A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

[SPDSNYPR]

I put this another site and thought I'd put it here also for the opinions (to see if they differ).

It was long overdue. My PD has given me some money to pimp out all of our tac team's precision rifles to something a little more user-friendly. We have 6 Rem 700Ps in .308.

The first thing I did was update our ammo. We have been shooting Black Hills .308 BTHP match for as long as I've been there. I wanted something with better terminal ballistics, and we found little zero shift when we tested the BH 168gr AMAX. Just a little tweaking, and the accuracy was very nearly the same (still shooting very decent groups). This year we are completely switching. I am still looking for a good barrier round, and was considering the Speer 168 gr bonded round. Any opinions and experience along with a place it can be found (or a good alternative) appreciated.

Next, the HS stocks were functional, but I didn't like the top-stuffers and wanted a DBM. Turns out to buy a badger system and have it inletted cost about as much as just getting McRee stocks. Since I wanted a better finish than the standard remington rustomatic, I got them unfinished. One of our guys used to do custom car painting, so he's going to cerakote the rifles and stocks for us. I just got this one rebarreled with a shilen #7 countour cut to 20".

We are only rebarreling the one to see if there is any significant gain in accuracy vs the factory bbl (which we are cutting down to 20" on all of them). Oh - and it really looks kinda cool in the white with the the raw stock. Very terminator-ish.

My second question to anyone with cerakote experience - is the air-cure cerakote close durability-wise to the oven-cure stuff? Also, how important is it to sand blast the part first? Should I coat the bolt? Is there anything (except the trigger) that I should avoid coating?

Next is mags. We only got 1 AICS 10-rd mag per rifle. I plan on ordering more immediately. Is there any advantage to having the 5-rounders or should I stick to the 10-rounders? Also, are the Alpha mags worth a crap (they are slightly shorter for 10 rds, a little less expensive), or should I stick with AICS (which can be hard to find). How many mags should I have on hand? I was thinking one mag of the regular duty ammo, and one mag of barrier ammo.

Optics - right now we are straight up Luppy 3.5-10x40 Mk4 mil dot M1. All SFP. I wanted to play with FFP and mil turrets. My admin wanted to stick with Luppy since we have had good luck with them (none have ever had a single problem - yes I just knocked on wood), and the NF FFP mil-mil equivelent is quite a bit more expensive per copy. My concern with the FFP reticle is it becoming small when we dial it down to low power (which is common, since I want to see where everyone is as well as possible, and typically we don't end up that far away from the BG house anyway).

Now this question is just for LE guys - how is your experience with the crosshair issue on FFP scopes? Is it a non-issue that I'm creating in my mind? I'm not unhappy with our optics, but mil/mil and FFP seems to be all the rage, and I can't ignore that it is simpler to not have to convert from MOA to MIL.

Lastly, we switched to all TIS slip-cuff slings and Storm Tactical data books last year, and have been happy with both. We also just bought one Luppy 100yd rangefinder for every two-man team (we only tested the Luppy rx1000 and the outwardly similar Leica 1200 rangefinder, and had much better luck with the luppy - which surprised me).

That's my current project. Any opinions appreciated. And no cans aren't in the budget just yet.

 

[fdkay]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

The reduced reticle size is a non-issue.

I run an IOR 3-18, if I dial down, it resembles a standard duplex cross hair. At the close ranges that you would dial down for, you are not going to be using the mil-dots for hold overs or leads anyway.

I have no experience with the magazines. I may eventually go that route, only because I can keep the mag loaded in the pocket of my bag and quickly load that way.

Let's face it, in an LE scenario you are not going to need the rapid reload capability. Now, the real advantage here is to have at least two mags, one with your AMAX load, the other with your barrier load. You will need to be able to differentiate between the two in low light.

The new version of Alpha Mags has been getting decent reviews as have the C-Products mags. Of courde you will need to verify function with them, I am sure either company will replace a defective mag no questions asked.

There is no need for 10 round magazines, save those for tactical comps or an invasion.

As far as rebarreling goes, if you have the action and bolt face trued, you will see a dramatic improvement in accuracy. Unless of course you have the original 700PSS when they were made in the custom shop (no longer the case).

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

For our three department owned rifles, we are trying to keep them short, light and maneuverable. The rifles are optimized for 300 yards and in, while retaining the capability to engage targets to 800 yards.

