Rifle Scopes Another Vortex down
- Thread starter mzvarner
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^^ THIS^^, so Very This! After owning several scopes with keyed knobs I absolutely hate set-screw turret knobs...
I'm guessing this feature makes manufacturing a little more difficult, as the knob and turret keys have to be indexed perfectly, but I definitely prefer the design.
Yeah, I can remember when Leopould Mk 4s for about $800 - $900 were the shit. Then, it was Nightforce for what?.... $1200 - $1500? - now NFs are up to $2500 for the mid-range model? Anymore, you have to have a budget similar to military guys to play this game. Or so it's thought.
I rarely look at either the optics sales forum or the firearms sales forums anymore because it's just gotten too expensive. And besides, I can't figure out what all these letters and numbers mean after the brand name. You know, I can still decipher some of the NF models like 5.5-22x56 but stuff like Schmidt & Bender or US Optics - forget it.
And different kinds of reticles? Trying to figure that stuff out and I start getting a nosebleed.
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Hilariously, on the more affordable side of the spectrum, EO Tech Vudu line functions this way. The “knob” - or really the outer sleeve of the turret - is keyed to the cogged portion of the turret stem. This sleeve itself is held in place by a cap that threads into the stem. Genius really; elegantly simple.^^ THIS^^, so Very This! After owning several scopes with keyed knobs I absolutely hate set-screw turret knobs...
I'm guessing this feature makes manufacturing a little more difficult, as the knob and turret keys have to be indexed perfectly, but I definitely prefer the design.
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I wish you guys would spread the word that Vortex sucks a little more because a few sites I've seen can't keep the Gen 2 PSTs in stock and now I have to wait.
Seriously though, being a new kid here, I really had no idea that even the higher end brands were having QC issues. Guess I'll buy the Gen 2 with Mil discount and love the warranty.
Plus I'll use the SS 10x as a back up in case this one fails.
Seriously though, being a new kid here, I really had no idea that even the higher end brands were having QC issues. Guess I'll buy the Gen 2 with Mil discount and love the warranty.
Plus I'll use the SS 10x as a back up in case this one fails.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit that the Vortex bashers have either owned the lessor models (not Razor) and expecting too much or have never owned a Vortex and feel the need to bash another company to justify whatever scope they do own. Frank really needs to do a better job cleaning out the troll accounts before it gets like ar15.com and others.
I'm 50 years old and hunted my entire life and never broke a rifle scope...sounds like you brake them all....maybe you shouldn't buy nice things....lol
Every time this thread almost dies someone post something along the lines of straight trolling and we get more thoughts from the peanut gallery. % wise there is nothing out of the norm with any of the vortex lines compared to anyone else out there. Our shop sells the shit out of most all of the lines with very low return rate. Haters always gunna hate.
You know what's funny? Sightron. I've seen folks on this very site bash Sightron because they used a keyed turret instead of some set screws. I have not had an issue ever with Sightron but am waiting for them to figure out an elegant way to do zero stop.^^ THIS^^, so Very This! After owning several scopes with keyed knobs I absolutely hate set-screw turret knobs...
I'm guessing this feature makes manufacturing a little more difficult, as the knob and turret keys have to be indexed perfectly, but I definitely prefer the design.
Oh yeah, and I've no issue with the Vortex Gen I and Gen II scopes.
This "keyed" or "notched" turret design isn't revolutionary. Hell, half the chinese garbage out there uses it. Yet seemingly none of them can get the turret cap markings to line up with the indicator. lol
It is interesting how the warranty is almost always either the first or second thing brought up whenever someone talks about Vortex.
You could definitely interpret that a lot of different ways.
You could interpret that as excellent customer service.
... or constantly breaking scopes.
You could definitely interpret that a lot of different ways.
You could interpret that as excellent customer service.
... or constantly breaking scopes.
Dude, sorry you are so butt-hurt but I still stand behind my “user error” claim.
