Are Air rifles the pacifier or alternative to ammo availability & cost?

[TOP PREDATOR]

With all the posts about the cost and availability of rimfire ammo, are air rifles the pacifier or temporary solution?

I almost hate to mention it as it's been beaten to death over the last few weeks, but let's face the fact that when / if available, rimfire ammo prices have got a bit silly. Seems like every 6-8 months we go through the same cycle of ammo cost and availability, are air rifles a viable alternative? I've used the rimfire as a low cost way to substitute for centerfire range time, and now thinking of having to ration my ammo stock forthe next year is well kind of pathetic and can't believe the times have dictated having to do so.

So I thought why not going to the air rifle? Just doing some quick browsing,I've seen that there are some very serious air rifle set ups out there, even shotguns. They come in calibers from .17 to .50, even taking down bison! Heck even the competition air rifles rival some of serious rimfire & centerfirerifles in cost and mechanical precision.

I probably never gave it a real consideration as my state doesn't allow air rifle to hunt with, nor are there any real air rifle competition in my area that I am aware of. Plus the thought of an air rifle brings up the toughts of a childish toy - of which obviously these adult air rifles are far from the Red Ryder of Ol'.

Interestingly, after a little more browsing, "serious" air rifles are nothing new, dates back a few centuries, and actually out performed firearms at the time when considering rate of fire and reliability. Putting "big orl arge bore air rifles or air rifle history" into your favorite search engine reveals some pretty interesting (surprising) reading.

A general overview I found interesting: http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/air-guns-history.htm

Perhaps another thing that is holding me back from the air rifle arena is the ego factor - seems kinda nerdy wielding an air rifle or even the thought of putting together an air rifle. After all a "real man" has to shoot alarge magnum with lots of noise, recoil, distance, etc. to prove they are a"real man", right?

Well after the last decade of taking rimfires more seriously than before, I've certainly changed my views on the ego (and cost) of shooting magnums in order to swing the manhood around. A well pieced together rimfire is a performer that reduced cost and abuse to my aging shoulder with surprisingly precise resultson paper, even at further ranges than historically rimfires have been used or thought restricted to a 50 yard gun.

So now I'm rethinking my views on air rifles. Once getting over the ego thing and looked at without bias, these things are pretty interesting and today's air rifle offerings are rather "tacticool". Even the projectiles are rather interesting to say the least ranging from basic BBs and plain lead pellets to more high tech metallic compositions utilizing polymer ballistic tips.

When I run some numbers, I think of going through +/- 4,000 rounds a year X $30.00ish a brick for a mid grade ammo (CCi std Vel) puts me at $240.00 a year. If shooting a higher grade ammo, just to pick a number out of the air of $80.00ish a brick (Wolf Mt), that'd be $640.00 a year without tax or shipping included.

In actuallity, the more I think of it, it's not a step down from the mighty centerfire or the favortie rimfire, just another way of putting holes in paper precisely and consistantly. I've recently been considering building a 1903 springfield, but perhaps will redirect funds to air rifles.

What's your guys and gals take on "adult" air rifles? Any experience out there with them? Is there a low dollar (under $500.00) setup that's working surprisingly well for you for at least 50-100 yards? What's the longest you've stretched them consistantly?

Of course there are the differences / restrictions of springers vs. pneumatics, break barrels vs. fixed, but seriously, what combinations of rifle style and pellets seem to be working for you guys if any of you are using them?

 

[Defusion]

In the Netherlands air-rifles are very popular. Mainly due to restrictions/laws on firearms.
There are some serious 100m competitions, and also kind of tactical-ish matches outdoor (called: field target)
If your not a hunter, there are no outdoor shooting ranges that allow firearms, while air rifles can be used on any private land.

If you do plan on shooting longer ranges, I would suggest PCP for sure. Springers have too much vibration/inconsistency for long ranges. They require quite an investment though, but that is offset by the lower variable cost. I've seen some amazing 100m groups that rival rimfire for sure.
I don't shoot air rifles anymore, but don't have any rimfire availability issues either. If I had a large garden where I could shoot, I probably would again.

Check: http://www.100mairgun.nl/category/Wedstrijdresultaten.aspx (dutch, but the pictures will show you what can be done)

 

[bobtodrick]

I shoot powderburners.
I also have collection of air-rifles.
On a rainy day I can set a target up on my back fence and shoot though my back door.
Can't do that with my .22WMR!
On a cold winters day I can head down to my basement, where I have a 10m shooting lane (10m is the distance at which Olympic air gun competitions are held) and practice my stance, breathing, trigger release...etc.
Can do that with my powderburners.
Ammo (RWS - the good quality competition stuff) is about $9 for a tin of 500. The inexpensive field pellets drops to $5 for 500.
And the ego...I regularly take my airguns to the range. Once I start shooting 1/4" groups at 50yds the powderburner guys usually stop laughing.
A good quality air rifle at 50 yds is more accurate than any but the very best rimfires.
My magnum Weihrauch (magnum is any air rifle shooting at 800fps+) which spits out a .177 pellet at just over 1000 fps will easily take out a rabbit at 75yds.
The only thing missing is the 'BANG'.

