Sidearms & Scatterguns Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

#51
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

I just got a great idea! Why don't we discuss the merits of say 9mm vs .40 S&W vs .45 ACP??

Mods , what do you think?
 
#52
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Stupid is as stupid does,...Blaming everything except the dip shit pulling the trigger.
Some folks are so easily led or drawn into believing everything they think they see or hear, it's even far past, Alabama funny.

Just because folks charge for their "Teaching" time, a expert that does not make. You attend/take enough classes your smell'er may get tuned up.

Uncle has some very fine classes, for those that need them,...and never allowing anyone to touch your weapon, is the first order of training.

The mind is a terrible thing to waste, and a few have proven that fact in this thread.
 
#53
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

3per, I got your pm, your ability to articulate and expand upon an idea is so astounding that you rival shakespear! For anyone that wants to know the intellecet of the pm I recieved from him, here it is, "you are a fucking moron! :D"

I am so overwhelmed by the maturity and intelligence that is 3per, that I bow before his thought provoking ideas and master of the english language! The depth of that thought that went into "you are a fucking moron" no average person could have came up with something so amazing, but 3per is an a league of his own when it comes to the mastery of writing, obviously!
 
#54
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

if you harm yourself or put yourself in harms way drawing a handgun then you are stupid, and dont know what you are doing...plain and simple...

there has never been a holster made in the history of firearms that some slack jawed moron has not hurt himself, or others misusing..

i have a serpa for every handgun i own and shoot well over 10,000 handgun rounds a year...never has there been a issue with any of them....if you hurt yourself? learn how to draw a gun, and learn how to be a little less stupid
 
#55
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

So, if you have a Serpa they're the greatest thing since the invention of smokeless powder; if you don't own one they're a walking death trap?
 
#57
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim-
Dominating LE? Again you go one world as if no other pistols exist. In the beginning there was great resistance to Glocks, they were roundly dismissed as unsafe due to no 'real' safety. <span style="font-weight: bold">Then a good sales program and everyone was on board</span>, now as other makers wised up other designs are becoming popular. </div></div>

I don't think it was just a good sales program.
Glocks are and has been excellent, reliable and affordable tools for decades.
 
#58
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Just dont be this guy........He was using a CQC holster....

I use one at work and never had an issue with my finger going into the trigger guard....even under stress....
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=share"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=share" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Sorry didnt realize someone posted this already....

 
#59
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, if you have a Serpa they're the greatest thing since the invention of smokeless powder; if you don't own one they're a walking death trap? </div></div>

I dont think they are the greatest thing since smokeless powder. Training is more important than equipment is what I think everyone is saying.
 
#60
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3per, I got your pm, your ability to articulate and expand upon an idea is so astounding that you rival shakespear! For anyone that wants to know the intellecet of the pm I recieved from him, here it is, "you are a fucking moron! :D"

I am so overwhelmed by the maturity and intelligence that is 3per, that I bow before his thought provoking ideas and master of the english language! The depth of that thought that went into "you are a fucking moron" no average person could have came up with something so amazing, but 3per is an a league of his own when it comes to the mastery of writing, obviously!


</div></div>

So are you professing that you are not "a fucking moron"? Why don't you show the folks a screen shot with the title of the PM I sent you?
 
#61
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Count me as in the camp that finds these holsters fundamentally unsafe. If I were a lawyer, I'd be suing them. Besides being junk, the retention feature suffers from what I firmly believe is a design flaw.

I really hate when I see a cop carrying in one of these holsters while on duty. Usually it's the plain clothes guys. It's a shame that any legitimate departments even allow them.

I agree whole heartedly with Jim in that any holster that requires one to take a grip that is so close to the ragged edge of safety when drawing is fundamentally unsafe. It's less unsafe with a 1911 where the safety should not be removed until the gun is in front of you. Either way, however, relying on a mechanical safety is not advised. The real tragedy is that the guns they are used with most often--striker fired guns--are the application in which they are most unsafe.

You will never see me carrying a gun in a holster designed in that manner.
 
#62
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's less unsafe with a 1911 where the safety should not be removed until the gun is in front of you. </div></div>

Any/all mechanical safety's sole purpose is try an prevent the final act of stupidly by the user.
Nothing in life is safe, including your next breath that's why gas masks are issued at times.

Trying to prevent or engineer out stupid can't be achieved with many, many folks. 110% Muzzle control is taught why? Because it's the last resort, to try an stop a finger that is uneducated by it's supervisor, from shooting self or others.

The weapons don't seem to go off when in or out of the holster, by their self's. That being the case, what other element comes into the mix to cause the AD?

Fact, many things in life you can't see, will hurt or kill you. Being untrained is a danger no matter the task, that's why ER Doc's can write books on what the end result was, to someone being stupid.

Like Ron White says,...You can't fix stupid,....

Lawyers,... would have you believe everything is engineered, improperly. Yet only 1%(or much less many times)of the users have problems, what about the 99% of those that don't, are they super humans?

You can't teach common sense to those that can't even think for their self's.
 
#64
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3PER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3per, I got your pm, your ability to articulate and expand upon an idea is so astounding that you rival shakespear! For anyone that wants to know the intellecet of the pm I recieved from him, here it is, "you are a fucking moron! :D"

I am so overwhelmed by the maturity and intelligence that is 3per, that I bow before his thought provoking ideas and master of the english language! The depth of that thought that went into "you are a fucking moron" no average person could have came up with something so amazing, but 3per is an a league of his own when it comes to the mastery of writing, obviously!


</div></div>

So are you professing that you are not "a fucking moron"? Why don't you show the folks a screen shot with the title of the PM I sent you?

</div></div>

Please don't take this personally
started by 3PER
Participants: ubet
 
#66
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It's a poor man who blames his equipment for his mistakes and failures. </div></div>


Per my Grandfather, circa 1955 to me,
A true craftsman never blames his tools,...

In 1965 I made the following comment to a Captain, who hosed up a grid call, and damn near got many of the wrong folks killed.


"When a man blames his tools, it's do to a lack of ability",...Sir
 
#67
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

This was a very good thread. I plan on attending some pistol training courses. I will definitively check to see if my Serpa holster is acceptable.

I also learned some very important thing to watch for in using this holster.

I have a Serpa holster. I like it and feel it's safe for what I use it for.

I run a Beretta Px4 Storm model F. I think is one of the best and safest pistols on the market.

The safety and de-cocker push up and are located on the side. If Ted-want-a-be had been using a model F he never would have made that video.
 