A physically faulty scope CANNOT be fixed over the phone. Having your turrets maxed out, as you have identified in your Gen1, is not a manufacturing defect but a result of improper scope setup. Now if your complaint was Vortex should have written better instructions on how to proper use the mechanism then we could discuss how “user error” could better be avoided. But to say it isn’t “user error” and bash a company that, by your own admission, employees the Mesiah of scope technicians who can turn water into wine and remanufacture a scope over the phone is just not fair.
All mechanical design are different, scopes are no exception. It is always best to check the manufactures specifications for the materials and design incorporated in their product before ASSUMING you know better because you own a completely different product.
Both problems were solved by you simply making the proper corrections to the user intended adjustments. That by definition is User Error. To say it isn’t USER ERROR shows arrogance and vanity. To say it isn’t User Error because one scope IS NOT the same as the other scope is ignorant and/or stupid. Maybe you are best utilizing the services of a qualified gunsmith to properly mount and adjust your scopes so you don’t encounter so more “faulty” versions.
Recarding the PST with the loose lens. No where did I say Vortex was perfect or that this was a User Error and you deflecting is not going to change what constitutes User Error vs a Defect.
Perhaps if you are this sensitive you should avoid speaking in public under the assumption that you are always right because that will only lead to your continued disappointment.
I am glad that you haven’t misadjusted you Kahles and that it is working well for you.
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Yes it's food for trolls, fan boys and haters.
The MR-10 by USO was at least 99.4% perfect. I like the 2 Vortex scopes, I have but whatever magic USO was putting in the 1.8-10 was incredbible.
Look man, we can go on and on and on about this business, but at the end of the day, you don't know shit. Asserting what you think you know I did or did not do, as stated before, doesn't make you correct. You don't know me, my background or anything else, so to continue to drum on and on about this issue isn't going to prove anyone right or wrong. I will continue to question the mechanical robustness of Vortex's optics and you will continue to defend them. I will continue to inform folks of my personal experiences with Vortex's products and so will you.
I get it. You own a bunch of Vortex scopes and you want to make sure you've made sound purchases. That's completely understandable. Just remember the next time you're out shooting, make sure you tighten those elevation turret set screws!
To the guy who witnessed some Kahles turrets slip. That's fucking awesome. Thank you for the anecdote.
I had two of my three elevation turret screws loose at the end of shooting just yesterday... They didn't move today at all but it's now on the pre-shoot checklist for that scope.
If it helps, once properly torqued, my turret screws haven’t moved after 7 matches and 1100 rounds. Have tweeked zero several times but only after switching to different ammo and once torqued have remained solid.
You are right, we could go on and on and that I don’t know anything about you. You laughable make the assumption yourself of which you have accused me. I could care less, I have thicker skin than you do apparently. I own only 1 Vortex scope of which I have very familiar with it intended opperatuon per the informationprovided by the manufacture. Please keep in mind I don’t need to know about you nor do I care to know about you. You yourself have provided all the details needed in your description of your lroblem and the fix. You have also made it clear that your anecdote regarding your Vortex experience is more valuable than someone else’s anecdote regarding their Kahles experience, even after you yourself described the problem being resolved by properly adjusting the user adjustments on your 2 different Razors. You don’t have to like Vortex or buy Vortex and you will probably never take responsibility for your issues but I am hoping most here simply see your “issues” for what they are.
Good luck with your future scope happiness.
I agree 100% with Jafo96. Falex has been nothing but a vortex troll for a number of years now. He has admitted that he personally has had two supposed issues with Vortex scopes that were not issues at all. My guess is that he is butt hurt that vortex didnt give him new scopes for his user error. In his head he is convinced that the scopes were broke and they should have given him new ones. Yet admitted with CUSTOMER SERVICE phone help the scopes were fine. It's either this or he is an entitled millennial that started shooting PRS and asked Vortex to sponsor him and they said no. So now Vortex is evil because they dont realize how great he is.
Chris
You are full of it Dude. Get over yourself. Your good friend had a turret issue on his TT last year at the South Dakota match. It hurt him the whole first day. He normally finishes top 5 at that match and if I remember correctly I dont think he ended up in the top 30.
Wow. That is crazy. I have a couple of TT's and cannot imagine the turret slipping short of user error.