 

[Red_SC]

Here you go.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/31...on-kit-177-caliber-polymer-stock-matte-barrel

 

[drhcobra]

check these out

http://www.airforceairguns.com/Default.asp

I got the airforce edge to for teaching the kids but with a scope makes a fun little varmint blaster close to the house. Like bobtodrick I practice in the basement occasionally. I only have target airguns currently but have considered something more powerful.

http://www.airforceairguns.com/CondorSS-s/73.htm

These airforce are a pretty cool design and i think made i usa, I will have another, maybe now is the right time..

 

[SOTA]

I have 1 and I use it all the time. Im sure I have more kills with a air rifle then any thing. I just killed a skunk last week. Its defiantly a valuable tool to have and I highly recommend getting 1

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

good comments and great links. some of those rifles are very serious stuff! probably alot more involved than a possible beginner in air rifles such as myself may want to get into, but still great examples of what can be done.

i pretty much have an idea that i want to stay away from springers, and seen some good things about nitro gas pistons having an advantage over the spring. i'm kind of leaning toward .22 cal

i've seen ones you pump up with a bicycle type pump, and the PCP bottles. i have do do some more digging on these types of rifles, but at face value it appears that these styles are the most powerful and probably the better long distance types. don't know though if they would be a little too complicated for an entry level newbie rifle, i may be over thinking it. i guess you can either go to a filling station, get your own tank and fill from that, or do the hand pump thing. theis appears to be a good link for pumping your own: http://www.pyramydair.com/article/Using_a_hand_pump_May_2006/30 I never would have thought that the pump and possibly having to get adapters would cost that much, do those pumps seem to last a while?

seems like the marauder would be a good starter PCP with enough options on it to do many things with it. also eyeballed a few PCP hammerli, hatsan, a few models of which don't seem too expensive and are repeaters.

seems like the progression of the grades of air rifles are variable pump and Co2 cartridge (like the old bb guns), springer, nitro piston, PCP.

let me throw this out there...what are a few of the "savages" of break barrel air rifles - lower priced, accurate, user friendly and dependable out of the box w / nitro gas piston? i've been eyeballing a crossman venom .22cal, which is obviously a much lower grade rifle than what you guys are using, but any thoughts on those?

are the break barreled ones even worth messing with?

sorry for my ignorance on them and newbie air rifle questions, but it seems you guys know the deal on them.

 

[Onemoretime]

I'm interested as well. I've often thought that Airsoft wouldn't be bad since they have replicas of actual rifles. Not sure what kind of accuracy they'd be capable of but when it comes to just practicing fundamentals and positional shooting I think they'd be excellent. Set up a target with a cut out bullseye for a small net to collect the bb's and you can recycle ammo.

 

[tiNdvenTFHwMdqKW]

check these out

http://www.airforceairguns.com/Default.asp

I got the airforce edge to for teaching the kids but with a scope makes a fun little varmint blaster close to the house. Like bobtodrick I practice in the basement occasionally. I only have target airguns currently but have considered something more powerful.

http://www.airforceairguns.com/CondorSS-s/73.htm

These airforce are a pretty cool design and i think made i usa, I will have another, maybe now is the right time..

How many shots do you get from a PCP Tank?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I have a couple and they do a lot to keep one's skills sharp and crispy.

But even airgun pellets have become unobtanium in a lot of places.

Greg

 

[bobtodrick]

Here is a page of airgun articles that will answer just about any question you can come up with.
All by a guy named Tom Gaylord (b.b. pelletier) who has virtually written the book on airguns. As well he is a successful competitor with the M1 Garand and the 1911.
http://www.pyramydair.com/articles

 

[noeesp]

Air rifles are a good way to get some trigger time for sure. My brother is into them and gave me a RWS 350 mag an I have to say that it is pretty sweet. I have seen people take down a good size hog with them. They can also get very expensive I know my brother has several PCP rifles that were close to 3K

 

[drhcobra]

In the Edge which is target model not adjustable (500fps) I think 50+ shots, it has a small tank. Usually pump up shoot till its out and put it away. I don't know about the other models.

 

[drhcobra]

How many shots do you get from a PCP Tank?

I guess I've never counted how many maybe I'll check this weekend. Don't quote me on that 50+. I think if you were shooting a lot you might want the scuba tank set up, but for me the hand pump works fine.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

In a way I don't like this at all (resorting to air rifles).......I see it as weening Americans off of firearms to an extent.

^^^yeah that popped in my head too.

may have to resort to slingshots and marbles if the current trend keeps up! refusing to do airsoft though.

"wasted" my day off doing the youtube and rifle reviews search thing. man there are some F'd up folks on youtube.

learned a few new things, with a lot of help from the links and info posted above.

looks like PCPs are king, and you can really do some precise shooting with them, even 100 yards.

i guess you can get a good feel for how many shots you have left by the pressure reading on the guage.

 

[tiNdvenTFHwMdqKW]

I guess I've never counted how many maybe I'll check this weekend. Don't quote me on that 50+. I think if you were shooting a lot you might want the scuba tank set up, but for me the hand pump works fine.

Thanks - that's better than I thought. How long does it take to pump it up with the hand pump?

 

[drhcobra]

Thanks - that's better than I thought. How long does it take to pump it up with the hand pump?

I'd say about a minute, they pump up fast at first but the last little bit takes a little work. Keep in mind you take it up to 3000psi so even though the tank is small there's a lot of pressure. I'll check the time this weekend too and post more info and a couple pics to show how the pump hooks up etc...

