PRS Talk Acquiring small targets in PRS matches

[Rogerthatout]

Hi everyone.

I've had a bug to add a reflex sight to my spuhr mount so that I can use it to acquire targets without zooming out my main glass.

I'm shooting a 6.5CM and main glass is tangent theta 5 to 25


Problem; There are so many to choose from. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated . Heres a picture of the rifle.

 

[VVhoisJohnGalt]

I would just practice a bunch dry firing with your scope at 15x or whatever power you shoot at...

Make sure you have a good cheek weld and it is consistent....eventually you can just drop on the gun with both eyes open and you will be right on target.

Your scope looks really high on your rifle in that picture. That may have something to do with not finding targets right away.

 

[Rogerthatout]

I would just practice a bunch dry firing with your scope at 15x or whatever power you shoot at...

Make sure you have a good cheek weld and it is consistent....eventually you can just drop on the gun with both eyes open and you will be right on target.

Your scope looks really high on your rifle in that picture. That may have something to do with not finding targets right away.

Got it, maybe I'll revisit my scope mount. How low profile cannI go...alsongotta checknmy clipon for height. Ty for pointing out that height thing.

 

[Rogerthatout]

I would just practice a bunch dry firing with your scope at 15x or whatever power you shoot at...

Make sure you have a good cheek weld and it is consistent....eventually you can just drop on the gun with both eyes open and you will be right on target.

Your scope looks really high on your rifle in that picture. That may have something to do with not finding targets right away.

How low can I get this scope? Any recommendation?

 

[AXMC]

What Spuhr model is that? Also, is your receiver rail removable and replaceable with something lower? It looks really high...

 

[lash]

Do not buy into the bs about a lower scope mount. That is not at all your issue.

How small are those targets that you cannot see them or shoot them at 12-15 power? Why is zooming in or out an issue?

Unless there are very small targets pat 1000 yards, there is little reason that you should have to zoom in on those targets to hit them. And if you do have to zoom in a bit, there is no reason that you should have to move off glass to do so. Especially with the big lever on your power ring.

I have seen some guys use a reflex or rds mounted on the side, but unless it’s mounted perfectly, you will be getting off of glass and back on again to acquire targets.

Practice acquiring and shooting all targets (okay, most targets) on a mid power such as 12-15. It’s quicker.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Do not buy into the bs about a lower scope mount. That is not at all your issue.

How small are those targets that you cannot see them or shoot them at 12-15 power? Why is zooming in or out an issue?

Unless there are very small targets pat 1000 yards, there is little reason that you should have to zoom in on those targets to hit them. And if you do have to zoom in a bit, there is no reason that you should have to move off glass to do so. Especially with the big lever on your power ring.

I have seen some guys use a reflex or rds mounted on the side, but unless it’s mounted perfectly, you will be getting off of glass and back on again to acquire targets.

Practice acquiring and shooting all targets (okay, most targets) on a mid power such as 12-15. It’s quicker.

I'm not really having a "problem", I'm just trying to get my gun pointed in the right direction faster and without the need to zoom out for a wider field of view. It's more for the stages with tagets at multiple distances and for stages where you cant touch your scope.

Last match I had a 'no touching scope' stage with alternating targets at 300 and 980 yards. I'm just looking for a reflex site to help get the rifle pointed on target faster.

 

[lash]

I'm not really having a "problem", I'm just trying to get my gun pointed in the right direction faster and without the need to zoom out for a wider field of view. It's more for the stages with tagets at multiple distances and for stages where you cant touch your scope.

Last match I had a 'no touching scope' stage with alternating targets at 300 and 980 yards. I'm just looking for a reflex site to help get the rifle pointed on target faster.

I get it. Last match, I shot the whole match except one stage on 12x, including longer targets at 1000 yards. At 12x acquiring targets should be easier. Also, as mentioned above, if you have both eyes open, you can see the field.

 

[Sheldon N]

I've had a bug to add a reflex sight to my spuhr mount so that I can use it to acquire targets without zooming out my main glass.

I would strongly discourage a red dot sight, that's not the route you want to go and I can't say I've ever seen anyone use one at a match.

