Sidearms & Scatterguns Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

[Downzero]

Re: NEWS FLASH

I honestly can't make heads or tails of that shit this time. It must be some kind of Alabama English. I would like to know what "Self's", "Want-a-bee," and the phrase "even worst" mean, and who this "Your" character is, however.

 

[KM375]

Re: NEWS FLASH

is this thread still going on?

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

zero

Yet again you have proven nothing,...well except you can't make your position fly,...so diverting you go.
Via your own key strokes, you have proven my and everyone Else's point, yet you believe by staying the course you will prevail. Like us Hill-Billys always say, That dog ain't gon-a hunt, now or ever.

Up to this point in your life you have probably, beat your lips or stroked keys long enough that the other side just shook their head an gave up.

Caution, your own words are in print and saved, so don't try an game your way out of the hole you dug,...So knowing that, lets cross the L/D and really kick this pig,... I give you led,...

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

Perhaps I should take your class in logic. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how to prove something "true."

Since the vast quantities of accidents don't constitute evidence of anything except stupidity to you, I fail to see how my position is inferior. Perhaps you should insult everyone who ever has any sort of accident and tell them that they should have been more careful. After all, that seems like an effective way to prevent catastrophe...just beat it into their head after the fact that they should have taken more care.

Yeah, that's it.

 

[kraigWY]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how to prove something "true."</div></div>

Maybe I can do that;

<span style="font-weight: bold">Keep your finger out of the trigger guard, and you wont shoot your self in the ass, </span>regardless whether you're using a Serpa CQC or any other holster.

It's really a simple concept. I can't even spell but I figured that bit of logic out.

 

[bjdm151]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

I would venture to say the majority (not vast majority, just majority) of accidents and/or negligent incidents could probably be attributed to what you are referring to as stupidity. It could probably be broken down into many more categories but usually the end result is "that was stupid."

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps I should take your class in logic. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how to prove something "true."

Since the vast quantities of accidents don't constitute evidence of anything except stupidity to you, I fail to see how my position is inferior. Perhaps you should insult everyone who ever has any sort of accident and tell them that they should have been more careful. After all, that seems like an effective way to prevent catastrophe...just beat it into their head after the fact that they should have taken more care.

Yeah, that's it. </div></div>

How did the holster pull the trigger while the muzzle was pointing at the persons body? Seems to me the person wearing the holster broke two of the most basic safety rules. Then again you believe the holster is supposed to be smarter than the user, is that correct? Also you believe it's just a holster, so no training is required?

Just so I get this right, a person is drawing from a Serpa retention holster. They fail to operate the retention device, so the retention device fights back, requiring the shooters fingers to curl from pulling so hard. Now the shooter places their finger on the trigger just as the weapon clears the holster, while the muzzle is pointing at self, and fire the weapon. They now have a SI-GSW and your issue is with the holster, is that about correct?
As I recall in the Chris C. video you eluded to, as proof of a Serpa holster issue, he made comment to the fact the holster was new to him, and the SI-GSW was his fault. Now you as a Lawyer want-a-bee believe there's a product issue?
By your own admission, no one is responsible for their own actions, it's a product issue, an no training is required.
Is it a automotive product issue when stupid speeds and crash's? How about a home that burns down an kills children or anyone for that matter, from a over heated pan on the stove. How about a knife that cuts you, or a screwdriver that, pokes you.

Problem is and always will be, your kind won't except blame for anything, and believe people should be paid for being stupid. You an your kind are the problem with this country, you think the world owes you something for being born.

You can twist words all you want, but there is a difference between an accident and being stupid.

In an "Accident" you have no control over the events, the only person in control of the weapon that caused a SI-GSW was stupid for ignoring the basic rules of safety.

Can,

 

[RETE8]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

....common sense is an uncommon virtue and some people are just bored over .0030 stupid with a shot of NOS and no parachute.....

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bjdm151</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would venture to say the majority (not vast majority, just majority) of accidents and/or negligent incidents could probably be attributed to what you are referring to as stupidity. It could probably be broken down into many more categories but usually the end result is "that was stupid." </div></div>

Yep, and I am living proof of that context, as I have had many a run in with screwdrivers, hammers, an knifes. However prior to me picking them up, they were sleeping I guess, an got pissed because I woke them up, so they attacked me.