 

[seanh]

Time to pump? Depends on the pump. The one that I've got for my air arms pro target takes about 10 minutes of pumping to get to pressure. By the time I've finished pumping, I don't want to shoot...this is why I use a scuba tank then have it filled with a compressor.

Arizona Air is good to go, they have airguns from beginner to hunting grade and can answer any question you have. Pyramid Air is good too.


Before you go down the airgun route, know this....they can get very expensive--at least for quality airguns. My Crow mag 3, at the time I got it was around 1200 bucks- gun only, the air arms FT MKIII was around 1500- about 1800 with the tank and adapter http://www.airgunforum.net/agf/index.php?showtopic=35872 (perfect for Rabbit out to 50--this one is the 17# US version) ; the Feinwerkbau 300s running bore- about 600 used 10 years ago http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/tag/feinwerkbau/page/2/ (perfect for dove in the back yard).

want big bore...go with a quackenbush or Jack haley
http://www.southernairgunconversion.com/
http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

 

[JoeMartin]

I have cheap air rifles (.177) pump rifles that I sometimes shoot from 25 yards - in my yard - from the prone position. It's enjoyable but all in all my main interest lay with traditional muzzle loading and archery, and the history of these two sports I've been involved with (shooting, building, collecting) for close to 35 years. I naturally enjoy the rimfire sports and like everyone else, I'm concerned about the ammo shortage. In a way, the shortage does not effect me as much as others because of my other interest. I do think the air-guns are a viable option if one feels they would like to venture down that road during these trying "ammo shortage" times. Who knows, with air-guns you might find something you truly enjoy that can fill the .22 rimfire void at this time.

 

[jbell]

I have been wanting to get back into 10m air rifle again pretty bad all last year but am having a hard time coughing up $3K for an Anschutz or FWB. But hell yes thats a good time! I was big into it back 15 years ago.

 

[seanh]

check these one out...
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Evani...utm_campaign=aa-b-evanix-rainstorm-3d-bullpup

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Evanix_MAX_Bullpup/2727#

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Benjamin_Rogue_ePCP_Air_Rifle/2399

 

[gehrm]

bobtodrick, what air rifle are you using that can shoot 1/4" 50 yd groups? Is it match rifle or a field rifle? Regardless, that is some fine shooting!

Also, what scope are you running?

 

[Rover31]

I have a Marauder in .22. I like it and would not be without it! Takes a little to dial in but no more so than any other rifle. Once set up very accurate, very.

 

[Casey Simpson]

PCP's:
Benjamin Marauder, rifle. (Mrod), from Mak1.
Benjamin Marauder, pistol (Prod).
Benjamin Discovery, rifle.
The English, Turkish, Korean, German and Finnish Pcp types are excellent.

Spring guns:
Weihrauch 100, 90's, are supposed to be good. Unless a scope is spring gun rated, or a damned good one, a spring gun will break it. Some springers are accurate, especially tuned ones, and when shot properly.

Europeans are the air gun experts. Do what they say. I feel the AoA and Pyramid guys, the ones on Youtube at least, are novices.

Do not under-rate the spring guns. They are accurate. Target practice and exterminate house sparrows and starlings with the .17"; squirrels and pigeons with the .22"; large pests beyond 50 yards, the .25".

I used the springer 177 on all the above, and crows. Head shots always are hammers. Squirrels are tough. Body shots and they haul ass, though not too far.

I wanted a pcp and got the Mrod .22. Then, ran upon a deal on a .25 in a custom stock. These things shoot nearly touching at 50 yards - better than any rimfire I've every fired including an Anschutz. Being a veteran firearms shooter, I am pleased with these air guns. The only recurring expense is pellets. The 22 likes Crosman domes which are found at many sporting good stores.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/

 

[ScottyD]

Howdy Hide members. I've been around here for a few years -I've been keeping my mouth shut (low post count) and learning ton about long range precision from you guys (much appreciated!). I come from a competitive air rifle background and I feel plenty qualified to speak up and try to help you guys in this department.

Top Predator: I'm impressed with the research you've done so far and I can say you're definitely on the right track. Just like any gun purchase, you need to start with: What do you want to do with it? Want to shoot paper at 10yds in your basement? -There are a bunch of good air gun choices for that. Want to shoot an Elk? There actually are a few air guns that will do that humanely... Compete in Air Rifle Field Target from 10 to 55yds?... etc...

Want to do some training in your back yard for your next long range tactical comp? -I think there are definitely some great air rifle choices for that.

There are a bunch of calibers available and these guns come in at all kinds of power levels. So it takes some effort to narrow all this down. For example: that AR-looking gun shown higher in this thread is a great 10yd trainer -but it comes at a power level that's not gonna do much for you at 50 to 100yds. I''m going to assume all you guys already have plenty of cash tied up in high-end center-fire guns that you can't shoot as much as you'd like to (limited range access, can't find ammo, lack of free time, cost, whatever...) I'd try to steer you towards the "buy once, cry once" school of thought... Settle into the idea that start-up cost with a good precision air gun is gonna be a little expensive, but then feeding it as much ammo as you want for the rest of your life is going to be NOTHING compared to what you spend on center-fire ammo. If you love shooting, and you're gonna train a lot with your air gun, trust me, its better to invest more in a higher-end air gun up front!