Focus on practicing the skill of target acquisition. I like to think of it as a two step process of both instinct pointing the rifle (sort of like shotgun shooting without sights) and then aligning your body to match the rifle. The goal is to look at the target with your naked eye up until you've got the gun and your body fully in position then you transition to looking through the scope. If you did it right the target should be in scope already based on how you've "aimed" your entire rifle/body position.

Do lots of repetitions of this process at different targets, from different positions. Each time make a mental note of where you tended to miss and use that to refine your aim. Start out at 10 power, then as you get better increase the power to make it harder. Long term goal would be to be so accurate at pointing the rifle and building a position that you could be on 25 power and still have the target in scope first try when you look through the reticle.

I personally don't do the "zoom out, hunt for the target, zoom back in" thing if I get lost mid-stage trying to find a target. I'll pop off the scope, reacquire the target visually, re-aim my gun and body, then get back on the scope. I find it to be faster.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Are there stages where you can’t touch the optic at all? I’ve seen no dial stages. But that’s for turrets only. Parallax and mag ring typically aren’t included.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Are there stages where you can’t touch the optic at all? I’ve seen no dial stages. But that’s for turrets only. Parallax and mag ring typically aren’t included.

At least one of the match venues in this area (VA) runs a "no-dial" stage where you're not allowed to adjust the scope at all, including parallax and magnification.

 

[Rogerthatout]

I would strongly discourage a red dot sight, that's not the route you want to go and I can't say I've ever seen anyone use one at a match.

Focus on practicing the skill of target acquisition. I like to think of it as a two step process of both instinct pointing the rifle (sort of like shotgun shooting without sights) and then aligning your body to match the rifle. The goal is to look at the target with your naked eye up until you've got the gun and your body fully in position then you transition to looking through the scope. If you did it right the target should be in scope already based on how you've "aimed" your entire rifle/body position.

Do lots of repetitions of this process at different targets, from different positions. Each time make a mental note of where you tended to miss and use that to refine your aim. Start out at 10 power, then as you get better increase the power to make it harder. Long term goal would be to be so accurate at pointing the rifle and building a position that you could be on 25 power and still have the target in scope first try when you look through the reticle.

I personally don't do the "zoom out, hunt for the target, zoom back in" thing if I get lost mid-stage trying to find a target. I'll pop off the scope, reacquire the target visually, re-aim my gun and body, then get back on the scope. I find it to be faster.

Thank you, was hoping the reflex would be training wheels. Guess most guys here say practice makes most sense

 

[Rogerthatout]

Are there stages where you can’t touch the optic at all? I’ve seen no dial stages. But that’s for turrets only. Parallax and mag ring typically aren’t included.

This was zero touching....nothing allowed. No turrets I've seen before, this was a first for me

 

[Rogerthatout]

At least one of the match venues in this area (VA) runs a "no-dial" stage where you're not allowed to adjust the scope at all, including parallax and magnification.

That's what we had here.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Hi everyone.

I've had a bug to add a reflex sight to my spuhr mount so that I can use it to acquire targets without zooming out my main glass.

I'm shooting a 6.5CM and main glass is tangent theta 5 to 25


Problem; There are so many to choose from. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated . Heres a picture of the rifle.

View attachment 7155727

If I may, as had been said here, really practice squaring your shoulders to the rifle and to the target. That helped immensely, and also you could look over your elevation turret to aim it at the target. It’ll get you pretty damn close.

 

[Rant Durden]

Having only done three matches I don't have much experience, but I can tell you each one has gotten easier. I think your eyes get better at picking out targets and staying on them. I had a similar problem when I started varmint shooting here in Cali. We don't have dog towns, and picking them out in the trees and rocks can be a bitch, but the more I do it the more I can spot for others.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Ty ty

 

[B-P-UU]

Are there stages where you can’t touch the optic at all? I’ve seen no dial stages. But that’s for turrets only. Parallax and mag ring typically aren’t included.

"No adjustment" is becoming more common. At the bighorn match, your scope had to be on zero-zero to start the stage or you got a zero. Touch the scope (not adjust, just touch anything accidentally) you got a zero for the stage.

Pick a magnification and parallax to start and hold over every target.

