Pulled (primed) brass is back in stock: https://americanreloading.com/277-fury/3249-277-fury-sig-primed-hybrid-case-100ct.html
A bit spendier now, $82.50/100 shipped.
A bit spendier now, $82.50/100 shipped.
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80,000 PSI capable actions for Sig Fury
- Thread starter Noobilicious
- Start date
this has me literally laughing out loud...
Defiance actions are one peice bolts made from wire edm cut prehardend 4340. 4340 has a Ut of upwards of 160ksi.
They claim their lugs are rated for 120kpsi.
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yield strength is much more important that ultimate tensile when looking at bolt and action body lugs
once it passes yield strength head space can change causing a domino effect in subsequent over pressure situations
most companies use 4140 for the action body and 4340 for the bolt as 4340 is more expensive and 4140 is good enough for the task...rifles are a combination of materials 99% of the time
not sure about this action though, just general information
I agree mostly with what you said. I was using Ut because in my head I was applying the rule of cyclic load (80ksi) being no more than half Ut (160ksi) to get infinite life. I just never got it out of my head and into the post.
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To compare apples to apples we actually need to think about this not in terms of material strength but in terms of force.
Standard bolt lug surface area for both lugs in a R700 style two lugs action is about 0.2in^2
A 308 style cartridge (6 creed, 277 fury etc) base surface area is about 0.169in^2
If we choose a material like 416SS which is weaker than 4340 and has varying material properties based on whether or not it has been tempered/hardened, then we can use the weakest link methodology as the action will be made from the cheaper material than the bolt and give first resulting in lug imprint and sticking.
416SS can have a yield strength from 75kpsi to 138kpsi depending on heat treatment. Based on what defiance says about the bolts/action being rated to 120kpsi I would say that the 416SS is likely tempered to 480DegC-540degC after quench which would put it at 110kpsi-126kpsi to give 10-20% factor of safety.
First lest assume the bottom for hardened 416SS at 75,000psi from being tempered to 700degC. The force that translates to being able to handle with 0.2in^2 lug surface area is around 15,000 lbs of force.
Taking the base surface area for 308 cartridges and applying our round pressure we get 0.169in^2 * 80,000psi = 13520 lbs of force.
Thats just over a 10% factor of safety.
Now assuming the range I think Defiance is hardening to for balancing machinability and yield strength we get
110,000psi*0.2in^2 & 126,000psi*0.2in^2 which is 22,000lbs and 25,200lbs
Taking the 13520lbs of force from our cartridge base into our bolt face from above again that would result in 62% to 86% factor of safety.
Just spit balling some basic math and estimating. Please let me know if Im being retarded somewhere.
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What? They are machined from one piece. You must have a different meaning by forged than I do. Do you mean like press forged or cast like older gun actions like the FAL?
Lol. They get two bolts to a block of material. The bolts are not forged into shape. If your argument is that the raw material came from a forge at SOME point in it's life cycle, then almost everything is forged, but that's not how we use the term forged.
Their bolts are machined from billet. Not forged.
Their bolts are machined from billet. Not forged.
Yes that was my assumption since most custom high end bolts are made this way from one piece billets that are forged and uniform in their treatment. Why do you want a multi piece bolt with press forged lugs? The action is usually weaker material than the lugs anyway like Brian and I were discussing. It will give first. Its cheaper to make. But like my calcs showed...More than enough yield strength. Not trying to piss you off. Just trying to understand what you are looking for.
I don't want a multipiece bolt with press forged lugs. Please refer to my original question and the quoted comment for further clarification.Yes that was my assumption since most custom high end actions are made this way from one piece billets that are forged and uniform in their treatment. Why do you want a multi piece bolt with press forged lugs? The action is usually weaker material than the lugs anyway like Brian and I were discussing. It will give first. Its cheaper to make. But like my calcs showed...More than enough yield strength. Not trying to piss you off. Just trying to understand what you are looking for.
Forged grain structure aligns with the net shape of the part making it stronger. Cold or hot rolled bar is ish forged I guess but not to the final shape. Defiance parts are "billet". The way they are machined makes heat treat distortion non-existant. They don't have the benefits of a forged part. However, I don't think it is necessary with the way they are doing things. I seriously doubt a Defiance bolt the weak link in that system. Your thoughts on the calcs are in the right direction.Yes that was my assumption since most custom high end bolts are made this way from one piece billets that are forged and uniform in their treatment. Why do you want a multi piece bolt with press forged lugs? The action is usually weaker material than the lugs anyway like Brian and I were discussing. It will give first. Its cheaper to make. But like my calcs showed...More than enough yield strength. Not trying to piss you off. Just trying to understand what you are looking for.