The liberals of the world want to spin everything, so they call a SI-GSW an accident. Then try an divert true blame towards a object, which is just a ploy tactic to contaminate/confuse brain cells, of those who can't or won't think for their self's.

This country is not in free fall yet from this type, but the abyss can be seen from where we are standing.
The three words that liberals hate most are, <span style="font-weight: bold">Duty-Honor-Country</span>, there are those that speak them, an those who live them. Chris C. also lives them.
This whole waste of bandwidth is because some think the first word "Duty" should be replaced with "Spin" they want the second Word changed to "Deceit", an the last word, Country, to become "World".

A lot of good people had to cash in their life checks, for the freedoms we have still, based on the belief of those three words, <span style="font-weight: bold">Duty-Honor-Country</span>. It is the Duty of everyone to point out stupid. Stupid is running wild, an killing this country.

The spin doctors have had the floor far to long, and like my old target detection instructor always said, First you have to locate them, no matter what rags they wear, or group they <span style="font-weight: bold">Appear</span> to stand with. The fat lady has not sung, nor will she about this subject, as long as I have breath. If I should fall, I'll bet another will pick up the banner an go forth,...<span style="font-weight: bold">Duty-Honor-Country</span>.


When you say the words <span style="font-weight: bold">Duty-Honor-Country</span>, pause 15 seconds between them an let them sink in as to true meaning,...

zero,
Gave you led, an you pissed it away,...Your about to see how deep the hole you started, can become.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

Gunfighter,

You have spent a lot of time wasting bandwidth yourself explaining why you have no confidence in your fellow countryman who will one day sit on the juries that decide these things.

Modern liberals didn't invent the jury trial, nor did they write the entitlements to them (in criminal and civil cases, separately) into our bill of rights. Who did? Who wrote the bill of rights?

And due to the fact that you have no confidence in your fellow man, you want to play judge and jury. You think that your views on "stupidity" or whatever other word you use to describe this incident ("SI-GSW") are a substitute for having a jury of your peers examine the evidence and determine the cause and contributing factors, and proportion of those factors.

You might be called to sit on one of those juries one day, too. I hope you'll listen to the evidence and the judge's instructions, but if you won't, the judge will know how to make sure you take that <span style="font-style: italic">duty</span> seriously.

Until you realize that not everyone who makes a mistake is "stupid," and that other factors can contribute to the errors that cause these sorts of incidents, you will be completely out of touch with how our society handles these incidents.

It seems like the word that is lacking in your vocabulary is "responsibility." You want us to believe that only one party can be responsible for one of these incidents, but that is a gross oversimplification and just about everyone here recognizes that.

I don't know why this thread is so entertaining; it's like a train wreck.

 

[bjdm151]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems like the word that is lacking in your vocabulary is "responsibility." You want us to believe that only one party can be responsible for one of these incidents, but that is a gross oversimplification and just about everyone here recognizes that.

I don't know why this thread is so entertaining; it's like a train wreck. </div></div>

Who else should be held responsible for this man’s actions? We know you think the holster is unsafe but where does this line of thought end. The bullet must also be dangerous, look what it did to his leg. The gun is obviously dangerous as can be seen by the sheer number of lives ended by firearms since their inception. On the other thread it was noted that he had taken a formal pistol class. Must have been bad training. Let’s sue them all, right?

What about forums like this? What about YouTube itself? It is sites like these that enabled him to shoot himself by encouraging him to perform a "draw and fire from defensive retention".

It must also be his communities fault. It takes a village to raise an <span style="text-decoration: line-through">idiot</span> child.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? If I'm out shooting and someone hands me a loaded gun it’s my responsibility to check the condition of that weapon before I accept it. And I really don't care what a jury would say about it. I am going to take responsibility because if I blindly accept a loaded gun, point it at my leg, and pull the trigger it’s going to hurt at the very least. I should probably take responsibility for my own well being shouldn't I.

What does this whole argument boil down to? For me it’s self preservation. I am going to take responsibility for my own actions and well being. Those that refuse to follow suit can go ahead and remove themselves from the gene by whatever means they choose to blame someone else for.

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

zero

You have just proven you, lack reading comprehension, an stupid is as stupid does.