They are currently LTR's with 4.5-14x50mm MKIV LR/T. I wasn't consulted on the optic choice and it turns out that most of the guys aren't fond of the high bottom end magnification. It makes those 40 yard deployments a little difficult. The LTR stocks don't fit any of our Snipers. They all now wear some variety of foam/tape/stock pack/etc.

We recently were introduces to a new problem. Through a grant our department acquired numerous PVS-14's and one PVS-22. There is no acceptable way to mount a PVS-22 to the LTR. The MARS and MIRS have been demonstrated to not be durable.

The best solution I found to all of these was the XLR Industries Evolution Chassis. I have one that I am testing and we demo'ed it to the department. All of our Snipers loved it and it will allow for mounting the PVS-22. Additionally all of our guys are cross-trained as entry team members, so we get a lot of trigger time on the M4. The XLR Evolution mimics the ergonomics of the M4 so it feels natural to a carbine shooter.

The XLR also adds an AI based magazine system for fast ammo changes and easy loading/unloading depending on the tactical problem at hand. There is little cost difference between 10 and 5 round AI mags. In a vertical grip layout I don't see any advantage to a five round magazine since the grip usually bottoms out before the magazine. While it's highly unlikely that a callout would require more than a couple rounds, the addition of a ten round magazine has virtually no drawbacks.

Our LTR's are relatively new, so they are not anywhere near barrel replacement. When they do, I will recommend rebarreling with the same length and contour. There is absolutely no need for a telephone pole on a LE Tactical rifle.

Circling back around to the scope issue. FFP in a LE rifle is not a mandatory thing AS LONG as the shooter understands the limitations. I would not have an issue with a low-magnification SFP variable. I prefer a FFP variable, however if you cannot spring for illuminated reticles, then stick with SFP. I have run into issues with a non-illuminated FFP reticle getting lost in the background in low-light situations. I run an illuminated FFP reticle on my work rifle. The drawbacks of the FFP at low-magnification are completely eliminated.

Durability and repeatability are critical and should take precedence over other features. If I had to accept a duplex reticle that was dead reliable over a full-featured "tacticool" with suspect repeatability, then I would be satisfied.

If I was given full choice over optics, I would go with 3x on the bottom, up to 15x on the top, illuminated mil-based reticle, mil-turrets and locking or capped turrets. Those features would manage most of the issues I have encountered on live callouts or in scenarios.

Keep the system as light as you can to still accomplish the task. Yes, LE Snipers don't hump their rifles as far as their military counterparts. However I have had to grab the rifle sprint to a firing position and get what support I could. A heavy rifle means you better be 100% locked on and rested. This is a luxury we don't have when the situation arises at the end of a long shift. Offhand shots DO happen in LE work. They are not something you should try for on a live callout, but you should prepare for them in case it's all you have.

Rangefinders are nice, but last on the list of LE Sniper equipment.

One word of caution. Be VERY, VERY careful what modifications you make to an LE Sniper rifle. Make sure you have your ducks in a row and know how you plan to defend those modifications in court. If you purchase a ready to roll package from a custom gunsmith, he gets to defend it. You just have to defend your choice in gunsmiths. Whoever does the work better have the credentials to show that they were EXPERIENCED in doing what they did.

The only reason I am allowed to work on our rifles is that I have the certifications and experience to back up what I do. I stay in my lane and don't try new stuff on them. I have a safe full of rifles to "play" with when I want to try something new.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

The reason I got the 10-round mags with the stock was simply with the pistol grip on the new stocks, the mags were about the same length. In my pea brain, I was considering 2 ten-round mags per gun loaded with our open-air ammo, and a five-rounder that you could feel in the dark was different for the barrier ammo. I don't expect our guys to burn through 20 rounds shooting bad guys, but shit happens and having a loaded spare available it a good idea.

On the optics - I couldn't agree with Lonewolf more. The low-end needs to be LOW with a wide FOV. Higher manification does me VERY little good at what we do. I get deployed across the street about half the time (like 30 yards away), and the other half I'm on a farm or some rural area and am within 150. I don't ever remember being further than that away from a BG house. I want to have a wide FOV where I can see my rapid response team, gas team, etc. Our leapolds have been nothing if not reliable, and half have the illuminated reticles (which we really don't use very often bc the SFP reticles are so easy to see). Again, I wanted to experiment, they gave me a little money to play with and I'm going to see how it works for us with the FFP M5 turret model. My guess is it won't be worth spending the money to switch.