I am curious how TT treated him. Did they fix his problem? What kind of time frame?
would you send him my username and ask him to PM me as I would like to discuss it with him. It is the first TT I have ever heard of having a problem like that.
What is really quite funny, years ago, when the PST line was first introduced, WELL before the first one got into anybodies hands, I suggested caution.
There were INSTANT fanboys, talking about the PST being a game changer (in a way, they were) and they were 2500 dollar scopes for 1000 bucks.
I kept mentioning Philippine manufacture, folks told me that I didn't know what the fuck I was talking about (I lived there for 5 1/2 years).
Some of them were downright hysterical in their devotion to a product that wasn't even being delivered and was late to the party. Remember, they stopped production to address an issue (to their immense credit).
People accused me of heresy and Vortex hate and said I was bashing them.
I wasn't. I was trying to be objective.
I had personal knowledge of the habits of the Filipino workforce. I kept telling them, there is no free lunch, if you are offering all the bells and whistles, you are compromising somewhere.
But, Vortex and the PST WERE in fact, game changers. They brought out a feature packed tactical scope with every box checked (at the time), although some things, like the shim based zero stop were a bit funky. Still, they were well designed, good looking scopes that for the most part functioned as they should.
Everyone else had to play catch-up. Some were more successful than others. New manufacturers have popped up, following a similar business model, offering scopes to compete with what Vortex offers.
The Gen II PST is a dandy scope, from a great company.
They are not perfect, because, as noted, compromises must be made.
They have really nice glass, great turrets, they seem to track, but durability may be questionable.
Then look at the XTR II (excluding the 2-10 and 1-8 LOW made scopes).
Also Philippine manufacture. Meh glass, meh turrets, they track and are built like a tank.
Pick your poison or spend more.
If you want to check all the boxes and have the durability (still compromising) you're going to have to go at least another 500-600 if not more.
There were INSTANT fanboys, talking about the PST being a game changer (in a way, they were) and they were 2500 dollar scopes for 1000 bucks.
I kept mentioning Philippine manufacture, folks told me that I didn't know what the fuck I was talking about (I lived there for 5 1/2 years).
Some of them were downright hysterical in their devotion to a product that wasn't even being delivered and was late to the party. Remember, they stopped production to address an issue (to their immense credit).
People accused me of heresy and Vortex hate and said I was bashing them.
I wasn't. I was trying to be objective.
I had personal knowledge of the habits of the Filipino workforce. I kept telling them, there is no free lunch, if you are offering all the bells and whistles, you are compromising somewhere.
But, Vortex and the PST WERE in fact, game changers. They brought out a feature packed tactical scope with every box checked (at the time), although some things, like the shim based zero stop were a bit funky. Still, they were well designed, good looking scopes that for the most part functioned as they should.
Everyone else had to play catch-up. Some were more successful than others. New manufacturers have popped up, following a similar business model, offering scopes to compete with what Vortex offers.
The Gen II PST is a dandy scope, from a great company.
They are not perfect, because, as noted, compromises must be made.
They have really nice glass, great turrets, they seem to track, but durability may be questionable.
Then look at the XTR II (excluding the 2-10 and 1-8 LOW made scopes).
Also Philippine manufacture. Meh glass, meh turrets, they track and are built like a tank.
Pick your poison or spend more.
If you want to check all the boxes and have the durability (still compromising) you're going to have to go at least another 500-600 if not more.
To agree with you, I honestly think this was my exact issue. I just didn't torque them properly so shooter error here...
I've never had a decent scope fail on me, unless you count cheap NcStar airsoft-level knock-off crap.
This thread makes me want to buy a Razor Gen 2 just so I can use it hard and see how much it can take before it fails.
This thread makes me want to buy a Razor Gen 2 just so I can use it hard and see how much it can take before it fails.
good luck...i beat one down shooting 25-30 matches (1 day and 2 day) a year, for 2.5 yrs and mine never missed a beat...some of the turret marking #s are rubbed/scratched off, its been scuffed and banged off barricades, rocks, pipes...buddy dropped his 15+ lb rifle off a table and it landed upside down directly on the scope bell...pretty sure it bent something because it shifted his zero a couple inches, but once rezero'd the scope still tracks and runs perfect, hes been using it since Oct '17 after the tumble
I can't believe this thread is still going, but here I go throwing another iron in the fire to get people all fired up.