You an only you, are the cause of this train wreak. Go back and try comprehending the thread and it's direction from the start. You are the one that said you would like to sue Black-Hawk over the SI-GSW's they supposedly caused. Then when your liberal views would not pass muster, you got all huffy an retreated into the English issue, world of fairy tales, an out right Bullshit. Your the one that wanted the facts, when you got them, you tried to twist them every way you could, that dog did not hunt so, you tried branching out, which you fucked up as well. Your problem is you run head long into the truth and you don't like it.

When I get near a Jury, that's rich, been on them, in front of them, on both side of the tables.

The issue is your kind, want to go threw life beating your lips about how you know better than anyone else, it's a product issue, never could be a user issue, and you want to be paid for that.

I'm the type that lives in the reality world, and when that voice speaks up, your kind resort to every liberal trick you can think of to silence that voice,...News Flash ain't going to happen.
So again, how does the Serpa (topic remember)require the shooter to do a SI-SGW, when it's operated correctly? Or is it just a holster, and there's nothing to learn?

Can, on your side of the road again,...

 

[bjdm151]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue is your kind, want to go threw life beating your lips about how you know better than anyone else, it's a product issue, never could be a user issue, and you want to be paid for that.</div></div>

Your so retarded. You threw in the wrong through. Why would anyone ever be persueded to listen to you when my grammer is superior?

 

[Saito]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bjdm151</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issue is your kind, want to go threw life beating your lips about how you know better than anyone else, it's a product issue, never could be a user issue, and you want to be paid for that.</div></div>

Your so retarded. You threw in the wrong through. Why would anyone ever be persueded to listen to you when my grammer is superior?

</div></div>

You've got the wrong your...should be you're, as in you are and you also spelled grammar wrong. Been fun watching this train wreck though..

If you shoot yourself, you're a retard and you can't blame any piece of equipment you own.

I shot an IPSC match this last weekend and out of 10 shooters, 2 had Serpas. No one was injured and I shot L10 along with a few steel matches for almost a year with a Serpa incident free. I did switch to a bladetech afterwards but I own 4 Serpas for different pistols and have no reason not to use them; internet threads withstanding.

 

[Guest]

Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

Ya, but zero's been getting mine, yours, an everyone Else's message. Standard Liberal pleader tactic, that won't work on folks that can think for their self's. Most folks that re-butt their views are most always beaten into submission, until they(liberal pleaders) are beaten back with the facts. Then they try any/everything to discredit their re-butt'er in the eyes of those that are easily swayed. That's why it's a bitch to pick a Jury with folks who think for their self's. There's a difference between the letter of the Law an the Spirit of the law. They can't win on the spirit, so they twist words to try an goal via the letter,....

Remember this,..."It all depends on what your definition of, Is,...Is". Like WTF, from a setting pres,... please. You got caught, own the fuck up.

When it start/s/ed at the top, the pleaders thought/think Hell, We are golden let's run this show like we want". They hate it when a piss ant like me, stops them from passing "Go" an pocketing the 200 bucks.
This is far from over,... an trying to derail this train ain't going to happen while I'm riding.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
How did the holster pull the trigger while the muzzle was pointing at the persons body? Seems to me the person wearing the holster broke two of the most basic safety rules. </div></div>

All the rhetoric in the world won't change the above.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

Drop the word liberal a few more times, it might make it true if you do.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

I've been practicing with two Serpas (Gock 17 and Glock 21) for and while now, well over 1000 draws.

I still cannot make the holster put my finger in the triggerguard.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been practicing with two Serpas (Gock 17 and Glock 21) for and while now, well over 1000 draws.

I still cannot make the holster put my finger in the triggerguard. </div></div>

Congrats, you're more careful than most.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

On a side note,

I had used a Bianchi B10 belt for nearly 15 years and found it a good stiff belt. Over time it shrank (???....grin).

To accomodate my 'maturity', I recently picked up a Wilderness Tactical 5-stitch 1 3/4" belt in a size that fits.

Very well made and stiff belt. A serious gun belt. I would say it's actually a bit stiffer than the B10. Basically it looks like two layers of heavy nylon web, sewn together in five lines of stitching. The buckle is very strong, and is the slide-lock type with full adjustability, not a few holes to pick from.

The new belt makes a very solid foundation for the Serpa, or any other holster for that matter.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been practicing with two Serpas (Gock 17 and Glock 21) for and while now, well over 1000 draws.

