I'm starting to look into my next .223 barrel... I'm thinking about a 1:8 to shoot bullets in the 75-80g range. I'm thinking of going 26" for the velocity. Looks like you need to shoot the 80g'ers to get your BC up over .4... What kind of speed is reasonable to expect in a medium .223 load with an 80g bullet? Any kind of "ball-park info" here would be helpful... I don't really want to push it with the pressure... My Hornady manual shows max loads around ~2650fps with Varget and RL-15... Sound about right to you guys? Some "real world" info would be helpful...My goal is to stretch my .223 rem 700 as far as possible -while still keeping loads that are affordable for lots of training. 600 to 800yds would be great -right now my 20" 1:9 really seems to fall apart past 600yds with my 69g smk's...
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Range Report Anybody shooting 80g bullets in .223?
- Thread starter ScottyD
- Start date
9 twist will spin 77 SMKs, Nosler CCs or Hornady 75 BTHPs just fine and give you better overall performance then the 69s from your 20" bbl. Which Rem 700 do you have? What is OAL to touch lands with 69 SMK in your current rifle? Newer Rem 700s have more reasonable freebore dimension. Early 2000s version Rem 700 P I had you couldn't touch lands and have 69 SMK in the case.
8 twist in a custom barrel will work just fine with any bullet you want to use besides the 90s. If you are serious about running the 80gr bullets then have the chamber set up specifically around the 80 gr bullet. Performance will be much better then 2650 fps w/o pressure in a chamber that is optimized for the larger match bullets. 2900 to 2950 would not be unreasonable from a 26" bbl that has chamber setup for the bigger match bullets.
8 twist in a custom barrel will work just fine with any bullet you want to use besides the 90s. If you are serious about running the 80gr bullets then have the chamber set up specifically around the 80 gr bullet. Performance will be much better then 2650 fps w/o pressure in a chamber that is optimized for the larger match bullets. 2900 to 2950 would not be unreasonable from a 26" bbl that has chamber setup for the bigger match bullets.
THANKS for the good info! My .223 rem is a SPS and its only a year old. I do think I have a nice long chamber. A "to ogive" length of 2.000" puts me on the lands. Not sure but my best guess puts my jammed OAL around 2.37"... The best load I've been able to find so far is based off of the factory FGMM 69smk's at an OAL of ~2.25" which works out to be ~1.871 to the Ogive. So I'm currently working with a nice big jump! If I just set a 69smk in a case w/out seating it I get an OAL of ~2.50"...(2.133" to ogive)..
Anyway, I tried a few factory loads w/ 75g bullets and decided (perhaps prematurely) that my barrel was not having it! I may have to have another look at that... Thanks for the explanation about the chamber specific to the 80g bullets. I would be very pleased to get 2900+fps from an 80g bullet with no pressure! -That's kind of what I was hoping to hear! Thanks again for the response.
In the meantime, before I can afford that nice long 1:8 barrel, sounds like it might be worth having one more try with some 75's or even 77's. -And would you recommend that I start jammed when I work those up?
With the altitude advantage you have on me I'd try 75 Berger VLD's, They work in my 1-9 twist tactical R700. 80's have been spotty but seem to work in the summer heat. If you lived closer to sea level and wanted to shoot a solid diet of 80g bullets I'd go 7.5 twist as my favorite bullet is the 80 amax and in my environment an 8 twist may not be a all season shooter. My custom 7 shoots them great and my next tube has been ordered... 7.5 twist with the plan to go 24-25 inches and chambered in 223AI.
Here's a thread on my experiences with the 1-9 and heavy weights.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/108348-223-remington-tactical-owners.html
Here's a thread on my experiences with the 1-9 and heavy weights.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-reloading/108348-223-remington-tactical-owners.html
Well, I run the SMK 80's from a service rifle. I don't know if this info will help you but my bbl is a 1/7.7 twist. A true 1/8 should handle the 80 with no problem. Add another 6" (that's what she said!!) to the tube and you're in business. I seat my just touching the lands and had the best scores at the long line this past season. I'm not close to 2900, but you get them moving that fast and then tell some service rifle shooters how much speed you're getting and watch their heads explode! But remember, the fastest bullet is not always the most accurate. Good luck and good shooting!
DOug
DOug
Even with the 80's getting past 600 is going to test your wind reading skills. I've shot a bunch of 77's and 80's and while the 80's have a significant BC advantage, I found the 77's to be easier to find an accurate load, even mag length from an AR.
Has anyone shot 90's from a .223 bolt gun? Or do they give up too much velocity?
Has anyone shot 90's from a .223 bolt gun? Or do they give up too much velocity?
SD,
True 1/8 twist works for the 80s, some folks go 1/7.7 just to make sure. To make 1k at HR, most folks try to get an MV at 2900 or better. which keeps you above 1300 f/s at 1k if the bullet BC is good. This can be done with fairly easily with the right powder (VV N-550 or PP 2000 MR) and is barrel dependent. The 80s all load past mag length. Minimum barrel length is usually 26", but 30" will give an extra 50 f/s for the cost of the extra barrel length.
