Bartlein New Barrel Material 400MODBB

[Frank Green]

there is a single day, double F class match in Laurel, MS with e targets on August 8th....so probably 115 heat index, so six 25+ shot strings, can you send me a test barrel?

I'll sell you one!

Dave in the shop shoots both PRS and F class as well. His 6.5PRC after last weekend has 994 rounds on it. He had to engage targets on one stage out to 1350 yards. That stage the targets where 400, 600, 900 and 1350. You had to hit to continue. Heat index was running like 103 on Saturday. He had no issues.

 

[Geno C.]

there is a single day, double F class match in Laurel, MS with e targets on August 8th....so probably 115 heat index, so six 25+ shot strings, can you send me a test barrel?

You call that a test?! I’m sending 140+ gr of powder down a 338 hole. This new barrel might last 4-500 rounds. It wouldn’t take long to figure out that the new steel would last longer.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

I've chambered several of them. As you would expect they machine differently than 416R. But no real issues. No special tooling required. Reamers may not last quite as long but at a cost of approximately $3-4 a chamber for a HSS reamer in 416R what's another 50 cents. For carbide the increase in costs can be calculated with nickles and dimes per chamber.

 

[bobke]

Well...now I have three things to patiently wait for. New steel, wrapped in carbon fiber and for AR10/15 platform. Know it’ll be worth the wait.

 

[Steel head]

You call that a test?! I’m sending 140+ gr of powder down a 338 hole. This new barrel might last 4-500 rounds. It wouldn’t take long to figure out that the new steel would last longer.

“my cartridge eats barrels like Tic Tacs“
Geno 2020.

 

[Geno C.]

“my cartridge eats barrels like Tic Tacs“
Geno 2020.

I might or might not have said that

 

[BradyW]

Will it take parkerizing/bluing?

The most modern steel with the most traditional finishes.....

No, it is stainless steel. Rattle can it! LOL.

 

[pmclaine]

No, it is stainless steel. Rattle can it! LOL.

Thanks for the confirm.

With all the reference/comparison to 416 I started to understand it was stainless.

Ill keep my "Manly" guns running carbon.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

So does this mean the inflated barrel life estimates of new cartridges will actually be correct on these new barrels???

Now you just need to figure out a way to make new cartridges meet their inflated velocities......

Ha.

 

[Franko]

Here you all are talking about how much more barrel life you are going to get out of your fire breathing magnums and I'm thinking how much more I'll be able to get out of something like a 6mm BR or 223. I guess I need to go be poor somewhere else...

 

[30cal user]

You call that a test?! I’m sending 140+ gr of powder down a 338 hole. This new barrel might last 4-500 rounds. It wouldn’t take long to figure out that the new steel would last longer.

you win

 

[30cal user]

Here you all are talking about how much more barrel life you are going to get out of your fire breathing magnums and I'm thinking how much more I'll be able to get out of something like a 6mm BR or 223. I guess I need to go be poor somewhere else...

one bbl for two generations of 30hate shooters in your family

 

[GBMaryland]

So, I have a serious question:

Sako (for my TRG) makes a point that Stainless Steel does not out perform Chrome Molly for their TRG barrels.

How do you folks think this variant of stainless will compare to CM?

Following up to that question: Why is CM a better wearer than stainless?

GB

@Frank Green

 

[Frank Green]

So, I have a serious question:

Sako (for my TRG) makes a point that Stainless Steel does not out perform Chrome Molly for their TRG barrels.

How do you folks think this variant of stainless will compare to CM?

Following up to that question: Why is CM a better wearer than stainless?

GB

@Frank Green

Yes I do say that there is no difference in barrel life per say on SS vs CM. So we are talking the standard grade 416 ss material.

Also I've maintained for years that even in normal material that cut rifled barrels due last longer than button or hammer forged barrels. We don't work harden the surface of the bore during rifling. That's not just me saying that either....it's data I've gotten back from ammo makers, bullet makers etc...even Obermeyer told me years ago.....that one point in time old man Hart and his material both came out of the same lot of material and they noticed that the Boot's barrels lasted longer than the button barrels.

Yes our new material is still a 400 series but we changed the chemical composition of the material itself. All data back so far is that it is lasting longer.

A side bonus we've been hearing from like George at GAP as well as others is that it seems to foul less and clean easier. That wasn't planned for but from what we see and what we are hearing it's just a bonus.

 

[orkan]

Also I've maintained for years that even in normal material that cut rifled barrels due last longer than button or hammer forged barrels.

That might be an oversimplification, don't you think?

The Benchmark barrels I've run a great many of, don't seem to be leaving any barrel life on the table, and they are button cut.