Sorry man. I went back and read his post and your question. There is no facial expresion or intent in text so I cant pick up what you mean sorry. Please explain. I would actually like to know what you are looking for.
I'm curious if he knows of any manufacturer actually forging bolt lugs.
That makes sense. Forging steel is not an area where I am strong in experience. I have some metallurgy experience but it is a gap I would like to fill in. Thank you for checking my calcs!
Ha! So you were being sarcastic. I was wondering the same thing. I was so confused.
Well, not really. I'm genuinely intrigued if he knows any, or just doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Read some later posts. Tokay444 and I were confused by a previous statement from someone else.
Also fyi. And yea it doesnt. Was pointing at something else.
Forged vs Cast.......how much better? WHY?
I know we have some very intelligent "GENTS" and "GALS" here that frequent this forum. And yes I understand the concept between Forged vs. Cast. But can someone really lay down the law and tell me WHY the Forged receiver is BETTER than a cast receiver on my Semi-Auto only FAL? IT seems EVERY...
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So what is the order of battle surrounding this .277 Fury?
Ukrainians have backs packs FULL of 52 grain 7n6 Mags. Still not enough to hold back the waves.
How is .277 better?
Is .277 going to revolutionize cqb since WW2?
Sit back at 800m everywhere and snipe?
Sit back at 50m and hope for mecha streisand terminal performance.
I don't understand?
Wouldn't it be better to have a 600 Round M193 loadout? Like fighting human waves in Nam?
How is a 200 round loadout good for the ENTIRE army? Seems like a specialist weapon.
Ukrainians have backs packs FULL of 52 grain 7n6 Mags. Still not enough to hold back the waves.
How is .277 better?
Is .277 going to revolutionize cqb since WW2?
Sit back at 800m everywhere and snipe?
Sit back at 50m and hope for mecha streisand terminal performance.
I don't understand?
Wouldn't it be better to have a 600 Round M193 loadout? Like fighting human waves in Nam?
How is a 200 round loadout good for the ENTIRE army? Seems like a specialist weapon.
I have actually been reloading 277 fury bi-metal cases in standard rifles, a 3 lug and a 2 lug bolt actions.Necking up to 308 win and down to 6.5 Creedmoor. 3 reloadings on the cases primer pockets are still tight. The primers hold up fine... but extrude a bit on the 3 lug.
This is not recommended for the average reloader...it's an obviously dangerous endeavor. Curiosity overwhelmed me, so I continued with the experiment. Checked chambers with a go gauge and shim...still the same. I trim and neck turn all the brass. 308 is easy mandrel up & run through a 308 die. 6 5 Creedmoor is more difficult, intermediate die used to set back shoulder. I shoot heavy bullets and fast twist barrels but tried a normal variety of light bullets in 308 Win ran 155 Palmas at 3182 fps, wrong powder choice ... change powder 168 gr match to 3255 fps, and 200 gr SMK to 2951 fps.
In the 24" total factory 6.5 Creedmoor only the 150 SMK .713 BC was used top velocity was 3056fps but felt a slight stiffness on the bolt so backed off...just over 3000 fps standard deviation single digit nice groups. Have a new Bartlein 26" 5 R barrel ordered for this rifle. So I can abuse this barrel a bit, and check out the action when I rebarrel. The right powders are difficult to obtain..and cases are sometimes available. I like the 277 Fury just like it is, the case is a good design and it's reloadable...even though none of this is recommended by the manufacturer or anyone. Hopefully Sig will get the trigger problem worked out, and aftermarket triggers, barrels etc will be available,... modular, like an AR, plus a host of other bi-metal cased calibers...but the 277 is fine just need some high BC match bullets...or a .30 or 6.5 × 277 bi-metal factory round and a longer barrel for me. Unless I was to go hunting... there is great potential here, magnum performance with less powder and recoil, in standard cases... and at what cost? Will determine the future. Military contracts should lower costs, like the 5.56 & 308.
