Boeing 737 Max at it again

[sirhrmechanic]

The door responsible for temporary grounding of Boeing B737MAX9 fleet, has been recovered by NTSB – Aeropeep – Aircraft and Engineering Forum

aeropeep.com

 

[pmclaine]

I would not under any circumstances get on any aircraft operated by a Russian airline anytime soon. Especially Boeing or Airbus.

These were Tupelovs or some other Russians brand.

Everyone that got on the plane seemed to be carrying bread and strong cheese.

I deserved it for staying out all night on Finnish Independence Day and missing my flight back to Moscow.

Aeroflot was my only option to avoid an AWOL.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

These were Tupelovs or some other Russians brand.

Everyone that got on the plane seemed to be carrying bread and strong cheese.

I deserved it for staying out all night on Finnish Independence Day and missing my flight back to Moscow.

Aeroflot was my only option to avoid an AWOL.

Still Not as bad as a FUSSR helicopter….

Sirhr

 

[308pirate]

"Nowhere as many"? Well shit, that's reassuring! One is still too many in this game, as you damn well know. If you or I were involved in this mess, we'd be wearing out several pairs of boots doing gemba walks, because this rot is pervasive throughout the company and its suppliers, and if I heard anyone make a statement like yours, they'd be told to leave the building and stop by the front desk tomorrow for their personal things and some paperwork.

I'm glad that you were able to survive those flights, which of course was the overwhelming statistical likelihood. That happened because no one took the attitude of "nowhere as many" at any point during the development and production of those craft.

I get that you want to come off as cranky and dismissive of anyone's opinion, but it ain't working here. A single missed fastener or misdrilled hole was a defect that should have resulted in corrected action that ensued it never happened again. The fact that these stories remain in the news indicates cultural rot that will likely take years to correct, if ever.

Did anyone at the airline touch the fasteners that hold that door?

 

[308pirate]

I am located close to a rural airport. After watching some questionable maneuvers, I bring up FlightAware.
That certainly validates my observations. Complaining to the alphabet agencies does no good.
Like the guy with a new plane, just registered, comes out and let's his kids fly in circles around the airport.
I'll save my findings and share them with the family of the people one of these clowns kills.

FlightAware - Flight Tracker / Flight Status

Best Flight Tracker: Live Tracking Maps, Flight Status, and Airport Delays for airline flights, private/GA flights, and airports.

www.flightaware.com

Another non pilot moron who thinks he knows what's legal and safe.

Nobody cares what you think about anything

 

[308pirate]

Its called flying the pattern and probably doing touch and go's... its so insanely common, ESPECIALLY if you just got a new airplane, its hilarious you think they are doing something wrong and would report them to the FAA... The FAA guy probably rolled his eyes and though "this fucking idiot" and hung up on you...

You're responding to the king moron

 

[308pirate]

I am a pilot but also an A&P with a lot of hours working on B-737‘s but by all means I will defer to your google expertise…….

You're a pilot but can't understand the difference between having no divert options over water and having them over land?

Cause that's what I was talking about, refuting the idiot hobo who thinks anything malfunctioning on an aircraft is readon to ground it.

 

[308pirate]

I've worked for Boeing here in SC for a few years doing the CNC driller maintenance on the mid body assembly. Just when I thought the dysfunction level of the average government organization was the gold standard, Boeing is just as screwed up. Very top heavy management who's #1 priority is self preservation of their jobs. Quality product be damned. I saw a bunch of sketchy structural workmanship get a QC signoff.

I had no reason to ever fly before. After seeing what I have seen, I certainly don't have a reason to fly. I'll take a ship if I have to cross an ocean.

Every airplane ever made has had at least dozens of engineering deviations written and approved against it.

How are you qualified to decide what a sketchy structural joint is or is not? Don't answer that. I already know: you're not.

You were just another guy doing maintenance on some drills. Not someone with the knowledge to do structural loads on that particular airframe.

Maybe you and @E. Bryant can start your own airplane manufacturer and show everyone how it's done.

