8.6 BLK, The Caliber For Advanced Years.

#201
308pirate said:
One of the most stunningly stupid things I have ever heard here, or anywhere else.
Click to expand...
You understand the energy of linear velocity. You have to stop the spinning as well. The idea of there being a difference of said energy has never been a thing because there was not a significant difference. 1:3 twist makes it obvious.
If I were smart, I would be talking everyone out of 8.6 to quell the customer competition.
 
#202
Judcargile said:
You understand the energy of linear velocity. You have to stop the spinning as well. The idea of there being a difference of said energy has never been a thing because there was not a significant difference. 1:3 twist makes it obvious.
If I were smart, I would be talking everyone out of 8.6 to quell the customer competition.
Click to expand...

Tell me how much rotational energy gain there is on a 190gr .308 bullet going from 1:8 to 1:3 at 1050fps... Or a 300gr .338 projectile?

Also, do you think that energy is free? Not going to heat the barrel up faster, not going to rob kinetic energy from the powder?

How much more susceptible are projectiles to core/jacket failures?

Next, what do you think the effect of nearly tripling the rotational velocity does to jacket petals once they hit medium (10% FBI Gel, for example)?

Tag-along to that last one; How is a projectile going to transmit that rotational energy once the jacket petals are ripped off?

eta: Tag-along 1.5; Ever consider the negative effects of a wound channel from a bullet losing its petals?

Tag-along 2; Pretending the jacket petals don't rip off, what significant change is there to the wound channel with a faster twist rate?
 
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#206
Judcargile said:
You understand the energy of linear velocity. You have to stop the spinning as well. The idea of there being a difference of said energy has never been a thing because there was not a significant difference. 1:3 twist makes it obvious.
If I were smart, I would be talking everyone out of 8.6 to quell the customer competition.
Click to expand...
You're still an ignoramus and a walking display of Dunning-Kruger
 
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#211
16347871835866143671612536024376.jpg


That's as far as it goes.
Bolt wont even reach the lugs and you can still see the base of the case.

Where do you fuckers come from?
 
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#215
So who has actually done the math on rotational energy of a 8.6 sub from a 1:3 barrel? It appears to be trivial - about 5% of the bullet's translational kinetic energy, depending upon a number of factors such as the bullet's mass and profile. So can we stop talking about this as if it's some sort of fuckin' magic?
 
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#216
 
#219
E. Bryant said:
So who has actually done the math on rotational energy of a 8.6 sub from a 1:3 barrel? It appears to be trivial - about 5% of the bullet's translational kinetic energy, depending upon a number of factors such as the bullet's mass and profile. So can we stop talking about this as if it's some sort of fuckin' magic?
Click to expand...

It's roughly 20 ft-lb with a 190 .30 cal, and about 50 ft-lb with a .338 .300gr. 4-7%.

What happens, and I saw this first with the sig 1:5" twist blackout guns is that it just destroys the jacket, especially going through various intermediate barriers, and you get extremely limited penetration, inconsistent terminal performance, yada yada. Throws a working system out the window and requires a near-total redesign for 4-7% energy increase. Could have bumped velocity 20fps or added 4-7% bullet mass.

That is all with subsonics... So sure you're spinning subs at 250,000rpm like a normal supersonic rpm range.... Now shoot supers through it. 2300fps @ 1:3 is 552,000rpm.....
 
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#223
Snuby642 said:
Belive what you want I showed you a picture of a 300 blk round I pushed into a 223 barrel.

It didn't chamber.
Click to expand...
So, this can’t happen?

www.thefirearmblog.com

Pictures: 300 Blackout in a 5,56 Barrel 16″

ESG Gunworks LLC is a Class 2 manufacturer formed in 2008 by three police officers.They are located in Texas and specialize in building AR-15 and AR-10 style rifles according to the customer’s needs.One of their customer brought in a rifle made by them, an ESG 5.56 mm where the customer had...
www.thefirearmblog.com www.thefirearmblog.com

or this?

rifleshooter.com

Kaboom!!! 300 BLK in 5.56/223 AR-15!

