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Sidearms & Scatterguns Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
- Thread starter MontanaMarine
- Start date
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He was also a full-time firearms instructor for 8 years before going on the show.</div></div>
SO,
He still screwed up. I don't care if he was a firearms instructor for 100 years, if he put his finger in the trigger before he had the gun lined up on the target he FUCKED UP.
</div></div>
So your viewpoint requires perfect people and allows for less-than-reasonably safe equipment, while mine requires reasonably safe equipment and reasonably safe people.
I wonder which one is more consistent with human nature?
I'm still wondering how I have given so much to the other side (acknowledged that some facts run counter to my ideas without giving up the points that the Serpa promotes unsafe gun handling and suffers from a design flaw), yet the other side continues to insist that the Serpa is safe, despite quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.
I'm lead to believe that some people will believe whatever they want to believe, no matter what the evidence.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He was also a full-time firearms instructor for 8 years before going on the show.</div></div>
SO,
He still screwed up. I don't care if he was a firearms instructor for 100 years, if he put his finger in the trigger before he had the gun lined up on the target he FUCKED UP.
</div></div>
So your viewpoint requires perfect people and allows for less-than-reasonably safe equipment, while mine requires reasonably safe equipment and reasonably safe people.
I wonder which one is more consistent with human nature?
I'm still wondering how I have given so much to the other side (acknowledged that some facts run counter to my ideas without giving up the points that the Serpa promotes unsafe gun handling and suffers from a design flaw), yet the other side continues to insist that the Serpa is safe, despite quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.
I'm lead to believe that some people will believe whatever they want to believe, no matter what the evidence.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yet the other side continues to insist that the Serpa is safe, despite quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.</div></div>
It's a long road, I've fresh boots so lets keep kicking this can.
Via your own "Evidence" Chris C had a SI-GSW, while drawing from a Serpa. Chris being the man he is "Admited" to the public,(you do understand that word correct) the holster was a very new piece to him. AKA, not fully understood as to operation. Then, you say, trainers have watched fingers curl trying to draw a weapon that has not been released from it's locking device while the operator was under stress. Every one in or out of the shooting world knows for a fact, when folks are under stress they will always,... always,... revert to their lowest training level.
Now I have seen with my own eyes what happens when gear is changed in mid stream. Those that were in SE Asia when M14's were replaced with the M16, know this as well because AAR are mostly 95% correct. Some fresh FNG's and some about to hit ramps to the big PX, were in fact found dead after fire fights with M16's fully battle ready, where the safety was never off'ed. They were seen during the fight trying to push off the M14 style safety an one even lowered his weapon to look at it sideways, apparently trying to understand why it would not fire. Why you ask, because under stress they reverted to M14 thinking. Not everyone that picks up a piece of gear for the first time, belongs behind it under stress, that is been proven time an time again. The carnage caused by a 4 duce team not fusing a round by a FNG that took out 5 guys. Training, Training, training would have negated both of those, but War waits for no man, neither does bean counters or folks trying to make a living, off others hard work.
Study the history behind "ISO", even civies understand the need for training on simple crap, let alone a guy that kit's up after a Rambo movie, signs up for training, then shoots his self, an wants to blame the gear for his failure,...remember Chris's admission. Wonder how the other's would do under oath. Then again Chris is a "Man",... none of the others have stepped forward, but bring that law suite in Alabama if your so inclined. Many training failures are yet to be exposed, Military world, an Civie. Then again we need more "Danger an Caution" lable's to read.
I prefer the one that says when the engine is running do not atemp to change the belt's, water pump, DC alt, crank seal, fan clutch ect.
How did Forest say that,...Stupid is as stupid does,....In this case should have been don't believe everything you think you see or hear about product's and there ability to function correctly, when not operated properly.
Why does training even happen, within the civie world, let along the Military?
Should we stamp in braille upon the foreheads of every child born, "Things you can't see, smell, taste, feel, or understand may kill you. Or should we not allow jurys to be picked, by other than ones peers. A law mans peers are other law men, not soccer moms, or CEO's who have rode the golden spoon threw life.
This is where you kick the can,...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yet the other side continues to insist that the Serpa is safe, despite quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.</div></div>
It's a long road, I've fresh boots so lets keep kicking this can.
Via your own "Evidence" Chris C had a SI-GSW, while drawing from a Serpa. Chris being the man he is "Admited" to the public,(you do understand that word correct) the holster was a very new piece to him. AKA, not fully understood as to operation. Then, you say, trainers have watched fingers curl trying to draw a weapon that has not been released from it's locking device while the operator was under stress. Every one in or out of the shooting world knows for a fact, when folks are under stress they will always,... always,... revert to their lowest training level.
Now I have seen with my own eyes what happens when gear is changed in mid stream. Those that were in SE Asia when M14's were replaced with the M16, know this as well because AAR are mostly 95% correct. Some fresh FNG's and some about to hit ramps to the big PX, were in fact found dead after fire fights with M16's fully battle ready, where the safety was never off'ed. They were seen during the fight trying to push off the M14 style safety an one even lowered his weapon to look at it sideways, apparently trying to understand why it would not fire. Why you ask, because under stress they reverted to M14 thinking. Not everyone that picks up a piece of gear for the first time, belongs behind it under stress, that is been proven time an time again. The carnage caused by a 4 duce team not fusing a round by a FNG that took out 5 guys. Training, Training, training would have negated both of those, but War waits for no man, neither does bean counters or folks trying to make a living, off others hard work.
Study the history behind "ISO", even civies understand the need for training on simple crap, let alone a guy that kit's up after a Rambo movie, signs up for training, then shoots his self, an wants to blame the gear for his failure,...remember Chris's admission. Wonder how the other's would do under oath. Then again Chris is a "Man",... none of the others have stepped forward, but bring that law suite in Alabama if your so inclined. Many training failures are yet to be exposed, Military world, an Civie. Then again we need more "Danger an Caution" lable's to read.
I prefer the one that says when the engine is running do not atemp to change the belt's, water pump, DC alt, crank seal, fan clutch ect.
How did Forest say that,...Stupid is as stupid does,....In this case should have been don't believe everything you think you see or hear about product's and there ability to function correctly, when not operated properly.
Why does training even happen, within the civie world, let along the Military?
Should we stamp in braille upon the foreheads of every child born, "Things you can't see, smell, taste, feel, or understand may kill you. Or should we not allow jurys to be picked, by other than ones peers. A law mans peers are other law men, not soccer moms, or CEO's who have rode the golden spoon threw life.
This is where you kick the can,...
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So your viewpoint requires perfect people and allows for less-than-reasonably safe equipment,</div></div>
No Sir.
My viewpoint is that there is no excuse for poor gun handling. There is no excuse for not following the Four Basic Rules of Gun Handling, regardless of the equipment used.
If you keep your trigger finger straight, until you are on the target, you cannot get to the trigger.
Equipment fails, that's going to happen. A good example it the flack about the Model 700 Remington a few months a go. Remember the news piece about someone shooting their son through a motorhome (kid standing on the other side). According to the report, the guy closed the bolt and the rifle went off.
One of the four basic rules is, keep your gun pointed in a safe direction. If that rifle was pointed toward the sky, or ground, it still may have discharged but it wouldn't have killed their son.
It is impossible for anyone to get hurt if the Four Safety Rules are followed.
As for the CQC holster. I have two, (and a third clone). I used these in competition. In our "Action Style" pistol matches I shoot more then one gun. I like the CQC because it allows me to slip on holster out of the belt, and slip the other in without delaying the match.
I just can't see the problem, I've played with the CQC a lot since this topic started trying to see how one could accidently put their finger on the trigger. I use every handgun with my trigger finger extended straight until I'm on target. With the CQC, the extended finger slides alone the release, disengaging the lock alowing the pistol to be pulled from the holster. The finger remains extended along the slide (or below the cylinder on a revolver). I have to make a consciense effort to crook the finger to get it into the trigger guard. To me its easier to get the finger on the trigger if the gun is extended toward the target.
But that's not my point, my point is to stress the four basic firearm safety rules. If followed there will be no problem whether is a CQC holster or a Remington Model 700.
Equipment fails, manual safetys fail, sears fail, SHIT HAPPENS, you never know when, or with what piece of equipment. You cannot control unknown failures, You can control the muzzle, you can control the trigger finger.
Three things on a range that make me "rabid" muzzle control, finger on the trigger, and not using a empty chamber indicator on a rifle when not in the act of firing.
In my 40 or so years as a firearms instructor I've only had one accident on my range, that was with a 4-H kid shooting air guns where the pellet bounced of the target backing and hitting him in the cheek. My fault, since I wont have any backing on the paper targets for air guns.
It doen't require "perfect people" to use guns safely, it just takes the ability to follow "four simple rules", if one isn't willing to follow those rules they should take up another sport.
You certainly wont be using any range I'm on.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So your viewpoint requires perfect people and allows for less-than-reasonably safe equipment,</div></div>
No Sir.
My viewpoint is that there is no excuse for poor gun handling. There is no excuse for not following the Four Basic Rules of Gun Handling, regardless of the equipment used.
If you keep your trigger finger straight, until you are on the target, you cannot get to the trigger.
Equipment fails, that's going to happen. A good example it the flack about the Model 700 Remington a few months a go. Remember the news piece about someone shooting their son through a motorhome (kid standing on the other side). According to the report, the guy closed the bolt and the rifle went off.
One of the four basic rules is, keep your gun pointed in a safe direction. If that rifle was pointed toward the sky, or ground, it still may have discharged but it wouldn't have killed their son.
It is impossible for anyone to get hurt if the Four Safety Rules are followed.
As for the CQC holster. I have two, (and a third clone). I used these in competition. In our "Action Style" pistol matches I shoot more then one gun. I like the CQC because it allows me to slip on holster out of the belt, and slip the other in without delaying the match.
I just can't see the problem, I've played with the CQC a lot since this topic started trying to see how one could accidently put their finger on the trigger. I use every handgun with my trigger finger extended straight until I'm on target. With the CQC, the extended finger slides alone the release, disengaging the lock alowing the pistol to be pulled from the holster. The finger remains extended along the slide (or below the cylinder on a revolver). I have to make a consciense effort to crook the finger to get it into the trigger guard. To me its easier to get the finger on the trigger if the gun is extended toward the target.