#68
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lawyers,... would have you believe everything is engineered, improperly. Yet only 1%(or much less many times)of the users have problems, what about the 99% of those that don't, are they super humans?
</div></div>

If 1% or even .1% of items sold as dangerous weapons are so unsafe that it causes a catastrophic physical injury to the operator, it doesn't matter what you call the other 99-99.9%--the item is flawed by design and not fit for marketing in a civilized society.

If 1% of the people who drove Toyotas were killed when sticking throttles caused them to hit brick walls at 120 mph, the government would probably force them to recall them. It would rightly be viewed as a terrible catastrophe and might even bankrupt a healthy corporation indefinitely.

The Serpa holster, even when operated correctly and as designed, is extremely unsafe. That people who use additional precaution can use it without suffering an injury doesn't change the fact that it is simply unsafe by design.
 
#69
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Based on your logic, I'll bet I can prove to a jury even the paper in a printer is dangerous, less it be made with a fire retardant additive or an edge so dull it will not cut you, or used in a manner to inflict pain to the handler, of same.

First you have to be smarter than the objects you encounter, as being at a lower level of perception/intelligence than any man made object, is why ER Doc's have a long waiting line, an lawyers run around chasing injury cases. TV is full of, did this cause this, were you injured by XXX,... call now, allow Hook, Crook, an Shyster, to get you paid for being stupid.
Have you spilled hot coffee in your lap lately, it's not your fault, allow H,C & S punish those responsible for your injury's.

The stupid fucks that want to play Rambo, John Wayne or Clint Eastwood that shoot their selfs or others, want to put blame everywhere except where it belongs. If you don't have or understand muzzle control, let alone finger control you have no business handling any weapon, period. You are responsible for your own actions, no one else was handle the weapon but you. Own up to your inability an lack of training. If the weapon never went off with out you handling it, drawing or re-holstering it, who was to blame,... Casper?

The problem with lackeys, it's never their fault, it has to be someone else,... anyone except them.
Lawyers have tried to instill this fact, but jurys that have even one person who can think for their self an speak up, are very far an few between, plus dangerous to "The System. Why would that be???


 
#70
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Zero-
Wow, just plain freakin wow.

Here in the Hide, where damn near EVERY thing we do, even if we do it correctly, has a .1% chance of doing bodily harm the lawsuit card gets played with a straight face.

I am reminded on demolition work, crimping the blasting cap on primacord. Less than half the margin of error on the serpa holster gets you several fingers missing from your hand. There are many ways to attach the cap to the cord, but the cheapest and therefore most used method is crimp the sucker on.

But the numbnutt holding the demo pliers needs training and to keep his head in the game or his nuts will be in the trees.

Bottomline on Toyota comparison is keep floormats away from your holster. Find me a device with more than 3 parts and I can deliver you an idiot to proof it and a lawyer to sue over it.

You must be new, welcome to America!
grin.gif


Migraine-
NOW Glock has a good record, but when it first came to the land that worships the 1911 it damn near died on the door step. Plastic POS, jam-o-matic, dangerous junk

Compared to the 1911 the plastic body felt cheap
Limp wristing caused most the stovepipes, but was blamed on design
Compared to the 1911 the lack of dedicated safeties looked just plain insane.

But Glock followed the business model Leupold and Remington laid down. Salesmen armed with sweeeeet discounts worked out deals with a few major departments that started the Police train going.

Price is a funny critter to get a handle on. I look at what I paid for my XD45 and the Glock is no deal. Throw in the grip and thumb safeties and my XD45 is a GREAT deal.

Now all the talk of cheap, small parts, and the like got me thinking as I shot my LTR today. The Remington 700 uses a cheap little POS 'pop-top' as the extractor. Not a massive claw like a mauser, classic win, or even a r, rrrr, ah r-ruger.

So the wags clucked about how to 'improve' the design 'flaw'.

You can weaken one of the locking lugs and install the so-called Sako extractor, can cut into the bolt body and install the M16 extractor or-

You can leave that cheap assed pop-top in the bolt face groove and use what thousands of soldiers, and cops have bet their lives on.

I don't think anyone with personal experience said the Serpa is THE best holster since we quit hanging pistols around our necks.

Just it is safe enough, rugged enough, affordable and easy enough to SAFELY operate.

Obviously some others don't. Another some think even the slightest chance of 'danger' means don't use or do whatever. Then again some more somes wonder just how light a trigger or just how spazzy the ND guys have/are.
 
#71
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Been using them for a year now, with a Sig P250.
Like both. Judging from this thread I am not sure which will draw more scorn; the weapon or the holster.
laugh.gif


One holster is atttached to the rear of my vehicles center condsole with the BH quick-disconnect; for comfort when driving....or when I must leave it now and then.

I like the quick-disconnect as well.....gets the holster out of the way when I carry passengers in the back seat.


 
#72
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Based on your logic, I'll bet I can prove to a jury even the paper in a printer is dangerous, less it be made with a fire retardant additive or an edge so dull it will not cut you, or used in a manner to inflict pain to the handler, of same.
</div></div>

This is ridiculous and wrong, and suffers from a fundamental disconnect from the word "reason" in the reasonable man standard. Is using a fire retardant on EVERY sheet of paper a reasonable precaution because there is a 1 in 500 trillion chance that a piece of paper will burst into flames and result in destruction of the printer before a person puts the fire out? I think not. Any reasonable person would agree with me. It's not about transferring blame--it's about minimizing injury, and yes, that includes injury that comes from careless oversight of the necessary level of precaution.

Is a car without brakes on all 4 wheels fundamentally unsafe? Maybe not by the standards of 1920, but I'm sure that nearly all reasonable people today expect every modern vehicle to have functional brakes on all 4 wheels. Does that mean that if your car won't stop in 50 feet from 100 mph that it's unfit for the road? Absolutely not, as that expectation is unreasonable. It does not follow that there are no standards whatsoever delineating a reasonably safe vehicle from one that is so unsafe as to be unworthy of operation on the public roadway.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zero-
Wow, just plain freakin wow.

Here in the Hide, where damn near EVERY thing we do, even if we do it correctly, has a .1% chance of doing bodily harm the lawsuit card gets played with a straight face.</div></div>

Sorry but I just don't agree. If I had a 1 in 1000 chance of a catastrophic injury every time I fired a firearm, I'd have a couple dozen catastrophic firearms injuries or close calls every year. My own evaluation of the empirical evidence doesn't suggest that the error rate is anywhere near .1%. A .1% error rate with a dangerous weapon is extremely unsafe. I'd venture to say that anyone who is so unsafe with firearms as to cause a serious injury or a close call .1% of the time is so unsafe that he should be banned from owning or handling firearms. With that said, my judgment isn't necessary on that. A person who is that unsafe will eventually find himself in jail; our society would certainly not tolerate a person with the potential to cause that kind of injury.

