F T/R Competition AR15 for F T/R

ARP

ARP

Predators NightMare
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Minuteman
Mar 2, 2008
955
6
Greenwood, AR
#1
Question:
I am a bit of a gas gun nut. Just how silly is it to shoot these matches using a 223 in the AR platform.

Background:
I made an error a while back and bought an AR15 in the 6mm RAT caliber for shooting in the F Class, but then realized later after I read all the rules involved that the class that I actually wanted to shoot in was the F T/R and there are caliber restrictions in this for 223 or 308. Now I have an excellent rifle ( pic below ) that was purpose bought in error that is just collecting dust and I have to decide if I want to sell or trade that one or the upper and reloading stuffs to get one that will be legal for the F T/R. If I was going to shoot in the F Class, I believe I will be using a purpose built bolt gun

Thanks

5037.jpg
 
#2
Re: AR15 for F T/R

Although my f-class experience is limited, .223 ARs have proven themselves to be competitive in the F/TR class from what I have seen. Is it the best possible platform? Probably not, but with a skilled shooter driving, they can definitely bring home the bacon.
 
#3
Re: AR15 for F T/R

ARP, since F-Class competition rules do not allow feeding from the magazine, you are probably going to be better off shooting 3-gun matches or possibly this new F-Practical class I am hearing rumblings about.
It can be done and you might be able to become competitive, but I suspect you will be turning your semi-auto into a semi-single shot to get the job done (i.e. long throating the chamber so you can shoot 80s or 90s...then it will be longer than mag length, etc)
 
#4
Re: AR15 for F T/R

I look at it as shooting what I want to and the devil with the rest. Back in my USPSA/IPSC days I shot a 45 ACP, I was never going to be truly competitive against the 38 soopers, but I was shooting what I wanted and having fun so if you want to shoot an 223 AR do it.

The only thing you might need to get will be a single feed follower, F class follows the HP slow fire rules and calls for single feeding.
 
#5
Re: AR15 for F T/R

the 6mmRAT is a fantastic caliber, just shoot it in open class instead of TR. I use an AR 15 in 6mmAR in Open 600yds and under and a 243AI for the long range matches.
it is not silly at all, if you can hold 1/2 MOA you are competitive.
 
#6
Re: AR15 for F T/R

The magazine that you see in the blue rifle in the pic is a bob sled so I knew that it would be single loaded even though I can run the 107 SMKs from mag length in the RAT. I honestly don't mind single loading the AR that much. It is still an AR platform to me.

I already have a full set of three gun gear also and I will be trying that competition arena also in the near future, but first I am going to take one of my 5.56 rifles and compete in the two man team shoot at the summer mammoth.

While I don't see myself as being any sort of competition in any of the matches, I have seen what type of rigs many of the F Class guys are running and I just feel out of place really bad if I shot in that one. I am basically just a hillbilly coyote shooter who is looking for an outlet and some fun.
 
#8
Re: AR15 for F T/R

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARPredatorHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While I don't see myself as being any sort of competition in any of the matches, I have seen what type of rigs many of the F Class guys are running and I just feel out of place really bad if I shot in that one. I am basically just a hillbilly coyote shooter who is looking for an outlet and some fun. </div></div>

Here's the way I see it...

Who gives a dang what everyone else is shooting? Shoot against YOURSELF, first foremost and always. Strive to shoot better than last time, better than your personal average, your personal best. You don't have any control over how anybody else does.

People sniggered when I showed up @ my first 'big' match with a stock factory rifle, suitably modified with a lot of duct tape to raise the cheek piece and extend the LOP. I bore it with good humor, joking about it being 'redneck chic'. The laughing didn't last very long after the first couple days results were posted.

Is an AR my first choice for F/TR, regardless of caliber? Not really... but I would almost bet that my WOA spacegun (26" .223 Rem 1-7" tw that just *loves* B82BTs) could cause the traditionalists a fair amount of heartburn in a mid-range match once I settled down and learned how to 'drive' it right...

Take the gun as it is to a match or three, hell shoot a whole season with it *as is* and then decide if you like the sport enough to commit to a dedicated build. You'll be that much more familiar with the gun you have, and you'll have a much better idea of what you really want vs. what you need for the next build.

