If you’re posting on snipershide, not one arms gimps hide, none of those probably apply
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Best home defense is no suppressor? / zero distance
- Thread starter TurboTrout
- Start date
If you’re posting on snipershide, not one arms gimps hide, none of those probably apply
Why not just go straight to the larger weapon?
I have a dog, he isn’t exactly vocal, but if something is very amiss he’ll let me know, get locked in the room with my chick and I’ll take it from there
I've never shot a gun at a human but I've killed lots of critters during "bump in the night" situations when my dog starts going nuts.
Usually something's after my chickens or steeling the barn cats food.
For the sake of my ears and the neighbors, I'm happy to have a can screwed on.
Can't imagine regretting that if the vermin ends up being a biped.
Usually something's after my chickens or steeling the barn cats food.
For the sake of my ears and the neighbors, I'm happy to have a can screwed on.
Can't imagine regretting that if the vermin ends up being a biped.
I’ve answer this all in the first two or 3 post in the beginning.
Because of the ever so low chances of needing to be getting in a gun fight, in my room, is superseded by the over weighing fact that I don’t want kids or anyone i don’t personally authorize to have unfettered access to weapons laying about, and because my wifes shit takes up so much closet space. There’s a spot within arms reach next to us on both sides of the bed that pistols go.
I have a whole room…like walk in safe, with gear in it. With various redundancies in early detection, and the fact that I can see someone driving up to the property for miles, it leaves a small chance of someone getting in unnoticed.
But……
If someone does, and in the unlikely event everyone sleeps through the sounds of a construction site during said break in, and find them in my space, I rather have a handgun. Because it’s going to be a fist fight until I keep shooting a mother fucker to death or rip a mother fuckers eyes out and kick his face in. A rifle wouldn’t help, either way if some creep is standing over you. It really is just on you at that point, worst case.
In the event of an attempt of force entry, I walk to the war room while the wife dials 911, get my shit and prepare to move everyone as soon as they make entry. Which would require some power tools. They’ll be there awhile.
In the event that they bypass security doors and begin making entry, the wife in kids move towards nearest exist from our pos, and leave the house. 911 being called. We got a few fenced backroads and trails that lead out, but no real neighbors. Open country for awhile. Yes, our response time is particularly in the sticks is particularly bad. Like you, I don’t have large faith in the “system.” Being apart of that system myself.
Even if there’s more than one person and they are outside at least we have room to move. It helps that my wife knows her way around a rifle too, but for the kids sake, it’s best to create distance. Everything else can be replaced. Maybe I’d be willing to just stand outside if need be and be the worlds greatest witness if it’s low risk and if it might help.
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I might suffer from ear damage, but the effect on one or more perps in front of me is going to be priceless, especially if it happens to be my 308 Win, that sometimes rests next to my bed....
Less than 1% of the people that post here are operator enough that they will be able to recall how many shots they fired let alone what it sounded like in this situation.
If you are that good in your planning be smart.......put a piece of real coal next to your ear pro.
Insert coal in ass, don earpro, go on your adventure.
You will have a perfect diamond fall out of your ass at the end.......and you will be wondering who was pulling the trigger on that gun, in those strange hands out in front of me?
If you are that good in your planning be smart.......put a piece of real coal next to your ear pro.
Insert coal in ass, don earpro, go on your adventure.
You will have a perfect diamond fall out of your ass at the end.......and you will be wondering who was pulling the trigger on that gun, in those strange hands out in front of me?
Let's do evolutionary science.....first off all these things I have experienced in training and despite that I can not overcome them. I am not a less than 1%er.
You hear a bump in the night that concerns you enough to get a gun and start the signal "fight or flight".
Your evolutionary adapted body starts auto pilot.
Adrenaline dumps into your blood stream.
Since man hunted brontosaurus lots of wounds happen in the extremities....start constructing those blood vessels to keep juices flowing through the core and brain.
Your fine motor skills start to degrade, "Damn that 1911 safety is small".