This is not recommended for the average reloader...it's an obviously dangerous endeavor. Curiosity overwhelmed me, so I continued with the experiment. Checked chambers with a go gauge and shim...still the same. I trim and neck turn all the brass. 308 is easy mandrel up & run through a 308 die. 6 5 Creedmoor is more difficult, intermediate die used to set back shoulder. I shoot heavy bullets and fast twist barrels but tried a normal variety of light bullets in 308 Win ran 155 Palmas at 3182 fps, wrong powder choice ... change powder 168 gr match to 3255 fps, and 200 gr SMK to 2951 fps.
In the 24" total factory 6.5 Creedmoor only the 150 SMK .713 BC was used top velocity was 3056fps but felt a slight stiffness on the bolt so backed off...just over 3000 fps standard deviation single digit nice groups. Have a new Bartlein 26" 5 R barrel ordered for this rifle. So I can abuse this barrel a bit, and check out the action when I rebarrel. The right powders are difficult to obtain..and cases are sometimes available. I like the 277 Fury just like it is, the case is a good design and it's reloadable...even though none of this is recommended by the manufacturer or anyone. Hopefully Sig will get the trigger problem worked out, and aftermarket triggers, barrels etc will be available,... modular, like an AR, plus a host of other bi-metal cased calibers...but the 277 is fine just need some high BC match bullets...or a .30 or 6.5 × 277 bi-metal factory round and a longer barrel for me. Unless I was to go hunting... there is great potential here, magnum performance with less powder and recoil, in standard cases... and at what cost? Will determine the future. Military contracts should lower costs, like the 5.56 & 308.
Yes ...not only that... they need to be gauged for proper head space...and neck turned for consistency as the brass gets thicker half way down the 6.5 Creedmoor case reformed case neck...you do not want any extra pressure adding to the already high pressure cartridge, and no extra head space ...a close but easy to close bolt. These have been very accurate and single digit S/D s ...high pressure burns clean.
But this is an experimental endeavor on my part ...the manufacturers say no to reloading these bi-metal .277 Fury cases even in the .277 Fury..but dies are available...but that might be for the low pressure brass cases...which are ho-hum to me...the cartridge advancement is in the high pressure arena ...but manufacturers need to step up. This is not an endeavor for the average reloader. Common sense says wait for the manufacturers to get on the ball...which doesn't seem to happen much these days. Announce a new product that trickles onto the market at best...some of the powders used are very hard to find...another problem...nothing is common and rare is expensive. It's easier to go to a magnum cartridge for magnum performance for the average guy...if you can get the components...but this bi-metal case maybe be readily available if largely adopted by the military....like the 5.56 or 308 brass case.
Don't use quick load...my shooting buddy does, & has calculated pressure of some of my brass cased reloads...I don't, cause there are volumes of reloading data on 308 and 6 5 Creedmoor, plus all the videos on line like Johnny's Reloading bench, bolt action reloading, ultimate reloader, etc.some pushing the limits if brass cases. All reloading data with measured pressure data is readily available. Look at the linear progression of a powder in measur3d pressure steps with respect to the highest velocity attainable for brass cases. Work up loads in your brass cases...first, for your rifle, slightly higher or lower charge weights for the published data, with a good chronograph...I have blown primers on Hodgdons published annual manual data, in 308 brass cases..the next publication the max powder charge was lowered. Once you establish your brass maximum load, you have a linear idea where the next cut off line is, its liner published pressure data, especially stick powders.
its not linear at all, especially not with the geometry in sig's new bimetals. I'd be curious to know your recipies as I've also been tinkering with ".308 super" as I've come to call it, but my hangup has been not being able to get the bullets I actually want to test.
sending a barnes varmint grenade .308 lightweight at nearly 4,000 fps was fun though. (T/C compass II 22in is my sacrifical testing rifle)
Thanks…
I know how internal pressures work, they are not linear nor is waiting for primer or ejector swipes a reliable measurement.
If your not using piezo or quick load at a minimum you really don’t have a idea of what pressure you are putting the case or action through.
Personally I’d get with you friend of start searching for data.
Blowing up brass at 90k+ is A LOT different that brass letting go at 78k.