Is the AMG as reliable as the razor2?
Is the AMG as reliable as the razor2?
Sounds like he didn't tighten the screws enough like others have done. He said he treats it like a baby. You don;t need to with a Gen II Razor. User error.
Reliable? I'd expect so. You have to ask where 20oz of weight went though and there I'd suggest the durability likely isn't quite the same. Won't see any Vortex SHOT Show reps advocating using the AMG as a bludgeon.
Do yourself a favor and dont listen to a thing this Rex says. His videos are riddled with errors. Hell, in one of his video's he touts USO as being the only 100% USA made scope on the market. When in fact they out source for many major components from overseas(not germany). He also touts them as being the most reliable scopes out there.
I agree with Rob01. Every problem he had with any scope in the marathon of a video you posted is/was user error. Which doesnt surprise me this he has no clue what he is doing. He constantly has a vendetta out for Vortex. My guess........Vortex wouldnt send him a bunch of free stuff to test so now he feels the need to bad mouth them. It amazes me that people understand not to trust magazine writers with 100% confidence with what they write, but when it comes to you tubers or simple internet posts some people take it for gospel.
I had a shift in my zero somewhere, yes. Did the rifle get dropped or tampered with or something else let loose - guard screw, rings, suppressor? I don't know. Did the TT turret on my scope fail? I highly doubt it. After discovering I was off (tall grass disguised the height of my misses), I went to the zero board quick, rezeroed, and continued on with the rest of the match without issue. I changed nothing on that rifle besides a quick torque check on all screws and two weeks later went to the Nebraska PRS match and finished second by 1 point. I am running the same scope to this day with no change besides an upgrade to the newer Hawkins Heavy Tactical rings and it's never missed a beat.
In short, I definitely would not say my poor performance at the '17 SD Steel Classic was from a Tangent turret shitting the bed.
Not what I was saying at all. Orkan said a TT turret has never slipped. Since you run an integral rail/ base action and the gun was still shooting bugholes(since you build a great rifle) the only possible answer is that your turrets slipped. Not saying the scope failed at all. Really just pointing out Orkans closed mindedness and arrogance, but then again I guess I am probably preaching to the choir on that subject. TT's are great scopes, are they the best in all categories.......no. Is any scope best in all catagories.......no. Unless of course you ask Orkan.
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His influence on many people's choice in optics utterly amazes us at times...
Honestly, its mind boggling.His influence on many people's choice in optics utterly amazes us at times...
That it is.
I have no idea if he is a competent shot. I only skimmed through his optics video, but not the others.
With optics, he can't tell his ass from an elbow.
ILya
It's interesting how criticizing Vortex makes people so passionate.
I see Eotech, Leupold, IOR, SB, and even Hensoldt criticism turn up, yet none of them ever morph into 6+ page monster threadnaughts.
I see Eotech, Leupold, IOR, SB, and even Hensoldt criticism turn up, yet none of them ever morph into 6+ page monster threadnaughts.
That is so true. I don't understand why Vortex has such a cult like following.
I’ve never owned a Vortex, so I can’t comment. I have never shot in a PRS match and I don’t have a desire to. (Too old to compete with all these young guns lol) What I take from this tread and a lot of others is this- PRS, whether you love it or hate it is good for everyone. It sounds like these guys really put their equipment through its paces and it will force all companies to step their game up and improve the quality of their products. Most shooters aren’t going to put their equipment through the abuse these guys do, so the average shooter might never see some of the problems these guys have with their equipment, but companies will be forced to address these issues. Win Win for everyone.
Hey...Maybe you missed my post above, but I have not yet received a response and was hoping to. I would really like to get in touch with this guy that had a TT fail. I would like to know how the company treated him and how quickly they got him up and running again. Since he is your good friend maybe you can get him to pm me...or give him my phone number if that works better. This is the first TT I have ever heard of failing.