For under 50 yds, there are some good quality spring guns out there (I couldn't in good conscience recommend anything lower end than a RWS, HW/WH, or an AA. Note: Crosman, Gamo, and anything "nitro" NOT on that list). The benefit is that they're self contained: cock it once and get one full power shot. -No feeding it air... no extra charging equipment. But spring guns have some crazy harmonic issues and generally won't shoot well from a bi-pod or from any solid rest. Also don't fall into the "1000+ FPS" marketing BS. You don't want to be near trans-sonic with airgun pellets. Pellets by design (think parachute-like skirt in the back to catch the air blast) have an enormous amount of drag and will not handle the transition through the sonic barrier. For "long range" air gun work the sweet spot for the best balance between "flat" trajectory vs. accuracy is agreed to be in the ballpark of 875-920fps. If you want a spring gun and you want the kind of precision guys around here seem to enjoy, I'd say look at spending $400 or $500 on a used "Air Arms" -their TX200 model is a well proven, competition winner. Some are capable of 1/2" c-t-c 5 shot groups at 50yds -but 1" @ 50 is a more reasonable expectation. Any spring gun (break-barrel) less than $200 is better suited for casual plinking and whacking squirrels at VERY short range, than for any kind of real precision or accuracy training.

The new PCP (Pre-Charged Pnuematic) technology is the best of the best in air guns these days (you fill a gun to somewhere around 3000psi with a hand-pump or from a scuba tank or a compressor). A PCP in .22 is your best bet for 50 to 100yds. Most good quality .22 PCP's will come with a power setting in the ball-park of 30fpe (think 875-920fps with a 14 to 18g pellet) The 18g JSB pellets are what you want. Think: JSB's are the FGMM of the air gun world. Most good .22 PCP's are CAPABLE of Sub MOA groups at 100yds... And more of these documented groups have been printed with the 18g JSB's than any other pellet. Some guys are landing 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups at 100yds. But lets keep it real: we're talking about an 18g projectile with a .03 BC flying at 900fps (more like 650fps by the time it reaches 100yds). The slightest "unaccounted-for" breeze is gonna blow your pellets all over the place at these ranges. Sub MOA at 100 is do-able but NOT easy. This is where long range air gunning gets fun in my opinion (maybe because I just happen to have 100yds in the back yard). While I can't burn powder and be making all kinds of noise in the back yard, I can have a great time learning about wind and chasing the ever so elusive 1/2 MOA 5 shot 100yd group in my back yard with my AG's.

Anyway, the downside of the PCP's is the initial start-up investment. You need a way to fill it with air to 3000psi. The hand-pumps are good simple solution, and many of us start off that way. But its not like your bicycle pump -it takes some force to generate 3000psi by hand. Its gonna get your heart rate up. Think 60 strokes to fill up a gun with an air cylinder the size of the marauder. Think 5 or 10 minutes of putting your full body weight into it (depending on fitness and how hard you're givin' 'er!). -And that'll give you 25-30 shots in a marauder (you can adjust the power on the guns to a certain extent so it varies: turn it down for less power but more shots per fill, or turn it up for more power and less shots before you have to fill it again.). A lot of older not-so-fit shooters can't handle them. -And hand-pumping can be disruptive to a nice relaxing back-porch plinking session. If you shoot A LOT, a compressor or a 4500psi carbon-fiber scba type tank is the way most of the serious air gun guys end up going. Many end up saying: "I wish I went straight to a tank or compressor from the beginning".

Top Predator: You mentioned the Marauder: its a great first choice -you get a lot of gun for that price. Out of the box I hear you can expect 5 shot groups at 50yds to come in at .5" to 1". Much like an off the shelf Rem or savage (at 100yds)..... 1 to 1.5 moa is a reasonable expectation, right? You might get one that shoots lights out, but to guarantee 1/2 MOA performance you need to spend a little more, or put some work into it.... Its the same in the air gun world. Yeah, the top end air gun prices can seem ridiculous, but I can shoot my air gun in my yard 7 days a week, and literally shoot hundreds and hundreds of rounds per day w/out even thinking about the cost... The reality for me is: my ag's get shot 10:1 more than my powder burners just based on convenience. So if you're willing to spend a little more than the marauder price, I'd be happy to give you some recommendations!

Here's one of my rem700 clone/airgun trainers. Its a swedish made FX "cyclone" with a 19" German LW barrel. These can be picked up used for $600 or $700. I'm a lefty so the bolt/cocking lever is on the left side. Its got adjustable power (Low: 12fpe (~600fps and 75 shots per fill), Medium 24fpe (750-800fps and 50 shots per fill) and High 32fpe (~900fps and 30 shots per fill). Trigger is two stage adjustable from 2+lbs down to under 1 lb and can be adjusted to single-stage function

I don't print groups like this all day long, but it is capable of groups like this in no wind situations (5 shots at 50yds):

Its shown me 100yd groups in the .6's and I've used it to whack steel out to 200yds. Time of flight for an airgun pellet going to 200yds is kinda funny. Similar to what you ELR guys experience: "Oh I must have missed...".... wait.... wait.... "dink"

As far as training goes, I found an air gun specific ballistic calculator app for it and and recently mounted up a cheap BSA 4-14 ffp mil/mil scope from midway. My airgun dope in mils works out about like this:

4.5 mils to 100yds from my 35yd zero. I have to dial on something ridiculous like 19 mils for 200yds... I've been spinning my scope up and down A LOT and that cheap BSA actually seems to track pretty well so far. You can do the math and see how airgun ranges compare to certain ranges with your favorite center-fire gun as far as wind drift and stuff. I've heard shooting an airgun at 100yds can be similar to shooting a .308 at xxxx number of yards for example... Easy to figure that stuff out if you're good with a ballistics calculator.