 

[B-P-UU]

Focus on practicing the skill of target acquisition. I like to think of it as a two step process of both instinct pointing the rifle (sort of like shotgun shooting without sights) and then aligning your body to match the rifle. The goal is to look at the target with your naked eye up until you've got the gun and your body fully in position then you transition to looking through the scope. If you did it right the target should be in scope already based on how you've "aimed" your entire rifle/body position.


I personally don't do the "zoom out, hunt for the target, zoom back in" thing if I get lost mid-stage trying to find a target. I'll pop off the scope, reacquire the target visually, re-aim my gun and body, then get back on the scope. I find it to be faster.

This is key.. I see so many guys maintaining cheek weld, zoom out and scanning/pivoting to find the next target.

Come off the scope, acquire next target, re-adjust body and rifle accordingly by pointing rifle at target, and resume cheek weld. On stages with large amounts of panning, it's faster to lift the front of your rifle to point it as needed (instead of pivoting on the bipod).

 

[Rogerthatout]

"No adjustment" is becoming more common. At the bighorn match, your scope had to be on zero-zero to start the stage or you got a zero. Touch the scope (not adjust, just touch anything accidentally) you got a zero for the stage.

Pick a magnification and parallax to start and hold over every target.

I practice this dry in my gun room

 

[TACC]

At least one of the match venues in this area (VA) runs a "no-dial" stage where you're not allowed to adjust the scope at all, including parallax and magnification.

I'm new at this so, what was the reason to make this requirement in the stage, especially since done of the scopes are up in the 1000's of dollars, you would think you would want to use them to their potential.

Unless they are trying to mimick a damaged scope,
Or
Just trying to make things more difficult.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

I'm new at this so, what was the reason to make this requirement in the stage, especially since done of the scopes are up in the 1000's of dollars, you would think you would want to use them to their potential.

Unless they are trying to mimick a damaged scope,
Or
Just trying to make things more difficult.

Good stage designs are usually intended to focus on testing one or more specific skills. "No Dial" or "No Adjustment" stages are one way to force a competitor to hold over/under targets and to use their reticle. Another (more difficult) way of accomplishing the same thing might be to have multiple targets at different ranges that must all be engaged from multiple postions, using a time crunch to eliminate dialing instead of a stage direction.

Requiring they have parallax and zoom set before time starts is just adding an element to stage prep, but really most guys who've figured things out will do that anyways, and with the exception of the longer range prone stages most of the good shooters I know generally stay between 12-15x for most everything. "No adjustments" probably also makes it a little easier on an RO, as there's no need to differentiate between allowed scope adjustments and those that earn a stage DQ, and so less chance of a shooter arguing with an RO over why/how they adjusted their scope after time started.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

This is key.. I see so many guys maintaining cheek weld, zoom out and scanning/pivoting to find the next target.

Come off the scope, acquire next target, re-adjust body and rifle accordingly by pointing rifle at target, and resume cheek weld. On stages with large amounts of panning, it's faster to lift the front of your rifle to point it as needed (instead of pivoting on the bipod).

Good stuff.

Here's a pretty good explanation of the same idea by Phil V:

 

[Rogerthatout]

I'm new at this so, what was the reason to make this requirement in the stage, especially since done of the scopes are up in the 1000's of dollars, you would think you would want to use them to their potential.

Unless they are trying to mimick a damaged scope,
Or
Just trying to make things more difficult.

More challenging and yes the directors want to mimick real scenarios. Last match at sheepdog we moved a dummy victim to safety, then engaged 5 unsupported and 5 from barricade.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Good stuff.

Here's a pretty good explanation of the same idea by Phil V:

Awesome video, hes saying and showing the same things others here are suggesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Rogerthatout]

I get it. Last match, I shot the whole match except one stage on 12x, including longer targets at 1000 yards. At 12x acquiring targets should be easier. Also, as mentioned above, if you have both eyes open, you can see the field.

Funny, my mentor is shooting 12 X all day

 

[Dthomas3523]

More challenging and yes the directors want to mimick real scenarios. Last match at sheepdog we moved a dummy victim to safety, then engaged 5 unsupported and 5 from barricade.

Not being able to touch parallax/mag ring is gimmicky and not realistic at all though.

No dial on elevation/windage turrets is realistic. Beyond that is a gimmick.