DC,
90s give up too much initial velocity and require a twist rate faster than 1/8.
HTH,
DocB
True 1/8 twist works for the 80s, some folks go 1/7.7 just to make sure. To make 1k at HR, most folks try to get an MV at 2900 or better. which keeps you above 1300 f/s at 1k if the bullet BC is good. This can be done with fairly easily with the right powder (VV N-550 or PP 2000 MR) and is barrel dependent. The 80s all load past mag length. Minimum barrel length is usually 26", but 30" will give an extra 50 f/s for the cost of the extra barrel length.
DC,
90s give up too much initial velocity and require a twist rate faster than 1/8.
HTH,
DocB
Thanks for sharing all that wisdom guys!
Niles: thanks for the link to that other thread. Good info there! So, thinner air at altitude allows me to get away with a little more as far as heavy bullets in my 1:9? Is there a simple explanation for that? 5000ft is the LOWEST I've been shooting so far...
Doug: "that's what she said!" Nice one! -That had me laughing. Thanks for the input...
Damoncali: I hear ya: anything past 600 is still quite a stretch for the .223 in the breeze, but its fun to try... Those 77's are sounding better and better -especially since they're relatively inexpensive...
DocB: Dang, I hadn't even thought about the mag length issue... It would be nice to keep them feeding in my AI mags -looks like that limits me to about 2.5" OAL... And now you've got me thinking 26" isn't enough!
Overall, it sounds like you guys are telling me there's still some hope for my 1:9. I like the sounds of that. It would be great if I found a 75 or 77g that shot well. I think that'll be my next project...
Niles: thanks for the link to that other thread. Good info there! So, thinner air at altitude allows me to get away with a little more as far as heavy bullets in my 1:9? Is there a simple explanation for that? 5000ft is the LOWEST I've been shooting so far...
Doug: "that's what she said!" Nice one! -That had me laughing. Thanks for the input...
Damoncali: I hear ya: anything past 600 is still quite a stretch for the .223 in the breeze, but its fun to try... Those 77's are sounding better and better -especially since they're relatively inexpensive...
DocB: Dang, I hadn't even thought about the mag length issue... It would be nice to keep them feeding in my AI mags -looks like that limits me to about 2.5" OAL... And now you've got me thinking 26" isn't enough!
Overall, it sounds like you guys are telling me there's still some hope for my 1:9. I like the sounds of that. It would be great if I found a 75 or 77g that shot well. I think that'll be my next project...
I use 80 SMKs out of my WOA service rifle at 600 & 1000. Of course being a service rifle it's a 20 in barrel. 1:7, I think you really need 1:7 for 80s and above.
When in doubt go faster. I never heard of the benefits of a 1:8 over the 1:7.
When in doubt go faster. I never heard of the benefits of a 1:8 over the 1:7.
1:7 223AI...love the 80 A-Max.
I did have a 26" 1:9 factory Savage 223 barrel that got 2915fps with 24.5gr Varget and a 75 A-Max; on paper it had a stability factor of 1.01 but it shot about 0.7MOA out to 200yd.
I did have a 26" 1:9 factory Savage 223 barrel that got 2915fps with 24.5gr Varget and a 75 A-Max; on paper it had a stability factor of 1.01 but it shot about 0.7MOA out to 200yd.
Shooting 80 grain A-maxes. 22 inch barrel, .223ai, 1 in 8 twist, 26 grains of Varget yeilds 2830 fps and shoots sub out MOA to 600 yards. Had a 3 shot group at 966 yards that was a little over 5 inches. Wind effects a lot out past 600. No pressure signs with this load.
Eddie
Eddie
I shoot the 80 amax exclusively out of my cut down .223. I'm running them at 2550 out of my 10" 7 twist with AA2520. Just bought 600 more.
high temps (helps a little) and/or lower BP pressure (high altitude helps a lot) make it easier to stabilize bullets. I have done a lot of testing on my 1:9 twist barrels and using JBM
JBM - Calculations - Stability
and have been successful getting bullets to stabilize down to the low 1.1 range as long as they were jammed or +.005 into the lands. Using that info and keeping things greater than 1.4, I need a 7.5 twist for 80 a-max for all year enjoyment on my next build.
Ptaylor,
Very NICE looking set-up you've got there! Thanks for the pic. So, I assume you are getting those 80g A-max's to feed just fine in your AI mag? Are they a pretty tight fit? And are your loads jammed or jumping?
Very NICE looking set-up you've got there! Thanks for the pic. So, I assume you are getting those 80g A-max's to feed just fine in your AI mag? Are they a pretty tight fit? And are your loads jammed or jumping?
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Niles,
Thanks again for the info. I just ordered some smk 77's and some nosler 77's to see what my 20" 1:9 will do with them. Do you have any powder recommendations? Right now all I've got handy is RL15. Sounds like I might as well start load development with the 77's jammed, eh? What's your theory on getting heavies to stabilize "as long as they were jammed..." ? Does a jammed bullet get a little more spin than a jump?
