with the 75* throw on the impact. Didn’t think it made any improvements for my shooting over the 90

My son agrees with you and kept the 90deg on his.

 

[wind gypsy]

I never had clearance issues, especially with gamer gun optic mount heights. I think I’d rather have a lighter bolt lift than 75 degrees but am not sold either way.

 

[kthomas]

I'm admittedly a 90° fan. Never really saw the hype with the shorter throw stuff, but I get why that would be to some people's preferences.

Cool to see more options opening up. It seems like a few companies are starting to offer 75° as an option. Could be a nice middle ground between 60° and 90°.

 

[Kadams1563]

I have all traditional 90 degree actions but I just got a Vudoo 360 and when compared to my V22 90 degree I like the 360 more.

I also like the throw on the CDG but I’d have to play with a 75 degree impact before I went all in buying bolts for all my actions.

 

[Turbwhistle]

I called today to inquire about buying a bolt.

It is $495 for the bolt without nitride. And around $570 with nitride for a short artion 308 bolt for a ruckus, and they recommend sending your action in.

I do not think it is quite worth it. I’d rather pick up another action. In my opinion.

 

[rijndael]

I do not think it is quite worth it. I’d rather pick up another action. In my opinion.

That's where I'm at. I can equally appreciate a lighter bolt lift vs 75 degree, plus this "upgrade" is going to cost about 1/2 an action. If I have to ship the action too? It's just adding to something that's already too expensive.

 

[oldrifleman]

At least on Impact, the bolt are totally interchangeable and no fitting required. And bolts are 465 vs 1450 for an action so about a third.

 

[rijndael]

I suspect they're interchangeable on the Defiance too, they just want to confirm things, just like how they won't publish a tenon print.

I can mix and match my 3 bolts and the headspace doesn't change.

 

[NateVA]

I think it's cool to have options so that's nice. Not sure how useful it is unless someone is mounting their scope low, which is something I think fewer people are doing now.

 

[oldrifleman]

I find it to be smoother for my natural action, my daughter needs a throw lever on her ZCO and the 90 deg causes an interference between the bolt knob and the throw lever.

 

[Eric Stecker EG]

Need to clear up a few misconceptions.

Regarding Defiance pricing, you need to take a fresh look at our webstore at https://defiancemachine.com/product-category/actions/
You'll see that our prices have been modified over time and are more consistent with our competitors than some believe. I've admitted publicly on Frank's podcast that I made a mistake on pricing when we took over.

We've learned much more about the operation and have made several efficiency gains. We have adjusted our prices accordingly. Defiance being way overpriced with $500? increase is fake news today. The action that was increased is discontinued and the replacement is available for roughly $50 more than the original Tenacity was before we took over.

Regarding the performance of the 90 degree vs. 75 degree, there is roughly 25% more force needed to open a 75 degree bolt as compared to a 90 degree bolt. We know we are not the first action brand to this party, but customers were asking, and we are actively listening so here we are.

We don't regard it as a superior alternative but rather an option for those who want it. Low scope rings for weight savings, transition from a 3 lug to 2 lug (more similar than a 90 degree), bolt run style allowing room for gloves or bigger fingers, things like that. With Defiance you get the highest quality options. This is one more.

Regarding sending in the action to get a bolt, you do not need to send in your action. The 75 degree bolts will drop right in. Our customer service people offer that for optimal results, send us your action and we can guarantee with absolute certainty that everything will work perfectly.

We have been making A LOT of actions for 15 years. There are many Defiance actions out in the world and we prefer to make sure that everything is perfect. If you buy a bolt for your Defiance and drop it right in, you won't be disappointed. We are extending the offer as a part of our strong customer support. You can choose either.

-Eric

 

[lash]

Need to clear up a few misconceptions.

Regarding Defiance pricing, you need to take a fresh look at our webstore at https://defiancemachine.com/product-category/actions/
You'll see that our prices have been modified over time and are more consistent with our competitors than some believe. I've admitted publicly on Frank's podcast that I made a mistake on pricing when we took over.

We've learned much more about the operation and have made several efficiency gains. We have adjusted our prices accordingly. Defiance being way overpriced with $500? increase is fake news today. The action that was increased is discontinued and the replacement is available for roughly $50 more than the original Tenacity was before we took over.

Regarding the performance of the 90 degree vs. 75 degree, there is roughly 25% more force needed to open a 75 degree bolt as compared to a 90 degree bolt. We know we are not the first action brand to this party, but customers were asking, and we are actively listening so here we are.