But that's not my point, my point is to stress the four basic firearm safety rules. If followed there will be no problem whether is a CQC holster or a Remington Model 700.
Equipment fails, manual safetys fail, sears fail, SHIT HAPPENS, you never know when, or with what piece of equipment. You cannot control unknown failures, You can control the muzzle, you can control the trigger finger.
Three things on a range that make me "rabid" muzzle control, finger on the trigger, and not using a empty chamber indicator on a rifle when not in the act of firing.
In my 40 or so years as a firearms instructor I've only had one accident on my range, that was with a 4-H kid shooting air guns where the pellet bounced of the target backing and hitting him in the cheek. My fault, since I wont have any backing on the paper targets for air guns.
It doen't require "perfect people" to use guns safely, it just takes the ability to follow "four simple rules", if one isn't willing to follow those rules they should take up another sport.
You certainly wont be using any range I'm on.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it....</div></div>
The only credible part of your argument. (the training part, not the POS part)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.....MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it....</div></div>
The only credible part of your argument. (the training part, not the POS part)
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a simple fact,
Trying to draw from a Serpa with your release finger where the trigger would be, will make it impossible to draw. You will be pressing in on the lock, instead of the release.
The release location actually forces your trigger finger to a safe position along the frame.
What the shooter does with his trigger finger after the release is entirely on him/her, just as it is with any holster.
</div></div>
Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock. That's the flaw we're talking about that you seem to be overlooking.
I'm just glad I'm not the only one on the other side of a heated debate this time, because I know my views will be vindicated when Blackhawk is sued and this holster pulled from the market.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a simple fact,
Trying to draw from a Serpa with your release finger where the trigger would be, will make it impossible to draw. You will be pressing in on the lock, instead of the release.
The release location actually forces your trigger finger to a safe position along the frame.
What the shooter does with his trigger finger after the release is entirely on him/her, just as it is with any holster.
</div></div>
Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock. That's the flaw we're talking about that you seem to be overlooking.
I'm just glad I'm not the only one on the other side of a heated debate this time, because I know my views will be vindicated when Blackhawk is sued and this holster pulled from the market.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jimd,
So its not the persons lack of training, its just the equipments fault? I love that mentality.</div></div>
Watch the clip, then tell me how he intentionally placed his finger on the trigger. Look at how fast it happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE
As for the "lack of training" thing...why is it that Gunsite, Vickers, Defoor, Suarez, Tactical Response, and numerous LE training academies and departments have BANNED these holsters?
If anyone understanding the importance of training...I would think it might be the guys who make a living training people, full time.
I'm done leading horses to water on this one. Apparently there are too many people who are married to their Serpa, and take anything negative said about the design, personally.
If you're not reasonable enough to objectively look at the design, do the research, and see the short-comings...you're not going to learn anything from something I post here, either.</div></div>
I watched him put his finger on the trigger, pull it, and shoot a hole in his leg. later in slow motion I saw it clearly how he shot himself in the leg.
I'm in wonderment of how you blast the holster, when the guy CLEARLY states several times in the video, "It's MY fault" about what he did?
As far as the release jamming and the plastic breaking, I've seen a bunch of plastic 'Kydex' holsters break. Cold weather is really hard on them. That's the nature of the manufacturing process.
I'm not big on Blackhawk gear at all. I personally will stick to my Galco and custom leather. But, I just don't see the argument here of the people trying to put down Blackhawk. When, in fact, other gear has the same issues.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jimd,
So its not the persons lack of training, its just the equipments fault? I love that mentality.</div></div>
Watch the clip, then tell me how he intentionally placed his finger on the trigger. Look at how fast it happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE
As for the "lack of training" thing...why is it that Gunsite, Vickers, Defoor, Suarez, Tactical Response, and numerous LE training academies and departments have BANNED these holsters?
If anyone understanding the importance of training...I would think it might be the guys who make a living training people, full time.
I'm done leading horses to water on this one. Apparently there are too many people who are married to their Serpa, and take anything negative said about the design, personally.
If you're not reasonable enough to objectively look at the design, do the research, and see the short-comings...you're not going to learn anything from something I post here, either.</div></div>
I watched him put his finger on the trigger, pull it, and shoot a hole in his leg. later in slow motion I saw it clearly how he shot himself in the leg.
I'm in wonderment of how you blast the holster, when the guy CLEARLY states several times in the video, "It's MY fault" about what he did?
As far as the release jamming and the plastic breaking, I've seen a bunch of plastic 'Kydex' holsters break. Cold weather is really hard on them. That's the nature of the manufacturing process.
I'm not big on Blackhawk gear at all. I personally will stick to my Galco and custom leather. But, I just don't see the argument here of the people trying to put down Blackhawk. When, in fact, other gear has the same issues.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.
Do you have fork wounds in your lips from trying to eat? Didn't think so. That's due to muscle memory.
Muscle memory takes a lot of time and repetitions to instill. Typical commercial training venues offer one-day or two-day courses for beginner handgun. It's not enough time to instill muscle memory.
In my experience as a trainer, we spent a week+ instilling muscle memory before going to a live-fire range. Even with that, some trainees do not make it. The school I was part of had a strict screening of applicants, and still had an average attrition rate of 35%.
Not everyone is trainable.
In the military, those who are still failing after remediation, are separated from training. In the civilian commercial training market, training is often compressed into a very short block of time. It's impossible to develop the proper skills and commit them to muscle memory in a short period of time. It's not good for business to have a high attrition, where money may have to be refunded to the trainee. It makes better business sense to restrict equipment to the lowest common denominator, and graduate everyone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.
Do you have fork wounds in your lips from trying to eat? Didn't think so. That's due to muscle memory.
Muscle memory takes a lot of time and repetitions to instill. Typical commercial training venues offer one-day or two-day courses for beginner handgun. It's not enough time to instill muscle memory.
In my experience as a trainer, we spent a week+ instilling muscle memory before going to a live-fire range. Even with that, some trainees do not make it. The school I was part of had a strict screening of applicants, and still had an average attrition rate of 35%.
Not everyone is trainable.
In the military, those who are still failing after remediation, are separated from training. In the civilian commercial training market, training is often compressed into a very short block of time. It's impossible to develop the proper skills and commit them to muscle memory in a short period of time. It's not good for business to have a high attrition, where money may have to be refunded to the trainee. It makes better business sense to restrict equipment to the lowest common denominator, and graduate everyone.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.</div></div>
They are a fraction of an inch apart. Suggesting that that is a meaningful distinction is just dishonest.
I was in the military, so I really don't need your explanation of what military training was like. I had a front row seat, thank you very much.
Training courses have banned these holsters because they are a safety hazard and it's very bad for business if someone harms themselves on your range.
Unlike the military, every civilian is not using the same equipment, so there is no baseline of safety. Unsafe equipment is banned, and the student is taught to make the best of his equipment.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.</div></div>
They are a fraction of an inch apart. Suggesting that that is a meaningful distinction is just dishonest.
I was in the military, so I really don't need your explanation of what military training was like. I had a front row seat, thank you very much.
Training courses have banned these holsters because they are a safety hazard and it's very bad for business if someone harms themselves on your range.
Unlike the military, every civilian is not using the same equipment, so there is no baseline of safety. Unsafe equipment is banned, and the student is taught to make the best of his equipment.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock. That's the flaw we're talking about that you seem to be overlooking.
I'm just glad I'm not the only one on the other side of a heated debate this time, because I know my views will be vindicated when Blackhawk is sued and this holster pulled from the market. </div></div>
So basically your stance is, it's just a holster you don't need to know how to operate it correctly,..is that about right?
Many a "Expert" has came to Knob Creek Range thinking/spouting that same train of thought. One is/was a well known TV guy that was in fact a REMF during his time. They wanted him to open the night shoot with a Pig (M60) talking from Red Horse's Aviation's bird being side slipped into the main range. After watching him shoot a locked to the ground 60, there was no way in hell he was shooting live from a bird. He and I talked for 30 minutes about M14's, mud, heat, rain ect. It became very clear early, in the conversation, M14's, their use or field tactics, was beyond him. Although he made a combat movie were the 14 was the star weapon.
Training an experience are the key, always has been always well be.
Would you prefer to fly with a guy that has 10K + hrs in heavy's or a guy that just got his ticket for single engine, their both just planes? Why because Training an experience, is the only thing that separates them.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock. That's the flaw we're talking about that you seem to be overlooking.
I'm just glad I'm not the only one on the other side of a heated debate this time, because I know my views will be vindicated when Blackhawk is sued and this holster pulled from the market. </div></div>
So basically your stance is, it's just a holster you don't need to know how to operate it correctly,..is that about right?
Many a "Expert" has came to Knob Creek Range thinking/spouting that same train of thought. One is/was a well known TV guy that was in fact a REMF during his time. They wanted him to open the night shoot with a Pig (M60) talking from Red Horse's Aviation's bird being side slipped into the main range. After watching him shoot a locked to the ground 60, there was no way in hell he was shooting live from a bird. He and I talked for 30 minutes about M14's, mud, heat, rain ect. It became very clear early, in the conversation, M14's, their use or field tactics, was beyond him. Although he made a combat movie were the 14 was the star weapon.
Training an experience are the key, always has been always well be.
Would you prefer to fly with a guy that has 10K + hrs in heavy's or a guy that just got his ticket for single engine, their both just planes? Why because Training an experience, is the only thing that separates them.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.</div></div>
They are a fraction of an inch apart. Suggesting that that is a meaningful distinction is just dishonest.
</div></div>
If you don't think along the frame is a safe place to put your trigger finger, where do you put yours?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.</div></div>
They are a fraction of an inch apart. Suggesting that that is a meaningful distinction is just dishonest.
</div></div>
If you don't think along the frame is a safe place to put your trigger finger, where do you put yours?
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.</div></div>
They are a fraction of an inch apart. Suggesting that that is a meaningful distinction is just dishonest.
</div></div>
If you don't think along the frame is a safe place to put your trigger finger, where do you put yours? </div></div>
I don't think that a holster that requires that I put pressure on the side of it, even if the frame is behind where I am putting pressure, is safe.
When I draw, my finger is alongside the gun, but it may not even be touching the gun and I certainly am not pushing on the side of my holster when drawing because the draw stroke is entirely completed by my other three fingers and thumb.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock. That's the flaw we're talking about that you seem to be overlooking.