Thanks again for the info. I just ordered some smk 77's and some nosler 77's to see what my 20" 1:9 will do with them. Do you have any powder recommendations? Right now all I've got handy is RL15. Sounds like I might as well start load development with the 77's jammed, eh? What's your theory on getting heavies to stabilize "as long as they were jammed..." ? Does a jammed bullet get a little more spin than a jump?
RL15, Varget, 8208XBR, Ramshot TAC...probably a few others that work great.
24.0gr Varget with a 75 HPBT or 77 SMK/CC seems to be a very solid load, as does 23.5-23.8gr 8208XBR.
Cool. Thanks for that. I've been digging around and it seems like varget is pretty close to the RL15 that I've got sitting here. Would you agree? 24g's of RL15 was giving me about 2750fps with 69smk's in my 20" 1:9....
Interested in this, i tried 25.3 of varget and 25 rl15 so far with 69 smk, no good, 1 moa, trying 77 smk next. Its a new barrel, 1-7 twist 26" McGowan match in a Savage 10 FP.
Cant say I have a theory, they just seem to work when jammed and same goes for nosler 80 CC's. If I jump the cc's the groups open and I am not sure I even tried jumping the 75 berger vld.
I have been using Varget and H4895.
not a single feeding issue, very slick. room to spare in the mag. I'm jumping them. I easily reach 600 yards without issue. I'm tempted to play around with the berger 90's. but from a cost standpoint the 80amax is impossible to beat.
Quick update: I tried some 77smk's and 77g Noslers jammed w/ 23.5, 24.0, and 24.5g's of RL-15 in my 20" 1:9... No love for the Noslers. The targets show that there may be some hope for the smk's on the slower end (~2600fps)... Then I found some 73g Bergers! WHOOOO-AHHHH! I've never seen this rifle print groups so tight! What a good feeling! Jammed with 24.5g's of RL-15 gives me about 2830fps and nice tight 5 shot 100yd groups that are one ragged hole! I think I have a winner! I'm still going to try some 75's if/when I find some, but those Bergers suddenly made my .223 WAY more fun to shoot, and makes me think it'll be OK to hang onto my 1:9 barrel a little bit longer. I'm so impressed with the Bergers, now I feel like I have to try them in my 6.5cm! This is gonna get expensive!
Thanks again for the help guys!
Thanks again for the help guys!
First, I'll admit I'm a relative newb to loading, so I'm all ears when it comes to suggestions from you guys... But I thought I read that jammed was a good place to start load development when looking for pressure signs. Pressure is only going to drop as you come off the lands to start fiddling with seating depth, right? I had no good reason to start anyplace else, and Niles mentioned: "have been successful getting bullets to stabilize down to the low 1.1 range as long as they were jammed or +.005 into the lands"....
I've got a few of those 77's left to play with. What would you recommend?
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At sea level/29.92" Hg/59F/0% RH, a 77gr Nosler @ 2700fps (should be easily achievable from a 20" barrel) has a stability factor of 1.43 from a 1:9 barrel; at 5000' ASL with other environmentals the same, stability jumps to 1.72.
I think starting your load testing with bullets touching the lands (or max mag length if you can't seat to lands and feed from the magazine) is good so you figure out an effective max charge for pressure. After that, I'd personally try the charge weight that looked the best with OALs from your starting point down to AR mag length (~2.225") to find best accuracy. 77s are VERY jump friendly and I suspect you'll find best accuracy with either the SMK or Nosler somewhere between AR mag length and the lands.
I think starting your load testing with bullets touching the lands (or max mag length if you can't seat to lands and feed from the magazine) is good so you figure out an effective max charge for pressure. After that, I'd personally try the charge weight that looked the best with OALs from your starting point down to AR mag length (~2.225") to find best accuracy. 77s are VERY jump friendly and I suspect you'll find best accuracy with either the SMK or Nosler somewhere between AR mag length and the lands.
I run a rock creek 21.75" 7 twist with 80's, using varget I am topping out around 2780ish just past max book powder weights and with H4895 I am around 2820ish while remaining inside book weights. I am using 80 A-Max and 80 nosler CC's... at my air density I am at the ragged edge of supersonic at 1000y with the A-Max but I am 960' ASL and you should have an advantage there in CO.
Niles,
Any idea how long your throat/freebore is in your Rock tube?
Also, I've seen you have experience with the 700 Tactical 1:9 in 223...does it have a stupid long throat like 700s in 308, or is it closer to the SAAMI spec of 0.025"?
Thanks!
Any idea how long your throat/freebore is in your Rock tube?
Also, I've seen you have experience with the 700 Tactical 1:9 in 223...does it have a stupid long throat like 700s in 308, or is it closer to the SAAMI spec of 0.025"?
Thanks!
Sorry for the delay
I don't have the chamber specs on the Rock as I bought it used but I can tell you that it has a .251 neck as that is marked on the barrel and with 80 amax I am at 2.495" which works great with AICS mags and the R700 tactical is almost as long, IIRC I was running 75 berger VLDs around 2.475ish but Remington seems to have different chambers for different rifles as my 5r 223 is significantly shorter... almost like a 5.56 vs 223 chamber and that may be what they are doing.
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