We don't regard it as a superior alternative but rather an option for those who want it. Low scope rings for weight savings, transition from a 3 lug to 2 lug (more similar than a 90 degree), bolt run style allowing room for gloves or bigger fingers, things like that. With Defiance you get the highest quality options. This is one more.

Regarding sending in the action to get a bolt, you do not need to send in your action. The 75 degree bolts will drop right in. Our customer service people offer that for optimal results, send us your action and we can guarantee with absolute certainty that everything will work perfectly.

We have been making A LOT of actions for 15 years. There are many Defiance actions out in the world and we prefer to make sure that everything is perfect. If you buy a bolt for your Defiance and drop it right in, you won't be disappointed. We are extending the offer as a part of our strong customer support. You can choose either.

-Eric

Good reply.

 

[Kadams1563]

Admittedly I have not looked at defiance since they took over and prices were straight up insane. Lol.

I had a DLC deviant that I shouldn’t have sold but when I could get an impact cheaper I never looked back.

If prices have been adjusted I’ll give them a look again.

 

[BigPrince]

I called today to inquire about buying a bolt.

It is $495 for the bolt without nitride. And around $570 with nitride for a short artion 308 bolt for a ruckus, and they recommend sending your action in.

I do not think it is quite worth it. I’d rather pick up another action. In my opinion.

With you on this. For almost 600 I can spend a couple hundred more and just get another action from someone else.

 

[Eric Stecker EG]

With you on this. For almost 600 I can spend a couple hundred more and just get another action from someone else.

Defiance is not the least expensive action. If cost is the important factor, then there are many less expensive options. The difference is something you feel and experience. You can't buy an action for $800 retail that works like a Defiance.

I watched an action that cost nearly the same as Defiance break a firing pin at the end of the PRS Finale. I heard someone tell the shooter, "Did you put a new firing pin in before the match?" The shooter said no. The friend replied, "I do that for every big match." He shoots that same brand.

It is not common practice to change out firing pins before a big match with Defiance. Buy once, cry once.

The benefit to the slight difference in comparable prices is nothing compared to the experience of working a Defiance and not having any issues.

-Eric

 

[Turbwhistle]

Defiance is not the least expensive action. If cost is the important factor, then there are many less expensive options. The difference is something you feel and experience. You can't buy an action for $800 retail that works like a Defiance.

I watched an action that cost nearly the same as Defiance break a firing pin at the end of the PRS Finale. I heard someone tell the shooter, "Did you put a new firing pin in before the match?" The shooter said no. The friend replied, "I do that for every big match." He shoots that same brand.

It is not common practice to change out firing pins before a big match with Defiance. Buy once, cry once.

The benefit to the slight difference in comparable prices is nothing compared to the experience of working a Defiance and not having any issues.

-Eric

My point wasn’t that the action is to expensive, but simply that i’d rather buy an entire action then spend the $600 for just a bolt for the action i already have.

I have been running a defiance action in competitions for 3-4 years now with not a single bad thing to say. Mine has ran flawlessly, and when i went to buy another action i thought very hard about another defiance but the draw of impacts and their new 75degree bolt made me go that route. I’ll probably buy another defiance with the 75degree bolt at some point though.

 

[rijndael]

i’d rather buy an entire action then spend the $600 for just a bolt for the action i already have.

Same. I bought a Defiance Classic for $850.

 

[Eric Stecker EG]

Same. I bought a Defiance Classic for $850.

For the sake of clarification, I get the impression we are on the same page. The lowest "retail" price for a Defiance is $990 (Classic). There is an old logo Outcast (muzzleloader) on our webstore listed for $795 but it is 40% off. https://defiancemachine.com/product/outcast-x/

All the old logo actions are being cleared for 40% off. We thought they were all gone but we found a few more.

We did not make the 75 degree bolt with the expectation that many people wanted just the bolt. The vast majority who already had a Defiance are happy with the performance of their 90 degree. The 75 degree bolt just adds an option.

-Eric

 

[rijndael]

I get the impression we are on the same page.

We are, I'm not hostile to Defiance. I have 3 actions: Ruckus, Classic and Tenacity. I'm happy with them, but I do wish the new bolts were cheaper. I think everything is too expensive these days, so I'm used to it.

 

[Harman117]

Add Kelbly's to the list that offer 75 degree bolts now. Should also be swappable for your existing action. ATLAS Tac, Prometheus, etc.

 

[carbonbased]

I’m kinda curious about the 75° BAT Hammerhead. I had to call to get the lowdown on how it was different than their other actions. Then I lost my notes lol.

 

[Baron23]

Need to clear up a few misconceptions.