I still cannot make the holster put my finger in the triggerguard. </div></div>

Congrats, you're more careful than most. </div></div>



Well, I don't have any hard statistical data, but I think it's a safe bet that over 99.9% of the Serpa users out there have the same results that I do.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been practicing with two Serpas (Gock 17 and Glock 21) for and while now, well over 1000 draws.

I still cannot make the holster put my finger in the triggerguard. </div></div>

Congrats, you're more careful than most. </div></div>



Well, I don't have any hard statistical data, but I think it's a safe bet that over 99.9% of the Serpa users out there have the same results that I do. </div></div>

And as was covered in this thread already, Master Gunny, a 1 in 1000 chance of causing severe injury to yourself with a dangerous weapon does not make something safe. If you died every time you drove your car 1000 miles, the company that made it would be sued out of business.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

If the Serpa was as unsafe as you think it is, Blackhawk would have been sued over it, and it would be off the market.

Do you have any hard statistical data on SI-GSWs where the Serpa was in use? Or is 1 in 1000 just a guess?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been practicing with two Serpas (Gock 17 and Glock 21) for and while now, well over 1000 draws.

I still cannot make the holster put my finger in the triggerguard. </div></div>

Congrats, <span style="font-weight: bold">you're more careful than most</span>. </div></div>



You imply that over 50% of people using a Serpa cannot draw without putting their finger on the trigger.

Do you really believe that?

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been practicing with two Serpas (Gock 17 and Glock 21) for and while now, well over 1000 draws.

I still cannot make the holster put my finger in the triggerguard. </div></div>

Congrats, <span style="font-weight: bold">you're more careful than most</span>. </div></div>



You imply that over 50% of people using a Serpa cannot draw without putting their finger on the trigger.

Do you really believe that? </div></div>

I have never said anything of the kind. Without going into a long discussion of independent events, I will just point out that "you're more careful than most" does not mean the same thing as "50% of people are dangerous idiots."

 

[fasteddie565]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

Dear God, You guys are still at it. You have debated this so long that you driven Downzero to serve as a mediator? WOW!

Gunfighter and AMS, fellas, that is the ugliest holster I have ever seen. I HAVE GOT TO HAVE ONE!

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Drop the word liberal a few more times, it might make it true if you do.</div></div>
Don't have to, your very first post in this thread proved what you are, to all.

Just to refresh your memory, here it is, liberal pleader, wantabee.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Count me as in the camp that finds these holsters fundamentally unsafe. If I were a lawyer, I'd be suing them. Besides being junk, the retention feature suffers from what I firmly believe is a design flaw.</div></div>Then later down the thread, you went on to say to the effect, "have your insurance company sue him". Referring to the 23yo that hit me and turned my truck over, (I'll go back and get it if you want) Flaming, liberal wantabee, I'd say!

You've tried 1/2 of the liberal tricks to this point, but at every Moon Dust diversion you've tried, the fact's an truth have been there waiting, just like they will be for the other 1/2. That tired old Liberal, smoke an mirrors, or warm rain tactic, just ain't working out for you is it. If I were you, I'd step up an try the O's game and see how that plays out. Here again be careful what you wish for, or tactics you try.

You don't understand the words Duty-Honor-Country, do you? You are deep into Spin-Deceit-World and now that you've been outed, you can't stand it.

So, now that we are done with the same old liberal tactic of, diverting yet again,... Explain how breaking the primary safety rules, and failing to operate the Serpa holster properly, caused the SI-GSW?

I picked up a brand new can,... and by now you know where it's at on the road.

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fast eddie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunfighter and AMS, fellas, that is the ugliest holster I have ever seen. I HAVE GOT TO HAVE ONE! </div></div>

Picked up a G-24 last week and will be picking up another G-22 Serpa donor today. The clash between "Tacticool" vs stuff actuality used is rather stark, ain't it.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then later down the thread, you went on to say to the effect, "have your insurance company sue him". Referring to the 23yo that hit me and turned my truck over, (I'll go back and get it if you want) Flaming, liberal wantabee, I'd say!</div></div>

Actually, that's not what I said at all. What I said is that if someone causes you injury, you're entitled to compensation for that injury. Insurance companies usually don't sue other insurance companies, because if they did, it'd take years to resolve anything and the cost of litigation would be way higher than just paying the claim. Maybe if there is/was a bunch of money at stake, they would, but common sense and good business decisionmaking would indicate that nobody would have to sue anybody for you to get compensated.