I hope that helps. Obviously, I enjoy this stuff so if you have more specific questions I'd be more than happy to help any way I can. And hopefully we'll also hear from "123 steve" here on the hide. He's one hell of a shooter and he's beaten me in more than one air gun match down in AZ... I look forward to being schooled /by him in a proper LPR/tactical match someday..

regards,

ScottyD

 

[MontanaKid]

Maybe they'll start making defensive loads for air guns.

 

[jbell]

Maybe they'll start making defensive loads for air guns.

Just shoot for soft tissue, eyes, mouth, throat/esophagus, done deal...

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

found a lot of reviews done somewhat well on youtube by "airgunweb". shows groupings shot at 10 and 20 to 25 yards with springers, and groups at 50 yards with PCPs.

besides showing the actual groupings of the air rifle tested with different pellets, the guy also gives decibel readings to give you an idea of the sound levels and comments on any special features or downfalls of each rifle. nice thing about the decibel reads is that the rifles that supposed to be "silenced" may not be as quiet as ones that are not.

looks like the marauder is the "savage" of PCP (low cost and accurate vs others in it's class). the 50 yard CTC groups are super impressive, around .5", with a few even being smaller. even the discovery is rather impressive for the low dollar PCP.

looks like for a lower dollar entry into the springers that are decent, the hatsan 95 may be the way to go as it has alot of good features and accuracy for the price. i like the grip angles and look of the stock on the crosman venom, and while this model has a lot of features, that guy mentioned above that he had some accuracy issues.

DF i can only guess the moderators / silencers at the end of the springers are of a similiar design as "normal" ones, using some sort of baffle, with the added benefit of not having to clean them as there's no powder residue to contend with?

i guess the biggest thing, much like rimfires and centerfires, is to start with a decent foundation in the rifle, then the type of pellets it "likes". and just like them, there are some accurizing tips and tricks, even something simple such as the seating depth of the pellet in the chamber makes a difference. looks like fundametals are extremely important, especially grip on the springers for the length of time for the "shot cycle" (or lock time) of the spring mechanism.

also browsed CMP, they have some low to high end competition air rifles too.

i'm still blown away with the high end PCP air rifle's groups at 50 and 100.

 

[GeKados]

I use a spring air rifle very often at 40-50 m the rifle is a Gamo CFX in .22 cal with wich have a fixed barell. For me it is a good alternative, for 4€ price I can shoot 250 pelets.
I've tried at far long distance, about 100m, and despite cons opinions that this distance is too far for a spring air rifle I have had about ~85% hit rate in calm, no windy days.

Cris

 

[shaman]

The marauders are the 700s of airguns. hit and miss on accuracy, unless you get the .25. you can do just about anything to them. the .177 and the .22 can easily be interchanged. The problem is the lack of shot count. People get around that with air tube extensions, regulators, etc.

All that said, consider the peripherals that are necessary to do it. I was looking into it, tank, compressor, airgun and 5000 rds of ammo came out more than a trust supressor, rifle and 5000 rds of standard velocity.

If you are a fair weather shooter, CO2 might be better for you. The RWS 850 can be very accurate, and with an LDC on the end can be quiet. But, below freezing temps, the power drops, and drops even faster when you are going faster on the trigger.

Figure out how you will fill the airgun before you go looking at buying one. Nitrogen, compressed air, etc. For a PCP, getting it filled can be as expensive as the gun itself.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Benjamin Marauder for a PCP, or the Air Arms TX200 (mk III) if you want a spring gun. I like the spring gun myself, and after trying a few different things bought a TX200 and love it.

John

 

[woogie_man]

If you are looking for target rifles, try and find Fwb 300. Great .177 target rifle, and it shoots great.

 

[1911fan]

I've got a Beeman R1 that I had some upgrades done to. When I sent it in, I think the seals were shot. Accuracy was gone and even when I did hit a starling it didn't kill it. When I got it back, it was a laser guided Hammer of Death. It goes right through birds at 35 yards, kills 'em dead. It's a little quieter than a .22 short. I also had a Diana RWS in .22, but didn't like the feel of it. I'm going to find out if it's legal in my state to grouse hunt with an air rifle, because my upgraded R1 is fun to shoot.
Don't let the 'nerdy kid' thing stop you from having a ton of fun, inexpensively.


1911fan

 

[Phantom309]

A friend talked me into trying air guns awhile back. Don't underestimate spring guns, gas or metallic. They can be extremely accurate. Optics are just as big a deal in air as powder. The spring guns are extremely finiky, but that has taught me tons more trigger control than anything else I shoot. On a good day my Crosman NPSS will shoot rings around my bone stock 10/22 at 30-50 yards.

 

[Casey Simpson]

Filling an air cylinder to charge your pcp is NOT expensive. The cost is around $6. An 80bar cylinder on consignment at a SCUBA shop is @$150. A fill yoke is @$75.

 

[steve123]

Uh oh, don't go down this road, you might never be the same, moreso your savings account, LOL.