Regarding Defiance pricing, you need to take a fresh look at our webstore at https://defiancemachine.com/product-category/actions/
You'll see that our prices have been modified over time and are more consistent with our competitors than some believe. I've admitted publicly on Frank's podcast that I made a mistake on pricing when we took over.

We've learned much more about the operation and have made several efficiency gains. We have adjusted our prices accordingly. Defiance being way overpriced with $500? increase is fake news today. The action that was increased is discontinued and the replacement is available for roughly $50 more than the original Tenacity was before we took over.

Regarding the performance of the 90 degree vs. 75 degree, there is roughly 25% more force needed to open a 75 degree bolt as compared to a 90 degree bolt. We know we are not the first action brand to this party, but customers were asking, and we are actively listening so here we are.

We don't regard it as a superior alternative but rather an option for those who want it. Low scope rings for weight savings, transition from a 3 lug to 2 lug (more similar than a 90 degree), bolt run style allowing room for gloves or bigger fingers, things like that. With Defiance you get the highest quality options. This is one more.

Regarding sending in the action to get a bolt, you do not need to send in your action. The 75 degree bolts will drop right in. Our customer service people offer that for optimal results, send us your action and we can guarantee with absolute certainty that everything will work perfectly.

We have been making A LOT of actions for 15 years. There are many Defiance actions out in the world and we prefer to make sure that everything is perfect. If you buy a bolt for your Defiance and drop it right in, you won't be disappointed. We are extending the offer as a part of our strong customer support. You can choose either.

-Eric

HI Eric - I have a Deviant and I'm absolutely, totally, perfectly happy with it. Great action.

As for your admitted mistake with the initial price increases, as I'm sure you are aware it takes years to solidity a reputation and build customer relationships but they can be destroyed in almost an instant.

Hang in there and, as you also alluded to, stay competitive with the industry's features and pricing and I believe that over time you will recover the momentum you lost by your initial actions.

Cheers

 

[carbonbased]

I’m kinda curious about the 75° BAT Hammerhead. I had to call to get the lowdown on how it was different than their other actions. Then I lost my notes lol.

Ok found the notes:

​	TR​	HAMMERHEAD​
Throw	90°	75°
Misc	trigger hanger	no hanger, slightly shorter lateral bolt throw
Feel/cock	Coc	Coc
Prefits	Yes	Yes
Stops AICS bag bump	No	Yes

Also: TR barrels fit only the TR. Other BAT barrels fit all of the other BATs.

Edit–also have some note that says: “Hammerhead has larger pin diameter.”

Hmmm wtf was I referring to? Seems odd if it’s about a firing pin.

Anyway, there you have it.

 

[TorF]

Just for reference.
This is a Husqvarna 1900 sporter moving target and field target competition rifle from 1968.
It has a 70 deg twin lug bolt and reduced length fireing pin strike compared to the 90deg regular production 1900 hunting rifles.
Bolt throw is adapted to cartridge length, and with short rounds in a long action, this thing is smoother than a Krag.

 

[carbonbased]

Just for reference.
This is a Husqvarna 1900 sporter moving target and field target competition rifle from 1968.
It has a 70 deg twin lug bolt and reduced length fireing pin strike compared to the 90deg regular production 1900 hunting rifles.
Bolt throw is adapted to cartridge length, and with short rounds in a long action, this thing is smoother than a Krag.

View attachment 8528576

Sweet! Where’s the chainsaw attachment? Lol

But seriously, sweet rifle.

 

[Baron23]

Ok found the notes:

​	TR​	HAMMERHEAD​
Throw	90°	75°
Misc	trigger hanger	no hanger, slightly shorter lateral bolt throw
Feel/cock	Coc	Coc
Prefits	Yes	Yes
Stops AICS bag bump	No	Yes

Also: TR barrels fit only the TR. Other BAT barrels fit all of the other BATs.

Edit–also have some note that says: “Hammerhead has larger pin diameter.”

Hmmm wtf was I referring to? Seems odd if it’s about a firing pin.

Anyway, there you have it.

WTF is AICS bag bump?

 

[ohiofarmer]

WTF is AICS bag bump?

I’d never heard it called that but it’s when an AICS has room to “over insert” into an AW cut.

 

[Baron23]

I’d never heard it called that but it’s when an AICS has room to “over insert” into an AW cut.

Ah, thanks.

 

[Eric Stecker EG]

I just recently heard that Hornady is launching a line of bullets that are being deliberately promoted as exact copies of the Berger Hybrid bullets (something I know a lot about). They say they are doing it because of supply issues (something else I know a lot about). I bring this up in this thread because I recently find myself engaged in a lot of conversations about things being copied and things being new. When it comes to firearms, there is not much new under the sun (as TorF points out).