You know what I think? I think there should be a blue collar month at every fortune 500 company. All salary people go home for a month with pay and all hourly people get to run the company. At the end of that month, every blue collar guy who fucked up the job that they thought was "so easy" or "not important" gets fired.

That would be fun to watch.

 

[308pirate]

I bring up FlightAware.

And you stare at it without comprehending anything you see.

 

[E. Bryant]

Six straight replies without one meaningful thing said

 

[roostercogburn98]

Six straight replies without one meaningful thing said

Probably not a record by any means in this game

 

[NoDopes]

That NTSB lady said the green locking attachment is missing but not critical to the investigation. WTF? Its what holds door to the plane. Reports that a boy could hear whistling from the door before it flew off.

Perhaps they forgot to install the locking bolts in this side of the airplane.

 

[_Windrider_]

That NTSB lady said the green locking attachment is missing but not critical to the investigation. WTF? Its what holds door to the plane. Reports that a boy could hear whistling from the door before it flew off.

Perhaps they forgot to install the locking bolts in this side of the airplane.

The doors whistle all the time. That in and of itself is indicative of anything it’s just really fucking annoying. It usually gets fixed after a write up.

 

[308pirate]

Six straight replies without one meaningful thing said

Well sonny boy, there's the way you think things work and the way they really work.

 

[308pirate]

@_Windrider_ @rjacobs

Is there any reason for airline maintenance personnel to ever mess with this door plug/exit/whatever it is?

Seems several here hell bent on blaming Boeing or Spirit, ignoring (for whatever reason) that they have no control over what others do to their products once they are delivered.

 

[Mr.BR]

I've worked for Boeing here in SC for a few years doing the CNC driller maintenance on the mid body assembly. Just when I thought the dysfunction level of the average government organization was the gold standard, Boeing is just as screwed up. Very top heavy management who's #1 priority is self preservation of their jobs. Quality product be damned. I saw a bunch of sketchy structural workmanship get a QC signoff.

I had no reason to ever fly before. After seeing what I have seen, I certainly don't have a reason to fly. I'll take a ship if I have to cross an ocean.

If you only knew shody work floating the oceans of the globe.

 

[Threadcutter308]

@_Windrider_ @rjacobs

Is there any reason for airline maintenance personnel to ever mess with this door plug/exit/whatever it is?

Seems several here hell bent on blaming Boeing or Spirit, ignoring (for whatever reason) that they have no control over what others do to their products once they are delivered.

Seems like all the retention fasteners are buried behind (outboard of) interior trim panels. And.... that airline maintenance people probably wouldn't get in there unless there was a very good reason to do so. In hindsight, I guess it could be argued that there WAS a good reason to do so. AK had numerous pressurization warnings prior to failure that could be argued that they didn't take seriously enough. But, it was a brand new AC and it's looking like the four retention bolts weren't originally installed by Spirit/Boeing.

If true, it's a major fuck up on Boeing/Spirit's part.

Just a guess on my part.

I'm just glad no one was seriously injured or killed.

 

[anon]

The Emergency AD will send all of the carriers looking, if they have not already done so.

 

[E. Bryant]

Well sonny boy, there's the way you think things work and the way they really work.

I don't know why you're simping so hard for Boeing and Spirit, but various tirades in this thread have undermined the reputation you've built over the last half-dozen years as someone who knows manufacturing quality. Shitting on blue-collar workers? Really? Betcha the guys drilling the wallered-out holes in the bulkheads on Spirit's line have a better grasp of the issues than does the management of either company, which is why leading quality disciplines puts such a high value on going to the source of the problem and talking to such people.

 

[_Windrider_]

@_Windrider_ @rjacobs

Is there any reason for airline maintenance personnel to ever mess with this door plug/exit/whatever it is?

Seems several here hell bent on blaming Boeing or Spirit, ignoring (for whatever reason) that they have no control over what others do to their products once they are delivered.

I honestly don’t know. I don’t know enough about the 737 to speak intelligently on that. My gut tells me that there is a routine inspection that would be done but it wouldn’t be a daily or weekly. It would be more of a heavy maintenance cycle check. I mean you have to remove seats and wall panels to get to it and from the outside I don’t think you’d even see it as it’s skinned over. ( don’t quote me on that).

