What's so hard to understand that he went to town every day and was friendly with the sheriff. .fed wanted a big show. They got it.
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Anniversary of burning little kids to death
- Thread starter deersniper
- Start date
McViegh was nothing more than a patsy!
The LE stop was for what reason?
When going to the pre-parked car he approached it from X______________ do the math. That plan was not conger'ed up by Civilians.
Some here say that was another conspiracy. Who knows with as much as .gov lies.
If the .gov story is true, .gov created the mess when they murdered the weavers at Ruby ridge. and all the innocents at Waco. He didn't pick today for no reason.
I think we all have to understand AND accept how insidious the government has been and still is, regardless of who is in the White House. We civilians are a source of income, a tool or a liability for those in power.
That mass murder lay's at the feet of .gov an no one else. There are many ways to snatch someone/anyone. No one is 100% protected if someone smart enough is willing to excute a well thought out plan, an willing to go all the way.
Your post brings up a very interesting point. Fast forward.
Today, for tactical operations there is a threat matrix, and a use of force matrix, put in place bc the supreme court has ruled against excess force multiple times.
And a similar matrix exists for mil special operations like the Osama takedown.
Even the WW2 Okinawa assault planning tried to reduce innocent civilian collateral damage.
As has every major military campaign since.
Any professional honest look at Waco shows the total lack of matrix planning to reduce what happened and the nuclear option that was used with the inevitable results.
I could point by point detail every single use of excessive force, but I'm not, am gonna say none of it would be allowed today by any professional entity LE or Mil with a scintilla of integrity...
Yes, there was a huge failure of responsibility with those you post. And inexcusable when standards are examined.
The most effective crime fighting mechanism is an alert State Trooper. McViegh had his chance. Never said anything. Mcveiegh was a baby killer.
No one listened then or cared it seems.. Most still don't know or believe it to be of any concern.
"Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex." - President Dwight D. Eisenhower
"For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence — on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. " - President John F. Kennedy
Yes, but brain less will get to that point. Study his military record,... he was nothing but a 1-2-3 robot an when looking for a lacky,... plant the seed, invest, then harvest.
His murder by the CIA was, in my view of American history, an, if not the, turning point.
Add the creation of the Fed.
So, would it be a stretch of the imagination to think you might not be a big fan of the Warren report ?
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That used to be they way it worked. Not anymore. The entire country can be taken over by an engineered virus without firing a shot. The only reason to stay armed is crime (now) and the aftermath (what's next). We are not going to change anything. We are along for the ride.
Buy food. Move out of the city.
Andrew Jackson went after the bankers. The bankers bounced back.
Without the control and influence over free money, the machine Eisenhower and JFK described wouldn't have two legs to stand on.
Been a long slow progression the last 200 years.
Whatever comes next to cause the replacement of the failing UN is concerning. Schit comes in three and I speculate there will be a third world body.
God bless all the murdered to get there.
Koresh jogged every morning down the public road why not snatch him then? This was a out of control government action. Blood thisty thugs.
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i dont think the initial goal of the feds was to burn anything down. what they WANTED to do, was raid the compound forcably. that is indisputable. and they tried. BUT....they got their asses handed to them. classic case of underestimating your opponent.
once that happened, i am sure whoever running the show decreed that there absolutely can NOT be an incident where the citizens openly kick the government’s ass off their land. egos got involved, calmer heads did NOT prevail.
back in those days, it was unheard of for people to stand their ground. hell, many of the rights we openly exercise today, you just COULDNT do back then....even if it was (techinically) legal. concealed carry? didnt fucking exist. open carry? although legal most places, you would be arrested, prosecuted, and jailed for “brandishing a firearm”....seen it done. castle doctrine? nope, didnt exist either. take it from someone who stopped a home invasion in 1994, and was arrrested, charged, and sentenced for it. <—part of the problem was my ignorance of the justice system, but my arrest never should have happened.
the point is, it was entirely different that what it is now....thank goodness. we are far more free now then we were back then.....at least in our ability to exercise more rights. we are LESS free in that everything we say and do is monitered. everything. and i dont know how that one ever gets fixed....Short of biblical prophecy.
some people believe the government’s take, some dont. personally, i saw so much bad behavoir on the governments’ part that i doubt everything they put forth. what they should have done, is secured the area like they did. backed off even further. let things cool down. there would have been a lot of people alive today if they had. instead, they pushed those people without end and forced a confrontation.....they escalated the situation.
with ruby ridge, things went horribly wrong. if it werent for Bo Gritz, the rest of Randy Weaver’s family would have been executed on that mountain. Randy won his lawsuit against the government, but justice wont be served in this world.