On the weight - our sniper qual is a high-stress course that is full of running to the next stage and shooting/moving under time. It's physically hard and the minimum score to pass is 100%. So I don't want to weigh our guys down too much, but some heft is good.

The only reason we are cutting the barrels back is maneuverability and ergos. Right now they are just too long, and with no reason for all that length. We only have zeros out to 650 (the furthest we can shoot at our range), and I'm not a big proponent of our guys shootine much past that (when I've gone to ranges out to 800 and 1000, there is a noticable drop off in performance of most people to hit known and unk distance targets past 600). 600 gets us to most places we can see in town, at our university, and in almost all rural areas.

Anyway, thanks for the replies so far - any thoughts or experiences appreciated. Keep them coming. I'm here to learn.

 

[Who Dat]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

We are currently trying to upgrade our Rem 700s to something better. We have demoed the AIs and the Rem LTR in a AICS which is basically the Remington military version M24 A3 AI. You are right when doing the run and gun for a qual having a rifle that is overweight can be tough for some and not for others or to long and it bangs on the ceiling of the BearCat. If you rebuild what you currently have there is quite a bit of cost savings. It would be nice to get a grant from Uncle Sam but they do not do grants for weapons. There is nothing wrong with the second focal plane scopes because we both know in the urban enviroment you will have to open up windows on houses between you and the suspect to get a long range shot unless in an airport setting (Under 100yds is the norm). There is no reason to have a mil dot scope unless you are ranging, most varmint recticules work great due to the fine crosshairs. We use Luppy's also. My personal weapon is a Rem in a AICS 1.5 with a Harris bipod and AccuShot monopod (Weight 16lbs loaded). I learned really fast to hate the bean bag when doing the FBI qual course. All of that running made me hate the thing (Less is more). I also use a biathalon sling for deployment. A lot of other agencies were laughing at me when we started the 440 yard run and the other qual runs; they did not think I could get it off of my back fast enough. By the time the week training course was over a standard sling was no longer an option and they wanted the biathalon sling with side mount flush cups for their stocks. They kind of forgot about how fast a biathalon athlete can get set up. Ten and five round mags work well but you will have to put something on the bottom of the mag to identify what you have in them for night ops (Barrier rounds or TAPs) adhesive dots work very well. Problem is we all get intel and I think the days of blind magazines are over with unless you just want to be old school. Good luck with finding money it would seem all agencies are trying to find money due to the economy being bad. I have attached Rems mil web site so that you can take a look, if you have not already done so to see the changes.

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/Firearms/Sniper%20Rifles/M700.aspx

 

[Hink]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

For magazine selection, both AICS and ATLAS mags work well with the McRee chassis. One suggestion to differentiate the ammunition -- use 10 round ATLAS mags alongside 5 round AICS mags and separate the ammunition between the two. Other than the obvious capacity and height difference, the two magazines have drastically different floorplate designs. The ALTAS is squared off, and the AICS has a lip where the bottom is rolled over. That difference should be enough to let your DM know what kind of ammunition he has just loaded into the rifle. Add to that the benefit of making that shape Murphy-resistant, because anything that sticks on will eventually fall off.

Or you could just keep it simple and only shoot one round.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or you could just keep it simple and only shoot one round.</div></div>

I would love to have one round that did it all. But the BTHP match was too inconsistent terminally, and ALWAYS shed it's core in addition to tumbling when going through glass. The AMAX does better terminally based on everything I've seen, and when we shot it through glass it didn't seem to deviate as much. We didn't have any gel to shoot, but according to the stuff that Doc GKR has posted, it is very consistent.

I'm looking for a barrier round that is very close to POA/POI compared to our AMAX that deviates less and holds on to its core. ATK is sending me several offerings (very nice of them). But asking a bullet to fly stright and true through glass but then not over-penetrate through humans is asking an awful lot. I don't think that exists yet, and if it did, we couldn't afford it. So - get a smaller amount of barrier ammo so shots we know are going to go thru glass are feasible.

WD - right now the minor upgrades are all we can afford. Going over wholesale to a TRG, AI, or even a LaRue gas gun are just out of our reach. Maybe one day. But right now, this gets us most of what we need.