If believing in property rights and expecting compensation from someone else's negligence makes me a liberal, so be it. As I stated before, juries are not a new invention and they've been part of our constitution since the bill of rights was ratified.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You've tried 1/2 of the liberal tricks to this point, but at every Moon Dust diversion you've tried, the fact's an truth have been there waiting, just like they will be for the other 1/2. That tired old Liberal, smoke an mirrors, or warm rain tactic, just ain't working out for you is it. If I were you, I'd step up an try the O's game and see how that plays out. Here again be careful what you wish for, or tactics you try.</div></div>

I honestly can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to say here. I'm still trying to figure out what "Fact's" are or who owns them. Either way, I can't figure out what the point of this paragraph is at all. Like I said before, Hooked on Phonics works wonders.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You don't understand the words Duty-Honor-Country, do you? You are deep into Spin-Deceit-World and now that you've been outed, you can't stand it.</div></div>

Seems that you forgot "liberty."

I searched the entire US Constitution for these three tremendous values you keep talking about: duty, honor, and country.

The word "duty" only appears in a context as to refer to the type of tax.

The word "honor" exists only in the impeachment procedure section.

The word "country" is completely absent.

But to find the word "liberty," you need not even read past the Preamble. The word "property" also appears repeatedly.

I guess I'm the one flying fast and loose with the text when you're the one spouting a bunch of your personal values as if they have some meaning beyond that. News flash: those three words won't get you much at the courthouse when someone else's liberty or property is on the line.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So, now that we are done with the same old liberal tactic of, diverting yet again,... Explain how breaking the primary safety rules, and failing to operate the Serpa holster properly, caused the SI-GSW?</div></div>

I've explained repeatedly that it is my opinion that the holster is unreasonably dangerous because there are reasonable alternative designs that don't encourage the user to push his finger towards the trigger when drawing. The holsters serve the same function, cost basically the same, still retain the gun, and do not encourage the user to 'break the primary safety rules.'

I haven't ever said that the user doesn't bear some responsibility for the "SI-GSW." I have said, repeatedly, that this piece of equipment is a contributing factor.

Products that are unreasonably dangerous shouldn't be on the market.

The alternative is living in a place like Massachusetts where guns without the regulation-required safety features can't be owned at all. Do you think that's a good solution? I don't.

Enough people have shot themselves with that POS holster already. My position is well established in the facts.

 

[bjdm151]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

The following are definitions taken from the Legal dictionary on “Law.com”.

“product liability”

“n. the responsibility of manufacturers, distributors and sellers of products to the public, to deliver products free of defects which harm an individual or numerous persons and to make good on that responsibility if their products are defective. These can include faulty auto brakes, contaminated baby food, exploding bottles of beer, flammable children's pajamas or lack of label warnings. Examples: Beauty Queen Hair Products makes a hair-permanent kit in which the formula will cause loss of hair to women with sensitive scalps, and Molly Makeup has her hair done at the Bon Ton Beauty Shop and suffers scalp burns and loss of hair. Molly has a claim for damages against Beauty Queen, the manufacturer. Big Boy Trucks makes a truck with a faulty steering gear, bought by Tom Holdtight. The gear fails and Holdtight runs off the road and breaks his back. Holdtight can sue Big Boy for the damages. The key element in product liability law is that a person who suffers harm need prove only the failure of the product to make the seller, distributor and/or manufacturer reliable for damages”

In the video from Tex Guber How did the product fail?

If debris prevents the holster from releasing the firearm how has the holster failed? That’s like saying that if my coffee mug (debris) falls behind my brake pedal and I can’t stop the brake pedal has failed.


See also "assumption of risk"

"n. 1) taking a chance in a potentially dangerous situation."

and "foreseeable risk"

"n. a danger which a reasonable person should anticipate as the result from his/her actions."

 

[kraigWY]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">See also "assumption of risk"

"n. a danger which a reasonable person should anticipate as the result from his/her actions."</div></div>

As in sticking your finger in the trigger guard before you're ready to shoot.