In my family my wife ended up with our most accurate air rifle. Her and I shoot Field Target air rifle with our club "Airgunners of Arizona". This is her rifle, it's a Mac1 airguns USFT, I have one too but hers is .2" more accurate at 50Y. Here's the same pic I've showed here in the RF forum often. Test target, 12 shots at 51Y with pellets strait out of the tin shot from inside a tunnel. Consistency and accuracy can be improved by sorting and weighing pellets but I haven't done that as of yet. Just like picking ammo for rimfire, you have to try different brand pellets to see which one your gun likes. JSB brand can be considered the Eley of the pellet world.

and mine, 5 AZ state wins with this beast.

Here's my .02 on air rifles.

Both gas ram and springers above 6-8 ftlbs are harder to shoot well, like mentioned mostly because of vibration. My 14 ftlb TX200 springer is easily a 3/4" shooter at 50Y but... it is temper mental with "how the rifle is held", "where the rifle is held", what position you are in and the list goes on as well. Consequently I don't shoot it much. Now, all that being said, if you are hunting with a springer or gas ram at normal distances, likely you will still hit whatever vermin your hunting in the vitals, they are big targets.

PCP's are wonderful! I've owned a dozen or more over the years while working my way up to the nicer ones. Plainly put, they are in a class by themselves and pure pleasure to shoot!

Probably the Mrod is the best value going for a PCP but... The newer ones aren't made as well as the early ones that were assembled in america. A friend that works at a airgun store gave me the scoop about this. The good news is "if" you were to get one that shot poorly there are a few airgun smiths around that do tuning and replace with higher quality barrels. They don't charge anywhere near what centerfire shooters are used to paying for a smiths work.

A few other PCP's I've owned.

Daystate MK4 Panther

BSA Scorpion

 

[drhcobra]

Good basement shooter pumps up in less than a minute. Still not sure how many shots, I know it's more than 30. Good for chipmunks digging around the house too!

 

[BradZ]

I'd love to get a nice one, but I want something that is similar to an actual gun as far as feel and such.

Was thinking about getting one of these
http://www.airgundepot.com/hatsan-model-125-camo-sniper-25-caliber-air-rifle-combo.html

But I have ammo concerns. I've never seen 25 pellets in stores and I don't want something I have to order ammo for

 

[seanh]

That's easy. Do you want spring/gas piston, PCP? How much do you want to spend- look at around 1K. Hint: you won't find the quality you're looking for at a big box store.

Both my Beeman Cromag 3 (theoben eliminator) and Air Arms Pro Target have the weight and feel of a "real" gun. Both of which I don't use in my back yard because they have too much power...I use super colibri ammuntion in my .22

want high power that can kill a deer, hog etc
http://www.southernairgunconversion.com/

Or are you looking for something that you can use in your back yard.- not your typical kids crossman
http://www.theobenusa.com/

Airguns of Arizona can help you find something as can Pyramid air.

As to that gun you picked...I'd pass. Personally, I'd save some money and treat it like you would a precision 22 trainer, entry long range rifle etc...you'll get a lot more use out of it. Also, the lower end "high power" airguns, tend to have parts that break.


As to .25 pellets...depends on where you live. I have a couple places near me that carry it but in general, no, most places only carry .177 or .22. But don't knock ordering. When you order, spend about 100 bucks and you'll have enough to shoot all year...probably more.

one thing to consider when finding a specific caliber is what the intent would be. A .22 is great for rabbit, squirrel, birds etc...but a .25 might be a bit too large.


Take a look at the RWS 54, 56 line of rifles...hard to beat those at that price; the 350 is another good one.

 

[BradZ]

Ok ill go ahead and admit I have no clue what any of that stuff like pcp means. I had a red rider, then a pump up crossman, now I have one that I'm not sure what it is. Barrel breaks down and locks back up to cock it.

I'd love to have something I can shoot out back, at the same time if I could kill groundhogs it'd be great.

I don't want to have to get an air tank filled up so I'm guessing pistons or springs

 

[Cartman]

A buddy got a Marauder in .25 with a carbon fiber tank. Not so much for target practice but for vermin elimination -- all the way up to a Coyote, which he put down in one shot right to the eye. It surpassed his expectations.

 

[seanh]

Ok ill go ahead and admit I have no clue what any of that stuff like pcp means. I had a red rider, then a pump up crossman, now I have one that I'm not sure what it is. Barrel breaks down and locks back up to cock it.

I'd love to have something I can shoot out back, at the same time if I could kill groundhogs it'd be great.

I don't want to have to get an air tank filled up so I'm guessing pistons or springs

PCP is Pre Charged Pneumatic...uses a separate charging source. If you're not interested in this then, you're limited to pump up- pump on the gun like the old Benjamin rifles, spring piston or gas piston. I'd say for the money the old Benjamin 397 isn't a bad gun to have...just a workout to pump.

First, look at what the intent is...groundhogs, next price. What I mentioned about RWS wouldn't be a bad way to go...I've had the 45, 54 both are great guns.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Mine are Spring rifles, a Chinese .177, and an elderly plastic 'Biathlon Trainer' .177 with sorta adjustable peep sights and what is probably the most atrocious trigger I've ever fingered.

Each holds minute of beer can at ten paces, and the Chinese has the capacity to really annoy woodchucks at beer can throwing distances.

My visitors get the occasional, "Here, hold my beer and watch this...".

Yeah..., me too...; I'll humbly own up...