I'm just glad I'm not the only one on the other side of a heated debate this time, because I know my views will be vindicated when Blackhawk is sued and this holster pulled from the market. </div></div>
So basically your stance is, it's just a holster you don't need to know how to operate it correctly,..is that about right?</div></div>
Actually that's not what I said, and it's obvious from what I said that is a gross mischaracterization of what I said. I even pointed out that I use the Ghost holster in competition--which has been blamed for many dropped guns and other unsafe acts, and that certain types of holsters are best left only to skilled persons. The Ghost is not only within that category--it's marketed as such and it says that right on the instructions.
I know how to operate my Ghost and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't want to stand on the range while I'm shooting a stage. I may not be the fastest shooter ever, but I'm perfectly capable of operating a complicated holster rig and I have demonstrated that many, many times.
I could use the Serpa if I wanted. I could probably use it safely. I just won't use it because the design is unsafe, period.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Would you prefer to fly with a guy that has 10K + hrs in heavy's or a guy that just got his ticket for single engine, their both just planes? Why because Training an experience, is the only thing that separates them. </div></div>
Again, this is just disingenuous. An unsafe aircraft that suffered from a design flaw would still be unsafe even at the hands of the most skilled test pilot. The test pilot may have advanced understanding of aerodynamics and thus the ability to fly an aircraft of questionable safety more safely than someone who doesn't know what he's doing, but both are courting disaster when they fly something that is fundamentally unsafe by design.
The Serpa isn't causing people to shoot themselves because they don't know how to use it. The guy in that youtube video who shot himself isn't a complete moron. He's probably made plenty of presentations from that holster. He just fucked up. And the holster surely didn't help him fuck up any less. In fact, it's quite obvious that the design of the holster contributed to his fuckup.
So to answer your question, I wouldn't want to fly in an unsafe, overloaded, poorly designed or maintained, or generally shitty aircraft regardless of who was flying it. If you're so confident that human beings are perfect that you would make that decision, that's on you. I'm not. Human error happens. That's why we expect products to be reasonably safe. The Serpa is not reasonably safe.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.</div></div>
They are a fraction of an inch apart. Suggesting that that is a meaningful distinction is just dishonest.
</div></div>
If you don't think along the frame is a safe place to put your trigger finger, where do you put yours? </div></div>
I don't think that a holster that requires that I put pressure on the side of it, even if the frame is behind where I am putting pressure, is safe.
When I draw, my finger is alongside the gun, but it may not even be touching the gun and I certainly am not pushing on the side of my holster when drawing because the draw stroke is entirely completed by my other three fingers and thumb.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock. That's the flaw we're talking about that you seem to be overlooking.
I'm just glad I'm not the only one on the other side of a heated debate this time, because I know my views will be vindicated when Blackhawk is sued and this holster pulled from the market. </div></div>
So basically your stance is, it's just a holster you don't need to know how to operate it correctly,..is that about right?</div></div>
Actually that's not what I said, and it's obvious from what I said that is a gross mischaracterization of what I said. I even pointed out that I use the Ghost holster in competition--which has been blamed for many dropped guns and other unsafe acts, and that certain types of holsters are best left only to skilled persons. The Ghost is not only within that category--it's marketed as such and it says that right on the instructions.
I know how to operate my Ghost and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't want to stand on the range while I'm shooting a stage. I may not be the fastest shooter ever, but I'm perfectly capable of operating a complicated holster rig and I have demonstrated that many, many times.
I could use the Serpa if I wanted. I could probably use it safely. I just won't use it because the design is unsafe, period.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Would you prefer to fly with a guy that has 10K + hrs in heavy's or a guy that just got his ticket for single engine, their both just planes? Why because Training an experience, is the only thing that separates them. </div></div>
Again, this is just disingenuous. An unsafe aircraft that suffered from a design flaw would still be unsafe even at the hands of the most skilled test pilot. The test pilot may have advanced understanding of aerodynamics and thus the ability to fly an aircraft of questionable safety more safely than someone who doesn't know what he's doing, but both are courting disaster when they fly something that is fundamentally unsafe by design.
The Serpa isn't causing people to shoot themselves because they don't know how to use it. The guy in that youtube video who shot himself isn't a complete moron. He's probably made plenty of presentations from that holster. He just fucked up. And the holster surely didn't help him fuck up any less. In fact, it's quite obvious that the design of the holster contributed to his fuckup.
So to answer your question, I wouldn't want to fly in an unsafe, overloaded, poorly designed or maintained, or generally shitty aircraft regardless of who was flying it. If you're so confident that human beings are perfect that you would make that decision, that's on you. I'm not. Human error happens. That's why we expect products to be reasonably safe. The Serpa is not reasonably safe.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you have fork wounds in your lips from trying to eat?
</div></div>
Thanks Shane, that's the best laugh I've had all day, and it is a solid point regarding the issue at hand!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you have fork wounds in your lips from trying to eat?
</div></div>
Thanks Shane, that's the best laugh I've had all day, and it is a solid point regarding the issue at hand!
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
Most Training courses dont allow serpa holsters... why is this? because most people attending the courses are idiots. the problem with a serpa holster comes when the person is not at the skill level they are training at and are trying to be faster then theyre ready for. so they end up poking the paddle with the tip of there index finger rather than dragging there index finger accross it...with that pressure there finger goes right into the trigger gaurd and bam gun goes off...
with all that said... if you say serpa holsters are dangerous then its probably best that YOU dont use one...for those of us who use them safely and are well trained with them...we can laugh and know the reason they cant use them.
Most Training courses dont allow serpa holsters... why is this? because most people attending the courses are idiots. the problem with a serpa holster comes when the person is not at the skill level they are training at and are trying to be faster then theyre ready for. so they end up poking the paddle with the tip of there index finger rather than dragging there index finger accross it...with that pressure there finger goes right into the trigger gaurd and bam gun goes off...
with all that said... if you say serpa holsters are dangerous then its probably best that YOU dont use one...for those of us who use them safely and are well trained with them...we can laugh and know the reason they cant use them.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
Zero,
The question you tried to side step is still on the table.
The question for your mental refreshment was,...
"So basically your stance is, it's just a holster you don't need to know how to operate it correctly,..is that about right?"
Try it again, or is it just a holster to you?
Your problem is the same now as it was before this thread hit print. Your the type that thinks torte is a perfectly good way, to profit from folks, being stupid with any product.
Do I need to spell it out for you in large print block letters, which I'll be most happy to do, but first answer the question? It's just a holster, whats to learn,... right?
Same between the difference of a Ball point pin an Fountain pen, their both just pins, correct? Or lets do welders, a stick vs a wire vs a Tig,...hell all three are just welders whats to learn/train for?
Can is on your side of the road,...
Zero,
The question you tried to side step is still on the table.
The question for your mental refreshment was,...
"So basically your stance is, it's just a holster you don't need to know how to operate it correctly,..is that about right?"
Try it again, or is it just a holster to you?
Your problem is the same now as it was before this thread hit print. Your the type that thinks torte is a perfectly good way, to profit from folks, being stupid with any product.
Do I need to spell it out for you in large print block letters, which I'll be most happy to do, but first answer the question? It's just a holster, whats to learn,... right?
Same between the difference of a Ball point pin an Fountain pen, their both just pins, correct? Or lets do welders, a stick vs a wire vs a Tig,...hell all three are just welders whats to learn/train for?
Can is on your side of the road,...
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
Jim I have one question for you. What was a big time operator like Chris Cerino doing using a "cheap piece of shit" anyway.
"MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it"
He admitted he was using a holster he was unfamiliar with.
Ted Nugent want-a-be was using a 5-11 thumb drive not a Black Hawk Serpa. And switched guns without checking it out.
But this thread high lighted things. I needed to watch for in using my Serpa.
Jim I have one question for you. What was a big time operator like Chris Cerino doing using a "cheap piece of shit" anyway.
"MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it"
He admitted he was using a holster he was unfamiliar with.
Ted Nugent want-a-be was using a 5-11 thumb drive not a Black Hawk Serpa. And switched guns without checking it out.
But this thread high lighted things. I needed to watch for in using my Serpa.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
I like the Serpa.. color me an idiot, I have done a bunch of courses with people using it and nobody has ever said a word.
To each their own, but I know a lot of guys in the military using Serpas, I have also seen Safariland on there hip and Serpas on their chest, but hey, whatever -- different strokes.
you can get them without the lock, very bladetech like ... but I have yet to have an issue, so until I do, I'll sit with one type, and that is a serpa.
I like the Serpa.. color me an idiot, I have done a bunch of courses with people using it and nobody has ever said a word.
To each their own, but I know a lot of guys in the military using Serpas, I have also seen Safariland on there hip and Serpas on their chest, but hey, whatever -- different strokes.
you can get them without the lock, very bladetech like ... but I have yet to have an issue, so until I do, I'll sit with one type, and that is a serpa.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Training courses have banned these holsters because......<span style="font-weight: bold">it's very bad for business if someone harms themselves on your range</span>....</div></div>
Yep.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Training courses have banned these holsters because......<span style="font-weight: bold">it's very bad for business if someone harms themselves on your range</span>....</div></div>
Yep.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.</div></div>
They are a fraction of an inch apart. Suggesting that that is a meaningful distinction is just dishonest.
</div></div>
I'm not dishonest at all. You just don't like the facts I'm presenting so you want to discredit me. That says more about you than anything else.
A fraction of an inch?.....more like roughly one inch. I suppose .9 is a fraction.
You drawing your weapon with your trigger finger in the air sounds rather odd and un-natural to me. Whatever suits ya. I like straight and along the frame myself.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Except other holsters don't require one to put force in the plane that aims one's finger towards the trigger to release the lock.... </div></div>
Neither does the Serpa. The frame is not the trigger.</div></div>
They are a fraction of an inch apart. Suggesting that that is a meaningful distinction is just dishonest.
</div></div>
I'm not dishonest at all. You just don't like the facts I'm presenting so you want to discredit me. That says more about you than anything else.
A fraction of an inch?.....more like roughly one inch. I suppose .9 is a fraction.
You drawing your weapon with your trigger finger in the air sounds rather odd and un-natural to me. Whatever suits ya. I like straight and along the frame myself.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim I have one question for you. What was a big time operator like Chris Cerino doing using a "cheap piece of shit" anyway.
"MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it"
He admitted he was using a holster he was unfamiliar with.
Ted Nugent want-a-be was using a 5-11 thumb drive not a Black Hawk Serpa. And switched guns without checking it out.
But this thread high lighted things. I needed to watch for in using my Serpa.
</div></div>
To be honest, I have no idea. It's a popular holster with off duty LE (we sell them by the boat load at work), whether he was borrowing a rig, using the same gear as the students he was teaching to...no clue. Lots of possibilities that I'm not privy to.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for those of us who use them safely and are well trained with them...we can laugh and know the reason they cant use them. </div></div>
I'm willing to bet Tex thought the same thing a month ago, too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim I have one question for you. What was a big time operator like Chris Cerino doing using a "cheap piece of shit" anyway.
"MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit aren't getting training on it"
He admitted he was using a holster he was unfamiliar with.
Ted Nugent want-a-be was using a 5-11 thumb drive not a Black Hawk Serpa. And switched guns without checking it out.
But this thread high lighted things. I needed to watch for in using my Serpa.
</div></div>
To be honest, I have no idea. It's a popular holster with off duty LE (we sell them by the boat load at work), whether he was borrowing a rig, using the same gear as the students he was teaching to...no clue. Lots of possibilities that I'm not privy to.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for those of us who use them safely and are well trained with them...we can laugh and know the reason they cant use them. </div></div>
I'm willing to bet Tex thought the same thing a month ago, too.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...why anyone would continue to use this critically flawed design is beyond me...
...The holster is a cheap piece of junk, prone to breaking during any intense struggle, with an exposed mechanism using lots of tiny weak parts...
...MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit...</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...(we sell them by the boat load at work)...
</div></div>
Jim,
So you think they are a cheap, flawed, dangerous POS, but you have no problem selling them by the boat load?
Interesting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...why anyone would continue to use this critically flawed design is beyond me...
...The holster is a cheap piece of junk, prone to breaking during any intense struggle, with an exposed mechanism using lots of tiny weak parts...
...MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit...</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...(we sell them by the boat load at work)...
</div></div>
Jim,
So you think they are a cheap, flawed, dangerous POS, but you have no problem selling them by the boat load?
Interesting.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...why anyone would continue to use this critically flawed design is beyond me...
...The holster is a cheap piece of junk, prone to breaking during any intense struggle, with an exposed mechanism using lots of tiny weak parts...
...MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit...</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...(we sell them by the boat load at work)...
</div></div>
Jim,
So you think they are a cheap, flawed, dangerous POS, but you have no problem selling them by the boat load?
Interesting.</div></div>
I'm not the owner, nor do I dictate what companies we buy from.
I talk everyone who <span style="font-weight: bold">asks</span> into a Safariland, there are over 100 employee's where I work...I'm not the only guy in sales there.
They're in the business of providing customers with stuff they want to buy. Lots of people want to buy a Serpa. They might not know any better, but their money is still green.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...why anyone would continue to use this critically flawed design is beyond me...
...The holster is a cheap piece of junk, prone to breaking during any intense struggle, with an exposed mechanism using lots of tiny weak parts...
...MOST people buying this cheap piece of shit...</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...(we sell them by the boat load at work)...
</div></div>
Jim,
So you think they are a cheap, flawed, dangerous POS, but you have no problem selling them by the boat load?
Interesting.</div></div>
I'm not the owner, nor do I dictate what companies we buy from.
I talk everyone who <span style="font-weight: bold">asks</span> into a Safariland, there are over 100 employee's where I work...I'm not the only guy in sales there.
They're in the business of providing customers with stuff they want to buy. Lots of people want to buy a Serpa. They might not know any better, but their money is still green.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
My Sig 229 was sitting here in my Serpa and I put it on and did a bunch of less than kosher draws, and I found out, my finger doesn't actually push the release it just sort of lays on it, and no matter how I tried to screw it up, my finger fell on the frame and not on the trigger, fast, hard, unorthodox, I couldn't make my finger hit the trigger.
Really there is next to no pressure required to release it... but hey that could be all me as I have stuck to the same holster for some time now.
My Sig 229 was sitting here in my Serpa and I put it on and did a bunch of less than kosher draws, and I found out, my finger doesn't actually push the release it just sort of lays on it, and no matter how I tried to screw it up, my finger fell on the frame and not on the trigger, fast, hard, unorthodox, I couldn't make my finger hit the trigger.
Really there is next to no pressure required to release it... but hey that could be all me as I have stuck to the same holster for some time now.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
I've only been practicing with mine for a few days, but I find the same. Very little pressure required to release.
If your finger is located where it should be, the holster unlocks.
I've only been practicing with mine for a few days, but I find the same. Very little pressure required to release.
If your finger is located where it should be, the holster unlocks.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
When I was in, a lot of people rocked the Serpa. Me, I ran a 6004 drop because it was what I had used in training. Is it a "safer" holster than the Serpa? I can't really say because I am not an expert.
I do know that when I got my first 6004, the instructions (yes, I read the instructions)clearly stated something to the effect that the user should practice/train with the holster and an empty weapon for a minimum of 300 draws before using it in a duty status/service.
I think a big part of the issue is complacency that has people developing bad muscle memory which, inevitably, degrades adherence to/employment of basic safety. Look at clearing barrels, for instance...instructions on what to do right next to them, but yet people still find a way to crank a round off every now and then.
When I was in, a lot of people rocked the Serpa. Me, I ran a 6004 drop because it was what I had used in training. Is it a "safer" holster than the Serpa? I can't really say because I am not an expert.
I do know that when I got my first 6004, the instructions (yes, I read the instructions)clearly stated something to the effect that the user should practice/train with the holster and an empty weapon for a minimum of 300 draws before using it in a duty status/service.
I think a big part of the issue is complacency that has people developing bad muscle memory which, inevitably, degrades adherence to/employment of basic safety. Look at clearing barrels, for instance...instructions on what to do right next to them, but yet people still find a way to crank a round off every now and then.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
I'm with LL and MM. Since this topic was started I've gone out to play with mine. Before I never gave it a thought. If I slow down and concentrate I can poke my finger in the trigger guard.
When I shoot, as in a match, I lay my finger alone the holster where it would lay on the frame if the holster wasn't there. As I pull the gun from my holster my finger slides alone the release and disengages the trigger. It doesn't seem like I have to put any pressure on it at all. There is an indentation on the holster (I guess to protect the release button) where my finger naturally lays. As the gun comes out of the holster, my finger remains straigth (same with every holster I have) and falls on the slide.
I just can't understand how someone could accidently poke their finger in the trigger guard.
Maybe I just have wierd hands. But it works the same in the CQCs for my semis and revolvers.
When I run a range,I don't care what holster you carry as long as the trigger is covered, and the gun doesn't fall out.
BUT if your finger goes to the trigger before you're on target you're history.
As I said, equipment fails, no matter what it is, it can fail. Fingers don't fail, if they go into the trigger guard, you have to put it there.
In playing with, and examining the CQC holster, the only thing I can see could go wrong is the release could fail, but then it wouldnt secure the gun, or it wouldn't allow you to get the gun out of the holster.
The later could be a problem I guess, but as mentioned, I'm old, if it fails I screw up a match.
No big deal.
So unless someone can show me where the holster has a lttle gadget comes out, grabs your finger, puts it in the trigger guard, then its the shooter not the holster.
I'm with LL and MM. Since this topic was started I've gone out to play with mine. Before I never gave it a thought. If I slow down and concentrate I can poke my finger in the trigger guard.
When I shoot, as in a match, I lay my finger alone the holster where it would lay on the frame if the holster wasn't there. As I pull the gun from my holster my finger slides alone the release and disengages the trigger. It doesn't seem like I have to put any pressure on it at all. There is an indentation on the holster (I guess to protect the release button) where my finger naturally lays. As the gun comes out of the holster, my finger remains straigth (same with every holster I have) and falls on the slide.
I just can't understand how someone could accidently poke their finger in the trigger guard.
Maybe I just have wierd hands. But it works the same in the CQCs for my semis and revolvers.
When I run a range,I don't care what holster you carry as long as the trigger is covered, and the gun doesn't fall out.
BUT if your finger goes to the trigger before you're on target you're history.
As I said, equipment fails, no matter what it is, it can fail. Fingers don't fail, if they go into the trigger guard, you have to put it there.
In playing with, and examining the CQC holster, the only thing I can see could go wrong is the release could fail, but then it wouldnt secure the gun, or it wouldn't allow you to get the gun out of the holster.
The later could be a problem I guess, but as mentioned, I'm old, if it fails I screw up a match.
No big deal.
So unless someone can show me where the holster has a lttle gadget comes out, grabs your finger, puts it in the trigger guard, then its the shooter not the holster.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So unless someone can show me where the holster has a lttle gadget comes out, grabs your finger, puts it in the trigger guard, then its the shooter not the holster. </div></div>
Everyone that has common sense, and knows you don't gear w/ new to you shit an head to the fight, knows were the root issue is.
That said there is another element that comes into play,...Perception.
Perception,... from some range instructors that everyone showing up is above a very basic level, knows their gear an takes the students word for that fact.
Perception,... The student has, that speed in the draw against live meat is the only thing that matters.
I'd like to see the total stats an AAR's on the SI-GSW's,..my money says they were trying to beat a clock or worst, with gear they had little time with. Or their mental ability is such they rattle too easily, an panic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So unless someone can show me where the holster has a lttle gadget comes out, grabs your finger, puts it in the trigger guard, then its the shooter not the holster. </div></div>
Everyone that has common sense, and knows you don't gear w/ new to you shit an head to the fight, knows were the root issue is.
That said there is another element that comes into play,...Perception.
Perception,... from some range instructors that everyone showing up is above a very basic level, knows their gear an takes the students word for that fact.
Perception,... The student has, that speed in the draw against live meat is the only thing that matters.
I'd like to see the total stats an AAR's on the SI-GSW's,..my money says they were trying to beat a clock or worst, with gear they had little time with. Or their mental ability is such they rattle too easily, an panic.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zero,
The question you tried to side step is still on the table.
The question for your mental refreshment was,...
"So basically your stance is, it's just a holster you don't need to know how to operate it correctly,..is that about right?"
Try it again, or is it just a holster to you?
Your problem is the same now as it was before this thread hit print. Your the type that thinks torte is a perfectly good way, to profit from folks, being stupid with any product.