Defiance is asked on a regular basis to come up with the "next new thing" (usually by a rifle builder who wants to shake up the market and there is no shortage of those). No one knows what specifically to ask for (or it would exist already) except to refer to it as the "next new thing".

I can assure you; we'd love to make the next hot new thing, and our radar is up, seeking it. However, how many ways can you change how to make a tube with a hole through it that ultimately does one thing? For now, Defiance is hyper focused on making what people are regularly asking for and making it well.

You will see some more "new" things coming out from Defiance in the near future that you have seen versions of before. These additions to the Defiance line will be our versions, made as well as we possibly can. Our goal isn't to put other versions of the same or similar thing down but rather to offer solid, high-quality, customer requested options from which everyone can freely choose.

For what it is worth, I shot short range benchrest for over 20 years. I did well enough to have a highly cherished set of coasters in my living room among other successes. The only actions I used, every time I pulled the trigger at a BR match, were 2 Kelbly Pandas (1 for LV 1 for HV). I still have both actions and regard them as top shooters if I ever get back into BR again.

One last story, I overheard a custom action maker saying they were pissed because another custom action maker copied their action features. A wise old timer nearby chuckled and asked, "What part of your action are you mad about them copying? The Remington part or the Mauser part?"

-Eric

 

[carbonbased]

I’d never heard it called that but it’s when an AICS has room to “over insert” into an AW cut.

I thought it’s when an AICS mag (in an AICS-only cut) malfunctions when the mag body is pressed up against a shooting bag or prop. Like when the rifle is slid forward.

Maybe it’s also (or only?) the AW cut thing described above.

 

[GenericBadGuy]

I just recently heard that Hornady is launching a line of bullets that are being deliberately promoted as exact copies of the Berger Hybrid bullets (something I know a lot about). They say they are doing it because of supply issues (something else I know a lot about). I bring this up in this thread because I recently find myself engaged in a lot of conversations about things being copied and things being new. When it comes to firearms, there is not much new under the sun (as TorF points out).

Defiance is asked on a regular basis to come up with the "next new thing" (usually by a rifle builder who wants to shake up the market and there is no shortage of those). No one knows what specifically to ask for (or it would exist already) except to refer to it as the "next new thing".

I can assure you; we'd love to make the next hot new thing, and our radar is up, seeking it. However, how many ways can you change how to make a tube with a hole through it that ultimately does one thing? For now, Defiance is hyper focused on making what people are regularly asking for and making it well.

You will see some more "new" things coming out from Defiance in the near future that you have seen versions of before. These additions to the Defiance line will be our versions, made as well as we possibly can. Our goal isn't to put other versions of the same or similar thing down but rather to offer solid, high-quality, customer requested options from which everyone can freely choose.

For what it is worth, I shot short range benchrest for over 20 years. I did well enough to have a highly cherished set of coasters in my living room among other successes. The only actions I used, every time I pulled the trigger at a BR match, were 2 Kelbly Pandas (1 for LV 1 for HV). I still have both actions and regard them as top shooters if I ever get back into BR again.

One last story, I overheard a custom action maker saying they were pissed because another custom action maker copied their action features. A wise old timer nearby chuckled and asked, "What part of your action are you mad about them copying? The Remington part or the Mauser part?"

-Eric

Eric,

Appreciate that point about reinventing the wheel. Reminds when Kevin B. from Q was on here talking up the Fix.

One thing that a few customers like I are really interested in is Ionbond DLC coating. If that could be an option again that would be amazing. I really missed the polished dlc versions Defiance used to sell.

 

[Kadams1563]

Eric,

Appreciate that point about reinventing the wheel. Reminds when Kevin B. from Q was on here talking up the Fix.

One thing that a few customers like I are really interested in is Ionbond DLC coating. If that could be an option again that would be amazing. I really missed the polished dlc versions Defiance used to sell.

CN you buy the DLC defiance from Bugholes still?

Mine that I shouldn’t have sold would pick up and feed my 6.5 creed so smooth that you couldn’t tell if there was a round in the chamber at times.

 

[GenericBadGuy]

CN you buy the DLC defiance from Bugholes still?

Mine that I shouldn’t have sold would pick up and feed my 6.5 creed so smooth that you couldn’t tell if there was a round in the chamber at times.

Yes, the Defiance Ti X is still availble with a dlc coating. That is closer to PVD though.

Ionbond is a harder, more wear resistant DLC product. That's why I ask. I had an action done in it and I unfortunately sold it. That was a mistake.