Some unfortunate shooters have learned the hard way that is is possible to fire a 300BLK in a rifle chambered for 5.56mm or 223 Remington. The results of such a dangerous event are spectacular. In …
rifleshooter.com rifleshooter.com

or this?

www.windhamweaponry.com

Beware .300 Blackout Ammo can be chambered in a 5.56/.223 chamber with catastrophic results. - Windham Weaponry Online. AR-15 Manufacturer

This article is a little different from other gunsmithing tips and procedures. Since I have seen at least 3 returns come in with this problem I think a warning is in order. It can not be stressed enough to match your ammunition to the markings on the barrel! The following are photos of a rifle […]
www.windhamweaponry.com www.windhamweaponry.com

Thank goodness. One less thing to worry about…😒
 
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#224
PMAG 30 AR 300 B GEN M3, 300 BLK

"When using 5.56x45mm mags, the potential to chamber and fire a 300 BLK round in a 5.56x45mm rifle with catastrophic results requires diligent ammunition management by the shooter. The PMAG 30 AR 300 B’s distinct rib design and smoother upper-half texture provides the shooter a distinct visual and tactile difference from any other PMAG to mitigate dangerous cross-loading issues."

@308pirate @Snuby642 👀
 
#225
I tried to chamber a round of Barnes 300 AAC 110gr TAC-TX in the nearest AR I could find (a Larue UU build, if it matters), and it wouldn't go. But that doesn't mean I can claim it to be impossible for all combinations of ammo and chamber to prevent this mistake. Pretty sure that both @308pirate and @Snuby642 know enough about tolerances and their real-world effects to understand why it's impossible to extrapolate a single datapoint so broadly.
 
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#228
hlee said:
So, this can’t happen?

www.thefirearmblog.com

Pictures: 300 Blackout in a 5,56 Barrel 16″

ESG Gunworks LLC is a Class 2 manufacturer formed in 2008 by three police officers.They are located in Texas and specialize in building AR-15 and AR-10 style rifles according to the customer’s needs.One of their customer brought in a rifle made by them, an ESG 5.56 mm where the customer had...
www.thefirearmblog.com www.thefirearmblog.com

or this?

rifleshooter.com

Kaboom!!! 300 BLK in 5.56/223 AR-15!

Some unfortunate shooters have learned the hard way that is is possible to fire a 300BLK in a rifle chambered for 5.56mm or 223 Remington. The results of such a dangerous event are spectacular. In …
rifleshooter.com rifleshooter.com

or this?

www.windhamweaponry.com

Beware .300 Blackout Ammo can be chambered in a 5.56/.223 chamber with catastrophic results. - Windham Weaponry Online. AR-15 Manufacturer

This article is a little different from other gunsmithing tips and procedures. Since I have seen at least 3 returns come in with this problem I think a warning is in order. It can not be stressed enough to match your ammunition to the markings on the barrel! The following are photos of a rifle […]
www.windhamweaponry.com www.windhamweaponry.com

Thank goodness. One less thing to worry about…😒
Click to expand...

How does a cartridge with a 7.62 mm diameter bullet chamber into a rifle with a 5.56 mm throat?
 
#232
Ledzep said:
Tell me how much rotational energy gain there is on a 190gr .308 bullet going from 1:8 to 1:3 at 1050fps... Or a 300gr .338 projectile?

Also, do you think that energy is free? Not going to heat the barrel up faster, not going to rob kinetic energy from the powder?

How much more susceptible are projectiles to core/jacket failures?

Next, what do you think the effect of nearly tripling the rotational velocity does to jacket petals once they hit medium (10% FBI Gel, for example)?

Tag-along to that last one; How is a projectile going to transmit that rotational energy once the jacket petals are ripped off?

eta: Tag-along 1.5; Ever consider the negative effects of a wound channel from a bullet losing its petals?