Do I need to spell it out for you in large print block letters, which I'll be most happy to do, but first answer the question? It's just a holster, whats to learn,... right?
Same between the difference of a Ball point pin an Fountain pen, their both just pins, correct? Or lets do welders, a stick vs a wire vs a Tig,...hell all three are just welders whats to learn/train for?
Can is on your side of the road,...
</div></div>
Haven't side stepped anything.
All holsters require practice. It's a stupid question. It doesn't matter what kind of holster you use. You need to know how to use it safely.
The Serpa suffers from a design flaw. It can't be used safely. Before you get your panties all in a bunch, I'll clarify what I mean by that. The Serpa can be used "safely" if "I didn't shoot myself and made it home" are the criteria for "safe" use. It cannot be used safely if one considers that using it involves increased risk from reasonable alternative design.
I don't know what you think you're pointing out. TIG welding and MIG welding are not the same process. Drawing from a Blade tech is not the same as a Ghost or Serpa. A ball point pen is not the same as a fountain pen. All have different theories of operation and the user needs to know how to use all of them.
Tort law is not about "profit." Tort law exists to correct externalites. In other words, tort law exists to prevent wrongdoers from profiting from their own wrong by forcing them to compensate the person wronged. Perhaps products liability is a bad example of this, but if you drive negligently and hit me while I'm crossing the street, and I sue, the money you've paid me is not "profit" and I'm not selling you my bodily integrity. The damages assessed if the jury finds that you were negligent is to compensate me for my injuries and prevent YOU from causing injury to me, costing me money and time, and not compensating me for that injury. It's no different than if I accidentally shot your cattle and had to compensate you for the loss sustained (i.e., the profit you would have earned from selling the cattle at market price).
This thread really shouldn't have to be an amateur class on tort law. Wrongdoers should pay for their wrong; this is common sense. The Serpa is a shitty design. There are reasonably safe alternatively designed holsters out there.
Frank and others,
I'm not surprised that you, as expert users, find it difficult to replicate stupid people's mistakes. Race car drivers probably couldn't figure out how to make the Corvair "unsafe at any speed," either (not that it was, but it's a commonly cited example so I might as well use it rather than come up with my own, since it's just for the sake of discussion).
There's very little doubt that expert users can overcome the Serpa's design flaw. That said, the "reasonable man" is not a "reasonable man who is so skilled such that he can overcome design flaws." That the holster can be operated safely by an expert user doesn't demonstrate that it doesn't suffer from a design flaw.
I'm pretty confident that I could do ten thousand presentations from a Serpa in the next week without shooting myself in the leg, too. That doesn't mean that the Serpa is safer than a reasonable alternative design. That just demonstrates that I, like you guys, and unlike this Tex character, who apparently can't use a thumb safety, either, have the skill to overcome the condition that makes the Serpa less safe than its competitors.
The real question that the Serpa defenders should ask is: are there any holster designs that are safer? Does the draw stroke that the various Safariland retention holsters utilize do a better job of discouraging operator error? I think that the answers to those questions are relatively clear. Some disagree.
Either way, demonstrating that it can be used safely isn't enough to show that the design isn't flawed.
Somehow, I suspect that neither "Lowlight," "MontanaMarine," "Gunfighter 14e2" or "Downzero" are going to be the plaintiffs in the hypothetical lawsuit. "Billy bob the @#$@!ing moron who shot himself" is a much more likely candidate, if you catch my drift.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Zero,
The question you tried to side step is still on the table.
The question for your mental refreshment was,...
"So basically your stance is, it's just a holster you don't need to know how to operate it correctly,..is that about right?"
Try it again, or is it just a holster to you?
Your problem is the same now as it was before this thread hit print. Your the type that thinks torte is a perfectly good way, to profit from folks, being stupid with any product.
Do I need to spell it out for you in large print block letters, which I'll be most happy to do, but first answer the question? It's just a holster, whats to learn,... right?
Same between the difference of a Ball point pin an Fountain pen, their both just pins, correct? Or lets do welders, a stick vs a wire vs a Tig,...hell all three are just welders whats to learn/train for?
Can is on your side of the road,...
</div></div>
Haven't side stepped anything.
All holsters require practice. It's a stupid question. It doesn't matter what kind of holster you use. You need to know how to use it safely.
The Serpa suffers from a design flaw. It can't be used safely. Before you get your panties all in a bunch, I'll clarify what I mean by that. The Serpa can be used "safely" if "I didn't shoot myself and made it home" are the criteria for "safe" use. It cannot be used safely if one considers that using it involves increased risk from reasonable alternative design.
I don't know what you think you're pointing out. TIG welding and MIG welding are not the same process. Drawing from a Blade tech is not the same as a Ghost or Serpa. A ball point pen is not the same as a fountain pen. All have different theories of operation and the user needs to know how to use all of them.
Tort law is not about "profit." Tort law exists to correct externalites. In other words, tort law exists to prevent wrongdoers from profiting from their own wrong by forcing them to compensate the person wronged. Perhaps products liability is a bad example of this, but if you drive negligently and hit me while I'm crossing the street, and I sue, the money you've paid me is not "profit" and I'm not selling you my bodily integrity. The damages assessed if the jury finds that you were negligent is to compensate me for my injuries and prevent YOU from causing injury to me, costing me money and time, and not compensating me for that injury. It's no different than if I accidentally shot your cattle and had to compensate you for the loss sustained (i.e., the profit you would have earned from selling the cattle at market price).
This thread really shouldn't have to be an amateur class on tort law. Wrongdoers should pay for their wrong; this is common sense. The Serpa is a shitty design. There are reasonably safe alternatively designed holsters out there.
Frank and others,
I'm not surprised that you, as expert users, find it difficult to replicate stupid people's mistakes. Race car drivers probably couldn't figure out how to make the Corvair "unsafe at any speed," either (not that it was, but it's a commonly cited example so I might as well use it rather than come up with my own, since it's just for the sake of discussion).
There's very little doubt that expert users can overcome the Serpa's design flaw. That said, the "reasonable man" is not a "reasonable man who is so skilled such that he can overcome design flaws." That the holster can be operated safely by an expert user doesn't demonstrate that it doesn't suffer from a design flaw.
I'm pretty confident that I could do ten thousand presentations from a Serpa in the next week without shooting myself in the leg, too. That doesn't mean that the Serpa is safer than a reasonable alternative design. That just demonstrates that I, like you guys, and unlike this Tex character, who apparently can't use a thumb safety, either, have the skill to overcome the condition that makes the Serpa less safe than its competitors.
The real question that the Serpa defenders should ask is: are there any holster designs that are safer? Does the draw stroke that the various Safariland retention holsters utilize do a better job of discouraging operator error? I think that the answers to those questions are relatively clear. Some disagree.
Either way, demonstrating that it can be used safely isn't enough to show that the design isn't flawed.
Somehow, I suspect that neither "Lowlight," "MontanaMarine," "Gunfighter 14e2" or "Downzero" are going to be the plaintiffs in the hypothetical lawsuit. "Billy bob the @#$@!ing moron who shot himself" is a much more likely candidate, if you catch my drift.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
I doubt I'm anywhere near the ability of those that shot their selfs. However I do know many folks can't grasp the fact training is key to any task, be it as simple as not sticking a fork into you lip as MM pointed out.
By Your own admission there is a difference between items with the same name, and not all folks that use weapons are created equal, when new gear is thrown into the mix. Yes there are folks who can do battlefield pickups and never miss a lick. Only,... because they have been trained on the how's an why's. If you don't think that's true, go To Knob Creek Range, an test that ability.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tort law is not about "profit." Tort law exists to correct externalites. In other words, tort law exists to prevent wrongdoers from profiting from their own wrong by forcing them to compensate the person wronged.</div></div>
Bullshit, it's about,...Hook, Crook an Shyster's pockets,... but they do spin it nicely, for sheep food.
There is nothing wrong, with the Serpa that is fact. I bet you would be one of those types that would buy an SUV or truck knowing the first time you set in it, you were setting higher than any car you ever drove, and said this is nice, I can see everything. Then you turn it over in a one vehicle stupid, (yes a stupid, not the spin word accident) because a bunny ran out in front of you, while you were driving it like a car and jurked the wheel and rolled over. Then you say that thing rolled over because it sets to high off the ground, lets sue the mfg'er.
Nothing in life is free, to get something, you have to give up something. However Lawyers what you to believe, it's the mfg'ers that caused the problem. Do you know how much stuff in rolling iron, from the mid 80's on, is there because of stupid. Then uncle steps in an says, OK to stop stupid you have to do XXX which make YYY needed as well.
This whole waste of bandwidth is because you, yes You, what to sue Serpa, an you have Admit-ed that fact. The facts you brought to the table would not hold water, Chris C. own statement remember/unless it's just a holster?
This was about torte from the beginning, when you posted, an has been from that time on.
With a lesser group you may have beat the horse long enough that most sheep would have given up, but this place has way more than it's share of sheep dogs. The thing you don't get an never will is, sheep dogs don't quit,...ever. That is only one of their ability's, that separate them from sheep an wolf's. Uncle instilled in many of us you never ever give up.
As I grow older I find the chipping away of the sheep's ability to think for their self is becoming more common place. That requires Sheep Dogs keep a closer watch on the wolves who want to profit at the sheep's expense.
Someone made comment to the movie "Training Day" in another thread, they were so right. It's not about the law, it's about what you can prove.
You have proved nothing, after stepping from the shadows, but that fact was known by many that read threw many of your posts prior to this one. Another ability of sheep dogs, sniffing out where a person stands, and what their about.
Cans on your side of the road again,....
I doubt I'm anywhere near the ability of those that shot their selfs. However I do know many folks can't grasp the fact training is key to any task, be it as simple as not sticking a fork into you lip as MM pointed out.
By Your own admission there is a difference between items with the same name, and not all folks that use weapons are created equal, when new gear is thrown into the mix. Yes there are folks who can do battlefield pickups and never miss a lick. Only,... because they have been trained on the how's an why's. If you don't think that's true, go To Knob Creek Range, an test that ability.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tort law is not about "profit." Tort law exists to correct externalites. In other words, tort law exists to prevent wrongdoers from profiting from their own wrong by forcing them to compensate the person wronged.</div></div>
Bullshit, it's about,...Hook, Crook an Shyster's pockets,... but they do spin it nicely, for sheep food.