 

[308pirate]

I don't know why you're simping so hard for Boeing and Spirit, but various tirades in this thread have undermined the reputation you've built over the last half-dozen years as someone who knows manufacturing quality.

I don't simp for anyone. I know the reality of making airplanes better than most here.

Particularly better than those who have never been directly involved in making manufacturing and quality decisions about them. Being the "cnc drill maintenance dude" does not count.

PPS nobody here pays my wage so IDGAF what they might think about my professional ability.

Shitting on blue-collar workers? Really? Betcha the guys drilling the wallered-out holes in the bulkheads on Spirit's line have a better grasp of the issues than does the management of either company, which is why leading quality disciplines puts such a high value on going to the source of the problem and talking to such people.

After nearly 30 years in manufacturing, one of the things I've learned is that the grasp of most front line workers is limited to the very minute part they make/are involved in and extends nowhere else. Most of them have zero fucking clue about the underlying principles and development of what they are bolting together (they might know they how but have no idea of why) and zero fucking clue about what it is like to actually run a manufacturing business (since they've never had a part in doing so).

The ones who amuse me the most are the ones who say that only they are the important part of a manufacturing business. They speak from ignorance about everything else. Which is why I wish we had blue collar month. I go home with 4 weeks paid vacay and fire the guy who fucked up my job when I get back.

 

[candyx]

Quality Control was changed to DEI

"Screws Fall Out All the Time, the World's an Imperfect Place"​

John Bender

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Quality Control was changed to DEI

"Screws Fall Out All the Time, the World's an Imperfect Place"​

John Bender

Red Loctite

 

[gigamortis]

If you only knew shody work floating the oceans of the globe.

Oh, I'm sure, but at least I can float and swim. Most ships have some backup lifeboats should the worst happen. You don't get issued a parachute on commercial airliners.

 

[gigamortis]

Every airplane ever made has had at least dozens of engineering deviations written and approved against it.

How are you qualified to decide what a sketchy structural joint is or is not? Don't answer that. I already know: you're not.

You were just another guy doing maintenance on some drills. Not someone with the knowledge to do structural loads on that particular airframe.

Maybe you and @E. Bryant can start your own airplane manufacturer and show everyone how it's done.

You know what I think? I think there should be a blue collar month at every fortune 500 company. All salary people go home for a month with pay and all hourly people get to run the company. At the end of that month, every blue collar guy who fucked up the job that they thought was "so easy" or "not important" gets fired.

That would be fun to watch.

I have had the pleasure of working with some brilliant engineers in multiple locations through the years. I've learned a lot from them and they learned some efficient hands on ways of getting things accomplished from me. They were always asking me why I never pursued an engineering degree after they saw what I was capable of. We always bounced ideas off each other. Everything from prototype development to equipment upgrades. I've had very good working relationships with all these engineers because we worked together. We respected each other for our backgrounds and strengths. No one was barking orders and calling each other incompetent dumbasses.

I'm sure you are strong in the knowledge department, but your people skills are severely lacking. Companies like Boeing that are top heavy with salaried management of your exact attitude are always complaining that "wE cAn'T FinD anYoNe tHat waNts to wORk aNyMoRe" because you ran them all off with toxic management practices. 90% of people don't leave jobs because the work was too hard, they leave bad management.

What company do you work for and which location? I am only asking because 2-3 headhunters a week are trying to tease me out of retirement with some 6 figures/year offers and I certainly don't want to end up with a gig or contract dealing with you and your ilk. We could save each other some time by ensuring we never cross paths. I'm sure the feeling is mutual. You can reply here or DM me with the info.

 

[308pirate]

I have had the pleasure of working with some brilliant engineers in multiple locations through the years. I've learned a lot from them and they learned some efficient hands on ways of getting things accomplished from me. They were always asking me why I never pursued and engineering degree after they saw what I was capable of. We always bounced ideas off each other. Everything from prototype development to equipment upgrades. I've had very good working relationships with all these engineers because we worked together. We respected each other for our backgrounds and strengths. No one was barking orders and calling each other incompetent dumbasses.