Your senses sharpen but particularly so on the important information. Few years ago female police officer in NYC was lauded for shooting a bad guy in the gun.....it was a failure but a fine example of how perfect your body and senses can be. Her brain misperceived the gun as the threat and acting on auto pilot told the hands to shoot the gun. She should have training to over ride the evolution and shoot the real threat the man.
Oddly your ears will do two things....A they will become sharper but B they will protect themselves.
You may be able to perceive the slight shuffle of feet sneaking down the hall but when the fight happens the noise is considered a distraction and they shut off to allow your brain to concentrate on the physical. "Kill the ears, let's give the hands more ability".
Likely it is different in supported combat where the brain says "Wait communications mean life, let's make sure I can hear my support".
But....when you are in a hall and it's you and a bad dude your amygdala is going to be in control and you have reverted 10,000 years in evolution.
Are you going to be in a team or single combat?
Get the dog.
One of two things will happen.
A. You will be laughing as you hear some dude squealing in fear as he is savaged by your dog.
B. He will shoot your dog and you will be so hot to fuck it doesn't matter.
You hear a bump in the night that concerns you enough to get a gun and start the signal "fight or flight".
Your evolutionary adapted body starts auto pilot.
Adrenaline dumps into your blood stream.
Since man hunted brontosaurus lots of wounds happen in the extremities....start constructing those blood vessels to keep juices flowing through the core and brain.
Your fine motor skills start to degrade, "Damn that 1911 safety is small".
Your senses sharpen but particularly so on the important information. Few years ago female police officer in NYC was lauded for shooting a bad guy in the gun.....it was a failure but a fine example of how perfect your body and senses can be. Her brain misperceived the gun as the threat and acting on auto pilot told the hands to shoot the gun. She should have training to over ride the evolution and shoot the real threat the man.
Oddly your ears will do two things....A they will become sharper but B they will protect themselves.
You may be able to perceive the slight shuffle of feet sneaking down the hall but when the fight happens the noise is considered a distraction and they shut off to allow your brain to concentrate on the physical. "Kill the ears, let's give the hands more ability".
Likely it is different in supported combat where the brain says "Wait communications mean life, let's make sure I can hear my support".
But....when you are in a hall and it's you and a bad dude your amygdala is going to be in control and you have reverted 10,000 years in evolution.
Are you going to be in a team or single combat?
Get the dog.
One of two things will happen.
A. You will be laughing as you hear some dude squealing in fear as he is savaged by your dog.
B. He will shoot your dog and you will be so hot to fuck it doesn't matter.
So, in this scenario, it is the ATF that is breaking in?
- Nov 3, 2010
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Oh shit, now you've done it - by introducing this logic, you're inviting the real Tough Guys here to suggest that you don't care about your family.
I'm still trying to get my 3yr old to shit in the toilet but as soon as he masters that, we're moving to CQB training.
He doesn’t shit in the toilet? No problem. He’s just laying land mines. That’s next level tactical. Only a toddler is capable of that kind of out of the box thinking.I'm still trying to get my 3yr old to shit in the toilet but as soon as he masters that, we're moving to CQB training.
All the talk about earpro, who the hell would have time to put them on. Give me a suppressed rifle/carbine
Part of being a parent is talking to your kids and helping them to understand that sneaking in and out, or having friends sneaking in an out could result in one of them getting smoked. Its no different then teaching them safe firearm handling or any other type of responsible parenting.
Target ID is still a thing.
People need to use their brains and stop making dumb statements.
Target ID is still a thing.
People need to use their brains and stop making dumb statements.
Ok, I have read the thread but may have missed it. Many seem to like the option of SBR with or without a suppressor. As I understand it SBRs and suppressors have to under your control or locked up. So if leaving one next to your bed, do you lock it up when you leave the house? Or take it with you? I could lock in a box in my truck, but if in the wife’s car that isn’t an option. i just hate to open my safe that often. maybe a smaller easier to open “security” box/safe?
You'd be shocked how frequently in stress induced Simulations training the gun/gun arms are hit.
Under stress people focus in on the threat... which is the GUN, not the person at the moment.