All actions have risks, and some are more than others, but a .1% risk of serious injury when talking about a dangerous weapon is WAY too much when the cost of a serious injury is so high.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am reminded on demolition work, crimping the blasting cap on primacord. Less than half the margin of error on the serpa holster gets you several fingers missing from your hand. There are many ways to attach the cap to the cord, but the cheapest and therefore most used method is crimp the sucker on.

But the numbnutt holding the demo pliers needs training and to keep his head in the game or his nuts will be in the trees.</div></div>

If that were true, there'd probably be a lot of demo guys missing fingers or the worker's comp insurance would be so high that your company would find it pretty hard to do business.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bottomline on Toyota comparison is keep floormats away from your holster. Find me a device with more than 3 parts and I can deliver you an idiot to proof it and a lawyer to sue over it.</div></div>

I actually agree with this statement. People are poor judges of probability and aren't as careful as they otherwise should be. It does not follow that there is no such thing as a product that is unsafe by design and unfit for our markets. The Blackhawk Serpa is among them, and if I were a lawyer and had a client injured by the Serpa, I would be more than happy to sue the manufacturer and <span style="font-weight: bold">let the jury decide</span> if my assessment that the Serpa is unsafe by design is true or not. I suspect that most juries full of citizens from our population would agree with me. My experience with juries is that they're nowhere near as irrational as you may think and that people, on the whole, take their civic duty seriously.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now all the talk of cheap, small parts, and the like got me thinking as I shot my LTR today. The Remington 700 uses a cheap little POS 'pop-top' as the extractor. Not a massive claw like a mauser, classic win, or even a r, rrrr, ah r-ruger.

So the wags clucked about how to 'improve' the design 'flaw'.

You can weaken one of the locking lugs and install the so-called Sako extractor, can cut into the bolt body and install the M16 extractor or-

You can leave that cheap assed pop-top in the bolt face groove and use what thousands of soldiers, and cops have bet their lives on.</div></div>

Or you can do what I did and buy a Winchester. Call me unconventional but I think the R700 is a cheap piece of crap compared to the Winchester design. Perhaps I'm the discriminating type and only want the best. Maybe the difference is irrelevant. Either way the R700 extractor doesn't fail at anywhere near .1%. There are plenty of rifles out there with 20,000+ rounds that are still functioning just fine.

Some say that the R700 trigger is so unsafe that it should be recalled, etc. I don't have the experience to comment, but I will say that if they failed .1% of the time, America's oldest gunmaker probably wouldn't be in business.

And for the record, I own and use Remington shotguns and am mostly happy with them, I just prefer the Winchester design when it comes to bolt guns.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think anyone with personal experience said the Serpa is THE best holster since we quit hanging pistols around our necks.

Just it is safe enough, rugged enough, affordable and easy enough to SAFELY operate.</div></div>

I don't disagree that it CAN be safely used. There's a lot of things that can be safely used that are still too unsafe, when compared to their market alternatives, so as to make them unfit for sale in our markets. I personally believe the Serpa is among them. But remember--the decision won't be made by me. It'll be made by a jury who, following a serious injury or death, will decide if the Serpa's design flaw caused that injury, and if so, what proportion (percentage) of the loss ought to be borne by the shareholders of Blackhawk. In other words, it's just my opinion and it doesn't matter that much what I think because it's not up to me.

Could I argue the other side with a straight face? I think so. I would hate to be that guy, though. Arguing that the Serpa design is safe is going to be an uphill battle when the plaintiff's side has a person who is permanently crippled after shooting himself in the leg.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously some others don't. Another some think even the slightest chance of 'danger' means don't use or do whatever. Then again some more somes wonder just how light a trigger or just how spazzy the ND guys have/are. </div></div>

I think we're mostly on the same page.

I use the Ghost holster in competition and have done thousands of presentations from it, both with the lock on and the lock off. That said, the Ghost holster is improperly blamed for a LOT of dropped firearms when used improperly. It's NOT a piece of equipment that is designed for people who have poor gun handling skills or don't know what they're doing. It took me a long time to get comfortable with it and I'm still not sure that it's that much faster than a regular kydex holster. Using the Ghost involves some degree of risk that I am willing to bear to have a somewhat faster draw. I'm not against that.

I am against the Serpa because it requires that you put pressure on the side of the holster in a way that encourages the finger to go towards the trigger once the gun clears the holster enough to grant access to the trigger. Even someone who is well-trained and practiced with the Serpa could hurt himself very easily given this necessary part of the draw stroke with the Serpa.

Even the Ghost does not require that kind of draw. The switch (when locked) is deactivated with the middle finger. The Safariland uses the thumb. Other holsters use some combination of thumb pressure and pushing/canting the gun in a certain manner.

In short, there are some levels of risk that we choose to accept. Usually they are based on risk that we can avoid and what the costs are. The Serpa holster creates a risk that is unnecessary. Other holsters provide the same level of retention and safety, but don't require us to use a technique that is unsafe and unsound just to draw form them. In other words, we have safer options that aren't any more expensive. Settling on the Serpa is, simply, a bad choice.

This is only my opinion but I don't have a problem expressing my opinion, because I've used all kinds of holsters and the Serpa is the only one I've ever seen that I find so unsafe that I won't use it at all.
 
#73
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

zero,

You need to go back to Ill, an try again to acquire a spot on obummers team. You train of thought is dated an there's not enough bandwidth for your view to pan out for you here.
Your not dating W. Gold-burg are you?
People like you have been this country's problem for along time, never own up to their mistakes, always spouting, I was injured because of,...this is where you point your finger towards XXX.

You remind me of the legal Whore in Atlanta Ga. back in the mid 80's that sued Ford. Golden spoon kid bought a new car, took it for a lap around the outer loop. Was seen speeding and given chase, at 125mph he got just what he deserved, killed his own Dumn ass w/o taking anyone else with him. His mother hired the fore mentioned flesh in a suite, that had your train of thought. They sued Ford Motor Corp, for not telling him(GET THIS) your buying a car that will travel fast enough to kill you! Yes it was a H/O Mustang, Ford Settled out of court. They quickly regretted that fact, as there was no jury from the south that would have awarded to them. Yet to this day every car an truck has caution an warning stickers do to that day. Who's paying for his stupid-ness?

I for one am happy he killed his self, before his kind could reproduce.

Common sense is taught by Parents, an those you hang with before the age of 15,....like Forrest always said,...stupid is as stupid does.
 
