Gunsmithing bad chamber job

[hawk_ce]

After getting my rifle back from the gunsmith I went to range and this is what the brass looked like. The picture isn't that great but there is ring below the shoulder. To me it looks like it is from build up on the reamer. I tool it back to the gunsmith and he polished the chamber to remove the ring. He showed me the brass from where he test fired it and there wasn't a ring. But when I went back to the range the ring was there again. This picture is actually from after the second trip to the range. I took it back a second time and the smith has polished the chamber some more and has said that if the ring returns that the barrel will have to be set back. I know that I will not be able to reuse the brass. But my concern is the barrel at this point. This is my first custom rifle and it is a bit disappointing. I buy a Rock Creek barrel and the gunsmith who is supposed to be good messes it up.
I know that a barrel can be only set back once and essentially cuts the usable life of the barrel in half.
What will the extra space in the chamber from the gunsmith polishing it out do to the case life and accuracy? Since its not exactly a tight chamber anymore.
If the ring is there after this latest round of polishing should I insist on them replacing the barrel?
FYI its a 260 Remington on a 700 action Rock Creek M24 contour

 

[Turd in the Pool]

Tell him to replace the bbl. and take it to someone that can do it right. Option 2; tell him to let you know when he has it polished out to 6.5-284. JK

Seriously though, looks like you will only lose 1/4". Nothing to worry about if he threaded it right. The hard part is getting him to eat the labor when you take it to someone that can fix it.

 

[jonaddis84]

M24 can be set back more than once, many times in fact, however, it will likely take more than 1/4" to get rid of it.

Galaxy S3 on tapatalk

 

[mcfred]

So... Aesthetics aside.

Does it shoot?
Does it cycle?

Then stop worrying about it.

 

[Idaho CTD]

Setting the barrel back has nothing to do with the usable life of the barrel in your case. It is typically used to extend the life of the barrel when it starts to show throat erosion. In that case it will typically give you about 50% more barrel life but that depends on how back the barrel is at the time of set back.

Those scratches are pretty minor from the looks of it and the chamber size shouldn't have to be enlarged much to clean it. You can always have him set it back a small amount to clean it up again like has been mentioned.

 

[hawk_ce]

So... Aesthetics aside.

Does it shoot?
Does it cycle?

Then stop worrying about it.

If it was a matter of just aesthetics then I wouldn't worry about it. What I am worried about is case life 260 brass isn't always the easiest or the cheapest to find.
It was a little tight on the extraction but as far as it being a shooter I couldn't be happier. This group was at 200 during OCW.. 0.9 at 200 Ill take it!

 

[turbo54]

Dude, the chamber polishing is removing metal on the order of .0002-.0005".

It won't "enlarge" the chamber in any but the most technical sense.

He won't need to cut the entire tennon off to fix this. He'll only need to remove a few threads. No big deal.

Itll still be able to be set back once or twice.

By the wsy: Setbacks, while functional, are hard to justify unless you have your own lathe and DIY because it costs the same to chamber a fresh barrel, or set back a used one. Why rehash a used pipe when you can do up a fresh one?

Look at a ~1200 round 260 barrel with a scope sometime, you'll be amazed. The barrel looks "used" and sub-par at least 10" down. Cutting 1-1.5" off helps, but it sure isn't like new.

Bottom line: let your smith fix the chambering job, move on with your life, and get to work wearing it out.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

Dude, the chamber polishing is removing metal on the order of .0002-.0005".

It won't "enlarge" the chamber in any but the most technical sense.

He won't need to cut the entire tennon off to fix this. He'll only need to remove a few threads. No big deal.

Itll still be able to be set back once or twice.

By the wsy: Setbacks, while functional, are hard to justify unless you have your own lathe and DIY because it costs the same to chamber a fresh barrel, or set back a used one. Why rehash a used pipe when you can do up a fresh one?

Look at a ~1200 round 260 barrel with a scope sometime, you'll be amazed. The barrel looks "used" and sub-par at least 10" down. Cutting 1-1.5" off helps, but it sure isn't like new.

Bottom line: let your smith fix the chambering job, move on with your life, and get to work wearing it out.

Thanks for reinforcing my speculation that 1/4" would clean it up. (4 threads) I agree that the polishing increase in dia is negligible. Cases rarely have failure in that area.

 

[jonaddis84]

I guess 260 has a touch more case taper than creedmoor, but I had this happen to a personal barrel once, required 1.25" to get rid of it. Hard to tell from his pic but it doesn't look quite as bad. Mine was bad enough that it made extraction difficult though.

Galaxy S3 on tapatalk

 

[turbo54]

I guess 260 has a touch more case taper than creedmoor, but I had this happen to a personal barrel once, required 1.25" to get rid of it. Hard to tell from his pic but it doesn't look quite as bad. Mine was bad enough that it made extraction difficult though.