Same idea as shooting unsupported at small targets or longer than 1-200yds. It’s weird shit someone said “what if” without really thinking about it.

 

[Blitzy]

I have the same problem and make sure to start every stage below 7x or so. Zoom in without leaving eye box with throw lever once Target is acquired.

 

[LawnMM]

"No adjustment" is becoming more common. At the bighorn match, your scope had to be on zero-zero to start the stage or you got a zero. Touch the scope (not adjust, just touch anything accidentally) you got a zero for the stage.

Pick a magnification and parallax to start and hold over every target.

 

[ThePretzel]

Another handy tip for finding targets is to pick out larger landmarks near the target that are easy to find in the scope. "Map out" the targets in relation to them.

For example, if the target has a rock below it, a tall tree to the left, a short tree to the right of target, and the top of a ridge above it you can easily navigate to the target if you're anywhere within about 50 feet of it. See a ridgeline? Go down. See a short tree? Go left. Rock? Move up.

Mapping the targets in your mind compared to these large landmark items is very helpful. If you have a hard time mapping it in your mind, draw the map onto a DOPE card and use a Sidewinder or Python to stick that to your rifle during the stage.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Another handy tip for finding targets is to pick out larger landmarks near the target that are easy to find in the scope. "Map out" the targets in relation to them.

For example, if the target has a rock below it, a tall tree to the left, a short tree to the right of target, and the top of a ridge above it you can easily navigate to the target if you're anywhere within about 50 feet of it. See a ridgeline? Go down. See a short tree? Go left. Rock? Move up.

Mapping the targets in your mind compared to these large landmark items is very helpful. If you have a hard time mapping it in your mind, draw the map onto a DOPE card and use a Sidewinder or Python to stick that to your rifle during the stage.

Good stuff I found myself mapping on DOPE card too on last match. Sidewinder or Python? What's that?

 

[ThePretzel]

Sidewinder or Python? What's that?

Just a little cheap doodad that allows you to attach a DOPE card onto the side of your rifle. Keeps your DOPE close and handy during the match.

 

[Cm308]

where to get a si rewinder?

 

[lash]

where to get a si rewinder?

You can get a si rewinder at a bunch of places. Just search for sidewinder data card holder, like this:

“sidewinder data card holder”

 

[Forward543]

Build a plan in your head with landmarks. When setting position look over your elevation turret and down your scope tube to get it close, and set your body up to be square with the target. With good landmarks, and practice, you will be on target 90% of the time when you get on glass. When transitioning targets you should be able to pan without backing mag off, if necessary, pull off glass and realign.

 

[dgheriani]

I'll be the dissenting opinion here. I run red dots on both my match guns and find it to be a big help. It's not that I can't index on targets without them (in fact the more I've used red dots, the faster I've gotten at picking up targets with rifles that don't have them), it's just faster, especially in weird, awkward positions or when panning in big arcs. Put the dot on the target and drop behind your scope and the target is there. I have a red dot on my spotter as well and when I do my stage prep, I landmark where to put the dot to be on target and that translates straight to indexing the rifle on target.

 

[Rogerthatout]

I'll be the dissenting opinion here. I run red dots on both my match guns and find it to be a big help. It's not that I can't index on targets without them (in fact the more I've used red dots, the faster I've gotten at picking up targets with rifles that don't have them), it's just faster, especially in weird, awkward positions or when panning in big arcs. Put the dot on the target and drop behind your scope and the target is there. I have a red dot on my spotter as well and when I do my stage prep, I landmark where to put the dot to be on target and that translates straight to indexing the rifle on target.

That's why I have a bug to try it.
Which red dot are you using?

 

[dgheriani]

I'm using Leupold Deltapoint Pros but honestly you can use pretty much anything. I'd get a smaller sized dot though, something 3 moa or smaller (vs the 6moa dots on some RDS).

 

[Rogerthatout]

I'm using Leupold Deltapoint Pros but honestly you can use pretty much anything. I'd get a smaller sized dot though, something 3 moa or smaller (vs the 6moa dots on some RDS).

K, I figured 6 is too much. I was looking at the trijicon but honestly it's over engineered for me. I'll take the delta point, ty for the help.

 

[Rogerthatout]

I'm using Leupold Deltapoint Pros but honestly you can use pretty much anything. I'd get a smaller sized dot though, something 3 moa or smaller (vs the 6moa dots on some RDS).