#74
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am against the Serpa because it requires that you put pressure on the side of the holster in a way that encourages the finger to go towards the trigger once the gun clears the holster enough to grant access to the trigger.</div></div>

That is total horse shit.

The Serpa CQC forces you to put the trigger finger on the release button. Then as you pull the gun from the holster it forces you to lay your trigger finger along the slide.

It works the same way with revolvers using CQCs, only your finger lays extended along the frame below the cylinder.

Since this crap came up, I've been trying to duplicat the dudes action (with empty guns of course). I have to make a consience effort to put my finger in the tigger guard.

Watching and re-watching the video several times convnces me its a typical "HEY, LOOK HOW FAST I CAN DRAW AND SHOOT" youtube video that went bad. I'm not saying the guy shot himself on purpose, I'm saying I believe he put the finger in the trigger guard on purpose in an attempt to get the shot off faster.

It's got nothing to do with the holster, its simply a case of piss poor firearms handling.

Had he not released the safety, it wouldn't have happened, had he been using a Glock, Sigma, or simular double action pistol it wouldn't have happened. But we had a light trigger that comes with a single action pistol, disconneted safety. I'm convinced he put the finger on the trigger (and probably does it all the time, to get the shot off faster.

All of which (regardless of type of holster, gun, whatever, could have been avoided if he followed the Four Basic Firearms Safety Rules.

That crap would have gotten him barred from every range I know of.

In reality, if you were to get a shot timer, and do a little bit of testing, you'll find there is zero (I mean NO) speed advantage of putting your finger in the trigger while drawing if you plan on getting the round anywhere near the target.

All this crap teaches new shooters is "IF YOU SCREW UP, BLAME THE GEAR"

I just can't believe all the people who claim to know what they are talking about blaming a piece of plactic for some dudes screw up.

And after my rant, I'll get back to working on my lawsuit against HP cause their 'puter is causing my poor spelling.
 
#75
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Zero-
I don't think you understand chance. a 50/50 chance doesn't mean everytime you flip a coin and it comes up heads the next time it will be tails. Nor does it mean that half your flips will be heads and half tails. It doesn't mean if you get heads three times in a row the next will be tails. Each flip starts the odds anew.

So the SLIGHT odds that each and everytime there MAY be a catastrophic failure and that includes faulty ammo, it is a complete process not just one part, starts anew with each trigger pull. Doesn't mean by your 1,000th trigger pull your face will be missing.

Onething I meant to ask when you first mentioned the odds thing. Where did you get the failure rate of the serpa?

If I may suggest, you are not THAT discriminating when it comes to what rifle you own. I too own a winchester, I feel quite secure in saying it isn't THE BEST rifle out there and it too has had issues in QC as it attempts a line of cheap rifles to compete with Savage.

But you ignore THE point I was making about what some think is cheap and flimsy. MILLIONS of men have written the pop-top extractor record in mud, crud and blood. Unlike the early days of the Mattel Toy, no men have been found curled up around their Rem700 that had an empty case stuck in the chamber.

Armchair experts with .001% the experience have declared the design flawed. Yet that little piece of tempered steel keeps soldiering on.

Funny thing about all the focus on the trigger finger tripping the release lever.

Before I transitioned to the serpa I used the old standby thumb break holster. learned on a glock and then when I bought the XD I got a thumb break for it too.

Perhaps it is a function of the compact weapons for fingers to stray. Any facts on that?

I find my full size pistol allows me three clear fingers to extract the pistol from holster. I also believe the 'flaw' in extracting the weapon is in how confident and how cleanly the pistol can be gripped and yanked up on under pressure.

Now when I was learning on the Glock17 and thumb break holster I noticed any bobble would have ALL my fingers grasping the weapon with the trigger finger wanting in the trigger guard so badly. It seems a reflex action, not solid on the grip and the other fingers want in on the pull.

So while some see the flattened finger on the serpa release as the ragged edge of safety and the cause of ND's I see lack of training prior to going hot as the culprit.

It seems to me no matter the release system, a bobbled presentation has fingers scrambling into places they shouldn't go until you have cleared the holster. The pressure needed to set the pistol off isn't 4 ozs, You have to SQUEEZE that sucker.

The 7 Ps, please

PROPER prior practise prevents piss poor performance.

If you don't like the serpa, don't use one. But do not attempt to claim the finger release is the ragged edge of safety. Quite a few of us have actually been on the ragged edge and there is a huge difference between safety and training.

The real ragged edge is a quickie two day pistol class with a bunch of newbies who will got hot before lunch with gear they have spent less time fondling than their first all the way girlfriend... and have as poor a result!

But like I said, there is a bit of danger in any firearm scenerio, just how willing you are to accept it is up to you.
 
#76
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Obviously the comments about ambulance chasing and unreasonable fact patterns are going to continue so my part has been said. Ultimately it will not be you or me who will decide, but rather a jury assigned to the case.

The personal attacks regarding a lack of personal responsibility are also uncalled for. I am not blaming anyone else for my actions. I refuse to use the Serpa. I'm not out there using the unsafe product and then saying that someone else is responsible. The relevant factual question for the jury is whether the Serpa suffers from a design flaw that renders it unreasonably dangerous. I strongly believe that the answer to that question is yes, and I have stated my reasons why.

A striker fired pistol is, first of all, not "double action." Furthermore, none of us can say whether it would have happened with a gun that has a heavier trigger, or even if a striker fired gun would have had a heavier trigger. I can make a 1911 have a heavier trigger than a factory Glock. I can make a Glock have a trigger pull weight that is probably as light as a factory 1911. One thing that is certain is that the 1911 had a <span style="font-style: italic">shorter</span> trigger pull than the 1911. Assuming that nobody was inside the gun, the trigger pull weight was probably in the 5 lb range, which is comparable to the popular striker fired pistols on the market. I do agree however, that proper use of a properly fitted thumb safety could have completely negated any injury and that certainly should be a factor that is considered. It does not follow that an unreasonably safe design did not cause that person's injury. It just seems to me that people here don't think that the manufacturer of the holster has a duty to NOT produce something that is unreasonably dangerous, as if it is somehow inconsistent with capitalism or something. This is wrong. Furthermore, once someone’s finger is on the trigger, relying on trigger pull weight as a safety is insufficient. Once the holster’s design places the user’s finger on the trigger while the gun is pointed as his leg, all bets are off, regardless of trigger weight. Pulling the trigger also negates any passive safety devices designed to eliminate unintentional discharges.
I perform thousands of holster presentations every year and I agree that the Serpa can be operated safely. The flaw, as I see it, is that the design puts the user too close to an unsafe condition. Every Serpa user is courting with disaster every time he draws.