Monte
 
#10
Re: AR15 for F T/R

ARP:

A gas gun wouldn't be my first choice for F-Class, but at ranges out to 600 meters, you really shouldn't be *that* much behind the power curve. Heck, at 600 meters, the .308's and .223's are shooting virtually identical scores to the F-Open guys.

Probably my main issue with the semi-auto would be what sort of bashing the cycling process would do to my precious match brass... but I've been accused of being somewhat... er... neurotic about the condition of my brass
grin.gif


Darrell

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If all else fails I'm sure you will have tons of F class guys wanting you to paint their guns for em.
wink.gif
</div></div>

That's a fact!! LOL
 
#11
Re: AR15 for F T/R

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Probably my main issue with the semi-auto would be what sort of bashing the cycling process would do to my precious match brass... but I've been accused of being somewhat... er... neurotic about the condition of my brass
grin.gif
</div></div>

Neurotic doesn't even begin to cover it...
 
#12
Re: AR15 for F T/R

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neurotic doesn't even begin to cover it... </div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">Silence!!!</span>... infidel......
 
#13
Re: AR15 for F T/R

The best score I've shot at a 600yrd F/TR match was with my Dpms 18" .308 with 155smk. And, the first time I ever went a guy was shooting a JP ent. 204ruger and outshot some of the bolt guns.
 
#14
Re: AR15 for F T/R

Arppredatorhunter,
I have just gotten started into the FTR and F open shooting. I use my stock .223 for FTR and use my 6 Rat for F open. I shoot them both from a Harris bipod. It is great fun and stating to put up some decent scores. I have seen quite a few ARs in FTR, but not so much in F open (except for me). If you're serious about winning, you need dedicated equipment. But if you're liike me and most of the guys shooting, you are doing it for fun and testing your own skills. I don't have the extra cash to buy the equipment the top notch guys do, but use what I have and haves lot of fun. I say go ahead and shoot one and see how it goes.
 
#15
Re: AR15 for F T/R

I'd just shoot what you have in F-Open and not worry. If you want to shoot 223REM in F-TR then you might as well get a 26" barrel to get the most out of it. I shoot a 20" AR with a 10x scope and shoot in the 570s mostly. This is about 15 points lower than my heavy bolt gun with a 24x scope.
 
#16
Re: AR15 for F T/R

On the mid-range course, a good Spacegun in .223 is competitive with most of the other calibers, especially the .308's. It is easy to load good loads for it and it is cheaper than the other calibers, so you can practice more for the same money. I shoot HP Prone, and we shoot right along side the F-Class people. At the Alaska Mid-Range regionals last year, a All Guard shooter from outside won with a 591-29X, shooting a .223 and I took second with a 591-26X, also shooting a .223. There were 6's and 6.5's and other caliber's, but even the 3rd place, another All Guard shooter, used a .223. When you go to Long Range, you will be at a disadvantage, and either you change to a .308, to stay in F-TR, or switch to open and use whatever you want. An old (older than me) shooter who shoots all over the world, told me that it's not the arrow that count's so much as it is the Indian shooting the arrow. Good luck
 
#19
Re: AR15 for F T/R

I like the ergos of the AR system.

I use Spaceguns for F Class. A White Oak Armament .223 in F-T/R and a Whitley 6ARturbo40º in F-Open.

WOA1.jpg


4-6download009.jpg


I don't think the bullet cares how the bolt is manipulated, be it by gas or by hand.
 
#20
Re: AR15 for F T/R

update on AR Spacegun. On 6/10/11 I won the Alaska Mid-Range HP Prone Regional championship with my .223 Spacegun, with a 593-35X and the 2nd place was shooting a boltgun and shot a 593-29X and 3rd shot a 585-16X with a .260 boltgun. You're not losing anything by using a .223 spacegun out to 600 yards.
 