They'll remember clear sharp details of the gun but not know the race of the person that was holding it.
At the Academy doing Simunitions training I shot the “threat” right in the ring finger of his support hand just before he unloaded 5-6 in my chest.
Maybe he would have only double tapped me had I not fucked up his hand.
If you got the shot off first, I doubt there are many people that would have been able to follow through with their shots accurately immediately after with a 9mm hitting their fingers/gun.
Round likely would have penetrated to the rear/gun hand fingers as well if hit during a two handed hold.
Speed counts, especially indoors/close quarters.
LOL. Figured I might get something like that. Honest question since I really would like my SBR out and with me. just looking for ideas…
"hello fellow 2A advocates"
1. calling people “ignorant” immediately turns off some people.
2. wrt not using a shotgun or using a rifle or a pistol is a personal choice based on many different reasons. My home has brick veneer and likely no rifle round will exit the home unless it goes thru a window. But that’s not why I choose to use a shotgun for HD.
3. in my experience a single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior. Where I’ve seen 5.56 go right thru people and they continue doing what they were doing.
4. have you ever actually shot #4 thru drywall? And 5.56 ball, or Remington PSP, or 45, 357, 357 mag? I have. Which is why I chose #4buck for my HD. If you haven’t, I’d suggest you build a few walls at the range and have at it. As for me..I did it, and showed it to the captain of the SWAT team, and we looked at all the videos of the Box’o’truth online. And the swat guys moved to a better round for the ARs. And I moved to a 12ga.
you do you
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You want to get groceries for your family of 8 with a fucking Ferrari, cool. Thinking of hitting the drag strip with your bone stock 7.3L Powerstroke '99 Excursion? I'll be cheering you on.
Are their tools that work more effectively in certain situations than others? Definitely. Use whatever the fuck you want. Know the limitations of your kit. As long as it's a centerfire SOMETHING (pistol or rifle) then focus on training. Even if we scientifically proved that Glock Foties turned 75° medially were the ideal HD tool, if the monkey squeezing the trigger has no fucking clue what he's doing, he or she is at the greatest disadvantage.
Are their tools that work more effectively in certain situations than others? Definitely. Use whatever the fuck you want. Know the limitations of your kit. As long as it's a centerfire SOMETHING (pistol or rifle) then focus on training. Even if we scientifically proved that Glock Foties turned 75° medially were the ideal HD tool, if the monkey squeezing the trigger has no fucking clue what he's doing, he or she is at the greatest disadvantage.
Well good sir I'll tell for sure. This is a non issue if you hear anything at all it will be a pop pop sound if you actually have to shoot. The phenomenon of auditory exculsion occurs in most cases. You are hyper focused on the threat your facing so much so that you have no perception of sound. What actually takes place in seconds will feel like minutes or even hours to you. I was once holding a murder suspect at gun point waiting for my partner and the two other cops that were involved in the surch. At roll call we were told that this punk was a real hard case with nothing to lose and had said he'd kill the next cop that tried to take him in. I remember looking at my front sight and noticing well it covers the button on his shirt that was point of aim. When he made his last bad decision on this earth and reached for the Browning HI Power he was carrying I fired Six rounds of .38 spl at a distance of about 10 feet in a small alley. All I remember was they sounded like pop pop pop pop pop pop. I remember rolling the trigger through each shot one at a time. When the three other officers got there they told me that they thought I used a machine gun on him. What seemed to me took several minutes and carefully amid individual shots actually happened in two three seconds. The moral of the story is, don't worry about it.
I'm going to say the moral of he story is wrong there. It is "I remember looking at my front sight and noticing well it covers the button on his shirt that was point of aim."
I think you have a very unrealistic view of what occurs if your forced to shoot an intruder in your home. It's just your suppressor that goes to the police station, it your gun and you that go with it. Defending yourself and your home is not a crime but the police are going to investigate the incident and verify your story. You can't just blow somebody up claiming it was self defense and they will just take your word for it and you can go back to bed. My state has both the castle doctrine and stand your ground. Even still your going to get a ride in a Police car and a tour of the police station until they investigate what happened.