I know I’m not crazy, because the flaw of this design are now common knowledge, especially as they are banned by more and more firearms training classes. Fortunately I have the choice not to use them, and don’t. If you want to use one, be my guest. I just do not recommend them or use them myself, and I will continue to warn users of what I believe is the design flaw from which the Serpa suffers.

I use Comp Tac and Blade Tech kydex holsters and intend to continue to do so. If I needed a retention holster, I’d be using a Safariland.
 
#78
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....the holster’s design places the user’s finger on the trigger.....</div></div>

If this were true, you would have a point. But it isn't.

When you draw from your holster of choice, where is your trigger finger?

Mine is straight and along the frame, regardless of the holster type, and I use a few different ones.

 
#79
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

MM,

He is in locked step with folks that always pass blame, and that kind of thinking can't/won't be changed by anyone. It matters little who says what, but the bottom line is this. Never has a weapon gone off while being unattended (save ammo cook offs). Yet to hear the liberal point of view, that makes no difference.

Then again I know the best place to be tasked, is within the target group your trying to bring down. Blend in, an slowly persuade others to believe w/o a doubt your point of view. Chip away at anything long enough an all sheep will give up. That's been going on in this country from the 30's on. I'm one of those sons-a-bitch's that can tell the difference between rain an warm piss running down my back.
 
#80
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Zero- again you pick a nit on a long post and ignore 99% of it.

NO WHERE
NO HOW
NO WAY

Did I say reliance on trigger pull wieght is any sort of safety so kinda quit putting words in my text! What I did say is it takes more tug than passing brush with the trigger to set most pistols off.

What I did notice you never produced a fact, stat or even a first person report on the subject.

Instead you use one of the weakest reasons, if it can even be called that.

Let a Jury decide.

Now every election cycle most in here agree that torte reform is a MUST. Many feel that in the USofA the lawyer fee driven lawsuit system is out or control.

A drunk can get into his car, drive around a curve, hit a tree, sue and WIN millions of dollars! He sues the car company for making an unsafe car, tire company for poor stopping ability, the sign company for making a sign he couldn't read with his eyes closed, the property owner for planting the tree there, the nursery for growing the tree and the local church for having a Gawd who would let all this bad happen to such a great and noble guy!

Perhaps a better group of people to consider isn't one of our so-called peers, most likely none on the jury an expert pistol shooter, would be range owners.

Not just the few super ninja pistol instructors but the local range owners who are not pushing some new but rarely improved pistol skills. Those few who have only one way to instruct and think all else is crap.

Go to most any range and they will have at least one universal rule. With FEW exceptions it is- NO PRACTISE FROM THE DRAW

Not just serpa owners, not just Glock owners, not just guys with their sights on the side of the slide.
wink.gif


No Sir, everyfreakinbody. Now if one inferred so much from a few one way only ninja pistol instructors then an entire nation's, save one or two, worth of range owners prohibiting ANY quicks draw McGraw work ought to scream at you.

Training over equipment
NO piece of gear is flawless
A Cherry with the world's best gear is still an accident waiting to happen

Girls lie when they say size doesn't matter, the bigger the wallet the more they are in love!

and the winchester isn't the best rifle made
grin.gif


Good day Sir
 
#81
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

I don't care what holster it is I'm using...my trigger finger lays along the slide, after the draw, until I'm ready to fire. Serpa, Bladetech, Safariland or Joe's Tacticool Ninja Holsters. Doesn't matter. I then consciously insert my finger into the trigger guard, apply firm, rearward pressure on the trigger and fire the weapon. I'm the one doing that and my particular holster of choice does not cause me to do that.

I'm in agreement with the "use what you like" crowd. Choice is a good thing and doing so for your own reasons is fine. If you don't like the product fine. I personally don't own a Serpa but have had the opportunity to use several on occasion and found no problem with them.

Sheesh. The holster made me shoot myself in my leg? Whatever. A persons inattention and lack of training allowed them to do that.
 
#82
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let a Jury decide.</div></div>

yeap that will work. An idiot lawyer picks non gun people, who are already convince that everything bad in the word is because of evil gun companies, that their coherts who make holsters and other gear. The only reason people shoot or rob other people is because of evil gun companies and holster makers. We all know that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">“We obviously want to track that back and figure out how it was stolen, with the idea of trying to prevent these sorts of things from happening again,” Grand Rapids Police Chief Kevin Belk told the Grand Rapids Press. “One of the problems we have with our shootings, most of them are involving stolen firearms.”

The only way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again is to track the weapon back to the gun manufacturer, then burn its factory to the ground.


Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/There-Are-No-Legal-Guns-125393318.html</div></div>

All we get out of it is higher prices on our sporting implements and ugly looking "gone with the wind novels) written on the sides of our guns tell us what anyone with a brain should know in the first place.

Regardless whay you do, some friggin idiot will find a way to screw up and put his finger in the trigger guard when he/she isnt suppose to, and will get more bs regulations and higher cost to persue our sport.

Maybe a better ideal is when running a range, or conducting a match, instead of running the idiots off, we should cut off their trigger fingers......................nah that wont work, some one would sue because they cut their fingers sharping the knife.

You can't fix stupid, you can't legislate against stupid, you can only punish the rest of us.

Fuck it, I'm glad I'm old and don't have to put up with this bull shit much longer.
 
#83
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... One thing that is certain is that the 1911 had a <span style="font-style: italic">shorter</span> trigger pull than the 1911.
</div></div>

What does this mean?
 
#84
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fuck it, I'm glad I'm old and don't have to put up with this bull shit much longer.</div></div>

I don't believe that, nor down deep, do you.

We have lived this long for a reason,... Mostly because it's almost always, the old guys who step up first an say enough.

Planted folks are hard to finger at times, but a quick review of their thoughts an roads is a dead give away to guys who can think for their self's, and been down more road's than one.

This is one of those subject's, where my avatar starts coming out.
 
#85
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now every election cycle most in here agree that torte reform is a MUST. Many feel that in the USofA the lawyer fee driven lawsuit system is out or control. </div></div>

Courts have also ruled that tort "reform" that prevents plaintiffs from collecting COMPENSATORY damages is unconstitutional. I agree that caps on punitive damage awards may be a viable policy, but the suggestion that one ought to be able to transfer compensatory damage cost to an injured plaintiff is totally inconsistent with any system that values personal responsibility and accountability.