 

[Krob95]

Short of costs between 416 and this new 400 series steel. Is there any reason to really look back to SS 416 barrels, given the increase in barrel life and potential for easier maintenance with the new material?

 

[Frank Green]

That might be an oversimplification, don't you think?

The Benchmark barrels I've run a great many of, don't seem to be leaving any barrel life on the table, and they are button cut.

Button rifling is not button cut!

Button rifling is basically a cold swagging process. It displaces the material. It does not remove the material.

 

[orkan]

Button rifling is not button cut!

Button rifling is basically a cold swagging process. It displaces the material. It does not remove the material.

Interesting, and thanks for the clarification. The way I read your post it just said "button" rather than button rifled, as being different from button cut.

 

[Lowlight]

We diagnosed a Button Rifled Barrel this past week in class, it had been on the range about 4 times and there was always something off about it. This time we decided to test it.

We determined it was stressed and took 5 rounds to settle in, then if you let it cool through the normal class activity you had to start over getting the first 5 rounds out of the way. This was a custom barrel put together by a well-known smith.

Sometimes you caught it right and things moved as normal, other times you caught it where nothing was the same until it was hot again.

Annoying is a word.

 

[orkan]

That a button rifled, as Frank Green is talking about... or button cut? Until just now, I wasn't aware button rifled was even a common thing.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

While we have FrankG a little pissed......I've got a question.

Frank - How do you lap a gain twist barrel? It seems like the lead slug would have to be really short to conform to the gain (kinda seems counter-intuitive to the benefit of conforming the bore i.e. tight and lose spots)........or you have to bump tighten the lead slug for each pass down the barrel?

I've always wanted to ask you this.

Ern

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Lowlight,

That's an interesting experience.

What stock was that rifle in? bedded or not?

Just curious.

Ern

 

[padom]

That a button rifled, as Frank Green is talking about... or button cut? Until just now, I wasn't aware button rifled was even a common thing.

There is no such thing as "button cut". There is cut rifled and button rifled. Cut rifling utilizes a rifling machine that literally cuts away material inside the bore, a little bit at a time, over many many passes to physically cut the rifling into the bore. This takes a lot of time to cut each barrel.

Button rifling, a literal "button" is pulled through the bore that displaces metal to form the rifling. Nothing is cut out. This process is fairly quick compared to cut rifling. This process induces lots of stress into the barrel because it is physically displacing metal so button barrel makers utilize stress releaving processes to remove as much stress as possible.

 

[Lowlight]

Lowlight,

That's an interesting experience.

What stock was that rifle in? bedded or not?

Just curious.

Ern

Custom build, MCM A5, bedded.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Not interested in your opinion, "Lowlight" stop sidetracking the thread

Frank G - My apologies for sidetracking your post, congrats on bringing new innovation to the industry.....I look forward to making chips from the new material.

 

[Frank Green]

Interesting, and thanks for the clarification. The way I read your post it just said "button" rather than button rifled, as being different from button cut.

No sweat!

Even when Kevin Thomas was at Sierra and this was like 20 years ago. He told me at a minimum the cut rifled barrels lasted 15% longer than the button barrels. Just remembered that.

 

[Supersubes]

That a button rifled, as Frank Green is talking about... or button cut? Until just now, I wasn't aware button rifled was even a common thing.

Only time I’ve ever read the term “button cut” used is when there’s a misunderstanding of the process. Just a mixing of terms between single point cut and button rifling. There is such a thing as a broach, which is a form cutter that cuts all the grooves at one time in one pass. Pistol barrels are frequently done this way. Buttons, as already mentioned, swage the rifling into a bore.

 

[Frank Green]

While we have FrankG a little pissed......I've got a question.

Frank - How do you lap a gain twist barrel? It seems like the lead slug would have to be really short to conform to the gain (kinda seems counter-intuitive to the benefit of conforming the bore i.e. tight and lose spots)........or you have to bump tighten the lead slug for each pass down the barrel?

I've always wanted to ask you this.

Ern

Ern, The lead is still softer per say so it will conform to the rifling to some extent and you hit it partially on the head as well. The barrels with a large gain twist in them we cast a smaller lap. So it's easier to do.

Tight and loose spots! Lapping is meant as a final finish per say. It shouldn't be used to try and change size and or achieve size and or take tight spots out. You have really tight or loose spots in the bore your just going to fight it.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Frank - I figured the "tight and loose spots" comment would get your blood pressure up. Thank you for your expertise on this lapping question I have had for a while.

I will not sidetrack this thread any more than I already have.

Cheers to the Bartlein crew for always pushing the envelope.