What you say in your post about the ideal weapon for winning a gun fight is all very well and good. The most important factor your ignoring is that the average citizen and cop isn't part of some hi speed spec.ops./SAWT team. They have to rely on a handgun because that's all they have. They can't walk around with a rifle or shotgun all day/night. As a recon marine I had the best weapons to win a gun fight. As a regular cop all I had to fight with was the handgun in my holster. We had a .12ga shot gun in the car but didn't take it out unless it was a gun call we were responding to. It's always better to have a bigger stick than the other guy but that's not always practical for most of us. It's so that rarely are two gun fights the same but enough are them are similar to the point where effective training can be developed to win them hence the training you claim that you and your company provide. 90% of the civilians/cops that are involved in a gun fight 98% of the time will only be armed with a handgun. As the old saying goes " you fight with what you have, not with what you wish you have".Well in classic fashion we’ve descended into the realm of the less than qualified opinionslook is a free country, do whatever you want but I’d urge us all to consider the aspects of the ego at play here.
Each fight that occurs is unique. No two gunfights are ever the same…BUT you will over time notice trends…BUT to truly understand and interpret, and integrate trends you need context. Context arrives from experience, experience can be personal which while powerful profound is often statistically limited. Other forms of experience come from the institutional or organizational perspective. This is the collective organization of the members individual experiences that will shape and develop a coherent doctrinal outline for the collective, the purpose of which is to enhance the groups abilities to succeed.
“Strength of the wolf is the pack, the strength of a pack is the wolf”
Some of you are probably wondering what the I am rambling on about. Let me say it simply:
Some of the things I am reading in this thread are fuck’en retarded. Comments that lack any grounded perspective other than it’s just been regurgitated over and over and thus have no context. Misplaced priority or concern on nuanced aspects while completely disregarding key principles is another issue.
That being said, don’t take this personal, this isn’t an attack on anyone, I simply think if we going to have a dialogue that’s somewhat productive rather than just an echo chamber, it needs to start with an honest self assessment. The point of a this discussion (any really) isn’t to “win” the argument but leave with something of value.
So quick background, personal I have 19ish years of military service, mostly in special operations. Heavy focus on sniper stuff but I cut my teeth as rifleman and assaulter long before that. I currently work for Ridgeline, our primary clients consist of special operation units both US and Foreign as well as others better not mentioned. Our staff is small but robust and includes LE and Mil operators from near every service (sorry Air Force) as well as other organizations outside of DoD. One of our primary contracts is a Low-Visibly Operator Course focused on small team (1-4 PAX) SUT/CQB in and around vehicles and residential structures with pistol/sub/carbines from concealment.
Here’s the notes relevant to the original post some additional observations.
Pistol/Subguns - These suck at winning gunfights when it comes to putting metal on meat. Better that a sharp point stick but a rifle/carbine is a whole magnitude of ballistic effectiveness above a pistol cartridge even with a sub gun. While there are a plethora of circumstances that might allow you to come out on top with a pistol vs a rifle, you won’t always be able to control those BUT you can control what you start with and a rifle is a better option.
Also I’ve seen A LOT of people shoot pistols over the years and I probably can count on one hand the number of people that are good enough with a pistol for it to be an confidently welded as an effective primary.
And that’s one of the points of concern here that I keep seeing, that “pistols are for CQB”. No they are NOT a primary weapon system, they are a backup another platform or a compromise for situations such as environments that demand concealment. If you think that rolling single handed with a pistol, while carry a baby in the dead of night against unknown threats is a good idea, you’re fuck’en bananas. The priority is to win this fight so stack the deck in you favor.
Suppressors - John Lovell already it laid out. VIOLENCE OF ACTION. As a singleton or a small team the psychological factor of unsuppressed fire in the confines of CQC is significant. I see this every time we teach the LVOC. Everyone, even seasoned hitters tend to be like “Goddamn!” when we roll unsuppressed in vehicles or tight rooms. I want everyone involved to be second guessing their decisions, 10.3” has that effect. Obviously amplified hearing protection is a thing, so just do it.