Nowhere did I ever say that someone should not bear their share of the blame for pulling the trigger and putting a round through their leg. I'm just perfectly okay with living in a world where some percentage of that blame that is attributable to faulty and poorly designed equipment can place the financial burden where it is due.

I agree with you that it takes more than a "passing brush" to break the trigger of any safely functioning firearm. I didn't respond to much of what you said because I agree with you. I believe the purpose of the forum is to discuss points of disagreement, not to trumpet that which we agree.

You are continuing to use unreasonable examples to support your position. No reasonable person expects a car to protect a drunk driver from his own reckless conduct, and no decent judge would allow such a case.

My torts professor once stated, "we could make a car that could crash at 200 miles per hour and keep everyone safe inside and walk away. It would cost a million dollars. Would that be reasonable? Think about it.

Furthermore, my torts book was written by one of the most famous <span style="font-weight: bold">libertarian </span>law professors in the academy, Richard Epstein. Those of you who think that tort law is full of a bunch of progressive whack jobs who think that the law exists to protect idiots from themselves need to read that statement very carefully. One of the most famous living libertarian mind wrote the book that I used to study tort law. Try telling him that the tort law is full of ambulance chasers and that no <span style="font-style: italic">legitimate </span>cases of products liability exist. I'm sure you can find his email address online somewhere.

I'm off to change out of my suit and go to the range--one that allows drawing from a holster--to do a couple dozen presentations. Of course I'll be following this thread and continuing to wait for the barrage of people trying to suggest that I'm some kind of communist scum because I think that companies ought to be responsible for the products that they build AS WELL AS individuals responsible for the actions they take.

Call me nuts for that if you want.
 
#86
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Just as I suspected, debate long enough an truth steps from the shadows. Your good with words but,... most of us are the kind of folks that are never chosen for jury duty, because we are the Trump Cards, to a out of control system.

May be we should start lying an work the system from the other side,...well no not really,...That would make us no better than the ones we oppose.
 
#87
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Here's a simple fact,

Trying to draw from a Serpa with your release finger where the trigger would be, will make it impossible to draw. You will be pressing in on the lock, instead of the release.

The release location actually forces your trigger finger to a safe position along the frame.

What the shooter does with his trigger finger after the release is entirely on him/her, just as it is with any holster.
 
#88
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

I'd like to see some of the training resume's of the guys here preaching "training over equipment". Chris Cerino shot himself with one.http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/12/firearms_training_officer_acci.html

Anyone here defending the Serpa a better shooter than him? If so, speak up.

Dozens of people have shot themselves using THIS holster. Find me one who shot them self while drawing from a Safariland ALS. Just <span style="font-weight: bold">ONE</span>... if you can.

This holster doesn't "force" you to keep your finger flat, nor out of the trigger guard. All it forces in inward pressure with your trigger finger on the button.

MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it, either. It is fundamentally flawed, and inferior in durability to it's competition. It's mass marketed and cheap...most people paying money to take training classes are using holsters like Raven Concealment, Safariland, Comp-Tac, etc. They are looking for a quality product.

If anyone wants to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about with pistols and drawing a gun, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with anyone here. Training credentials, pistol shooting scores on your choice of drills (on video if you like), draw times from concealment or open... name it.

If folks want to keep buying Serpa's, go ahead. You have every right as an American to purchase the cheapest piece of junk you like.
 
#89
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to see some of the training resume's of the guys here preaching "training over equipment".</div></div>

I'll give you my resume if you are really serious, it's enough to show I know if safety rules are followed, you don't shoot your self in the ass regardless of the equipment. I don't think it matters since, according to your link all it says is the dude was a LE Firearms instructor.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone here defending the Serpa a better shooter than him? If so, speak up.</div></div>

I didn't say I could shoot better then anyone, but I've been known to keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to shoot.

Nothing in that article said what type of holster he used. It says he pulled the gun from the holster and shot himself in the leg.

LETs see:

Assume gun is always loaded, No Go

Never point gun at anything you dont want to shoot, NO Go

Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot, NO GO (unless he wanted to shoot himself in the leg.

Besure of of your target and back ground NO GO

Sorry, you're link doesn't supply much to support your equipment failure theory.
 
#90
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to see some of the training resume's of the guys here preaching "training over equipment".</div></div>

I'll give you my resume if you are really serious, it's enough to show I know if safety rules are followed, you don't shoot your self in the ass regardless of the equipment. I don't think it matters since, according to your link all it says is the dude was a LE Firearms instructor.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone here defending the Serpa a better shooter than him? If so, speak up.</div></div>

I didn't say I could shoot better then anyone, but I've been known to keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to shoot.

Nothing in that article said what type of holster he used. It says he pulled the gun from the holster and shot himself in the leg.

LETs see:

Assume gun is always loaded, No Go

Never point gun at anything you dont want to shoot, NO Go

Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot, NO GO (unless he wanted to shoot himself in the leg.

Besure of of your target and back ground NO GO

Sorry, you're link doesn't supply much to support your equipment failure theory.
</div></div>

Here:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/film-television/152855-top-shot-20.html#post2690869

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/concealed...s-needed-2.html

There was a post he authored on AR15.com, but that thread was in GD and is gone now. Here is what he wrote:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I gotta tell you Russ. I won't hide from anything or anyone. These guys are all entitled to their opinions. I will not register for the site.

If you want to you can go on to it and tell them that I said "at least I didn't get shot with an unloaded gun" Most people are shot with unloaded guns.

When you engage in dangerous activities sometimes you get hurt. I didn't hurt anyone but myself. It was a learning experience.
I was using a new holster (serpa) which requires me to use my trigger finger to unlock the retention device.

When the button didn't work I pushed and pulled harder. Look at what your fingers do when you grip something harder and pull harder.
The trigger finger slipped into the trigger guard and carried on thru the trigger. I shot myself high in the front of my pelvis and down my leg.

It left a mark on my leg and my brain. I am stronger and a better instructor for it. Tell the naysayers to come do what I have done for the past 8 years FULL TIME and see how shit happens.

How many of them have done something unsafe or dangerous but it didn't hurt someone or they were lucky enough to never have anyone talk about it."</div></div>

Keep looking into it, if you like:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...mp;aql=&oq=
 
#91
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

OK says he used a Serpa.........

He was runner up for Top Shop.......................And, that just means he's showmanhip material. They don't chose the top shots, they chose people based on showmamship, or what sells commericals.

No one is going to pay to watch a 1 hour TV show to watch Gary Anderson stand up and shoot record scores in 300 Meter ISU Competion. You certainly can't say Gary Anderson can't shoot because he's not on TOP SHOT. But you can't find anyone to break his 300 Meter Off hand Scores he shot in the 70s.