#22
Re: AR15 for F T/R

<span style="text-decoration: underline">So you are interesting in shooting F-T/R with an AR-15 Platform. </span> JJ Conway the guru of F-Class shooting wrote an article for Precision Shooting magazine some time ago. It was titles “223 X 80 = 1000”. A play on words for sure! JJ Conway is a World Champion F-Class shooter and he has many cleans at 1000 yards shooting his AR-15 space gun. His rifle has a 30 inch barrel and 1:8 twist. I presently own both of JJ Conway's Space-gun rifles. I am coaching two young shooters by the name of Jason Laa (16 years old) and Jimmy Hennigar (12 years old). Jason and Jimmy have shot many F-T/R matches with the AR-15 Space guns. Jason currently holds the Junior NRA National Aggregate Record for 800, 900 & 1000 yards. Jason shot a group at 800 yards during the 2010 Rocky Mountain Palma matches that you could put a dollar-bill over - (148-8X). Keep in mind the 800 yard F-T/R X-Ring is 4 inches in diameter and the 10-Ring is only 8 inches diameter. The load Jason and Jimmy shoot is the 80 Sierra or Berger bullet in a Winchester Case loaded with 25.3 grains of Varget utilizing Remington 7-1/2 primers. The rifle’s chamber is a Bill Wylde chamber – 2.445 inches. I set the bullet back about .003 of an inch off the lands and groves. The barrels are Melionited for strength and ware resistance. But most important, I utilize an additional weight device in the rear of a modified AR-15 Bolt carrier that delays the rear movement of the bolt which in turn allows the bullet to clear the 30 inch barrel’s muzzle before any rearward movement unlocks the bolt’s locking lugs. At sea level this load is pushing the 80 grain bullet about 2925 feet per second. I have not experienced and over pressure indications with this load. However, you should work up to a safe load for your own rifle. I have shot that same bullet and load at the 1200 yard Elk Gong at the Whittington Center and hit it, no problem. Very weak sound, but I did hit it with no problem. I am sure the lethality is lacking at that range and tactically I prefer the 338.
Check out the South Texas Marksmanship Training Center’s web page for photos of Jason and Jimmy Shooting and other technical info on <span style="text-decoration: underline">mirage</span> and <span style="text-decoration: underline">reading the wind</span>, etc.. [southtexasshooting.org ] -
Click on "Training" and them click “Long-Range”

Click on "Multimedia" and then click "Photos" / "Jr. Champ"

Click on " Multimedia" and then click on Studies" / Mierage" or "Wind Reading"

Sgt Major, US Army (ret)
George Becquet
 
#23
Re: AR15 for F T/R

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SNAFUBAR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ARP, since F-Class competition rules do not allow feeding from the magazine, you are probably going to be better off shooting 3-gun matches or possibly this new F-Practical class I am hearing rumblings about.
It can be done and you might be able to become competitive, but I suspect you will be turning your semi-auto into a semi-single shot to get the job done (i.e. long throating the chamber so you can shoot 80s or 90s...then it will be longer than mag length, etc) </div></div>
A 223 Wylde chamber will easily swallow a cartridge loaded with an 80 grain bullet seated .01 or so off the lands and still shoot mag length ammo like it's going out of style.

Highpower service rifle shooters have known this and been doing it for years.
 
#24
Re: AR15 for F T/R

You need to learn a little more about F/TR most of what you just said is of little use. I will just point out 1 thing. In F/TR the 800 yard target is the same as the 1000 its a 5 inc x and a 10 inch 10 shows how little you know lol. Aww i cant resist <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt Maj Becquet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline">So you are interesting in shooting F-T/R with an AR-15 Platform. </span> JJ Conway the guru of F-Class shooting wrote an article for Precision Shooting magazine some time ago. It was titles “223 X 80 = 1000”. A play on words for sure! JJ Conway is a World Champion F-Class shooter and he has many cleans at 1000 yards shooting his AR-15 space gun. His rifle has a 30 inch barrel and 1:8 twist. I presently own both of JJ Conway's Space-gun rifles. I am coaching two young shooters by the name of Jason Laa (16 years old) and Jimmy Hennigar (12 years old). Jason and Jimmy have shot many F-T/R matches with the AR-15 Space guns. Jason currently holds the Junior NRA National Aggregate Record for 800, 900 & 1000 yards. Jason shot a group at 800 yards during the 2010 Rocky Mountain Palma matches that you could put a dollar-bill over - (148-8X). Keep in mind the 800 yard F-T/R X-Ring is 4 inches in diameter and the 10-Ring is only 8 inches diameter. The load Jason and Jimmy shoot is the 80 Sierra or Berger bullet in a Winchester Case loaded with 25.3 grains of Varget utilizing Remington 7-1/2 primers. The rifle’s chamber is a Bill Wylde chamber – 2.445 inches. I set the bullet back about .003 of an inch off the lands and groves. The barrels are Melionited for strength and ware resistance. But most important, I utilize an additional weight device in the rear of a modified AR-15 Bolt carrier that delays the rear movement of the bolt which in turn allows the bullet to clear the 30 inch barrel’s muzzle before any rearward movement unlocks the bolt’s locking lugs. At sea level this load is pushing the 80 grain bullet about 2925 feet per second. I have not experienced and over pressure indications with this load. However, you should work up to a safe load for your own rifle. I have shot that same bullet and load at the 1200 yard Elk Gong at the Whittington Center and hit it, no problem. Very weak sound, but I did hit it with no problem. I am sure the lethality is lacking at that range and tactically I prefer the 338.
Check out the South Texas Marksmanship Training Center’s web page for photos of Jason and Jimmy Shooting and other technical info on <span style="text-decoration: underline">mirage</span> and <span style="text-decoration: underline">reading the wind</span>, etc.. [southtexasshooting.org ] -
Click on "Training" and them click “Long-Range”