I think I'm gonna really need to find an antique Wrist Rocket, some fresh new surgical tubing, and a couple pounds of 00 Buck.

Greg

 

[Old Coach]

I found a Beeman R-9 and a P-1 at a yard sale for $225 for both and great supply of pellets.
Both are 20cal.
I have a target set up @ 15yds and practice often.
Both work great on squirrels.
The P-1 is a pistol that looks like a 1911 and the bbl breaks up to cock the action.
The R-9 is a brake-bbl rifle.
Check out Airgun Depot for good deals. I gave several of my employees the Crosman 1322 pump up pistol for Christmas and they really like them.
The 1377 can be found a Wal-Mart for $60, it is 17cal.

 

[168BTHPM]

I have a couple and they do a lot to keep one's skills sharp and crispy.

But even airgun pellets have become unobtanium in a lot of places.

Greg

Greg,

The CMP still has Merlin and H&N match pellets. They work great for 10m shooting.

I prefer Beeman Ramjets when I an hunting with an air rifle.

 

[The Godfather]

I have a beeman R10 that I have used a lot over the years. Recently replaced a broken main spring and is currently shooting very well. Use it mainly for shooting in the basement (10m). For 1c a shot with no travel expense...hard to beat.

 

[Phantom309]

Nothing special, but this is from my NPSS at about 40 yds if I recall correctly. It is the best group I've gotten from her yet. Not too bad for a $250 gun/scope combo. It's wearing a CenterPoint 3-9x40, and was shooting Crosman Premier Destroyers. Advertised at 1200fps, I haven't got a crony, but those that do say they are closer to 1000. Plenty of power, and accurate enough to be fun. We have been using 209 shotshell primers for targets lately. Drill a 1/4" hole in plywood for the primer, then stick a target dot over it. Enough of a challenge to hit at 20-30 yards to be fun. And you get a nice reward when you connect. Kinda like Tannerite for you airgun.

 

[steve123]

Howdy Hide members. I've been around here for a few years -I've been keeping my mouth shut (low post count) and learning ton about long range precision from you guys (much appreciated!). I come from a competitive air rifle background and I feel plenty qualified to speak up and try to help you guys in this department.

Top Predator: I'm impressed with the research you've done so far and I can say you're definitely on the right track. Just like any gun purchase, you need to start with: What do you want to do with it? Want to shoot paper at 10yds in your basement? -There are a bunch of good air gun choices for that. Want to shoot an Elk? There actually are a few air guns that will do that humanely... Compete in Air Rifle Field Target from 10 to 55yds?... etc...

Want to do some training in your back yard for your next long range tactical comp? -I think there are definitely some great air rifle choices for that.

There are a bunch of calibers available and these guns come in at all kinds of power levels. So it takes some effort to narrow all this down. For example: that AR-looking gun shown higher in this thread is a great 10yd trainer -but it comes at a power level that's not gonna do much for you at 50 to 100yds. I''m going to assume all you guys already have plenty of cash tied up in high-end center-fire guns that you can't shoot as much as you'd like to (limited range access, can't find ammo, lack of free time, cost, whatever...) I'd try to steer you towards the "buy once, cry once" school of thought... Settle into the idea that start-up cost with a good precision air gun is gonna be a little expensive, but then feeding it as much ammo as you want for the rest of your life is going to be NOTHING compared to what you spend on center-fire ammo. If you love shooting, and you're gonna train a lot with your air gun, trust me, its better to invest more in a higher-end air gun up front!

For under 50 yds, there are some good quality spring guns out there (I couldn't in good conscience recommend anything lower end than a RWS, HW/WH, or an AA. Note: Crosman, Gamo, and anything "nitro" NOT on that list). The benefit is that they're self contained: cock it once and get one full power shot. -No feeding it air... no extra charging equipment. But spring guns have some crazy harmonic issues and generally won't shoot well from a bi-pod or from any solid rest. Also don't fall into the "1000+ FPS" marketing BS. You don't want to be near trans-sonic with airgun pellets. Pellets by design (think parachute-like skirt in the back to catch the air blast) have an enormous amount of drag and will not handle the transition through the sonic barrier. For "long range" air gun work the sweet spot for the best balance between "flat" trajectory vs. accuracy is agreed to be in the ballpark of 875-920fps. If you want a spring gun and you want the kind of precision guys around here seem to enjoy, I'd say look at spending $400 or $500 on a used "Air Arms" -their TX200 model is a well proven, competition winner. Some are capable of 1/2" c-t-c 5 shot groups at 50yds -but 1" @ 50 is a more reasonable expectation. Any spring gun (break-barrel) less than $200 is better suited for casual plinking and whacking squirrels at VERY short range, than for any kind of real precision or accuracy training.

The new PCP (Pre-Charged Pnuematic) technology is the best of the best in air guns these days (you fill a gun to somewhere around 3000psi with a hand-pump or from a scuba tank or a compressor). A PCP in .22 is your best bet for 50 to 100yds. Most good quality .22 PCP's will come with a power setting in the ball-park of 30fpe (think 875-920fps with a 14 to 18g pellet) The 18g JSB pellets are what you want. Think: JSB's are the FGMM of the air gun world. Most good .22 PCP's are CAPABLE of Sub MOA groups at 100yds... And more of these documented groups have been printed with the 18g JSB's than any other pellet. Some guys are landing 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups at 100yds. But lets keep it real: we're talking about an 18g projectile with a .03 BC flying at 900fps (more like 650fps by the time it reaches 100yds). The slightest "unaccounted-for" breeze is gonna blow your pellets all over the place at these ranges. Sub MOA at 100 is do-able but NOT easy. This is where long range air gunning gets fun in my opinion (maybe because I just happen to have 100yds in the back yard). While I can't burn powder and be making all kinds of noise in the back yard, I can have a great time learning about wind and chasing the ever so elusive 1/2 MOA 5 shot 100yd group in my back yard with my AG's.