I have already achieved the goal with the loads I am using ...the experimentation is done. 3 reloadings on the cases primer pockets still tight, no signs of pressure, no pressure signs on case heads,...zero marks on SS case heads. The 3 lug action is holding up, no movement on headspace gauge...yet. Fireforming a bunch of cases to check longevity of the factory CM hammer forged barrel...which will probably handle the pressure and erosion better the SS barrel of the 308. The settled load is with 6.5 Creedmoor with 150 gr SMK at 3000 fps will be the expendable tool for this personal endeavor. Time and round count will give me information on whether or not to continue with the bimetal case. This endeavor is not recommended for anyone, as manufacturers have already stated...doing so is at your own risk.
Welp, I'm in for some brass. At the very least I'm going to try the 6.5 CM conversion. I'll leave the nuclear testing to 45-90, but the appeal to me is potentially everlasting brass even at max (book) loads. Bolt thrust even at 80 kpsi is less than 300 WSM at SAAMI pressure.
the brass won't last forever since neck tensioning still behaves like normal brass, and the thinning over time will eventually cause a separation closer to the shoulder.
what you will get is the ability to run some projectiles normally intended for 6.5 PRC or increased velocities on normal 6.5CM projectiles.
I'll post a load once I get a chance to test for safety (which should be today) in my ruger precision. aiming for faster velocities on my 140gr ELD-M loads and personally made brass match solids
actually, here's the load data:
Cartridge: 6.5 "super creedmoor"; Cartridge Length 2.830in; PMax 80,000psi; PMax-15% 68,000 PSI
Case: Resized and trimmed sig .277 fury bimetal case; Case length 1.920in; Case capacity H2O 53gr
Primer: CCI large rifle Benchrest, ram primer seated
Projectile: Hornady 140gr ELD-M (PN 26331); seating depth 0.444in; bullet length 1.354in
Powder: Alliant Reloder-17; 45.5gr; 99.2% case fill
Expected Performance: Preal 68,015psi; MV@24in Barrel 2981fps
worth noting this isn't a "test the limits" type load, but a realistic usage load with the usual Pmax-15% safety margin applied for environmentals, etc
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Thanks, yeah some good looking loads possible in the 70k range per GRT.
For what bullets and powders I've got on the shelf:
143 Norma Bondstrike, 22" barrel, 2.92" OAL
CFE-223, 42.8 gr, 92.7% fill, 70271 psi, 2814 fps
IMR 4895, 40.0 gr, 85.5% fill, 68017 psi, 2769 fps
StaBall 6.5, 46.2 gr, 98.9% full, 70293 psi, 2747 fps
129 ABLR, 22" barrel, 2.92" OAL
CFE-223, 44.4 gr, 94.7% fill, 70774 psi, 2967 fps
H4895, 41.7 gr, 88.3% fill, 70589 psi, 2935 fps
8208XBR, 40.7 gr, 92.5% fill, 70830 psi, 2923 fps
For what bullets and powders I've got on the shelf:
143 Norma Bondstrike, 22" barrel, 2.92" OAL
CFE-223, 42.8 gr, 92.7% fill, 70271 psi, 2814 fps
IMR 4895, 40.0 gr, 85.5% fill, 68017 psi, 2769 fps
StaBall 6.5, 46.2 gr, 98.9% full, 70293 psi, 2747 fps
129 ABLR, 22" barrel, 2.92" OAL
CFE-223, 44.4 gr, 94.7% fill, 70774 psi, 2967 fps
H4895, 41.7 gr, 88.3% fill, 70589 psi, 2935 fps
8208XBR, 40.7 gr, 92.5% fill, 70830 psi, 2923 fps
STOP:
I reload the bi-metal 6.8x51 case necked down to 6.5 Creedmoor and have fired a of bunch them with a few powders. So I hsve learned a few things.
Your case capacity is on, I got 53.1 gr
Your powder charge seems EXTREMELY HIGH, for RL-17, which I have not tried in the hybrid 277 Fury...But I have reloaded commercial 6.5 Creedmoor brass cases with RL-17 with 42.1 gr giving around 2850 fps with 140 Nosler RDF 2.875 COAL.This seems past excessive at 45.5 gr. and I would Not do it, plus your COAL is .045" shorter.
Caution:
I find the powder reaction and heat transfer of the powder during ignition is alot different in a Stainless Steel case head, and transfers less heat to SS and threrefore energy to the SS case head and more energy behind the bullet, equals more velocity. Plus little case head expansion than brass equsls smaller case volume upon ignition.
I do NOT give any load data because it's a dangerous endeavor and reloading these cases is not recommended by anyone.