BTW - I got Leupold FFP with the M5 turrets today. I just compared our SFP M1 to it, and the reticle in the FFP luppy even on 10 power has the smaller outside portion of the reticle (the thick part outside the mil-dotted part). I really with they would have kept the whole thing the same size. I do like the M5 turrets. Not converting from mils to moas is nice. I wish the M5 turret with a SFP or FFP illuminated reticle would be a bit better. But I'll mount it up tomorrow and see how it does at the range. I hope the learning curve is short.

 

[Who Dat]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Not a bad idea Hink on the floor plates!

 

[diriel]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Scope wise have you considered the SWFA SS 3x9-42? They are quite durable, and the optics are generally considered at least on par with Leupy. They are FFP and MIL.

The PFI RR800-1 3x9-42 has seem some mil deployments and initial reports indicate they seem to be holding up. The Reticle on the PFI is definitely different, so that would be something to consider up front.

http://opticsthoughts.com/index.php...l-part-1&catid=4:rifle-scope-reviews&Itemid=4

Good Review, Ilya keeps it real.

I know that 9x will get you out to 600 with ease, so if that is max engagement range then you should be gtg both power range wise and FOV wise when dialed down to 3x.

As for Barrel Length, I think LowLight has made in abundantly clear on a few different occasions - out to 800 I think he prefers an 18" barrel. For that matter if engagement is 600 or below even a 16" would work, but at that point you will begin to really notice muzzle blast. Simply put - 16-18" for an intermediate max engagement range is more than plenty in .308.

Ammunition wise for non barrier have you "played" with the Hornady 155 Tap? For barrier the Speer 150gr Gold Dot or identically constructed Federal Fusion 150gr JSP's have done well in numerous, and well documented, tests. IMO you really do not need the heavier bullets, nor are they really desirable in a city setting.


Have a good one,
Gary

 

[Who Dat]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

On the question about how many magazines to carry, I carry two in seperate mag pouches on a quick detach tactical thigh carrier. I know everyone rigs their gear different, but the reason I went that route is because I carry my 223 mags in a quick detach system also. So whatever the current situation is I can drop the AR and the quick detach mag system and attach the other system to my belt. Makes for fast reloads due to muscle memory.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

I haven't even thought of mag pouches and where to put them yet. Generally, if I'm going to be deploying as a sniper team member vs an entry dude I don't put on the full shebang with the full ninja turtle vest. I'll usually travel light - concealable vest with camo utes over it, duty belt, and everything else is in our drag bags or our hide kit. Maybe a belt-mounted mag pouch and one in the stock pack wouldn't be bad.

Frankly what I've wanted for a long time was a simple vest that had a plate carrier in front with a bit of slick cordura, but on the back is a camelback hydration holder. The sides would give me a few pouch options so I can hang extra mags, LRFs, and a few doo-dads. I'd want it to be a tough mesh of some sort to let heat escape, but have anchor points for a ghillie tarp. Oh - and a coffee dispenser.

Who's selling one of those?

 

[lonely_wolf]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SPDSNYPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly what I've wanted for a long time was a [...] </div></div>

You should contact Grand River Tactical. I don't own any of his stuff, but what I've seen looks sharp. He does custom.

 

[Hink]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

It came to me by accident... I have a 5 round AICS and two 1 round ATLAS; dead tired in the shop one night, I pushed the three together and couldn't figure why there was no space between the two ATLAS and was space between the one ATLAS and the AICS. When I figured it out, I realized it was WAY past time to crash for the night.

After looking again, there is really no external similarity between the two. Floorplates, sides, height, all are different. The only things that are the same between AICS 5 round and ATLAS 10 round are the magazine catch and feed lip location. No excuses for mistaking one magazine for another.

 

[rkgsmith]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Look to the future. We have TRG's but just got LWRC REAPERS in the 16" version. Optics are Nightforce 1-4, Lit/Mil Dot w/ Dbals mounted for NVG work. The Future of LE work is Hi-cap mag fed semi auto with low power optics to deal with the crazies who want to fight in the streets. If i need magnification on an op I use my binos.

 

[rkgsmith]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Forgot about your bullet selection. We run Barnes Triple Shok for all ops, barrier or not. 1/2 moa shift from Fed 168 is more than good enough for us.