 

[Eric Stecker EG]

Defiance is coating all titanium actions in DLC. Since we started making the titanium action and coating them in DLC, we've seen a rise in requests for DLC. I spoke with Chad (Defiance GM) and he is going to dig back into expanding DLC as an option for Defiance actions. He will also explore the option for ionbond DLC.

Based on customer requests, we will work to make it an option for any action. When this service was offered in the past, it was expensive and took a long time. If people want it, we will work on making it available. These processes are outside our control, but we can arrange to find quality vendors. Check back with us in a few weeks if you want something coated.

I'll add that currently Defiance offers nitride as an option (not standard) because many shooters like the metal look on the non-coated actions. We don't automatically put it on every action. This is a practice that some brands utilize to conceal tool marks. Part of the premium quality you get from Defiance is you won't find tool marks that need to be covered. Then nitride becomes a functional choice rather than just a cosmetic one.

-Eric

 

[GenericBadGuy]

Defiance is coating all titanium actions in DLC. Since we started making the titanium action and coating them in DLC, we've seen a rise in requests for DLC. I spoke with Chad (Defiance GM) and he is going to dig back into expanding DLC as an option for Defiance actions. He will also explore the option for ionbond DLC.

Based on customer requests, we will work to make it an option for any action. When this service was offered in the past, it was expensive and took a long time. If people want it, we will work on making it available. These processes are outside our control, but we can arrange to find quality vendors. Check back with us in a few weeks if you want something coated.

I'll add that currently Defiance offers nitride as an option (not standard) because many shooters like the metal look on the non-coated actions. We don't automatically put it on every action. This is a practice that some brands utilize to conceal tool marks. Part of the premium quality you get from Defiance is you won't find tool marks that need to be covered. Then nitride becomes a functional choice rather than just a cosmetic one.

-Eric

I appreciate your willingness to be open to that service. I would be willing to wait and pay more for Ionbond hands down. That to me is one of the best coatings/processes out there. I also appreciate your polishing process straight from your factory.

I have physically been to the company you partnered with on the Ti-X and had two of my current Defiance actions done. Andy mentioned to me that they had ordered machinery to do Ionbond type coating but their supplier for that better process machinery basically wasn't delivering.

 

[Ian A. Kelbly]

Just was reading this post and wanted to say a few things about BlackNitride. BlackNitride does not hide tool marks, if anything it highlights imperfections. You must properly finish an action before the nitriding process (we use hand sanding and media blasting to even the surface finish with minimal dimensional change of the exterior of the action, and no effect to the threads or lug abatements). Some companies use burnishing to achieve that finish, as well as polished finishes.
We use BlackNitride as a function for our receivers (added surface hardness, lubricity, and corrosion/rust resistance). We feel that for the money our customers spend on actions and the goal of making a lifetime product, BlackNitride is the best finish to achieve that goal.

 

[GenericBadGuy]

Just was reading this post and wanted to say a few things about BlackNitride. BlackNitride does not hide tool marks, if anything it highlights imperfections. You must properly finish an action before the nitriding process (we use hand sanding and media blasting to even the surface finish with minimal dimensional change of the exterior of the action, and no effect to the threads or lug abatements). Some companies use burnishing to achieve that finish, as well as polished finishes.
We use BlackNitride as a function for our receivers (added surface hardness, lubricity, and corrosion/rust resistance). We feel that for the money our customers spend on actions and the goal of making a lifetime product, BlackNitride is the best finish to achieve that goal.

Yeah, yeah nitride is overated. I'm not buying a nitrided high end 2011 or DT11 just like I'm not interested in yet another nitrided custom bolt action.

 

[oldrifleman]

Yeah, yeah nitride is overated. I'm not buying a nitrided high end 2011 or DT11 just like I'm not interested in yet another nitrided custom bolt action.

Yeah yeah, Whatever, others like it big deal dude

 

[GenericBadGuy]

Yeah yeah, Whatever, others like it big deal dude

I'm fine with that. We got boatloads of nitride options for you. Help me out here give me some more options.

 

[jthor]

Impact specifically made the 75 degree bolt for clearing thermal optics. Its audience is for hunting rather than competition.

 

[Terry Cross]

Defiance is coating all titanium actions in DLC. Since we started making the titanium action and coating them in DLC, we've seen a rise in requests for DLC. I spoke with Chad (Defiance GM) and he is going to dig back into expanding DLC as an option for Defiance actions. He will also explore the option for ionbond DLC.

For the last 10 years, I have been sending anything that moves to IonBond for their TB41 / Decobond 41.
Bolt bodies, extractors, firing pins and cocking pieces. The performance of this coating has been exceptional.