There is nothing wrong, with the Serpa that is fact. I bet you would be one of those types that would buy an SUV or truck knowing the first time you set in it, you were setting higher than any car you ever drove, and said this is nice, I can see everything. Then you turn it over in a one vehicle stupid, (yes a stupid, not the spin word accident) because a bunny ran out in front of you, while you were driving it like a car and jurked the wheel and rolled over. Then you say that thing rolled over because it sets to high off the ground, lets sue the mfg'er.
Nothing in life is free, to get something, you have to give up something. However Lawyers what you to believe, it's the mfg'ers that caused the problem. Do you know how much stuff in rolling iron, from the mid 80's on, is there because of stupid. Then uncle steps in an says, OK to stop stupid you have to do XXX which make YYY needed as well.
This whole waste of bandwidth is because you, yes You, what to sue Serpa, an you have Admit-ed that fact. The facts you brought to the table would not hold water, Chris C. own statement remember/unless it's just a holster?
This was about torte from the beginning, when you posted, an has been from that time on.
With a lesser group you may have beat the horse long enough that most sheep would have given up, but this place has way more than it's share of sheep dogs. The thing you don't get an never will is, sheep dogs don't quit,...ever. That is only one of their ability's, that separate them from sheep an wolf's. Uncle instilled in many of us you never ever give up.
As I grow older I find the chipping away of the sheep's ability to think for their self is becoming more common place. That requires Sheep Dogs keep a closer watch on the wolves who want to profit at the sheep's expense.
Someone made comment to the movie "Training Day" in another thread, they were so right. It's not about the law, it's about what you can prove.
You have proved nothing, after stepping from the shadows, but that fact was known by many that read threw many of your posts prior to this one. Another ability of sheep dogs, sniffing out where a person stands, and what their about.
Cans on your side of the road again,....
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess you're just one good car accident away from "profiting" then. </div></div>
That's is funny'er than you know.
29th of may last year, 23yo kid hit my 86 Bronco II (they set high by the way)I had bought new. It flipped 3-5 times per wits, an Opelika Alabama PD. I was out for a few an woke up to find myself sliding upside down in the divider. The kid that hit me in the r/r was speeding per all wits and driving erratic. OPD officers had issue with his version at the site. The thought never entered my mind to sue Ford, and I was quit pissed at the lawyers I had to retain for even bringing that up, Ford was not involved in the stupid-ness of 23yo kid an did nothing wrong.
I believe in big boy rules an, it's very clear to me now were you stand in life. With you it's always someone else's fault never the stupid ass using the item.
Guess the rest of us are super humans, but in your eyes we need to pay for the ones that are educated beyond their intelligence an think they never need to stop an read the instructions, or seek training no matter the item.
Let me see if I've got the evidence correct,...
SI-GSW person, is drawing from a Serpa Retention Holster, they fail to properly operate the retention device, then while in a stressful environment or they panic, they pull so hard their finger curls an breach's the trigger guard while the weapons muzzle is still pointed at them, an they actively pull the trigger, causing the SI-GSW. Is that about right?
If you don't operate any thing correctly,...News flash for you,..your going to get hurt or worst. That said most folks know that as fact, but some would have you believe you need to be paid for Stupid. All the while H,C,& S make a few bucks as they can't do anything else but run their lips for a living. Ever wonder way some folks are moving their operations and money out of this country, look into a mirror.
Product liability insurance on some products is more per item, than the raw materials cost, and in some products, more than the total material an labor cost combined. Who pays for that, the folks that are not stupid or trying to live off others hard work, that's who.
Can is on your side of the road,...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess you're just one good car accident away from "profiting" then. </div></div>
That's is funny'er than you know.
29th of may last year, 23yo kid hit my 86 Bronco II (they set high by the way)I had bought new. It flipped 3-5 times per wits, an Opelika Alabama PD. I was out for a few an woke up to find myself sliding upside down in the divider. The kid that hit me in the r/r was speeding per all wits and driving erratic. OPD officers had issue with his version at the site. The thought never entered my mind to sue Ford, and I was quit pissed at the lawyers I had to retain for even bringing that up, Ford was not involved in the stupid-ness of 23yo kid an did nothing wrong.
I believe in big boy rules an, it's very clear to me now were you stand in life. With you it's always someone else's fault never the stupid ass using the item.
Guess the rest of us are super humans, but in your eyes we need to pay for the ones that are educated beyond their intelligence an think they never need to stop an read the instructions, or seek training no matter the item.
Let me see if I've got the evidence correct,...
SI-GSW person, is drawing from a Serpa Retention Holster, they fail to properly operate the retention device, then while in a stressful environment or they panic, they pull so hard their finger curls an breach's the trigger guard while the weapons muzzle is still pointed at them, an they actively pull the trigger, causing the SI-GSW. Is that about right?
If you don't operate any thing correctly,...News flash for you,..your going to get hurt or worst. That said most folks know that as fact, but some would have you believe you need to be paid for Stupid. All the while H,C,& S make a few bucks as they can't do anything else but run their lips for a living. Ever wonder way some folks are moving their operations and money out of this country, look into a mirror.
Product liability insurance on some products is more per item, than the raw materials cost, and in some products, more than the total material an labor cost combined. Who pays for that, the folks that are not stupid or trying to live off others hard work, that's who.
Can is on your side of the road,...
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
I understand the argument, however it is tough to say where to assess blame,
This is sort of the same argument against the safety on the glock, as anything that gets in the trigger guard can cause and has caused the glock to discharge. Take a Fleece with cinch cords at the bottom, it has been noted that these hanging over a holster have fallen into the glock trigger guards causing them to fire when you re-holster the pistol. So by the logic demonstrated above, a glock is inherently unsafe, as is any outwear with a cinch cord located near the hips where a holster will sit.
Do somethings require more training than others, I believe so, does this make them less desirable because they don't speak to lowest common denominator. Sure, as well pricing and availability suggest it (Serpa) should be universal for everyone, but clearly it is not for everyone.
I have seen people ND with a lot of stuff, like when AICS magazines / Chassis became more widespread. People, leaving their finger near their sub 2lbs trigger would lift up on the stock to clear the ground, and pull down on the magazine firing the rifle. Saw this more than once... lefties using a right handed action are big for leaving their finger on the trigger and running the bolt. So making a argument against anything is not very hard.
I like Serpas, they are secure, they are easily moved, they are cheap so I can get more than one for each handgun, and they come in a variety of colors and connection types. I have put together padded molle belts with everything using Blackhawk holsters for less than $175, which is great, now I have 3 belts set up in a variety of ways but all with the same holster.
Safariland makes good stuff, but they were never for me. Simple not my cup of tea.
I understand the argument, however it is tough to say where to assess blame,
This is sort of the same argument against the safety on the glock, as anything that gets in the trigger guard can cause and has caused the glock to discharge. Take a Fleece with cinch cords at the bottom, it has been noted that these hanging over a holster have fallen into the glock trigger guards causing them to fire when you re-holster the pistol. So by the logic demonstrated above, a glock is inherently unsafe, as is any outwear with a cinch cord located near the hips where a holster will sit.
Do somethings require more training than others, I believe so, does this make them less desirable because they don't speak to lowest common denominator. Sure, as well pricing and availability suggest it (Serpa) should be universal for everyone, but clearly it is not for everyone.
I have seen people ND with a lot of stuff, like when AICS magazines / Chassis became more widespread. People, leaving their finger near their sub 2lbs trigger would lift up on the stock to clear the ground, and pull down on the magazine firing the rifle. Saw this more than once... lefties using a right handed action are big for leaving their finger on the trigger and running the bolt. So making a argument against anything is not very hard.
I like Serpas, they are secure, they are easily moved, they are cheap so I can get more than one for each handgun, and they come in a variety of colors and connection types. I have put together padded molle belts with everything using Blackhawk holsters for less than $175, which is great, now I have 3 belts set up in a variety of ways but all with the same holster.
Safariland makes good stuff, but they were never for me. Simple not my cup of tea.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
as a deputy ive watched this thread since it began, i also use a serpa everyday off duty!
downzero since your post where you talked about law suits i realized your are a huge detriment to the gun community and i hope one day i am fortunate enough to write you a nice fat citation! its guys like you who give hard working Americans a bad name. if you dont like the holster dont buy it we dont need to hear your lame unintelligent arguments, i for one find them anti gun and very socialistic in nature......instead of banning the serpa lets ban your way of thinking.
i apologize to others for a harsh post i just needed to vent,
as a deputy ive watched this thread since it began, i also use a serpa everyday off duty!
downzero since your post where you talked about law suits i realized your are a huge detriment to the gun community and i hope one day i am fortunate enough to write you a nice fat citation! its guys like you who give hard working Americans a bad name. if you dont like the holster dont buy it we dont need to hear your lame unintelligent arguments, i for one find them anti gun and very socialistic in nature......instead of banning the serpa lets ban your way of thinking.
i apologize to others for a harsh post i just needed to vent,
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
Serpas cause negligent discharges like cameras cause child pornography. It comes down to responsibility of the shooter. The pistol doesn't shoot itself on the account of you drawing. It shoots when you pull the trigger.
Serpas cause negligent discharges like cameras cause child pornography. It comes down to responsibility of the shooter. The pistol doesn't shoot itself on the account of you drawing. It shoots when you pull the trigger.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
In the case of the leg shoot video, I think the "Thumb drive" holster is more responsible for Tex's accident than the SERPA. Pushing down with your thumb causes the rest of the fingers to react by flexing towards the palm.
He used that holster prior with a different pistol, then switched to a single action with a thumb safety in condition one to do fast CQ draw and grabbed the trigger as soon as possible....anyone see the problem (at least Tex did and admits it)?
See my above post with the 3 rules of firearm safety, all of which were broken by the shooter, not the holster.
In the case of the leg shoot video, I think the "Thumb drive" holster is more responsible for Tex's accident than the SERPA. Pushing down with your thumb causes the rest of the fingers to react by flexing towards the palm.
He used that holster prior with a different pistol, then switched to a single action with a thumb safety in condition one to do fast CQ draw and grabbed the trigger as soon as possible....anyone see the problem (at least Tex did and admits it)?
See my above post with the 3 rules of firearm safety, all of which were broken by the shooter, not the holster.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
Well I think the pattern is clear in this discussion. Everyone comes in with their strong hand.