Not so cheap is it?

 

[TheGerman]

I only read the first post and looked at the picture.

I immediately had to post, so that I could ask if you were in fact, a giraffe?

 

[Rogerthatout]

I only read the first post and looked at the picture.

I immediately had to post, so that I could ask if you were in fact, a giraffe?

After seeing what extreme long range rifles look like, my 2.5inch scope height is a nonissue. Topic here is more about acquiring targets and squaring off properly as some readers pointed out. Thanks for the laugh though.

 

[LawnMM]

 

[atepointer]

I get it. Last match, I shot the whole match except one stage on 12x, including longer targets at 1000 yards. At 12x acquiring targets should be easier. Also, as mentioned above, if you have both eyes open, you can see the field.

Lash do you dial elevation/wind hold in PRS or are you doing Christmas tree holds on both windage and elevation? Wondering if there is an advantage one way or the other? I dial elevation and do wind holds with SCR-MIL reticle. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[lash]

Lash do you dial elevation/wind hold in PRS or are you doing Christmas tree holds on both windage and elevation? Wondering if there is an advantage one way or the other? I dial elevation and do wind holds with SCR-MIL reticle. Thanks for your thoughts.

It completely depends upon the stage and the time allotted for that stage. With few exceptions, I mostly hold for stages inside 500 yards or so, but only if there are multiple ranges in that stage. Let’s face it, using your crosshairs will always give you the best sight picture if there’s time to dial.

For anything else, it mostly depends upon the amount of time allotted. Do you see a pattern there? The further out the targets are, especially if they are under 2 moa, the more likely that I will dial.

I honestly prefer dialing, but practice my holds, as there is almost always a stage or three that makes it an advantage.

 

[atepointer]

It completely depends upon the stage and the time allotted for that stage. With few exceptions, I mostly hold for stages inside 500 yards or so, but only if there are multiple ranges in that stage. Let’s face it, using your crosshairs will always give you the best sight picture if there’s time to dial.

For anything else, it mostly depends upon the amount of time allotted. Do you see a pattern there? The further out the targets are, especially if they are under 2 moa, the more likely that I will dial.

I honestly prefer dialing, but practice my holds, as there is almost always a stage or three that makes it an advantage.

Very good thank you. Makes perfect sense as well. I have an XTR II 5-25 SCR-MIL and really like it. Having said that I'm glass shopping for my gasser which my dad will shoot when we are at JTAC. I want to get something that will be a good back up setup for me if I ever have glass go down so am looking at FFP 4-20 maybe 5-25, but am considering one of the Christmas tree reticles after looking through an H59 and Tremor last week. Thanks man appreciate the detail.

 

[gnochi]

As far as acquiring targets is concerned, keep both eyes open with one eye looking through the scope (for the rest of this, I assume a right-handed shooter). Look at the target, focusing with the left eye, and adjust the rifle until the reticle from the right eye is superimposed on the target area from the left eye.

You can practice this without a rifle by making a small (1/4in or so) circle with your pointer finger and thumb on the right hand and holding that a couple inches in front of your right eye. Find an interesting feature on the ceiling or wall or neighbor’s house and look at it with your left eye, then move your head and right arm until you see the feature without having your hand superimposed over it.

 

[Rogerthatout]

As far as acquiring targets is concerned, keep both eyes open with one eye looking through the scope (for the rest of this, I assume a right-handed shooter). Look at the target, focusing with the left eye, and adjust the rifle until the reticle from the right eye is superimposed on the target area from the left eye.

You can practice this without a rifle by making a small (1/4in or so) circle with your pointer finger and thumb on the right hand and holding that a couple inches in front of your right eye. Find an interesting feature on the ceiling or wall or neighbor’s house and look at it with your left eye, then move your head and right arm until you see the feature without having your hand superimposed over it.

Wow, that's interesting. It shows me why I'm so far off in the field. I gotta move my head and right eye much further to target than I felt was needed. Will play with that more. Cool exercise.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Got myself a handy dandy vortex

Was half the price of a trijicon SRO, RMR or Leopold delta point and the life time warranty made it easy for me to decide...I love this for what I needed.