There is no way the Blackhawk Serpa CQC forces your finger into the trigger guard.

There is NO ONE, including Zero, that can show me one incident where an accidental shooting caused harm to life or property,

IF

The Four Basic Rules of Fire Arm Safety had been followed.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

Actually I'd take it a step further. There's no way to get injured without violating two of the four rules at the same time. It doesn't follow that the holster isn't a contributing factor to at least one of those when the lock requires you to push towards the trigger guard to get it to release.

 

[bjdm151]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have read some comments that the Serpa design is considered by some to be unsafe, in that the release puts your finger on the trigger as the pistol clears the holster. I do not find that to be true. The holster release actually positions your trigger finger straight, and along the frame as the pistol clears the holster.

There is a molded groove to let your trigger finger find ther correct position for release and draw.

The release grip is essentially the proper safe grip with trigger finger straight along the frame.

The draw. note trigger finger location in along the frame, not in the trigger guard.

</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually I'd take it a step further. There's no way to get injured without violating two of the four rules at the same time. It doesn't follow that the holster isn't a contributing factor to at least one of those when the lock requires you to push towards the trigger guard to get it to release. </div></div>

Really? Are you still on that shit? Where is his freaking finger in those pictures?

Have you ever used one of these holsters? I would venture to say no. In all honesty The fact that the groove aligns your finger to the frame above the trigger might make it safer.

 

[kraigWY]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It doesn't follow that the holster isn't a contributing factor to at least one of those when <span style="font-weight: bold">the lock requires you to push towards the trigger guard to get it to release</span></div></div>

The hell it does, you slide your finger over the button as you draw the pistol and it releases, you don't crook your finger to poke the button. When you drag your {b]straight[/b] finger on the button, the button releases, and as the gun comes out, your finger falls along the slide.

From you post, I doubt you've ever seen a Serpa CQC holster, let alone use one.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

If you push your finger towards the trigger, you'll never get the lock to release.

The holster forces you NOT to put your finger where the trigger is, in order to unlock it.

What the user may do with his finger after the holster has unlocked is 100% operator induced.

The holster itself will index your trigger finger along the frame, where it belongs.

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My position is well established in the facts. </div></div>

The only position your have locked up in this thread is the fact, your a Liberal pleader wantabee.

You have no facts to back up your claims, you have side stepped all questions pertaining to how said holster, requires the shooter to inflect a SI-GSW.

You have done a perfect job of outing yourself, with the least bit of bait used in any thread here on the Hide, ever. Well retract that, you might be in a tie with Water Boy.

Per your own admission, One can not shoot ones self, while adhering to the basic safety rules of weapons. You believe everything built should be stupid proof. For if not you believe the mfg of same should be sued into submission. You also believe if you stay the course we will go away. Trying to twist words will allow you to prevail, via default.
Here again you are wrong, and by admission from some of the total folks following this thread, they are all wondering how much shit you have left in your ass, as they have never seen that much in print before.

I guess it must suck to be on the receiving end of so many folks, re-butting your views, but maybe, just maybe, there's a few here that have been down more roads than you, and might know a thing or three about which they speak. The problem is your the type that puts stock in what you perceive to be truth, and just hate to be proven wrong. Then again Liberal's an liberal pleading wantabees, all have that complex.

Bet you had a good run with the sheep of the world on other sites, but we not be sheep, nor we be stupid, nor will we sit by and let liberal pleading wantabees, run their lips unchecked.

Again, how does the Serpa holster produce a SI-GSW without the shooter improperly operating same, an breaking the most basic weapon safety rules?

Take all the time you need, I and the other 150-200 folks following this thread, await your liberal dancing response, to this same question over an over,... again.

Can awaiting your kick,...

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you push your finger towards the trigger, you'll never get the lock to release.

The holster forces you NOT to put your finger where the trigger is, in order to unlock it.

What the user may do with his finger after the holster has unlocked is 100% operator induced.

The holster itself will index your trigger finger along the frame, where it belongs.</div></div>

I agree.

Now, if I was to buy one...and my wife could/would stand to take the time to read this whole thread. And, she saw that this could shoot me in the ass if I wasn't doing it right. She would probably tell me, "I'm just another accident/asshole waiting to happen!"

 

[Don-n-Texas]

Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)

I'm beating a dead horse here I know.