 

[diriel]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Have to admit, the barnes TTXS or TSX are compelling. So your tests indicate they do not tend to over penetrate? Just curious is all. What Gr. Wt.? I was talking to a friend who is in LE, and he said earlier this year they had been playing with the 130gr. Drop tables even out to 400 yards were pretty flat, and the ammo was mild mannered to shoot. No idea if they ran with that solution or not, as I have not talked to him in a while. Now that I am thinking about it, I may have to call him and ask what they figured out.

Have a good one,
Gary

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

As far as gear goes, when I roll out it's usually on short notice. I am generally wearing my patrol uniform (black BDU's), concealable armor and gunbelt. I keep all my sniper support gear in a Eagle IIIA pack in my trunk. When I grab the rifle I slap a 10 round magazine in, grab the pack and go. When I get to a position I can break out concealment gear or whatever else I need.

I run the pack because I can travel heavy. In the city it's rare that I need to belly crawl if I use some decent route planning.

When a callout turns into a eight hour standoff, the contents of the ruck are nice to have. Wet weather gear helps provide some added warmth. Bug spray and sunscreen take care of the natural threats. Snacks and water keep me set until command can start resupplying officers.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For magazine selection, both AICS and ATLAS mags work well with the McRee chassis. One suggestion to differentiate the ammunition -- use 10 round ATLAS mags alongside 5 round AICS mags and separate the ammunition between the two.</div></div>

You keep mentioning "ATLAS" magazines. I have never heard of them. Could you possibly be referring to "Alpha" Magazines from Alpha Industries.

http://www.alphaindmfg.com/products.html

Other than C-Products. The Alpha magazines are the only alternative to AI magazines that I am aware of.

 

[Hink]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

You're right, Alpha magazines not Atlas.

 

[Alaskaman11]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

I'm looking for a barrier round that is very close to POA/POI compared to our AMAX that deviates less and holds on to its core. ATK is sending me several offerings (very nice of them). But asking a bullet to fly stright and true through glass but then not over-penetrate through humans is asking an awful lot. I don't think that exists yet, and if it did, we couldn't afford it. So - get a smaller amount of barrier ammo so shots we know are going to go thru glass are feasible.


Have you looked at any of the Barnes bullets, I read somewhere, that they do well with glass. I'm looking for the write up as I'm sending this.

 

[Winny]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Federal is making a round jsut for this purpose....its a 165 grn bonded soft point. Federal is calling it Tactical Bonded I believe. Our team has been shooting it for about a year now as a secondary round due to its penetration properties on glass. Our primary round is Fed 175 match. The bonded shoots with .5 to 1 MOA of the 175 zero at 100 yds but it is not match grade by any means. Good luck!

B.

 

[Who Dat]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

For a vest check out this company also, they produce a sniper tactical vest which they do not show on their web site but has the features you are looking for. You might want to give them a call to have them send you some info.

Tactical Sniper Vest

 

[diriel]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Finally found where I had read about LE loads,

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19878

Note the author of the article. Good read, with nice information. The Hornady 155gr TAP ammo seems to do pretty good as a GP round for LE.

Gary

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as gear goes, when I roll out it's usually on short notice. I am generally wearing my patrol uniform (black BDU's), concealable armor and gunbelt. I keep all my sniper support gear in a Eagle IIIA pack in my trunk. When I grab the rifle I slap a 10 round magazine in, grab the pack and go. When I get to a position I can break out concealment gear or whatever else I need.

I run the pack because I can travel heavy. In the city it's rare that I need to belly crawl if I use some decent route planning.

When a callout turns into a eight hour standoff, the contents of the ruck are nice to have. Wet weather gear helps provide some added warmth. Bug spray and sunscreen take care of the natural threats. Snacks and water keep me set until command can start resupplying officers. </div></div>

We just got Eberlerstock gunslinger rifle carrier/packs. They are great. We can deploy quickly with almost everything we need in one kit, whether it be responding to a scene on patrol or to a callout where we hit the ready room first (pre-planned raids, etc).

We are a multi-jurisdictional team covering a 900-square mile county. Lots of rural. But as you said, belly crawling in some place is extremely rare. Our standard uniform is a concealable vest under BDUs (talking about snipery stuff here). That is why I'd like to have a combo plate carrier/camelback carrier. I don't like going in first without rifle protection, but the entry vest it WAY too much for what I do. I have a plate carrier in my patrol car with front and back plates. It has extra mags on it and a BOK. Again, a little much. I just want to streamline a little, and . I guess I just want it to be efficient for the mission. Wear the PC into the area, then once I'm set up, dump it if I can (not much good to have a plate on your chest if you're laying on your belly).