None of us have all the facts, all we can do is speculate and take educated guesses. I remember it all very well. And what i remember more than anything, is an over zealous government....especially in the weaver case. Waco was more of the same, at least from my perspective. It sure would have been nice if both incidents would have not gone down like they did.
once that happened, i am sure whoever running the show decreed that there absolutely can NOT be an incident where the citizens openly kick the government’s ass off their land. egos got involved, calmer heads did NOT prevail.
back in those days, it was unheard of for people to stand their ground. hell, many of the rights we openly exercise today, you just COULDNT do back then....even if it was (techinically) legal. concealed carry? didnt fucking exist. open carry? although legal most places, you would be arrested, prosecuted, and jailed for “brandishing a firearm”....seen it done. castle doctrine? nope, didnt exist either. take it from someone who stopped a home invasion in 1994, and was arrrested, charged, and sentenced for it. <—part of the problem was my ignorance of the justice system, but my arrest never should have happened.
the point is, it was entirely different that what it is now....thank goodness. we are far more free now then we were back then.....at least in our ability to exercise more rights. we are LESS free in that everything we say and do is monitered. everything. and i dont know how that one ever gets fixed....Short of biblical prophecy.
some people believe the government’s take, some dont. personally, i saw so much bad behavoir on the governments’ part that i doubt everything they put forth. what they should have done, is secured the area like they did. backed off even further. let things cool down. there would have been a lot of people alive today if they had. instead, they pushed those people without end and forced a confrontation.....they escalated the situation.
with ruby ridge, things went horribly wrong. if it werent for Bo Gritz, the rest of Randy Weaver’s family would have been executed on that mountain. Randy won his lawsuit against the government, but justice wont be served in this world.
None of us have all the facts, all we can do is speculate and take educated guesses. I remember it all very well. And what i remember more than anything, is an over zealous government....especially in the weaver case. Waco was more of the same, at least from my perspective. It sure would have been nice if both incidents would have not gone down like they did.
Ya'll need to just STFU. I love and trust my gub'mint. They know whats best. I do as I'm told, I dont make waves. They give me Soma for my pleasure.
Lucky you can have guns after that. Everything is a prohibiting offense now. Got to defang everyone that might not be a good little tax slave and has some balls.
Also interesting :
Ive had Dinner with the good Colonel. His son and me graduated a school together from the same unit... only ones to get through from our battalion in over a year.. Sgt Maj and the Old Man took us to dinner.... we we’re ematiated. Brutal This was pre RR, but right around the time he was going back to Vn looking for POWs.. Enjoyed his company.
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None would die at Waco today either. Reinforcements would show up like at bundy
What's so hard to understand that I already said that.... one does not negate the other. Yes, they should have arrested Koresh on the road by himself. That does not mean Koresh didn't kill everyone there because he didn't want to be arrested for child molestation. Yes, the govt. used tear gas that can be incendiary, that doesn't mean the Davidians that were heard talking about starting the fires didn't start them. It's not all black and white, there is more than one bad guy here..... you can criticize the governments actions all night long, I'm right there with you. But when you start trying to paint Koresh and his followers as innocent saints, that's where we part. And like I said earlier, the County Sheriff should have stepped in, in both of those cases, and taken charge.
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what was the evidence against koresh? Was he convicted of molestation or any other crime?
Only one side attacked the other so you should stop with the equivalence shtick,,, only one side invade a property owners property, only one side attacked a citizen,,, then got but hurt when the citizens attacked back.
Fact is that the government killed its citizens here and didn't really need to when they could have had the sheriff pick him up while jogging along the road on his morning run, also he was not hiding, he was about town often,,, why the attack on the house of worship?
There is one accusation of wrong doing by a proven untrustworthy party and there is an actual wrong doing conducted by that same untrustworthy party on camera.. They are not both equally wrong or even both wrong, one side was actually and factually murdering people and did a coup de grace by bond firing 80 kids, the other side attempted to protect itself from armored clad attackers.. sorry but facts dont support your equivalency argument here.
I am not painting the jackass preacher or whatever as anything here, but as a citizen he is innocent until proven guilty,,,,so stop with the post mortem slander ,, remember the gov paid out quite a bit of money for the murders, they dont do that easily. These two incidents gave me my first inkling that our government was a danger to the republic. They will never regain the trust I had in them before these incidents,,, now I always believe the worst and am almost always proven right. Sadly.