Now it's cooled down on this topic.

I'm not in LE or the Military. I don't gun fight for a living.

Why would anyone practice a fast draw with a loaded weapon. Snap caps are available.

Muscle memory and reflex is what your trying to developed. It seems to me that after the first shot it just more shooting.

You would just have to practice the 1st shot, snap caps would do the same thing and would be safer.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My position is well established in the facts. </div></div>

The only position your have locked up in this thread is the fact, your a Liberal pleader wantabee.

You have no facts to back up your claims, you have side stepped all questions pertaining to how said holster, requires the shooter to inflect a SI-GSW.
</div></div>

Ahh, <span style="font-style: italic">ad hominem</span> and denying reality. Nothing quite like trying to argue with that.

I'm done here, because as I've stated, it's not up to me or you. It will be up to a jury one day. And I'd put money on there being a lawsuit at some point.

In fact, I suspect that such a suit would be quietly settled.

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

What, your still upset and trying to re-gain traction, yet again?

Not happening today or any other, as I wear a hat that has a big "X" to block "O" type thinking, in the big game.

Again how does the Serpa cause a SI-GSW without the user improperly operating same, or breaking the very basic weapon safety rules.
You have no answer do you? Must be a bitch trying to keep up while standing on wet ice.
Fresh can, for your latest, liberal-pleading-wantabee, views.

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm done here, </div></div>
You were done before you started, but it's took this long for you to realize that fact.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm done here, </div></div>
You were done before you started, but it's took this long for you to realize that fact. </div></div>

If you think that is a "fact," it demonstrates exactly why you haven't the equipment to meaningfully respond to this debate at all.

Facts are observable phenomena not subject to interpretation. Your opinion is not a representation of objective reality.

Every gunshot wound is preventable, and every incident that results in injury could be solved by following the four firearms safety rules. With that said, if the sear breaks in a handgun and it empties itself, or the firing pin sticks forward and it slam fires until it's empty, most would regard those as <span style="text-decoration: underline">contributing </span>factors if it resulted in injury to a person or property.

It is your position that every single "SI-GSW" is a result of negligence that is completely attributable to the person in control of the firearm. That is obviously an extreme position. If my factory stock firearm is cocked and locked and holstered and empties itself into my leg because the safety, sear, and half cock notch all failed to do their job, my contribution to that incident is minimal at the very least, and most would regard my expectation that those parts work as they should as a reasonable one.

My hope for you, sir, is that you're never on the receiving end of an incident that perhaps has more than one contributing cause. If you are, I suspect your position will change to look remarkably more like mine. Contrary to your position, the world is not black and white, there can be more than one causal factor in any event, and our society places blame based on the proportion of the contributing factors.

It is simplistic and ignorant to suggest that there can only be a single contributing factor to any incident. For example, if you were never born, you wouldn't be an ignorant moron, but I'm not blaming your mother for birthing you. Perhaps I should. If I lived in your little dream world, life would be simple enough to blame your mother for every idiotic thing you ever say. Fortunately most of us have a depth of thought deeper than that. You've made it apparent that you don't, and I'm sure whoever reads this will conclude whatever they need to conclude from that.

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

Answer the question you keep dodging, one of so much brain.
Twisting words is but a old liberal tactic. It no work-y except on sheep, FYI,...we not be sheep.

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

Again Very slowly,

How- does- the- Serpa- cause- a- SI-GSW- without- the- user improperly- operating- same-, or- breaking- the- very- basic- safety- rules- of- weapon- handling?

I can do big block print also if you need it.

You can't/won't answer the question w/o admitting defeat. You jumped up way back when, an bit off more than you can chew, and being the liberal pleading wantabee you are, it's chapping your ass to be held to the fire, ain't it. Get used to it, it's a brave new world.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
How- does- the- Serpa- cause- a- SI-GSW- without- the- user improperly- operating- same-, or- breaking- the- very- basic- safety- rules- of- weapon- handling?
</div></div>

It doesn't, when your question is carefully crafted (as it is) to support your position. The holster design encourages unsafe gun handling by placing the lock near the trigger rather than on the other side of the holster as is common with reasonable alternative designs.

It is impossible for any "SI-GSW" to not have the operator as a <span style="font-style: italic">contributing </span>factor. It does not follow that the operator is the only link in the chain of causation.