But you have to use some common sense if ya choose to do it. CAUTION it's different,...start use your "Brass" case data and a chronograph, compare, the data... work up slowly. Too much willy-nilly.
I fired it yesterday, my MV was spot on, no pressure signs. yes the powder charge is high for "standard" creedmoor, as it should be, but the pressure doesn't even get anywhere near the PMax of the case.
for the record here, a QL workup that was part of the prep for this:
Also for the record, the possible powder iteration tables sorted by velocity for 140gr loaded to 2.860" COAL:
I take reloading safety very seriously, especially when I am dealing with experimental reloadings of cartridges well outside the norm. I've also reloaded the polymer-cased TV ammo using similar principles, even though that isn't recommended either.
I spent a lot of time with manuals and my chrono making sure my QL results are accurate and not a load of crap with other cartridges before attempting this.
if you want to chase raw velocity, a 123 or 127gr projectile would be better, but I think being able to safely reach MVs that would normally be out of reach with a standard case is an interesting development. I will note that 6.5CM benefited less overall than .308 does from the same approach.
if you want to play really stupid games, 47gr of CFE223 is an 80,000 PSI load, but only gets you ~24fps more on a 24" barrel.
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I'm glad you put much effort into it, and you're OK, panicked cause the load is much higher than I ran in brass cases and I was running a 1/2 gr over max with RL-17 and 2867 fps was the 140 gr velocity. Surprised the velocity gain is not that much with this powder from 42.1 to 45.5 in the bi-metal cases vs brass cases. (I would have started testing at 42 gr for me and work up. I start with the brass load data, works for me plus get cases fire formed. ) That has not been my experience with the powders I'm using. I reload bimetal cases in 308 also. Doing more shooting with the 6.5 Creedmoor to check barrel erosion, than put on a new Bartlein barrel.
Want to give it a good try to see if its for me, and 800 bi- metal cases to use up.
Interesting that 2209 speed powders still seem to do best at higher peak pressures. I thought maybe heavily compressed loads of slower powders might work. Have you tried and mixed/layered loads?
I tend to shy away from compressed loads because they erode the safety margin on account of being less predictable when changing with ambient temperature and pressure, along with being difficult to work with in the first place, as most slower powders aren't a type that compresses well.
Quickload is basically liner it says so...and load manuals powders move basically liner...but not completely. And QL assigns a number to the powder burn rate ...everything is an estimate.
Look at reloading manuals vary 2 or 3 grains as to what is max. No component is exactly the same as the last, powder, primer, case volume, or bullet. Then there is the rifle, none are exactly the same, chamber, tbroat, bore, groove, wear, roughness, plus they are wearing and changing. Nothing can be really calculated as exact pressure, varies with each shot from the same rifle. If you're running a msx load at 65,000 in brass according to a reloading manual, and you add a half or full grain you can usually assume you are at least pushing the pressure limit and why your brass case only last a few reloads ...maybe your up to 70,000 psi already. Since nothing is actually gauging pressure accurately each shot, you are left with physical properties or events to say you are over pressure. And why many manufacturers say their products lose the factory warranty if hand loads are fired in their guns. So it's not hard to guess where the cut off point is...bit it may not be quite as linear as the slight increase in pressure continues, and why you work up from known safe point. Start with your safe max brass load the book says is 65,000 psi, then run it in your bi metal case after you checked water capacity and use the same COAL ..what does the chronograph say the differences are. If the velocities are up the pressure is up and how much gives you a logical idea where you're at. Between 65,000 and 80,000 really isn't that much room, especially if you're closer to 68,000 to 70,000 to begin with, on your "safe brass loads" that alot of reloaders shoot. I find the SS case heads have an effect on the load with the powders I'm using, and believe it to be thermal, as less thermal energy from the burning powder is transferred to the SS case head the heaviest part of the case, and more energy to the base of the bullet. Up to 20% of the powder energy is lost in the brass cases through heat transfer to the brass itself in the form of heat. Plus less case head expansion on firing. Make reloading the SS case heads different and not available in any software program at this time. Over 60 powders were blended up and tested by Saint Marks for the military trials ...none are available to the public, especially the one they settled on. There are at least 4 major contractors working on improving the military small arms cartridges for today's warfare. Much is classified information...but one company rechambered a Remington 700 for the 80,000 psi test cartridges, before going to the autos and machineguns. I thought that information to be interesting. Straight from the manufacturers mouth...they were running SS/ plastic cases with no neck, a 10% smaller case capacity with a lot more velocity, then brass cases. The plastic no neck case connects to the special but mandatory military only bullet at the shoulder..which is very thick plastic and all the powder is funneled directly behind the bullet at the shoulder internally. It was classified as to how much pressure this case could withstand when asked, but its been said to have been tested to at least 100,000 psi. But it definitely did not look reloadable. New things on the horizon, probably invented by AI computers. They had integrated circuits for electronic gagets and secure military servers to communicate with available on the rifle..a smart rifle plus a whole lot more...just be sure to use your pronouns when using this rifle... as AI is right there with you.