Keeping a rifle or shotgun handy to repel borders is always a better choice than a handgun. It really doesn't matter much if the bad guy (s) are part of a BLM riot or not they are just as much a threat.
Don't go on a surch and destroy mission in your house if you really believe there is an intruder (s) in your home. Get your family together if you have one or just yourself in the most secure place you have. Have your weapon in hand and call 911 on your cell phone or regular phone. Stand fast and wait for the cavalry. If that's going to take to long wait for them to come for you. The defender always has the advantage. Getting out of the house is certainly a good option but isn't always a practical one due to weather and other factors. As far as the active shooter goes. I guess it depends on the circumstances. If you can escape do so. Your no good dead to yourself or your family. As hard as it may sound you and your family are number one. You only have a one in three chance of winning that fight. Those are not good odds. Only engage if you have no other choice or your defending children that cannot possibly defend themselves. Other adults should take the responsibility and initiative to provide for their own defense. They aren’t your responsibility. This be a sheep dog Bullshit is for suckers.
Speaking out either on a forum or in person is the right of every American wether Joe Biden likes it or not. One King tried to stop Americans from doing that a long time ago. Remember how that ended? Americans aren't so good at being told to shut up. Apparently some in government and media need to be reminded of that.
You'd better brush up on your state laws. You are going to have to call the cops at some point. The majority of us live in places where a Police respons is available. In unusual circumstances such as extreme weather or other situations where that wouldn't be a quick remedy your going to have to more self reliant. If the weather is that bad what makes you think a friend or relative can get to you any faster? My point is don't put yourself in that situation if you don't absolutely have to. The good guys don't always win. If you put your wife and kids in the master bedroom and then go out and try to find out what went bump in the night and don't come back, who protects them now. The easiest gunfight to win is the one you don’t get into. Put the little head back in your pants and start thinking with the big one. If possible and practical let the police handle it, that's what we pay them for. That will potentially save you a half million in attorneys fees or the rest of your life in prison or the long dirt nap if this goes sideways and they often do.
There isn't much walking on 2 legs a well applied load of 00 buckshot won't put down. If one isn't enough try 3. Law enforcement switched to the patrol rifle for a number of reasons one of these wasn't because the shotgun sucks. Law enforcement and homes defense are 2 entirely different circumstances.
I have many years of LEO experience on both the east and west coast (11 years LAPD). How much of grow a bit is that in your mind? How far off of your block have you ever traveled?
Thankfully the odds of you ever having to do such a thing are extremely low. But if it did ever happen, being suppressed will probably be of benefit.
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I say if you’re posting on this site you have more than just a pistol, and if it’s a home defense gun that being used on your property, why limit oneself to a pistol?
It's like this tootsie. Who ever you claim you pointed a gun at walks away and once out of your sight calls the cops claiming all he/they did was look around for you to ask you if you were interested in selling the property or for directions and you pointed a gun at them saying you were going to kill themHaha! I’m sure you are smarter than me and know more, but you are pretty ignorant of life in the mountains of Idaho. I’m not calling cops first. That’s laughable!
I’ll deal with what I have to as the situation dictates, the cops take way to long to arrive, and I don’t feel like discussing it with a feminist liberal dispatcher while I have a ongoing threat.
I have had someone at gunpoint in my front door. Actually in that case the cops were never even notified. Is that illegal? Nope. I committed no crime. So if there is a law that says “you must call 911 if you feel threatened” then please tell me.