 

[Who Dat]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

There is no plate or kevlar in this vest, no ballistic capabilities what so ever. It has pockets for sniper gear and is meant to be un-zipped when laying prone so you are not laying on the pockets. It also has the hydration pocket, built just for the LE Sharpshooter. See if they have a PDF file on it that they can send you, this is not an entry vest. Also has the mesh and molle attachment points on it. Turtling on a plate or kevlar sucks!

 

[rkgsmith]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

We run the TSX in a 168 gr. Loaded and sold by Federal so it's easy ordering along with the practice 168 HPBT. I finished up a study on bus and train glass over a 6 mth period. Yes .308 does over penetrate, and the .223 under penetrates on glass. You just have to plan on the over-penetration and deal with it. Nothing is perfect. We don't worry about the POI shift from the practice stuff, some guys just dial it in or leave it alone. My personal feelings is if a 1/2 moa shift at a hundred or in causes you grief then the shot should be taken.

 

[rkgsmith]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Woops mistyped, the TSX is 165gr. not 168.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

This finish is turning out great.

Very matte colored. Scraped a few inconspicuous spots - this cerakote is tough (smells horrible when baking, though). Very pleased with how this stuff turned out, even though it was a PITA to get the metal prep done right.

This is a base coat for all the rifles to protect the metal. We will rattle can them as needed to match the season / environment.

Here it is while being coated by our painter.

He is incredible. Here is a tank he is doing. All free-hand.

Wish we had the money for him to customize each rifle, but rattle-canning them to the environment makes more sense.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Almost finished product.

Some minor details need to be done, but they can be shot now. 2 are done, 4 more awaiting final cleaning and assy. Still haven't gotten the ammo from ATK for barrier round testing. Also haven't heard back from Alpha in reference to the mags.

Now thinking Triad large stock packs might be a good way to carry an extra mag on the gun.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

Final paint job on one of them. This guy kicks ass. I think he needs to quit being a cop and cerakote people's rifles for a living. He's wasting his talents.

Just kidding. Don't quit. We need you.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

He did another camo job for my rifle this time.

DONE.

Here are some pics before I go get it dirty.

He did a great job. Kinda in between woodland and multicam, with some cool details. He impressed me with the subtle details. There are a few skull, some "scream" masks, a scary guy, etc.

Also, have some barrier loads to test out in my hot little hand. ATK even offered to help us do a combo barrier/gel test.

Now - spotting scopes and vests are my last hurdles after the ammo test. Sent a few feeler messages out to a few companies, all have apparently been ignored. Really would like a light PC front with a hydration carrier in back.

Also got the PRS tripods, rifle cradles, and LRF mounts (and some plates for our current spotters). Pretty neat little piece of gear (I like "gear" better than "kit"). You have three options at the flip of a lever and they seem well-made (we will see).

 

[fdkay]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

They look good, but personally, I would hate to have to explain in civil court why my precision rifle had pictures of skulls and such on it.

Shouldn't matter but it probably does.

Just sayin'

 

[Pusher591]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

I agree with the post above. In the case you use it at work and for some reason someone sues you they can really make you look like the "blood thirsty killer cop" that you aren't.

I'm sure you know this stuff but just something to think about.

The rifle does look good though

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Re: A couple of general ??s on updating our PD rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They look good, but personally, I would hate to have to explain in civil court why my precision rifle had pictures of skulls and such on it.

Shouldn't matter but it probably does.

Just sayin' </div></div>

I'm fairly confident an artistic expression by someone else is relatively easy to put to rest in court unless you have the world's worst attorney. I see a lot of people saying things would be hard to explain in court. I often wonder if these people who are asking those questions have ever been to court, and if so, did they sleep the whole time? Maybe the log books that we bought that have a skull on them should be sent back too?! Or the targets that we shoot that are very often people's faces. That is too morbid, maybe. A lawyer could say that's training us to shoot people, and we're trained killers because of it.

It's easy to go down the "what if worms had machineguns" road. It's not an issue. I feel relatively safe.