Galaxy S3 on tapatalk

6.5creed has very, very little taper. As far as SAAMI cartridges go, I can't think of another with less.

260 tapers ~.015" over a ~1.475" length, which is basically .010"/1", which means you can expect to erase scratches as deep as .0025" by setting it back .25".

Because simple polishing is helping but isn't quite enough, I suspect the scratch isn't .0025" deep.

 

[Cncjerry]

I can't tell from the picture if it is a scratch or does it look buffed like when the case stretches? Are talking about that rough looking area about 1/4" down the case below the shoulder?

 

[gamma]

I dont know where ye guys are going with 1/4" Id say 2 or 3 thou would right this one infact a decent polish would most likely solve it. Im surprised that it left the smiths place in that condition, he clearly never test fired it, he made that quite apparent when the client went back to him twice and the ring was still there.

 

[300sniper]

I dont know where ye guys are going with 1/4" Id say 2 or 3 thou would right this one infact a decent polish would most likely solve it. Im surprised that it left the smiths place in that condition, he clearly never test fired it, he made that quite apparent when the client went back to him twice and the ring was still there.

making the chamber .002-.003" deeper will create an almost unmeasurable diameter increase. probably less than .00001". i'd guess the scaring in the chamber is far deeper than that. even setting the chamber back .0313" (half turn) will only clean up the walls a rch under .001" larger in radius. i think one full turn would be sufficiant and keep any markings/brake timing the same.

 

[Cncjerry]

I dont know where ye guys are going with 1/4" Id say 2 or 3 thou would right this one infact a decent polish would most likely solve it. Im surprised that it left the smiths place in that condition, he clearly never test fired it, he made that quite apparent when the client went back to him twice and the ring was still there.

Look at the picture. There is a rough area that extends from the shoulder down about 1/4". I was asking if this was considered the problem area.

 

[Turd in the Pool]

1/4" was my speculation. Relating to setting the bbl back. May not clean it up completely but would at least get it to a point that you could polish it out.

Hope he cleans up the reamer before the next cut.

 

[Edds]

making the chamber .002-.003" deeper will create an almost unmeasurable diameter increase. probably less than .00001". i'd guess the scaring in the chamber is far deeper than that. even setting the chamber back .0313" (half turn) will only clean up the walls a rch under .001" larger in radius. i think one full turn would be sufficiant and keep any markings/brake timing the same.

A 260 has .012" taper per inch.

Making the chamber .003" deeper will increase the diameter .000036".

Setting the chamber back .0313" will change the radius .00019". A full turn would increase it .00038".

A quarter inch will get you .0015" per side.

 

[300sniper]

A 260 has .012" taper per inch.

Making the chamber .003" deeper will increase the diameter .000036".

Setting the chamber back .0313" will change the radius .00019". A full turn would increase it .00038".

A quarter inch will get you .0015" per side.

You are correct.

 

[J E CUSTOM]

I know some will say don't worry about it. But as a Smith and one that Is anal about chambers It needs to be fixed even if to satisfy the customer

There are several things I will comment on and probably cause a storm but hear goes.

If A chamber is done right, It needs NO POLISHING. A polished chamber does several things that are not good. First It changes the dimensions of
the chamber and is not always concentric.

Next a proper chamber with a honed finish left by the reamer helps reduce bolt loading(A polished chamber does not grip the case during firing as well
increasing bolt loading)

Also A polished chamber indicates a poor chambering process (If you have to polish a chamber you have not done a good job)

Most Smiths would not let anything like that leave there shop. I test fire every rifle and If anything is not correct I automatically take it apart and fix it.
Before the customer gets it.

All Smiths are subject to make a mistake but correcting it before the customer sees it of shoots it is his responsibility.

You should not have to take a REPAIRED custom rifle you should get what you want the first time. You should ask him to replace the barrel (Not set it back) and chamber it correctly. If he refuse or is hesitant, Take to another smith and send him the bill.

There are many ways to fix your rifle but if you do you will always wonder how well it would have shot without all of the fixes.

Smiths are not always the problem, customers are. But in this case a poor chamber is clearly the Smiths fault and his responsibility to correct
and make you happy without settling for less than you paid for.

I cant speak for other Smiths but I would be embarrassed to let something out of my shop that looked like that, as many other smiths would.

As I have said before-- Production and profit are the biggest cause of poor quality.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[Turd in the Pool]

A 260 has .012" taper per inch.

Making the chamber .003" deeper will increase the diameter .000036".

Setting the chamber back .0313" will change the radius .00019". A full turn would increase it .00038".