Click on "Multimedia" and then click "Photos" / "Jr. Champ"

Click on " Multimedia" and then click on Studies" / Mierage" or "Wind Reading"

Sgt Major, US Army (ret)
George Becquet


</div></div>
 
#26
Re: AR15 for F T/R

done some more looking JJ conway has never shot a clean 1000 yard srore Shawn Aresn whom i know holds the Natl. record with a 199. So what happen to JJ cleans whitch would be a 200. SGT MAJ. i am calling to a lier and a fraud. Your full of shit. prove me wrong and i will apoligze. But i bet we never see you agian. BTW i hold a few TExas state titles and since you also are in texas. you have not beat me. So again your full of shit.Please call me on this and prove me wrong olololololloolollo
 
#30
Re: AR15 for F T/R

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nesikabay</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> done some more looking JJ conway has never shot a clean 1000 yard srore Shawn Aresn whom i know holds the Natl. record with a 199. So what happen to JJ cleans whitch would be a 200. SGT MAJ. i am calling to a lier and a fraud. Your full of shit. prove me wrong and i will apoligze. But i bet we never see you agian. BTW i hold a few TExas state titles and since you also are in texas. you have not beat me. So again your full of shit.Please call me on this and prove me wrong olololololloolollo</div></div>

Apology? I wouldn't hold my breath... Just another internet warrior who calls folks liars from the comfort of their lazy boy chair.

I believe the documents above should suffice that what I was saying is true. As I coached this junior shooter...
 
#32
Re: AR15 for F T/R

Thanks for most of the replies. I can do without the name calling. Does anybody have any information about the "spaceguns" competing in the F Open class and how do they fare there ? If I choose to keep this RAT then it will be in that open class.
 
#34
Re: AR15 for F T/R

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARPredatorHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for most of the replies. I can do without the name calling. Does anybody have any information about the "spaceguns" competing in the F Open class and how do they fare there ? If I choose to keep this RAT then it will be in that open class.</div></div>
the type of rifle doesn't matter, only the cal and weight. I shoot an AR15 in 6mm AR in open class and do just fine, if your rifle and you can stay in the 1/2 min and read the wind properly, you will be a contender.
cheers.
 
#35
Re: AR15 for F T/R

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nesikabay</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> done some more looking JJ conway has never shot a clean 1000 yard srore Shawn Aresn whom i know holds the Natl. record with a 199. So what happen to JJ cleans whitch would be a 200. </div></div>

Not trying to put any more fuel on the fire... but there are probably lots of clean scores shot at matches that are either a) Approved not Registered, so no Nat'l Records, or b) the match director was too lazy to break out the individual yard lines as separate matches so the only 'Record' was for the Agg, not for any 'cleans' for specific yardages. Just because you don't see a person's name on the NRA records list doesn't necessarily mean they *couldn't* have shot a great score.

Also... not to take anyway from JJ Conway, one of the founding fathers of F-Class in America... but I'm guessing a lot of his 'cleans' probably pre-dated the current target we use today.
 