What this has to do with the topic is beyond me.

A Serpa nor any other holster forces you to put your finger in the trigger guard.
 
#92
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to see some of the training resume's of the guys here preaching "training over equipment". Chris Cerino shot himself with one.http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/12/firearms_training_officer_acci.html

Anyone here defending the Serpa a better shooter than him? If so, speak up.

Dozens of people have shot themselves using THIS holster. Find me one who shot them self while drawing from a Safariland ALS. Just <span style="font-weight: bold">ONE</span>... if you can.

This holster doesn't "force" you to keep your finger flat, nor out of the trigger guard. All it forces in inward pressure with your trigger finger on the button.

MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it, either. It is fundamentally flawed, and inferior in durability to it's competition. It's mass marketed and cheap...most people paying money to take training classes are using holsters like Raven Concealment, Safariland, Comp-Tac, etc. They are looking for a quality product.

If anyone wants to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about with pistols and drawing a gun, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with anyone here. Training credentials, pistol shooting scores on your choice of drills (on video if you like), draw times from concealment or open... name it.

If folks want to keep buying Serpa's, go ahead. You have every right as an American to purchase the cheapest piece of junk you like. </div></div>

Interesting, so you believe only those who are faster than everyone else on a one way, are the only ones to qualify equipment, where basic muzzle control an the trigger finger, mean nothing. It's the design of the gear, first an foremost. Is that about right?

First of all,... All my training from Uncle an others drill into you long before any gunfight starts, if you are not assessing/planning/controlling, the situation before any enemy/bad guy weapons are even drawn, you fucked up royal.
If your pushed into making self inflicting mistakes in the draw while under pressure, a safer environment, may be a better life skill for you.

Second, no piece of gear will make you place your finger into the trigger guard, that is a decision, conscious or other wise, your brain made, no one else. No one jumps from an auto to a 5 speed mid racing season, they wait until off time and get in a lot of practice, first. If your putting your finger into the trigger housing before the weapon clears your body, no matter the holster, your going to be a stat for the Brady bunch.

Third, I can point to many folks that have/had all the paper work you can tote at one time, that said they were the best thing for the gig. However when it came to use the gear for it's intended purpose, they came in second, and because others believe they were all that, they went into bags or on a gurney as well.

This debate is about products vs training, but it could go another way if your so inclined.
 
#93
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK says he used a Serpa.........

He was runner up for Top Shop.......................And, that just means he's showmanhip material. They don't chose the top shots, they chose people based on showmamship, or what sells commericals.

No one is going to pay to watch a 1 hour TV show to watch Gary Anderson stand up and shoot record scores in 300 Meter ISU Competion. You certainly can't say Gary Anderson can't shoot because he's not on TOP SHOT. But you can't find anyone to break his 300 Meter Off hand Scores he shot in the 70s.

What this has to do with the topic is beyond me.

A Serpa nor any other holster forces you to put your finger in the trigger guard.

</div></div>

He was also a full-time firearms instructor for 8 years before going on the show.
 
#94
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He was also a full-time firearms instructor for 8 years before going on the show.</div></div>

SO,

He still screwed up. I don't care if he was a firearms instructor for 100 years, if he put his finger in the trigger before he had the gun lined up on the target he FUCKED UP.
 
#95
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to see some of the training resume's of the guys here preaching "training over equipment". Chris Cerino shot himself with one.http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/12/firearms_training_officer_acci.html

Anyone here defending the Serpa a better shooter than him? If so, speak up.

Dozens of people have shot themselves using THIS holster. Find me one who shot them self while drawing from a Safariland ALS. Just <span style="font-weight: bold">ONE</span>... if you can.

This holster doesn't "force" you to keep your finger flat, nor out of the trigger guard. All it forces in inward pressure with your trigger finger on the button.

MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it, either. It is fundamentally flawed, and inferior in durability to it's competition. It's mass marketed and cheap...most people paying money to take training classes are using holsters like Raven Concealment, Safariland, Comp-Tac, etc. They are looking for a quality product.

If anyone wants to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about with pistols and drawing a gun, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with anyone here. Training credentials, pistol shooting scores on your choice of drills (on video if you like), draw times from concealment or open... name it.

If folks want to keep buying Serpa's, go ahead. You have every right as an American to purchase the cheapest piece of junk you like. </div></div>

Interesting, so you believe only those who are faster than everyone else on a one way, are the only ones to qualify equipment, where basic muzzle control an the trigger finger, mean nothing. It's the design of the gear, first an foremost. Is that about right?

First of all,... All my training from Uncle an others drill into you long before any gunfight starts, if you are not assessing/planning/controlling, the situation before any enemy/bad guy weapons are even drawn, you fucked up royal.
If your pushed into making self inflicting mistakes in the draw while under pressure, a safer environment, may be a better life skill for you.

Second, no piece of gear will make you place your finger into the trigger guard, that is a decision, conscious or other wise, your brain made, no one else. No one jumps from an auto to a 5 speed mid racing season, they wait until off time and get in a lot of practice, first. If your putting your finger into the trigger housing before the weapon clears your body, no matter the holster, your going to be a stat for the Brady bunch.

Third, I can point to many folks that have/had all the paper work you can tote at one time, that said they were the best thing for the gig. However when it came to use the gear for it's intended purpose, they came in second, and because others believe they were all that, they went into bags or on a gurney as well.

This debate is about products vs training, but it could go another way if your so inclined.



</div></div>

You evidently have not used this holster in a FOF training environment. Virtually every instructor who runs aggressive FOF training, or who induces significant stress on their students via other means, will tell you straight out how fingers curl when people don't get a clean draw and pull harder, and how easily fingers go into the trigger guard because of that.

I have seen more than a couple fingers fly into the trigger guard myself, while I was working full time as a range officer (saw something like 500,000 rounds go downrange on my watch, there). There was never an ND because of this while I was there, but I saw the potential for it, and have people come close to it.

Defoor was the chief firearms instructor at Blackwater USA for years, and will tell anyone who asks how many radio calls he heard for students who had ND's using that holster (often shooting their own leg in the process). He started the safety brief in my class by asking if "anyone using a SERPA? No? Good. That should drastically reduce our odds of having anyone shot here today since no one is using that piece of shit."

I guess Vickers doesn't know how to spot a troublesome product either.

I'd bet a paycheck that the average students who goes to train at BW or with Vickers knows a thing or two more about the safe use of a firearm than some of the contributors here in this thread to the Serpa's defense.