Tag-along 2; Pretending the jacket petals don't rip off, what significant change is there to the wound channel with a faster twist rate?
Click to expand...
They extrapolate the data from Solidworks.
The twist energy robs from the flash and bang, the propellant makes the heat (obviously) while the faster spin would have more friction, it has not melted a barrel yet.
You MUST use bonded bullets!!!!
 
#235
Judcargile said:
They extrapolate the data from Solidworks.
The twist energy robs from the flash and bang, the propellant makes the heat (obviously) while the faster spin would have more friction, it has not melted a barrel yet.
You MUST use bonded bullets!!!!
Click to expand...

You're missing a few steps post-Solidworks. I know this, because I did a quick model of a bullet in Solidworks this morning, and then actually did the fucking math required to figure out the amount of rotational energy stored in a 300gr .338 bullet with arbitrary ogive and boat tail dimensions moving at 1050 fps from a 1:3 twist barrel. It's not particularly complicated math; a 5th-grader can crunch numbers through the necessary equations if they have a high-school physics student standing over his shoulder to help keep the units consistent.

It's a bit more work than glomming onto whatever claims have been made in random Instagram posts, but it produces better results.
 
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#236
st1650 said:
It’s funny that KB does fine when he copy other people works, yet is unable to make his own project happens. 🤨
Click to expand...
Q LLC was backordered even during the Trump administration. He has a resume that most can only envy. Today's 300BLK has 300BKL bullets. 300 Whisper uses 308 bullets. The longer, heavier subs could never lay parallel to the follower in the 5.56 mag. He answered the request of JSOC to make a replacement for the MP5....because you have to do more than look cool to fight successfully!!!
Hornady has already stuck a run of brass for 8.6. The hurdle regarding the barrels is unfortunate; But, when you make new roads, it takes more work.
What do you shoot? Could you even afford to buy something they make, other than a shirt or mug?
Oxygen thief!!!!
 
#237
E. Bryant said:
You're missing a few steps post-Solidworks. I know this, because I did a quick model of a bullet in Solidworks this morning, and then actually did the fucking math required to figure out the amount of rotational energy stored in a 300gr .338 bullet with arbitrary ogive and boat tail dimensions moving at 1050 fps from a 1:3 twist barrel. It's not particularly complicated math; a 5th-grader can crunch numbers through the necessary equations if they have a high-school physics student standing over his shoulder to help keep the units consistent.

It's a bit more work than glomming onto whatever claims have been made in random Instagram posts, but it produces better results.
Click to expand...
How my ft lbs @ 500 yards?
 
#238
Judcargile said:
Q LLC was backordered even during the Trump administration. He has a resume that most can only envy. Today's 300BLK has 300BKL bullets. 300 Whisper uses 308 bullets. The longer, heavier subs could never lay parallel to the follower in the 5.56 mag. He answered the request of JSOC to make a replacement for the MP5....because you have to do more than look cool to fight successfully!!!
Hornady has already stuck a run of brass for 8.6. The hurdle regarding the barrels is unfortunate; But, when you make new roads, it takes more work.
What do you shoot? Could you even afford to buy something they make, other than a shirt or mug?
Oxygen thief!!!!
Click to expand...
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Just for subsonic, I have 1 desert tech, 1 RimX and a defiance anTI in 12.5” in a MPA ultralite chassis, I promise you I can certainly afford anything from KB. I’ve been in the subsonic game since 2008. I can actually shoot both my DTA 308 with Berger 175 (using VV Tinstar) Lapua 200 (with Trailboss) and my AnTI with Amax 208(N105) and I can do 1 moa at 200 yards with single digit SD/ES. On the hunting side, I have actual experience with LeHigh 174 CF, 194ME and the 190 subX on game. Have you done anything except repeats podcasts talking points ?
 