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Never mind. I see the "good friend" you were talking about was T. Stevens. Seeing as he is also a good friend of mine I can actually call him up and see what actually happened...but doesn't look like I have to because he explained it above. NOT a scope fail. Interesting.
My theory is simply market share? I have never owned one, but I wouldn’t mind a Razor or AMG.
Impossible...Glocks are perfect and never break
Full disclosure, ishoot vortex and glock and I'm being a smartass
Full disclosure, ishoot vortex and glock and I'm being a smartass
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I like what you say here Birddog. I was just addressing this very issue in another post. It's easy to get disgruntled when you purchase a high dollar item and it bombs out on you, nobody wants that to happen and we all want to purchase an item that hopefully will never have an issue, but that is not reality. But how we handle ourselves and the situation when it arises is entirely up to us. If you buy a scope and there is an issue, this is a great forum to ask if it's maybe user error or truly an issue with the scope that requires warranty service. I had a Vortex scope crap out on me during an important trip and it sucked, but Vortex provided the best customer service I've experienced yet in their response and that weighs into my opinion of Vortex. Had I received crappy CS and slow turn around it most likely would have tainted me in a way that I would probably have sold the scope and been done with it, but since it is an amazing design and impressive IQ and since Vortex CS was fantastic I am still a happy customer. By and large the Snipers Hide community has been pretty amiable, certainly we have our disagreements and sometimes we defend our point of view vehemently but I think what we are seeing with some of the responses is due to our social media enabled culture, this feeling that we have a soap box and can spew out any kind of vitriolic remarks that make us feel good. I am not a social mediaholic, in fact, the Hide is about the closest I get to Social Media, but I see this in the younger generation especially. One of the best articles I've read on the subject is one entitled We are raising a generation of deluded narcissists by Keith Ablow, it's already 5 years old but probably holds even more weight today. One of the big reasons I do not get caught up in the social media craze is because of my own tendency to voice my opinion, and sometimes in a manner that I later regret because people frustrate me, and people who hold a particular political point of view frustrate me even more, but that is a subject not intended for this forum.
Here's the thing, I am not a Vortex fanboy, I own other scopes, I praise other scopes, the Vortex AMG happens to be a scope that fits my intended purpose very well, if another manufacturer were to make a better scope at the same weight or less it would probably draw my interest (yes, I've owned two March's and they've been great scopes but have their own drawbacks). I don't expect everyone to like the AMG and I realize that some AMG's and Gen II's and... you name it, have gone down, they are still very good scopes backed by a company who stands behind their product. Do more Vortex AMG's or Gen II's go down than do Nightforces or Schmidts or you name the top tier brand of your choice, I do not know, and I don't think anyone truly knows the answer because I doubt any manufacturer is going to release warranty information. I think we can all agree that if you shoot your scope hard enough and long enough it will eventually go down, be it optically, mechanically or electronically and it will require service, if you buy a new scope and it goes down, and you send it in, and it goes down again and again, etc. then I think it's time to look for something else, how many times you can tolerate sending it back for repair is up to you, some of us have low tolerance for this and I think that has been reflected in some of the posts on this thread. If your scope goes down within the first few months and you think that is indicative to the quality then that is your prerogative and if you replace that scope with another brand and it doesn't go down in the first few months then that is great news and you'll probably be happy with that brand. There are also brand loyalists who swear by Company X and Scope X even though there is clear evidence there are issues and problems. I have low tolerance for companies who deny issues exist only to admit it later on, we see this time and again for automobile manufacturers as well as some cell phone manufacturers (ahem Apple!) and it ticks me off because they are taking advantage of a loyal customer base, and I admit that I have had some harsh words at times and have stuck to my tainted point of view for probably too long even after the issues have been addressed, but I also believe in second chances and watch to see how they handle the situation ultimately.
To sum up, I know we can stand our ground probably better than most with some of our backgrounds and we want to voice our opinion or rip on someone who we think is a jerk, but one way I try to control my temper at times especially with forum posts is to think, "how would I respond if he were standing in front of me" and there have been plenty of times where I spent 30 minutes or more writing some vitriolic response only to end up deleting it and rewriting and addressing the issue without being a jerk in return. The delete key can often be your friend
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