Only one side attacked the other so you should stop with the equivalence shtick,,, only one side invade a property owners property, only one side attacked a citizen,,, then got but hurt when the citizens attacked back.
Fact is that the government killed its citizens here and didn't really need to when they could have had the sheriff pick him up while jogging along the road on his morning run, also he was not hiding, he was about town often,,, why the attack on the house of worship?
There is one accusation of wrong doing by a proven untrustworthy party and there is an actual wrong doing conducted by that same untrustworthy party on camera.. They are not both equally wrong or even both wrong, one side was actually and factually murdering people and did a coup de grace by bond firing 80 kids, the other side attempted to protect itself from armored clad attackers.. sorry but facts dont support your equivalency argument here.
I am not painting the jackass preacher or whatever as anything here, but as a citizen he is innocent until proven guilty,,,,so stop with the post mortem slander ,, remember the gov paid out quite a bit of money for the murders, they dont do that easily. These two incidents gave me my first inkling that our government was a danger to the republic. They will never regain the trust I had in them before these incidents,,, now I always believe the worst and am almost always proven right. Sadly.
The trigger was a UPS driver that dropped a box an de-milled frags (aka paper weights) spilled out. The ATF went wild when told they were real live frags but the fuck ball CI could not tell the difference later when tested. Lie upon lie an .gov wanting to make an example, nothing more nothing less,... They used Jim Jones (Jones town) to hype the day as well,...
The reason no one died at the Bundy standoff is because heros held their fire. Say what you will about BLM LE, but if any other 3 letter agency had been in charge the outcome would have been very different. Their leadership was useless but the on the ground rangers and agents kept a bad situation from being a bloodbath. They decided someone grazing cows illegally wasn't worth killing people over.
Not to be argumentative, but "and yet they did" Who was it that was shot multiple times? (Found it, "Robert Lavoy Finicum)
No one got shot at the Bundy standoff in Nevada except 3 cops in Vegas killed by two Bundy supporters. The Malheur occupation Levoy Finicum was shot multiple times by the Oregon State Police. BLM was not there or involved in any way when he got shot.
History......Must be remembered and frequently discussed so people will not forget. Kudos to OP who started this thread and everybody who participated in it.
Not a lot for the Feds to be proud of in the entire period. Regarding Randy Weaver, I was living an hour away at that time. The feds went after Randy Weaver because he refused to join the neo-nazis in Hayden Lake and spy on the wacky Rev. Butler for them. The FBI plan was to entrap him into a crime and force him to act as an informer in order to stay out of jail. This all came out in the trial and he was acquitted. The FBI admitted they fabricated evidence against Weaver by "placing" evidence where it would do the most good for their version of the story. They had gathered "evidence" without photographing it or properly logging it.
In Waco, they should have simply left well enough alone. Every local cop told the BATFE that Rev. Wacky came to town every day to collect mail and whatever else they needed. They could have arrested him without incident if they had wanted too. There was a licensed FFL on the property of the compound, class 3 as well...........................hearing the ethereal "automatic weapons fire" was perfectly legal.
The BATF made a show of their stupid idea, informing every media outlet for 200 miles to get a hundred new trucks to the area. The media had been calling the Branch Davidians for more than an hour, "seeking comment" on the raid when the idiots from the ATF finally arrived for their surprise attack. The video of the raid shows agents shooting each other in a few places.
No worries folks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,once Bernie gets elected government death squads killing unarmed and defenseless women and children for thought crimes will be a weekly event.
In Waco, they should have simply left well enough alone. Every local cop told the BATFE that Rev. Wacky came to town every day to collect mail and whatever else they needed. They could have arrested him without incident if they had wanted too. There was a licensed FFL on the property of the compound, class 3 as well...........................hearing the ethereal "automatic weapons fire" was perfectly legal.
The BATF made a show of their stupid idea, informing every media outlet for 200 miles to get a hundred new trucks to the area. The media had been calling the Branch Davidians for more than an hour, "seeking comment" on the raid when the idiots from the ATF finally arrived for their surprise attack. The video of the raid shows agents shooting each other in a few places.
No worries folks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,once Bernie gets elected government death squads killing unarmed and defenseless women and children for thought crimes will be a weekly event.
so they were in Vegas, was there a stand off there too?
lets not conflate these two incidents.
lets not conflate these two incidents.