A quarter inch will get you .0015" per side.

So assuming the galling is .003" deep, 1/2" setback should clean it up.? I suck at math!

 

[cruizer]

I'd set the barrel back at least 30 thou.then ream it to a 260 ackley

 

[r44astro]

Chamber

After getting my rifle back from the gunsmith I went to range and this is what the brass looked like. The picture isn't that great but there is ring below the shoulder. To me it looks like it is from build up on the reamer. I tool it back to the gunsmith and he polished the chamber to remove the ring. He showed me the brass from where he test fired it and there wasn't a ring. But when I went back to the range the ring was there again. This picture is actually from after the second trip to the range. I took it back a second time and the smith has polished the chamber some more and has said that if the ring returns that the barrel will have to be set back. I know that I will not be able to reuse the brass. But my concern is the barrel at this point. This is my first custom rifle and it is a bit disappointing. I buy a Rock Creek barrel and the gunsmith who is supposed to be good messes it up.
I know that a barrel can be only set back once and essentially cuts the usable life of the barrel in half.
What will the extra space in the chamber from the gunsmith polishing it out do to the case life and accuracy? Since its not exactly a tight chamber anymore.
If the ring is there after this latest round of polishing should I insist on them replacing the barrel?
FYI its a 260 Remington on a 700 action Rock Creek M24 contour

Here's a wild guess, the barrel steel is the problem. Get a Kreiger

 

[ken226]

I have a .260 Obermeyer barrel that leaves a ring on brass like that, a little more pronounced than yours even. After the first session at the range though, it was obvious that this rifle was an absolute freaking tackdriver.

I was afraid to let anyone touch the chamber lest I screw up whats shooting so well!! The good part, its its not effecting my brass life, not making it hard to extract, only effect is the ring.

I say see how it shoots first, then decide if you want to set it back.

I get about 6-7 loads ouf of a case before the primer pocket is too loose for my comfort level, never so much as a crack up near that funky looking ring.

 

[bohem]

Can you feel the ring with your fingernail? The picture looks to me like it is just a chamber that wasn't polished up properly.

Here's a wild guess, the barrel steel is the problem. Get a Kreiger

This is just foolishness. You can take any barrel and make the ring happen from not polishing a chamber and not cutting it properly. Doesn't matter what barrel maker shipped it out, it's entirely a gunbuilder issue, something was missed prior to the chamber leaving the shop.

The rifle builder should be fixing this free of charge, if the barrel needs to be set back and you're not happy with the resulting length of the barrel then the 'smith should be picking up the tab on a new barrel IMO. The guys who are TRULY good would not have sent it out this way, not have told you that a barrel replacement was necessary, and not be sticking you for the price of the work.

On the polish work, I'm sure that it is still a tight chamber, what you're seeing is less than 1/2 thousandth deep (0.0005 or less) and it doesn't have any impact on the performance, if the gun shoots it shoots.

 

[pawprint2]

I've read so many posts here on the hide, that attacked a gun smith for not Test Firing his work prior to giving it to the customer. Now we have another case of a smith not test firing a weapon prior to giving it to his customer, and the screams and noshing of teeth are silent! What gives? Should a smith test fire a weapon prior to delivery, or is some smiths should, others should not, and for some it doesn't matter? I am one that believes a smith should test fire the weapon prior to delivery, as I expect a mechanic to test drive my car if he's done a brake job-safety first. Where are the cries of indignation?

 

[bohem]

Should a smith test fire a weapon prior to delivery, or is some smiths should, others should not, and for some it doesn't matter?

IMO, they absolutely should. That is the ultimate and final test. Measure everything you want, late hours, early mornings, whatever... stuff happens, people read mic's that are off by 1 rotation, it happens, I know that I"ve done it several times.

I personally think it to be irresponsible of 'smiths that avoid firing a round into the dirt at a bare minimum.

 

[scotharr]

Test firing is not a standard practice. Ask for it BEFORE you get the work done and don't be surprised if you get charged more for this service. Not every gunsmith has a range in their back yard and time is money. Personally, I'm not big on test firing because I don't think there is much to learn from this practice. I've never received a gun that would not go bang and test firing won't find anything but the most aggregious problems. When I first started the custom rifle journey, I had unrealistic expectations of what a gunsmith would and should do. Many barrels and one lathe later, I would recommend the following when placing an order:

1. Write down on paper EXACTLY what you want done and carefully discuss it with your gunsmith before AND after the work gets done. If you have any feelings of uncertainty after having this discussion, head for the door. Also, remember, it's a two-way street....you can't go changing your request regularly and expect your gunsmith to keep up with all the changes.
2. Agree upon a drop dead delivery date with financial penalties for failure to deliver. This is a great way to ferret out sloppy smiths because you will see them start sweating when deadlines get mentioned.
3. Get access to a bore scope and get an experienced person to show you how to use it. This is the REAL way to inspect barrel work. Borescope that new barrel as soon as you receive it: preferably with your smith standing there to address any questions or concerns immediately.
4. Get yourself a GO and NO-GO gauge. Always check before firing the first shot. You will be surprised at how many barrels where the NO-GO gauge fits easily.
5. Finally, if you can't find a smith that does work to your standard, start saving up for a lathe. I've ended up going this route: has costed a lot of time and money but I can't be more pleased with the results and the freedom to get work done whenever desired.