Anyway, the downside of the PCP's is the initial start-up investment. You need a way to fill it with air to 3000psi. The hand-pumps are good simple solution, and many of us start off that way. But its not like your bicycle pump -it takes some force to generate 3000psi by hand. Its gonna get your heart rate up. Think 60 strokes to fill up a gun with an air cylinder the size of the marauder. Think 5 or 10 minutes of putting your full body weight into it (depending on fitness and how hard you're givin' 'er!). -And that'll give you 25-30 shots in a marauder (you can adjust the power on the guns to a certain extent so it varies: turn it down for less power but more shots per fill, or turn it up for more power and less shots before you have to fill it again.). A lot of older not-so-fit shooters can't handle them. -And hand-pumping can be disruptive to a nice relaxing back-porch plinking session. If you shoot A LOT, a compressor or a 4500psi carbon-fiber scba type tank is the way most of the serious air gun guys end up going. Many end up saying: "I wish I went straight to a tank or compressor from the beginning".

Top Predator: You mentioned the Marauder: its a great first choice -you get a lot of gun for that price. Out of the box I hear you can expect 5 shot groups at 50yds to come in at .5" to 1". Much like an off the shelf Rem or savage (at 100yds)..... 1 to 1.5 moa is a reasonable expectation, right? You might get one that shoots lights out, but to guarantee 1/2 MOA performance you need to spend a little more, or put some work into it.... Its the same in the air gun world. Yeah, the top end air gun prices can seem ridiculous, but I can shoot my air gun in my yard 7 days a week, and literally shoot hundreds and hundreds of rounds per day w/out even thinking about the cost... The reality for me is: my ag's get shot 10:1 more than my powder burners just based on convenience. So if you're willing to spend a little more than the marauder price, I'd be happy to give you some recommendations!

Here's one of my rem700 clone/airgun trainers. Its a swedish made FX "cyclone" with a 19" German LW barrel. These can be picked up used for $600 or $700. I'm a lefty so the bolt/cocking lever is on the left side. Its got adjustable power (Low: 12fpe (~600fps and 75 shots per fill), Medium 24fpe (750-800fps and 50 shots per fill) and High 32fpe (~900fps and 30 shots per fill). Trigger is two stage adjustable from 2+lbs down to under 1 lb and can be adjusted to single-stage function

I don't print groups like this all day long, but it is capable of groups like this in no wind situations (5 shots at 50yds):

Its shown me 100yd groups in the .6's and I've used it to whack steel out to 200yds. Time of flight for an airgun pellet going to 200yds is kinda funny. Similar to what you ELR guys experience: "Oh I must have missed...".... wait.... wait.... "dink"

As far as training goes, I found an air gun specific ballistic calculator app for it and and recently mounted up a cheap BSA 4-14 ffp mil/mil scope from midway. My airgun dope in mils works out about like this:

4.5 mils to 100yds from my 35yd zero. I have to dial on something ridiculous like 19 mils for 200yds... I've been spinning my scope up and down A LOT and that cheap BSA actually seems to track pretty well so far. You can do the math and see how airgun ranges compare to certain ranges with your favorite center-fire gun as far as wind drift and stuff. I've heard shooting an airgun at 100yds can be similar to shooting a .308 at xxxx number of yards for example... Easy to figure that stuff out if you're good with a ballistics calculator.

I hope that helps. Obviously, I enjoy this stuff so if you have more specific questions I'd be more than happy to help any way I can. And hopefully we'll also hear from "123 steve" here on the hide. He's one hell of a shooter and he's beaten me in more than one air gun match down in AZ... I look forward to being schooled /by him in a proper LPR/tactical match someday..

regards,

ScottyD

Hi Scotty,

Hey, I got all exited yesterday about posting on this thread before I read "all" the reply's and then this morning I saw yours, LOL. Sorry about that!, wasn't ignoring you at all! Very excellent advice BTW!!!! It's interesting how our posts correlated, great minds think alike I guess???, LOL.

You'd love the azprc.org long range match here in AZ! Let me know if you ever get out this way so we can shoot some AG's and do some long range too.

 

[Phantom309]

I appreciate the "Buy once, cry once" mindset. But a lot of us have a hard time justifying spending the price of a good rifle, or scope on an air gun. I'd love to buy a Airforce, AirArms, etc, but by the time I drop that kind of cash, I could have bought a pile of ammo, or a complete reloading setup, or a good scope, etc. Also, there are no local competitions that I know of, so that level of gun would be wasted on me. The trick is to spend enough to have some accuracy and quality without breaking the bank.

 

[Wonko_The_Sane]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Edgun R3 Matador Rifles or the Kalibr Cricket's. Both are .25 cal, PCP, +40ft-lb of energy, and are capable of 1 moa groups at 100 yards.

1600$ for the Cricket, and 2500$ for a Edgun though.

Cricket

Edgun