The fact that skilled people, including a very experienced law enforcement officer who was on Top Shot, have managed to injure themselves (by failure to take care, violating 2 of the 4 basic firearms safety rules, or however you want to characterize it) by using this holster indicates to me that this is more than a theoretical problem.

By your reasoning, even if the gun failed and caused a "SI-GSW" to the shooter, the shooter would bear sole responsibility. I do not agree with that position and I doubt that most reasonable people would, either. It is difficult, if not impossible, to wear a holstered sidearm without it being pointed at your leg or other lower extremities at some point.

People who have carried firearms every day for decades have injured themselves while using this holster. You are free to conclude that they're all ignorant morons if you like, but I'm inclined to think that if skilled people who otherwise demonstrate exceptionally safe firearms handling skills manage to injure themselves with this holster, then something else has to be contributing to the incidents.

I know of no other holster design that is associated with so many similar incidents. If the holster isn't a contributing factor, that's certainly a whole lot of coincidences that you have not made any attempt whatsoever to explain.

To make it short and sweet for you:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
How- does- the- Serpa- cause- a- SI-GSW- without- the- user improperly- operating- same-, or- breaking- the- very- basic- safety- rules- of- weapon- handling?
</div></div>

It doesn't. And if the discussion were that simple, it would have been over pages ago. For the rationale for why this simplistic answer does not explain this entire issue, including why your reasoning leads to absurd results, read above.

 

[Guest]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

Dance some more. It is that simple, and your liberal views can't/did not, game the truth.
It's not the question that's at issue, it's you having to admit the Serpa Holster was not the issue,... Your cut from the same cloth as those that cling to the Hope an Change line.
Your damn right, hope an change is on the way, you just received a taste of it.
You were beat down with the facts and are still trying to twist words, while your being pushed out the/of court room door.

Life sucks for you liberals, when the truth prevails,...

Accident---> a chain of/or event/s the involved have no control over.
Stupid---> the involved try to blame any an everything, except the root cause.
Fact, liberals,...when it's all said an done---> aren't.
Progressives--> They want to progress thru life on OPM.




...




OPM---> Other Peoples Money

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....The holster design encourages unsafe gun handling by placing the lock near the trigger. </div></div>

The holster encourages safe gun handling by placing the lock release so that it indexes the trigger finger precisely along the frame of the pistol as the pistol clears the holster.

The operator has to move his finger off the release position, about 1" downward, and curl it, to get on the trigger. The holster doesn't encourage any of that. That's pure operator.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The operator has to move his finger off the release position, about 1" downward, and curl it, to get on the trigger. The holster doesn't encourage any of that. That's pure operator. </div></div>

And apparently an inch from disaster is too close.

The reason I struggle with your position (which is far more reasonable than the other poster's) is that many people--experienced gun handlers--have injured themselves using this holster. I know of no other holster design associated with so many incidents. Something has to be different about the Serpa compared to its competition that have resulted in 1. injuries and 2. bannage of this holster, by name, from several prominent instructors' courses. Is it really just a coincidence that all these incidents are associated with this holster? I have a hard time convincing myself that it's just a bunch of unrelated coincidences. Something has to explain the connection between this holster's use and the level of operator error that has resulted while using it.

I agree that the final steps (curling finger, pulling trigger, discharging into leg) are almost completely based on the operator. The problem is before that in the draw stroke.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

In my mind it just comes down to starting slow, doing many, many repetitions, until a smooth draw becomes muscle memory.

Once muscle memory is developed, speed will come. Smooth is fast, as they say.

Trying to instill muscle memory in a one or two day training evolution is just not going to happen.

Adding a timer, a green shooter, and unfamiliar gear is a certain recipe for some spastic clawing at holsters. It's bad juju, with any handgun and holster.

If I were running a 1-2 day introductory handgun course, I wouldn't even introduce a timer into the equation. I'd focus on technique only.

Knowing WHEN to bristle and show your teeth is far more important than how fast one can clear leather/kydex. My watchdog has it figured out. Situational awareness. Don't be asleep in class.

 

[Downzero]

Re:Being stupid vs fact's

I don't disagree at all. But when a single piece of equipment has contributed to so many injuries, it's more than just operator error at work.