Ern

 

[orkan]

Only time I’ve ever read the term “button cut” used is when there’s a misunderstanding of the process. Just a mixing of terms between single point cut and button rifling. There is such a thing as a broach, which is a form cutter that cuts all the grooves at one time in one pass. Pistol barrels are frequently done this way. Buttons, as already mentioned, swage the rifling into a bore.

Right, but each manufacturer seems to have their own specific take on the process... further complicating the issue which makes it even more important to my point that there should probably be an effort to not over-simplify things too much, or paint with too broad a brush, as it were.

I've run lots of kriegers and lots of benchmarks. I can't say as either one had me feeling I was leaving performance or longevity on the table.

 

[Frank Green]

Frank - I figured the "tight and loose spots" comment would get your blood pressure up. Thank you for your expertise on this lapping question I have had for a while.

I will not sidetrack this thread any more than I already have.

Cheers to the Bartlein crew for always pushing the envelope.

Ern

Ern, You didn't get my blood pressure up! All is cool!

We are always looking for ways to make the product better etc...been doing this now for over 20 years and a better grade of barrel steel has always been on the table. Even a 25% increase in barrel life would be a positive thing from what has been around.

Thanks for the nice comments!

Later, Frank

 

[Supersubes]

@orkan I’d agree with you mostly. The difference between Bartlein and you though is that they have a vast data pool, which includes the reloading component and ammo manufacturers. Those manufacturers can track data like most can only dream, and they're almost certainly not operating at the “snipers hide no pressure signs at all” pressures.

 

[Frank Green]

Right, but each manufacturer seems to have their own specific take on the process... further complicating the issue which makes it even more important to my point that there should probably be an effort to not over-simplify things too much, or paint with too broad a brush, as it were.

I've run lots of kriegers and lots of benchmarks. I can't say as either one had me feeling I was leaving performance or longevity on the table.

Agreed!

I've always put on the table and that we would make our barrels at no charge....to get a button shop to make some barrels and we would make some barrels. The key is the barrels have to be made out of the same lot of material.

Then the barrels go to a test house and get tested. Everything has to be done the same. Same chamber spec used, same ammo or at least when lots are changed keep it documented, same cleaning intervals rate of fire etc...and run the test. You cannot do one or two barrels. Make it like 3-5 barrels of each. Run the tests. That's the way you would get honest data and results.

The data and info I have again isn't just based on what I see. It's feed back we get from places like ammo and bullet makers.

 

[Mech Eng]

Just a crazy thought have you ever considered using inconel for barrel material I know it is tough to machine but it might make a great barrel. Just a thought.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Why not make it out of the ceramic from shuttle re-entries?........everyone knows that heat erosion kills barrels.

 

[Ranger188]

Frank, I just picked up a barrel from the factory there on Tuesday (you weren't in)
Found it very interesting. It takes like 30 passes to cut the 5R barrel.
Will you still have 4 groove and the 5R barrels?
Since the barrel life is longer, will throat erosion take longer? Less fire cracking?
Did you see an increase in FPS, if all else was equal? (less friction)

 

[30cal user]

Why not make it out of the ceramic from shuttle re-entries?........everyone knows that heat erosion kills barrels.

make it out of the black box material from the airplane, since those always survive, just make the barrel out of that!

 

[StraightShooter77]

2 minutes ago

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Bartlein Barrels is pleased to announce the release of a new barrel material. Working with the mill and testing different types of material and tweaking the material over the last few years and with testing having been performed by ammunition makers we now have a different grade of material that we have had made and is proprietary to us.

The material has been proven in lab testing and in outside real world testing to provide a barrel life that is 1.5 to 2 times longer than the standard 416 grade of material.

We are calling the material 400MODBB. Pricing for this barrel material in standard diameters/contours etc...will be $555.

As always there are a list of things that effect barrel life and we cannot guarantee everything a 100% but for an example as I know it will be asked....in 6.5CM ammunition pressure test barrels are normally pulled from service at around 1700 rounds. The new material doing the same type of ammunition test work the barrel was pulled from service after it had 3500 rounds on it. We've had several 6mm's in calibers that the barrel normally is pulled around 1500 rounds go 3000 rounds.

We and or the customers that have done the threading and chamber work have had no issues with machining. I will say your reamers will not last as long but nothing that would really concern me. It does machine a little different but it's not horrible to work with.

So you will have a choice of the standard 416 material from us and the 400MODBB material.

Any questions it would be a lot easier if you emailed us at [email protected] or called in directly at 262-677-1717 but I can only imagine the amount of questions we will be getting and with everything going on in the world currently I'll ask you to be patient for the replies.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Always innovating! Great job Bartlein! Can't wait to see how these perform!