the plastic stuff was True Velocity, not sig, and they use a different production method and alloy for the SS case head in those. the only reason TV says the polymer cases they make are not reloadable is neck tension issues (needs lacquer sealant for fully retained tension) but as long as you mimic the sealing process while loading they reload just fine.
personally I’m not surprised at them using an R700, that is a very overbuilt action designed to withstand the pressures and bolt thrust of large magnum cartridges, along with its relative simplicity allows for easy use as a testbed.
Quickload is basically liner is says so...and load manuals powders move basically liner...but not completely. And QL assigns a number to the powder burn rate ...everything is an estimate.
Look at reloading manuals vary 2 or 3 grains as to what is max. No component is exactly the same as the last, powder, primer, case volume, or bullet. Then there is the rifle, none are exactly the same, chamber, tbroat, bore, groove, wear, roughness, plus they are wearing and changing. Nothing can be really calculated as exact pressure, varies with each shot from the same rifle. If you're running a msx load at 65,000 in brass according to a reloading manual, and you add a half or full grain you can usually assume you are at least pushing the pressure limit and why your brass case only last a few reloads ...maybe your up to 70,000 psi already. Since nothing is actually gauging pressure accurately each shot, you are left with physical properties or events to say you are over pressure. And why many manufacturers say their products lose the factory warranty if hand loads are fired in their guns. So it's not hard to guess where the cut off point is...bit it may not be quite as linear as the slight increase in pressure continues, and why you work up from known safe point. Start with your safe max brass load the book says is 65,000 psi, then run it in your bi metal case after you checked water capacity and use the same COAL ..what does the chronograph say the differences are. If the velocities are up the pressure is up and how much gives you a logical idea where you're at. Between 65,000 and 80,000 really isn't that much room, especially if you're closer to 68,000 to 70,000 to begin with, on your "safe brass loads" that alot of reloaders shoot. I find the SS case heads have an effect on the load with the powders I'm using, and believe it to be thermal, as less thermal energy from the burning powder is transferred to the SS case head the heaviest part of the case, and more energy to the base of the bullet. Up to 20% of the powder energy is lost in the brass cases through heat transfer to the brass itself in the form of heat. Plus less case head expansion on firing. Make reloading the SS case heads different and not available in any software program at this time. Over 60 powders were blended up and tested by Saint Marks for the military trials ...none are available to the public, especially the one they settled on. There are at least 4 major contractors working on improving the military small arms cartridges for today's warfare. Much is classified information...but one company rechambered a Remington 700 for the 80,000 psi test cartridges, before going to the autos and machineguns. I thought that information to be interesting. Straight from the manufacturers mouth...they were running SS/ plastic cases with no neck, a 10% smaller case capacity with a lot more velocity, then brass cases. The plastic no neck case connects to the special but mandatory military only bullet at the shoulder..which is very thick plastic and all the powder is funneled directly behind the bullet at the shoulder internally. It was classified as to how much pressure this case could withstand when asked, but its been said to have been tested to at least 100,000 psi. But it definitely did not reloadable. New things on the horizon, probably invented by AI computers. They had integrated circuits for electronic gagets and secure military servers to communicate with available on the rifle..a smart rifle plus a whole lot more...just be sure to use your pronouns when using this rifle... as AI is right there with
Those are two of the contractors who apied for the military contracts, and a very different approach to solve the needs of the military. They claim there are several other contractors involved, but I have no information on them or their innovations, designs, or discoveries, etc. Maybe they failed... maybe it's classified, but no information has come to my attention from the others involved. I find it interesting and maybe a new direction for small arms in the near future.
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