Salesman who has had a bit of rangetime and alot of lean on the counter time sees it from the equipment side and apparently with no real experience on just what it takes to ND using the serpa. Oh, least we forget, he feels his RO time gives him the ability to speak even if he never used a serpa and apparently never saw one fail.
Of course a lawyer wanders in and holds up the threat of lawsuits. Now if ALL ranges and Instructors trembled at that suggestion our lawyer would have a tough time finding a range to shoot his idea of the best rifle made. (A fine conniseur of rifles he is, his rifle is a winchester)
Then there are a few with time using a serpa, a few with time instructing, a few with both.
So whom to believe, the salesman who admits the holster is popular and has never seen a serpa induced ND in person, but has oodles or RO time.
The lawyer who sees a lawsuit waiting to happen
Guys who use the holster, guys who teach the holster and by the by dont make any more money off a serpa user than a safari guy. Most Instructors teach what the student brings.
What does strike me as odd that there are thousands of You Tubes with drunk midgets fighting state police but the few on NDs ALL have the shooter admitting they, not the rig, screwed up.
My biggest knock on the thumb flap you push forward and off the rear of a pistol is it can leave a small handed person out of position for a clean pull up and out. The stress monkey mentioned in force on force, (we called it 'actual scenerio' back in the olden days), that robs us of fine motor skills can cause a female or other small handed person to bobble.
No holster is perfect. What condition you carry the weapon makes a difference. How many safeties are on your pistol makes a difference.
How much training a person does prior to going hot makes a difference.
By hey, if a salesman and a lawyer say serpa is dangerous who are the experienced ones to disagree?
Well I think the pattern is clear in this discussion. Everyone comes in with their strong hand.
Salesman who has had a bit of rangetime and alot of lean on the counter time sees it from the equipment side and apparently with no real experience on just what it takes to ND using the serpa. Oh, least we forget, he feels his RO time gives him the ability to speak even if he never used a serpa and apparently never saw one fail.
Of course a lawyer wanders in and holds up the threat of lawsuits. Now if ALL ranges and Instructors trembled at that suggestion our lawyer would have a tough time finding a range to shoot his idea of the best rifle made. (A fine conniseur of rifles he is, his rifle is a winchester)
Then there are a few with time using a serpa, a few with time instructing, a few with both.
So whom to believe, the salesman who admits the holster is popular and has never seen a serpa induced ND in person, but has oodles or RO time.
The lawyer who sees a lawsuit waiting to happen
Guys who use the holster, guys who teach the holster and by the by dont make any more money off a serpa user than a safari guy. Most Instructors teach what the student brings.
What does strike me as odd that there are thousands of You Tubes with drunk midgets fighting state police but the few on NDs ALL have the shooter admitting they, not the rig, screwed up.
My biggest knock on the thumb flap you push forward and off the rear of a pistol is it can leave a small handed person out of position for a clean pull up and out. The stress monkey mentioned in force on force, (we called it 'actual scenerio' back in the olden days), that robs us of fine motor skills can cause a female or other small handed person to bobble.
No holster is perfect. What condition you carry the weapon makes a difference. How many safeties are on your pistol makes a difference.
How much training a person does prior to going hot makes a difference.
By hey, if a salesman and a lawyer say serpa is dangerous who are the experienced ones to disagree?
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
You forgot the idiot who can't keep his booger chaser out of the trigger guard until he's ready to shoot, and blaims his own fuckup on the equipment, then calls the lawyer to make a buck out of his own stupidity.
This is the same moron who will sue the parts company because the clerk who sold him the fan belt forgot to tell him to shut off the engine before he changed out the belts.
You forgot the idiot who can't keep his booger chaser out of the trigger guard until he's ready to shoot, and blaims his own fuckup on the equipment, then calls the lawyer to make a buck out of his own stupidity.
This is the same moron who will sue the parts company because the clerk who sold him the fan belt forgot to tell him to shut off the engine before he changed out the belts.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is the same moron who will sue the parts company because the clerk who sold him the fan belt forgot to tell him to shut off the engine before he changed out the belts. </div></div>
All of the Caution, Warning, an Danger stickers placed upon items are there to try an stop stupid, an the automotive/industrial world is painfully aware of how stupid breeds.
The best one I've ever seen was a combo of all three.
Remember, Notify production, before lock out/tag out is used.
Caution, This area has equipment that is auto start,
Warning, Equipment past this door may start at any time,
Danger, Equipment past this door that may injure, or cause death, to you or others.
If you are unsure want Caution, Warning, or Danger means, please pick up the Red phone located to the left side of the Door an wait for a response prior to entering, an a trained person to guide you.
Someone wrote with a sharpie below that sticker,... If you don't understand the above, please enter, touch an look closely at everything, make the world will be a better place.
MontanaMarine,
I'm Sorry, it came to this in your thread, but lawsuits that reward stupid, an put food on the table of Hucksters is just one of those subjects,...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is the same moron who will sue the parts company because the clerk who sold him the fan belt forgot to tell him to shut off the engine before he changed out the belts. </div></div>
All of the Caution, Warning, an Danger stickers placed upon items are there to try an stop stupid, an the automotive/industrial world is painfully aware of how stupid breeds.
The best one I've ever seen was a combo of all three.
Remember, Notify production, before lock out/tag out is used.
Caution, This area has equipment that is auto start,
Warning, Equipment past this door may start at any time,
Danger, Equipment past this door that may injure, or cause death, to you or others.
If you are unsure want Caution, Warning, or Danger means, please pick up the Red phone located to the left side of the Door an wait for a response prior to entering, an a trained person to guide you.
Someone wrote with a sharpie below that sticker,... If you don't understand the above, please enter, touch an look closely at everything, make the world will be a better place.
MontanaMarine,
I'm Sorry, it came to this in your thread, but lawsuits that reward stupid, an put food on the table of Hucksters is just one of those subjects,...
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
Getting back on track,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently picked up one of these holsters so I figured I'd give some initial impressions.
I wanted a simple paddle holster mainly for open-carry for day-to-day use around the home, and in the hills. I like the minimal designs, but also want good retention, but without a thumb break.
This holster seems plenty sturdy for my needs, lightweight, and impervious to conditions. I like leather, but synthetic doesn't make my head hurt. This holster is made of carbon fiber per Blackhawk, but I assume there is polymer holding it all together. It's very stiff.
The holster comes with both beltloop, and paddle mounting options. I went paddle for now. There is adjustability for cant forward or aft making it useful for strongside, or crossdraw wear. I go with strongside.
I have read some comments that the Serpa design is considered by some to be unsafe, in that the release puts your finger on the trigger as the pistol clears the holster. I do not find that to be true. The holster release actually positions your trigger finger straight, and along the frame as the pistol clears the holster.
Drawing, and re-holstering are ergonomic, and intuitive. The pistol locks into the holster with an audible 'click' when reholstered.
Pistol is securely locked in the holster via the locking mechanism that engages the trigger guard. There is a molded groove to let your trigger finger find ther correct position for release and draw.
The release grip is essentially the proper safe grip with trigger finger straight along the frame.</div></div>
On all mine I've re-ajusted the holster grip friction screw (if that's the correct term) for each weapon they are dedicated to. Now they slip out very, very easy and yet don't rattle. I had to adjusted every one to my liking, but it's easy. I Played with angles until it felt natural, on either side.
Side note, As you know, they don't make one for a G-35 so I took one for a G-22 an added a home made extension with a drain hole. Then took a bike inter tube an placed it over the release paddle and tapped it into place. It does not touch the release paddle, while keeping stuff out of the release. After Using this style of holster long enough, releasing the 35 with the tube in place, is not a problem on the drop leg I made for field use.
Getting back on track,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently picked up one of these holsters so I figured I'd give some initial impressions.
I wanted a simple paddle holster mainly for open-carry for day-to-day use around the home, and in the hills. I like the minimal designs, but also want good retention, but without a thumb break.
This holster seems plenty sturdy for my needs, lightweight, and impervious to conditions. I like leather, but synthetic doesn't make my head hurt. This holster is made of carbon fiber per Blackhawk, but I assume there is polymer holding it all together. It's very stiff.
The holster comes with both beltloop, and paddle mounting options. I went paddle for now. There is adjustability for cant forward or aft making it useful for strongside, or crossdraw wear. I go with strongside.
I have read some comments that the Serpa design is considered by some to be unsafe, in that the release puts your finger on the trigger as the pistol clears the holster. I do not find that to be true. The holster release actually positions your trigger finger straight, and along the frame as the pistol clears the holster.
Drawing, and re-holstering are ergonomic, and intuitive. The pistol locks into the holster with an audible 'click' when reholstered.
Pistol is securely locked in the holster via the locking mechanism that engages the trigger guard. There is a molded groove to let your trigger finger find ther correct position for release and draw.
The release grip is essentially the proper safe grip with trigger finger straight along the frame.</div></div>
On all mine I've re-ajusted the holster grip friction screw (if that's the correct term) for each weapon they are dedicated to. Now they slip out very, very easy and yet don't rattle. I had to adjusted every one to my liking, but it's easy. I Played with angles until it felt natural, on either side.
Side note, As you know, they don't make one for a G-35 so I took one for a G-22 an added a home made extension with a drain hole. Then took a bike inter tube an placed it over the release paddle and tapped it into place. It does not touch the release paddle, while keeping stuff out of the release. After Using this style of holster long enough, releasing the 35 with the tube in place, is not a problem on the drop leg I made for field use.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Side note, As you know, they don't make one for a G-35 so I took one for a G-22 an added a home made extension with a drain hole. Then took a bike inter tube an placed it over the release paddle and tapped it into place. It does not touch the release paddle, while keeping stuff out of the release. After Using this style of holster long enough, releasing the 35 with the tube in place, is not a problem on the drop leg I made for field use. </div></div>
I have GOT to see a picture this holster. If you please....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Side note, As you know, they don't make one for a G-35 so I took one for a G-22 an added a home made extension with a drain hole. Then took a bike inter tube an placed it over the release paddle and tapped it into place. It does not touch the release paddle, while keeping stuff out of the release. After Using this style of holster long enough, releasing the 35 with the tube in place, is not a problem on the drop leg I made for field use. </div></div>
I have GOT to see a picture this holster. If you please....