StraightShooter77

 

[spife7980]

There is no such thing as "button cut". There is cut rifled and button rifled. Cut rifling utilizes a rifling machine that literally cuts away material inside the bore, a little bit at a time, over many many passes to physically cut the rifling into the bore. This takes a lot of time to cut each barrel.

Button rifling, a literal "button" is pulled through the bore that displaces metal to form the rifling. Nothing is cut out. This process is fairly quick compared to cut rifling. This process induces lots of stress into the barrel because it is physically displacing metal so button barrel makers utilize stress releaving processes to remove as much stress as possible.

To illustrate the cut- one groove at a time

Vs a button- does it all in the same pass

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Frank, I just picked up a barrel from the factory there on Tuesday (you weren't in)
Found it very interesting. It takes like 30 passes to cut the 5R barrel.
Will you still have 4 groove and the 5R barrels?
Since the barrel life is longer, will throat erosion take longer? Less fire cracking?
Did you see an increase in FPS, if all else was equal? (less friction)

That's 30 passes per groove. 5R barrel means 150+ passes.

 

[LeftyJason]

Just a crazy thought have you ever considered using inconel for barrel material I know it is tough to machine but it might make a great barrel. Just a thought.

Are you out of your mind? Inconel is a pain in the butt to cut. I machine it all of the time. To get good looking threads we grind the threads. 75% of what I grind is inconel. Takes forever to machine. Even slower to grind under water based coolant.

 

[Mech Eng]

Where I work I only machine it every now and then when we need replacement parts are needed and yes it in not the most fun to machine but it should make a hell of a barrel and I did say crazy idea.

 

[DAVETOOLEY]

Where I work I only machine it every now and then when we need replacement parts are needed and yes it in not the most fun to machine but it should make a hell of a barrel and I did say crazy idea.

Crazy has probably already been tried with tax payers money many times.

 

[brianf]

Someone may know the actual info but I remember years ago Noveske tried some different materials for longer life.

I never found out what materials...anyone?

 

[Alan Warner]

An infused ceramic matrix is next. It's being done on exposed optical surfaces now. Inside a barrel poses a lot of problems to overcome. Maybe another 5 or 10 years.

 

[seansmd]

An infused ceramic matrix is next. It's being done on exposed optical surfaces now. Inside a barrel poses a lot of problems to overcome. Maybe another 5 or 10 years.

Like this?

DRACOS Barrels - StraightJacket Barrel Systems

The bullet never lies. When it comes to performance, the DRACOS StraightJacket® barrel is the most advanced lightweight composite barrel in the world.

www.dracosbarrels.com

Steel core, aluminum sleeve, a material filled in between and cured. No idea if it works or how it compares. They said they use Bartlien cores, and the life is extended due to much better heat transfer.

 

[LeftyJason]

Like this?

DRACOS Barrels - StraightJacket Barrel Systems

The bullet never lies. When it comes to performance, the DRACOS StraightJacket® barrel is the most advanced lightweight composite barrel in the world.

www.dracosbarrels.com

Steel core, aluminum sleeve, a material filled in between and cured. No idea if it works or how it compares. They said they use Bartlien cores, and the life is extended due to much better heat transfer.

I think he was talking about no steel cores needed.

 

[Raffy]

Frank, Im assuming barrel weights will be the same on the new vs old steel?

 

[Geno C.]

It’s still stainless so weight would be the same

 

[THEIS]

Like this?

DRACOS Barrels - StraightJacket Barrel Systems

The bullet never lies. When it comes to performance, the DRACOS StraightJacket® barrel is the most advanced lightweight composite barrel in the world.

www.dracosbarrels.com

Steel core, aluminum sleeve, a material filled in between and cured. No idea if it works or how it compares. They said they use Bartlien cores, and the life is extended due to much better heat transfer.

Hi,

Here is my opinion on that concept....
1. The internal barrel steel still gets the maximum temperature and flash point burn inside it, no matter what is placed externally of it as a "heat absorbing filler".
2. By the time the heat reaches the exterior of the steel barrel aka the fill material...the part of the barrel that fire cracks has already taken all the heat as if it were a "traditional" barrel.

NOTHING IMO is going to increase barrel life unless it touches what burns/erodes the barrels out and that is done internally not externally.

Ceramic metallization and even sapphire metallization is a cure to heat erosion and fire cracking but nobody is ready to pay 8k dollars per barrel type thing for a manufacturer to recover the R&D cost over the span of the market shelf life.

Frank and his crew have put in the leg work and the MONEY work...buying an entire mill run of anything is not cheap, especially once you start talking about modifying its' chemical makeup from "run of the mill" alloys.
In a world of "New Normals", lol.....I am looking forward to this new normal.

Sincerely,
Theis