Like I said, if anyone here wants to suggest that the dozens of SERPA holster users who've shot themselves with it, boils down exclusively to a training issue...feel free to share just how much you believe in getting solid training on the use of pistols.

Other wise, all I see is a bunch of Serpa owners who want to defend their choice in holsters, and try to write off all of these documented issues as not being a problem for them because "they are trained and know what they're doing."
 
#96
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He was also a full-time firearms instructor for 8 years before going on the show.</div></div>

SO,

He still screwed up. I don't care if he was a firearms instructor for 100 years, if he put his finger in the trigger before he had the gun lined up on the target he FUCKED UP.


</div></div>

Yep, due to the natural event of fingers curling when you pull hard on a stuck firearm, and curled fingers entering the trigger guard due to the required action to draw the gun.

If you need to see video of how this happens, watch the youtube video again of the dude shooting himself.
 
#97
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Lets knock off the Bullshit that those of us who support training and firearm safety over blaming the equipment don't have experience to back up our claims.

Just because we haven't shot ourselves in the ass doesn't mean we don't know what we're talking about.

Training Resume
 
#98
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Again the holster does not make you breach the trigger guard.

If you panic an hose the draw, how is that a holster issue? To everyone I know that's a lack of knowing/operating your equipment, and where your trigger finger is, or will do when you, again you, make a mistake. I can show you many things that can go to shit when the operator panics, but that is not a gear problem, that's a operator issue.

Many a claymore was said to be defective, come to find out the FNG never knew how to off the safety, because he did not know it had one. Let alone off it at 0-dark thirty, when he's now in his first firefight, ever.

Doing real life stressed training gigs, w/live ammo, while not knowing your gear 125% is a stretcher ride in the waiting. But, that is another subject, this one is about product deficiency. If you drive on ice, slide an kill someone, who is responsible, the car or driver that put the car into that cone of danger, that killed someone. Would you switch to a 5 speed from an auto w/o lots of practice before a race?

Chris Cerino even admitted he was very new to the holster, as I suspect is the common theme. I've seen many a 1911 guy try to off the thumb safety that's not found on Glocks, and I've also seen Glock guys pulling the trigger so hard on a 1911 one cut his finger to the bone. Neither of those were a weapon issue, but one guy stood there as lead was whizzing by, and another cashed in 10 years of hard work, because he froze up.

You know as well as anyone, you don't pickup, new to you gear, an run it, there's down time to partner up with it. For if you don't, those are the story's you read an hear.

We never allowed a 2nd LT (and sometimes a first)to call Tact Air or indirect for a reason, unless we were in fact having lunch far away. The Maps, compass, radio, or other ends(mostly) ability's were never in doubt. A Butter bar ability's under stress however was. Once they gained some field experience it was a none issue.
The saying Slow is smooth, an smooth is/becomes fast, has more truth than many understand.
 
#99
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

If you can't operate a SERPA or any other holster or pistol without violating the following safety rules you should stick to airsoft

Keep your f'king finger off the trigger
Keep your finger off the f'king trigger
Keep your f'king finger off the f'king trigger.


I cannot believe how much some folks are willing to type on this topic.

I appreciate all the concern for my safety that is being expressed by the anti-SERPA camp, almost as much as I appreciate the Brady bunch's effort to legislate my safety.

If you don't like 'em don't use 'em. If you have them and decide they are a threat to your safety, mail them to me.
 
#100
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to see some of the training resume's of the guys here preaching "training over equipment". Chris Cerino shot himself with one.http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/12/firearms_training_officer_acci.html

Anyone here defending the Serpa a better shooter than him? If so, speak up.

Dozens of people have shot themselves using THIS holster. Find me one who shot them self while drawing from a Safariland ALS. Just <span style="font-weight: bold">ONE</span>... if you can.

This holster doesn't "force" you to keep your finger flat, nor out of the trigger guard. All it forces in inward pressure with your trigger finger on the button.

MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it, either. It is fundamentally flawed, and inferior in durability to it's competition. It's mass marketed and cheap...most people paying money to take training classes are using holsters like Raven Concealment, Safariland, Comp-Tac, etc. They are looking for a quality product.

If anyone wants to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about with pistols and drawing a gun, I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with anyone here. Training credentials, pistol shooting scores on your choice of drills (on video if you like), draw times from concealment or open... name it.

If folks want to keep buying Serpa's, go ahead. You have every right as an American to purchase the cheapest piece of junk you like. </div></div>

Interesting, so you believe only those who are faster than everyone else on a one way, are the only ones to qualify equipment, where basic muzzle control an the trigger finger, mean nothing. It's the design of the gear, first an foremost. Is that about right?

First of all,... All my training from Uncle an others drill into you long before any gunfight starts, if you are not assessing/planning/controlling, the situation before any enemy/bad guy weapons are even drawn, you fucked up royal.
If your pushed into making self inflicting mistakes in the draw while under pressure, a safer environment, may be a better life skill for you.

Second, no piece of gear will make you place your finger into the trigger guard, that is a decision, conscious or other wise, your brain made, no one else. No one jumps from an auto to a 5 speed mid racing season, they wait until off time and get in a lot of practice, first. If your putting your finger into the trigger housing before the weapon clears your body, no matter the holster, your going to be a stat for the Brady bunch.

Third, I can point to many folks that have/had all the paper work you can tote at one time, that said they were the best thing for the gig. However when it came to use the gear for it's intended purpose, they came in second, and because others believe they were all that, they went into bags or on a gurney as well.

This debate is about products vs training, but it could go another way if your so inclined.



</div></div> <span style="font-weight: bold">This debate is about products vs training, but it could go another way if your so inclined.

</span>

Which way would that be?? Please enlighten us as to the direction you may be inclined to take it, just so there would be no doubt.
Cause to me it sounds like a threat. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You seem like a guy that if we met in person, we would hit it right off and get along famously and may even do some damn good for this country.
I'm just sitting here trying to understand why in sams hill you would get so fired up defending what is without a doubt a flawed design, substandard, cheap piece of crap. I said earlier that my only aim was to make those unaware, aware of potential safety and tactical issues with the Serpa. The fact that it presents possible safety hazards to users whether experienced or not is undebateable fact. This topic was not about product vs training as it was started, it was only about the specific product. It is not those that have extensive training and expertise that need to be made aware of these potential issues, it is the untrained and newcomers that we try to help. There are many, many of those types that read this forum.
Why can't you understand that? Why is that such a problem for you?
I'd love to have the chance to meet you and discuss other much more important topics. I'll buy. It's gonna take guys like us who can get really passionate to make any difference.

Prepare, Resist, Prevail.

 
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