#36
Re: AR15 for F T/R

Sgt Maj Becquet,
Welcome to the Hide, thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, and please ignore the "Internet Commandos" as you have done so graciously. Congrats on your work with the Junior Shooters, it is great when individuals such as yourself will take the time to work with new shooters, ultimately we all benefit as new shooters come into the sport and push the bounds forward. Best of Luck with your future endevours.

Nesikabay,
I have no idea of your background, but somewhere along the way it is clear that you failed to pick up the basics tenants of civility and respect. Might I suggest that you put forth the time & effort to pick up some, and until you do, refrain from sharing your disrespectful attitude with the rest of us.

Likewise, if you can’t add anything to a thread beyond your rantings, then please do us all a favor, and step away from the keyboard. People benefit from this site thanks to the efforts of individuals like the Sgt Maj who make an effort to share valuable information. Your contributions to this thread on the other hand add no value and actually take away from the value.

Finally, if I saw your disrespectful comments directed toward anyone, especially a military veteran, I would go out of my way to make sure that you never attended any type of shooting event that I had anything to do with. The last thing the shooting sports need are conceited, arrogant, and disrespectful individuals.

I hope and pray that individuals such as the Sgt Maj will continue their efforts to educate and train new shooters who in turn will treat everyone with respect and continue to develop the shooting sports in a positive manner. I also hope that the individuals who run their mouths on the internet, will ultimately cross paths in the real world with someone who will show them the errors of their way!

Best of Luck,
M Richardson
 
#37
Re: AR15 for F T/R

Thanks to everyone for the input and feedback.

In the past I showed up at a number of F-Class matches with an Autoloader and got some interesting looks, though now days I am no longer the lone ranger.

Bolt Guns used to rule the world of precission shooting, but that is obviously starting to change on multiple fronts. Will the Autoloaders ever exceed the Bolt Guns, that is the million dollar question for me?

Personally, as pointed out above, I shoot F-Class Matches to compete against myself. A "win" for me, is an improvement in my score. Yes, I will compare my performance to the other shooters, and I would like to make the top of the score board, but that is not really my motivation for showing up.

Any competative shooting is what you make of it!
M Richardson
 
#38
Re: AR15 for F T/R

INSCOMSMAG, thanks a lot!
smile.gif


I knew ARs were very accurate at short/mid range, but it never ceases to amaze me what the 223 and a well tuned space gun can do even at 1000 yds... the potential is obviously there, quite an eye opener.
 
#39
Re: AR15 for F T/R

The current National record set for a Junior shooter was set 12-04 10by K.Bryan Beem it is 433 12-X. That is for the Palma 800, 900, 1000. So un less he has a Jr. shooter that has shot better than a 433 i am still right. And he is still wrong.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: INSCOMSMAG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
5884674759_af537dcb56.jpg

5884673305_cfe3d47a82.jpg


5885239072_459d9abd7c.jpg

5885237644_7e0010bd56_b.jpg
</div></div>
 
#41
Re: AR15 for F T/R

This reminds me of the line in the Big Lebowski where he tells Walter, "you're not wrong, but you're still an Asshole"

You are rich and own all the best stuff, but you can't buy class.
 
#44
Re: AR15 for F T/R

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nesikabay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but im still right. Sgt Maj has not figured it out yet. I have shot several matches with him and i have shot a few with his Jr. shooters. <span style="text-decoration: underline">He is at a disadvantage i know him. </span></div></div>

Given your posts, I think he IS at a "disadvantage"......by knowing you.
 
#45
Re: AR15 for F T/R

First off I came to F TR Class to get away from stupid shit so knock all the crap off. There are posts here from three members of US National F TR Team ( Including the Team Captain) and non of those said anything negative about the ARs or anyone. Thats the way we want F Class. No BS.

The records shown are for F Class shooting the Palma Course. They are still F Class Records.

We shoot several courses of fire,including Palma ( which is my favorite and I believe hardest course of fire)

As to AR for F TR. Not my first choice but obviously it can be made to work fine. With that said I tend to go with the easiest route to make work and thats the bolt action in 308. Everytime I see a guy run a hot rod system it eventually bites him in the rump. Wait even my basic system bites me once in awhile so use what ever you like. Anotehr guy to talk with who knows the 223 and shoots better than anyone I know is Jerry Tierny. He beats guys at a grand with his 223 all the time

Mike Miller
Vice Captain US F TR Team
 
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