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#239
st1650 said:
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Just for subsonic, I have 1 desert tech, 1 RimX and a defiance anTI in 12.5” in a MPA ultralite chassis, I promise you I can certainly afford anything from KB. I’ve been in the subsonic game since 2008. I can actually shoot both my DTA 308 with Berger 175 (using VV Tinstar) Lapua 200 (with Trailboss) and my AnTI with Amax 208(N105) and I can do 1 moa at 200 yards with single digit SD/ES. On the hunting side, I have actual experience with LeHigh 174 CF, 194ME and the 190 subX on game. Have you done anything except repeats podcasts talking points ?
Click to expand...
Well, that does impress me.
I have only done subs with pistol.
My only rifle caliber is 308 and it never seemec worth it to load subsonic 308; Now that discreet ballistics has decent sub bullets, if I could find Tinstar, I would try it out.
Energy wise, it makes little sense for me to sub 308, when I have 45acp, although 300blk and 308 will fly better, further.
I just could never get excited enough to support 300blk for what it did; But, when 8.6 does 2x and maybe 3x the job.....I am all in.
 
#245
AMMOWASTER said:
I understand why he rubs people the wrong way but he is pretty consistently successful. He built AAC into a powerhouse and Q seems to be doing great from what I can see.
Click to expand...
He's a successful businessman. No doubts. My observations is that we he tries to actually innovate, he seems not to be as successful as an inventor. As a businessman, I'm sure he'll find a way to be profitable. Also, old AAC had tons tons tons of issue with their products, especially but not limited to their mounts and they wouldn't stand behind their products. Theres a reason Q went with threaded taper mounts and none of those awful ratchet mounts.
But hey, if he can find a magical way to bend physics and give me affordable, accurate long range subsonic with devastating terminal ballistics, I'll be the first one to rebarrel my anTI and my DTA.
To me, true innovation would be a company finding a way to mass produce and sell LeHigh styled bullets for .30$ per ct (instead of 2$ per projo). Hornady SubX was an decent effort but it's clearly more effective on 2 legged critters than 4.
 
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#246
AMMOWASTER said:
I understand why he rubs people the wrong way but he is pretty consistently successful. He built AAC into a powerhouse and Q seems to be doing great from what I can see.
Click to expand...
Robert Silvers made AAC an innovator around 2007-8.

KB was the face and pitch guy.

He sold out.
Went to SIG, got screwed, sued and won.
Q- meh
 
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#247
silentwoods said:
Robert Silvers made AAC an innovator around 2007-8.

KB was the face and pitch guy.

He sold out.
Went to SIG, got screwed, sued and won.
Q- meh
Click to expand...
He sued Sig or you talking about Remington? I don't know as may details as many of you so I just go off what I see. Even on his podcast he talks about his biggest asset is the good people he has working for him. He frequently talks about how having real innovative engineers is what has set them apart.
 
#248
As to the spin making a difference I guess I don't see why that's so hard to believe. I'm not saying it's some huge increase but not everything can be explained by simple math calculations for energy which we know doesn't always translate directly to killing power. Every time I've heard Kevin or the other guys talking about it's always involving the fancy copper bullets like the Lehigh and similar that can take advantage of it. He mentions that he would have done the Blackout the same way if he was doing it from scratch rather than building it for the contract they did which required them to use COTS bullets that won't stand up to a super fast twist. He compared it to a blender and apparently worked on game they've shot with it. Even with all that it seems like what he uses most is some Barnes triple shock variant.
 
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#249
AMMOWASTER said:
He sued Sig or you talking about Remington? I don't know as may details as many of you so I just go off what I see. Even on his podcast he talks about his biggest asset is the good people he has working for him. He frequently talks about how having real innovative engineers is what has set them apart.
Click to expand...
He sued SIG and won. Shady shit in the world of business.

I was on silencer talk back when it was good. I read his blather blaming everyone in the industry for his problems. Hell, Kara was on the site too.

Silvers made AAC.

KB is overrated and literally does nothing new or of value that isn't already proven beforehand.

Overrated .

But he's loaded and has it made so good on him.

Eugene Stoner , Kalishnikov or Browning he is definitely not.
 
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