Bundy 2014
Malhuer 2016
What's forgotten is the 81 day Montana Freeman standoff in 1996.
Where the lessons learned from Ruby Ridge 1992, and Waco 1993, kept the .Gov in check and much better handled.
Until 2005 and Malhuer 2016.
From 1996 to 2016, there was an unusual peace btw the citizens and .Gov, except a disease festered named Strozck.....
Funny but not, 92 & 93 and 2016, there was a Clinton involved.. disease lived there too.....
Nahh, it's just our imagination... ?
Kinda wonder who old Billy would call meddlesome in that review of Henry versus today.
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two pages and the discussion is still civil, the marking or mention of this subject usually gets the bootlickes and boot wearers complaining so much it gets shut down... good job gents.
Uh, no, he was not convicted of child molestation because he was DEAD. But even his brother admits he was a child molestor…
https://www.westernjournal.com/davi...aders-habit-marrying-multiple-underage-girls/
You seem to be in the camp of the government screwed up, so that makes Koresh not culpable for anything.
That's not where I am. I'm in the camp of the ATF royally screwed the pooch with this ill thought out, poorly executed and totally unnecessary raid that was done for PR reasons and blew up in their face. But once the initial raid was over, Koresh could have given himself up through the Sheriff and/or an attorney at any time. But no, the chickenshit used the kids as hostages, and in the end wound up killing all of them to keep himself from being arrested. You can ignore the evidence they started the fires. In the recording of the Davidians talking about lighting the fires, they must have been talking about "other" fires. Randy Weaver was wronged worse than Koresh, yet the remaining members of his family lived because he stepped up, gave up, and fought it in court. And while the goverment paid court ordered restitution to Weaver, the Branch Davidians lost their claims. There's a reason for that..... but I'm done arguing about it, believe what you want.
No justice in "court ordered restitution". So the tax payers get to pay for another .gov fuck up and the criminals get off with no repercussions.
Facts are facts man, take a hard look at the facts.. if you deny them, so be it. Stop with the straw man argument about People thinking Koreesh was a saint, i dont see anyone saying that here.... actually see the opposite but nothing proven,,, and the track record of the Gov is not good in this area, especially when they bring charges post facto.
I believe in fact you are asking us to believe in conjecture.
I believe in fact you are asking us to believe in conjecture.
As long as this educational discourse continues as it is without deflagrating like a string of firecrackers, there should be no issues at all.
I possess some knowledge of the deeper levels of Waco and Ruby Ridge, but what I have learned from just these couple of days of dialogue here is something NO academic textbook of history will ever provide. The proliferation and passing down of this information is more than crucial to the continuous fight to preserve our liberty.
I possess some knowledge of the deeper levels of Waco and Ruby Ridge, but what I have learned from just these couple of days of dialogue here is something NO academic textbook of history will ever provide. The proliferation and passing down of this information is more than crucial to the continuous fight to preserve our liberty.
Just making sure we are talking apples to apples here
fact
/fakt/
noun
fact
/fakt/
noun
- a thing that is known or proved to be true.
"he ignores some historical and economic facts"
synonyms: reality, actuality, certainty, factuality, certitude; More
- a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
synonyms: detail, piece of information, particular, item, specific, element, point, factor, feature, characteristic, respect, ingredient, attribute, circumstance, consideration, aspect, facet;More
- used in discussing the significance of something that is the case.
noun: the fact that
"the real problem facing them is the fact that their funds are being cut"
- a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
While that is true, LE is task to be Smarter an more Patient than dirtbags. While that is true in some places most wannabees only see a nail. That type never would pass a true psych test but when you have to lower the std to warm body level expect nothing less,...
the cost in trust and lost freedom was and is much higher,
You seem to want to dismiss the words of those who were there, for some reason...
https://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html
Koresh was a child molestor, period. Also, the Siege at Waco lasted 51 days. So take 51 days, take away day 1, which was the initial raid, how many days does that leave left that Koresh could have let the children leave the compound and live instead of holding them as hostages? Sorry, he is culpable. That doesn't say the government is not culpable as well. I don't understand why that is so hard of a concept.
https://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html
Koresh was a child molestor, period. Also, the Siege at Waco lasted 51 days. So take 51 days, take away day 1, which was the initial raid, how many days does that leave left that Koresh could have let the children leave the compound and live instead of holding them as hostages? Sorry, he is culpable. That doesn't say the government is not culpable as well. I don't understand why that is so hard of a concept.
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