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fast eddie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have GOT to see a picture this holster. If you please.... </div></div>
Sorry, don't have a camera, but I'll take it to ASM1's tomorrow, he'll photo and post, it for me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fast eddie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have GOT to see a picture this holster. If you please.... </div></div>
Sorry, don't have a camera, but I'll take it to ASM1's tomorrow, he'll photo and post, it for me.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
Gunfighter14e2, I must say your tenacity to argue your side of a losing argument is...well, interesting. I believe I started the criticism of this holster in this thread and then you took it to new levels of idiocy. The only thing proven in this thread is that it doesn't matter a lick what you or I think, people are gonna do stupid shit no matter how much we might try to help them. What you have done is reinforced in me the futility of even trying to help. Thanks for saving me a lot of time and fretting.
Gunfighter14e2, I must say your tenacity to argue your side of a losing argument is...well, interesting. I believe I started the criticism of this holster in this thread and then you took it to new levels of idiocy. The only thing proven in this thread is that it doesn't matter a lick what you or I think, people are gonna do stupid shit no matter how much we might try to help them. What you have done is reinforced in me the futility of even trying to help. Thanks for saving me a lot of time and fretting.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
Kind of on-off topic. What would be a good holster for a railed 5" 1911 without the light attached. Or with a light attached. Would like both. Want one for the range (without light) and one for home with light attached. Retention is really not that important although I would not want a trip or fall to have my pistol sliding on pavement or concrete.
Kind of on-off topic. What would be a good holster for a railed 5" 1911 without the light attached. Or with a light attached. Would like both. Want one for the range (without light) and one for home with light attached. Retention is really not that important although I would not want a trip or fall to have my pistol sliding on pavement or concrete.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3PER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunfighter14e2, I must say your tenacity to argue your side of a losing argument is...well, interesting. I believe I started the criticism of this holster in this thread and then you took it to new levels of idiocy. The only thing proven in this thread is that it doesn't matter a lick what you or I think, people are gonna do stupid shit no matter how much we might try to help them. What you have done is reinforced in me the futility of even trying to help. Thanks for saving me a lot of time and fretting. </div></div>
Tenacity,... I threw a dart to pick my avatar.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3PER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe I started the criticism of this holster in this thread</div></div>
I/We know that, and you feel the need to point that out is because you received no attention?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3PRE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only thing proven in this thread is that it doesn't matter a lick what you or I think, people are gonna do stupid shit no matter how much we might try to help them</div></div>
That is correct, and if they do stupid shit, it's their fault, not the mfg'ers. Tort Lawyers an their Lackey's, do not want folks owning up to their mistakes or stupid actions, as it lessens their slush funds greatly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3PRE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you have done is reinforced in me the futility of even trying to help.</div></div>
That is subjective, at best.
It matters little what we post for those that can't think for their self's. All anyone can do is point out all the options or differing views. Most evidence sounds convening to the unwashed on the surface, That's why Jury's are task to draw a conclusion, based on differing facts/views. I doubt many here believe/agree with all/many gun rag product reviews, yet they will take someones word w/o question just because they have a "Title". I know lot's of "Instructors" have been following this thread, as well as two mfg'er's,...lets just say it's been a eye opening read for some.
Training an instruction is required no matter the task, after being in any game long enough you either understand the element and can branch, or not.
If your into training for the money only, it's about getting them in, and moving them out as fast as you can. Ever wonder why with Uncle, an Uncles folks, you get recycled if you fail the course, but in the private world that never happens, an you still get a cert of attendance.
If everybody is passing, one of two things is happening (save good schools who spend whatever time is required with the student) either the course is lacking, or it's about money.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3PER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunfighter14e2, I must say your tenacity to argue your side of a losing argument is...well, interesting. I believe I started the criticism of this holster in this thread and then you took it to new levels of idiocy. The only thing proven in this thread is that it doesn't matter a lick what you or I think, people are gonna do stupid shit no matter how much we might try to help them. What you have done is reinforced in me the futility of even trying to help. Thanks for saving me a lot of time and fretting. </div></div>
Tenacity,... I threw a dart to pick my avatar.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3PER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe I started the criticism of this holster in this thread</div></div>
I/We know that, and you feel the need to point that out is because you received no attention?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3PRE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only thing proven in this thread is that it doesn't matter a lick what you or I think, people are gonna do stupid shit no matter how much we might try to help them</div></div>
That is correct, and if they do stupid shit, it's their fault, not the mfg'ers. Tort Lawyers an their Lackey's, do not want folks owning up to their mistakes or stupid actions, as it lessens their slush funds greatly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3PRE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you have done is reinforced in me the futility of even trying to help.</div></div>
That is subjective, at best.
It matters little what we post for those that can't think for their self's. All anyone can do is point out all the options or differing views. Most evidence sounds convening to the unwashed on the surface, That's why Jury's are task to draw a conclusion, based on differing facts/views. I doubt many here believe/agree with all/many gun rag product reviews, yet they will take someones word w/o question just because they have a "Title". I know lot's of "Instructors" have been following this thread, as well as two mfg'er's,...lets just say it's been a eye opening read for some.
Training an instruction is required no matter the task, after being in any game long enough you either understand the element and can branch, or not.
If your into training for the money only, it's about getting them in, and moving them out as fast as you can. Ever wonder why with Uncle, an Uncles folks, you get recycled if you fail the course, but in the private world that never happens, an you still get a cert of attendance.
If everybody is passing, one of two things is happening (save good schools who spend whatever time is required with the student) either the course is lacking, or it's about money.
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
I'm gonna try to address the real world use of holsters.
When I first got into LE (early part of 1974) most people used the border patrol style of holsters. It was fast granted but street cops spent much more time rolling around the floor wrestling drunks and other assorted bad guys then they did shooting bad guys, (I'll bet that is true today).
When that happens, uniform cops had a handle for such bandits to grab, that being the butt of the pistols. That was a problem.
Later we went to (what I thought was the most secure at the time) break front holsters. That was a great advantage over the border patrol but still had its problems. It was near impossible for someone else to get the gun from the holster from the back, but grabbing the revolver from the front made it easy if the strap didn't hold. If the bandit struct at the holster from the front, it wasn't that hard to knock the safety strap loose while grabbing the holster. Still much better then the border patrol type holster.
It was always a problem, finding a holster where the officer could draw quickly if needed, but difficult for the bandit to get the gun during a browl.
CQCs didn't come about until long after I retired. But in playing with a holster, it looks to me to be the best I've seen for the street cop. It's not that easy to find the release button if you're rolling around with a cop, but when the cop reaches for the pistol to draw, the release button is right there. When hit, the gun easily comes out. Yet its secure for more activities common to the work of street cops, like wrestling drunks and dopers.
The only thing I've found wrong with the CQC is Blackhawk doesn't make one for a 4 inch Smith. I have one for autos, and I have one for my 642 snubby. I like revolvers, ()after all real cops use revolvers.
I'm not in the LE (or any other) business any more but I still shoot. I do a lot of different style action pistol shooting. I'm and have stiffened up, not as fast as I use to be so I need all the help I can get when it comes to getting the gun out of holsters, but another rule that will get you kicked off the range is "dropping the gun". In the run-dodge-jump, crawling over and under obsticals if your gun falls out, you're sent home.
I need a fast "secure" holster. The CQC fits that goal.
Now comes people who for what ever reason, wont follow simple basic firearm safety rules, that want to ban the CQC holster.
Besides driving up the cost of our shooting with lawsuits, they are discriminating against us old has beens who can't move like we use to.
I'm gonna try to address the real world use of holsters.
When I first got into LE (early part of 1974) most people used the border patrol style of holsters. It was fast granted but street cops spent much more time rolling around the floor wrestling drunks and other assorted bad guys then they did shooting bad guys, (I'll bet that is true today).
When that happens, uniform cops had a handle for such bandits to grab, that being the butt of the pistols. That was a problem.
Later we went to (what I thought was the most secure at the time) break front holsters. That was a great advantage over the border patrol but still had its problems. It was near impossible for someone else to get the gun from the holster from the back, but grabbing the revolver from the front made it easy if the strap didn't hold. If the bandit struct at the holster from the front, it wasn't that hard to knock the safety strap loose while grabbing the holster. Still much better then the border patrol type holster.
It was always a problem, finding a holster where the officer could draw quickly if needed, but difficult for the bandit to get the gun during a browl.
CQCs didn't come about until long after I retired. But in playing with a holster, it looks to me to be the best I've seen for the street cop. It's not that easy to find the release button if you're rolling around with a cop, but when the cop reaches for the pistol to draw, the release button is right there. When hit, the gun easily comes out. Yet its secure for more activities common to the work of street cops, like wrestling drunks and dopers.
The only thing I've found wrong with the CQC is Blackhawk doesn't make one for a 4 inch Smith. I have one for autos, and I have one for my 642 snubby. I like revolvers, ()after all real cops use revolvers.
I'm not in the LE (or any other) business any more but I still shoot. I do a lot of different style action pistol shooting. I'm and have stiffened up, not as fast as I use to be so I need all the help I can get when it comes to getting the gun out of holsters, but another rule that will get you kicked off the range is "dropping the gun". In the run-dodge-jump, crawling over and under obsticals if your gun falls out, you're sent home.
I need a fast "secure" holster. The CQC fits that goal.
Now comes people who for what ever reason, wont follow simple basic firearm safety rules, that want to ban the CQC holster.
Besides driving up the cost of our shooting with lawsuits, they are discriminating against us old has beens who can't move like we use to.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Blackhawk CQC Serpa holster (review)
As you can see, tacticool/safe queen shit means nothing to me. May look like shit, but damn sure gets the job done. Back in my day things like that were called a, field expedient, an if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I've rolled in mud, sand, snow, water ect. with that thing, an never had a weapon or holster issue to date.
Would I buy a new one that was factory made, yet but only after this one goes to shit.
MY ASS DOES NOT LOOK BIG,...It's those loose fit jeans, as Julio would say.
As you can see, tacticool/safe queen shit means nothing to me. May look like shit, but damn sure gets the job done. Back in my day things like that were called a, field expedient, an if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I've rolled in mud, sand, snow, water ect. with that thing, an never had a weapon or holster issue to date.
Would I buy a new one that was factory made, yet but only after this one goes to shit.
MY ASS DOES NOT LOOK BIG,...It's those loose fit jeans, as Julio would say.