Watch how quickly you get a Police respons. Your the one who gets a ride in the black and white taxi to the gray bar hotel. That ain't no way to spend time. You get to sit there until you see the Judge who sets bail that you probably can't raise for a felony assult with a firearm. This is 2022 not 1922 and a lot of water has passed over the dam since then. If you point a firearm at another person your using deadly force weather you pull the trigger or not. If your involved in a use of force incident and you do wound or kill someone life as you know it is over. The cops do their investigation. If they have enough to charge you with felony murder they will. Looking at the shit you post on social media like this forum they probably will. Your words will come back and bite you on your ass. You just told the world that the law doesn't apply to you. The evidence they have goes to the Prosecutor and they decide if they have enough to bring to a grand jury to get an indictment. If they do you go to a jury trial. Twelve reasonable people will decide whether you go home or spend the best part of the rest of your life in prison. Don't believe it? Try it someday. I spent 40 years in law enforcement both in a big city (LA) and a couple of small towns and a University Police department before I decided to retire. You'll never find a more pro 2A self defense rights cop than myself. What I'm telling you is the way it is not the way you think it is. Think if the cop didn't see it I didn't do it? Prisons are full of people that thought nobody saw what happened until the whiteness tells their story to the Jury that convinced them. Like the guy/gal that was waiting in the car or the whiteness that claimed they saw it. It's your word against theirs and unless your attorney can impeach their testimony who do you think the jury will believe based on posts like this and statements you probably make all of the time to anyone that will hold still long enough to listen to you. I'll give you some free leagl advice. There are 5 elements that your plea of self defense must have when your attorney needs to build your case of self defense. Immense, innocence, avoidance, proportional and reasonable. I know those are big words. If a prosecutor can eliminate just one your claim of self defense goes away and so you do you. A jury trial like that will set you back north of $500,000. If your convicted and the state appellate court grants an appeal or the judge declared a mistrial and the Prosecutor goes after you again you can double this. I personally have one of the insurance policies that will cover up to six million in legal fees and costs provided I did it right. I'd rather not have to use it. Being a retired cop I have the small advantage of my testimony is considered unimaginable unless proven so, yours ain't. The moral of this story is you really better have a VERY good reason for pointing a gun at someone and no other reasonable option when you pull the trigger. If not and you do, God have mercy on you because a prosecutor won't. Police, prosecutors judges and most juries know that the plea of self defense is Bullshit 90% of the time. It's what their attorney tells them to plea.This ain't a tolerant society today when it comes to killing people no matter how much they may need it.
I'll remember you said that when I read about your conviction at your felony murder trial and your sentence of most of the rest of your life in prison... BOY
For myself personally I have all 3 available to repel borders. The one I chose will depend on the circumstances. 80% of the people that own/carry a firearm only have the one.
It's not always likely you have enough time to plug in ear plugs or would even think to do so. Don't worry about the noise, you probably won't notice it in the moment. Having a ringing in your ears for a while isn't even an issue when you just fought another man for your life and won.
Consider that it might just be smart money to just evacuate your house and get to safety rather than shoot it out. The good guys don't always win. What's the main objective? Survival anyway you can. Do what ever you have to, use any advantages you have to not get killed. I could have shot it out with a burglar once. I chose to slip out of my apartment and go down to the corner and call dispatch and wait for the calvary. Being a cop myself I knew I could have tried to arrest the punk, but why put myself in that kind of jepordy when I had other options?
100 million firearm owners and 300 million privately owned firearms. The math doesn’t even work out in general terms…
He, however, does make a good argument for being the only witness…
Your correct. Use the most powerful firearm that you best feel will fit the dynamic of the situation. Don't listen to bozos like that. Your the one that is best qualified to determine what you need/want to cope with your environment.I don’t sleep in the closet, and I’m sorry if that’s your situation in life
The gun is in the closet close to my bed, align with other closet type shit
Yeah the pistol worked, but I could do better, and I have the equipment, so
Yeah one CCTV is worthless, but in this age of digital video and the internet, lots and lots of these videos out there
So if I’m going to have a firearm close to my bed, I have lots to choose from, why not have the one best suited to the environment In that spot? I don’t have to conceal it, so why have a secondary class weapon?
I have only had one instance when I needed to use my gun in self defense, a attempted home invasion, thankfully I didn’t need to fire it, that being said I do work in a environment where we constantly train for things going sideways, one of the big factors is you have more time than you think, but you never have enough time to rush, not sure how well that applies to the shitbird trying to break into your home genre