 

[pawprint2]

I disagree, if you read the post, the problem the OP had would have been caught by the smith prior to delivery. You should not have to "write down on paper..." , this is foolish. A gun smith should be a professional, most are, if you know everything he should be doing, you're a gun smith yourself. Imagine for one minute you go get a brake job on your car, should you "write down on paper" everything the mechanic should do? Are you passing notes the pilots on commercial airlines prior to take-off, to be sure they know what to do? If you need to tell your gun smith everything he should do, in order for him to accomplish professional work, find a new smith. In all aspects of fire arms Safety comes first, period. Test firing is an essential safety tool. Anyone cutting corners in safety, especially when dealing with firearms needs to re-evaluate their way of thinking-for it is not IF, but When.

 

[flynlow3]

I know some will say don't worry about it. But as a Smith and one that Is anal about chambers It needs to be fixed even if to satisfy the customer

There are several things I will comment on and probably cause a storm but hear goes.

If A chamber is done right, It needs NO POLISHING. A polished chamber does several things that are not good. First It changes the dimensions of
the chamber and is not always concentric.

Next a proper chamber with a honed finish left by the reamer helps reduce bolt loading(A polished chamber does not grip the case during firing as well
increasing bolt loading)

Also A polished chamber indicates a poor chambering process (If you have to polish a chamber you have not done a good job)

Most Smiths would not let anything like that leave there shop. I test fire every rifle and If anything is not correct I automatically take it apart and fix it.
Before the customer gets it.

All Smiths are subject to make a mistake but correcting it before the customer sees it of shoots it is his responsibility.

You should not have to take a REPAIRED custom rifle you should get what you want the first time. You should ask him to replace the barrel (Not set it back) and chamber it correctly. If he refuse or is hesitant, Take to another smith and send him the bill.

There are many ways to fix your rifle but if you do you will always wonder how well it would have shot without all of the fixes.

Smiths are not always the problem, customers are. But in this case a poor chamber is clearly the Smiths fault and his responsibility to correct
and make you happy without settling for less than you paid for.

I cant speak for other Smiths but I would be embarrassed to let something out of my shop that looked like that, as many other smiths would.

As I have said before-- Production and profit are the biggest cause of poor quality.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

JE said it very well! I am glad he hit on the polishing subject. Summed all crucial aspects up well. I agree 100% with you!

 

[Randfal]

Back to what he should do......
Let the gun smith fix it. It will take very little to clean up the scratch in the chamber. A 260 has plenty enough taper to clean that up in a very short distance. You are not going to even notice the loss in barrel length it will be so small. It's a new barrel, no one set back rule applys. And that suggestion only applys to someone soothing thousands of rounds down barrel between set backs. The condition of the rifling in front of the chamber dictates whether it can be set back.
What about the loads being test fired?.?.?.
What case(hard - soft) and how high pressure a load (light - normal- hot) did the gunsmith test fire with? Maybe your brass is softer and you loaded hotter than your gunsmiths brass. If he fired it and showed you the brass with no marks on it, what else can he do? Don't go flaming a guy trying to make it right,because some guy on the Internet says you should. This guy might do great work and this is that rare job where a shaving sticks just right in the reamer and produces a light mark in the chamber. Go ahead, make him replace your barrel and wait 8 months for a new tube or let him take an 1/8" off the thing and go shooting next week.

 

[paul2atlo8]

100% JE is right!

 

[Elite_KG]

I'm no gun smith, but I wouldn't set it back based on that picture. Unless the picture is misrepresenting the depth severity, it looks like that could be polished out.

 

[Cartman]

Test firing is not a standard practice. Ask for it BEFORE you get the work done and don't be surprised if you get charged more for this service. Not every gunsmith has a range in their back yard and time is money. Personally, I'm not big on test firing because I don't think there is much to learn from this practice.

I remember visiting Bill Ritchie's operation when it was still in an industrial park in Southern California. In the corner was what looked like a spiral steel horn. About four feet high and occupying about four square feet of space or less if I remember correctly. Ritchie would test .50 BMGs right there in the shop.