I'm sure you are strong in the knowledge department, but your people skills are severely lacking. Companies like Boeing that are top heavy with salaried management of your exact attitude are always complaining that "wE cAn'T FinD anYoNe tHat waNts to wORk aNyMoRe" because you ran them all off with toxic management practices. 90% of people don't leave jobs because the work was too hard, they leave bad management.

What company do you work for and which location? I am only asking because 2-3 headhunters a week are trying to tease me out of retirement with some 6 figures/year offers and I certainly don't want to end up with a gig or contract dealing with you and your ilk. We could save each other some time by ensuring we never cross paths. I'm sure the feeling is mutual. You can reply here or DM me with the info.

Cool story bro.

The fact is that you came here to shit on how poorly you think Boeing airplanes are made. But you have no actual aircraft design or engineering knowledge nor any knowledge of Boeings specific design and manufacturing standards.

You were the cnc drill repair guy. That sounds impressive to those on the outside. But those with real aircraft mfg experience can see the bullshit.

You're just salty that you got called on it.

 

[gigamortis]

Cool story bro.

The fact is that you came here to shit on how poorly you think Boeing airplanes are made. But you have no actual aircraft design or engineering knowledge nor any knowledge of Boeings specific design and manufacturing standards.

You were the cnc drill repair guy. That sounds impressive to those on the outside. But those with real aircraft mfg experience can see the bullshit.

You're just salty that you got called on it.

You are still avoiding revealing where you work so that we both can ensure that we never have to put up with each other in the workplace.

 

[308pirate]

You are still avoiding revealing where you work

You're right. It's none of your business.

Maybe limit your comments to shit you actually know about in the future. And don't deflect.

 

[gigamortis]

Looks like my ignore list just got bigger.

 

[Moe Ron]

I’ve been an A&P mechanic for 45 years. Worked 25 years for American Airlines. Did overhaul maintenance on 727,757,767 and 777. Have years of experience with the doors on these aircraft. Entry doors, cargo doors, emergency exit doors etc.

Based on my experience and knowledge I feel confident in offering my blue collar opinion on this subject.

Rightee loosee leftee tightee

 

[E. Bryant]

After nearly 30 years in manufacturing, one of the things I've learned is that the grasp of most front line workers is limited to the very minute part they make/are involved in and extends nowhere else.

Those details about the "very minute post they make" are pure gold to a good leader, and understanding this is the basis to virtually any modern quality system.

If indeed you're deeply involved in the aerospace business and that statements such as the above reflect your actual feelings (as opposed to saying whatever necessary to maintaining edgelord status), then we should expect that the occurrences which lead to threads like this will keep happening.

 

[Longshot231]

 

[rjacobs]

@_Windrider_ @rjacobs

Is there any reason for airline maintenance personnel to ever mess with this door plug/exit/whatever it is?

Seems several here hell bent on blaming Boeing or Spirit, ignoring (for whatever reason) that they have no control over what others do to their products once they are delivered.

This thread has gone off the rails...

The answer is NO...

First off the 737 pressurization system is stupid... It knows if the computers are working and the outflow valves move... thats about it. If these plugs had sensors on them(I dont know if they did or not), they could have registered a "door light" which would cause maintenance to check them out... In this airplane, from what I know(my airline doesnt fly the NG-900 or Max-9), this "door" is buried behind the interior trim panels... a common line MX guy isnt going to get approval to down an airplane for 2-3 days to inspect the inside... The outside looks good i.e. flush, sealed, etc... then probably faulty sensor and send it on MEL...

As far as Spirit Aerosystems goes, they send an empty fuselage to Boeing. I have heard these plugs are installed when it leaves their factory. I dont know. Boeing installs the interior... I have HEARD that Boeing pulls this door at the factory, for whatever reason, again I dont know. I would MORE blame Boeing for this than Spirit.... HOWEVER I have seen pictures from United airplanes that show at least 3 bolts(likely 4) that werent tightened on the door in question at the bottom hinge. I dont think Boeing would PURPOSELY loosen those bolts so that points back to Spirit Aerosystems lacking QC...and then Boeing not inspecting a sub-contractors work and thus lacking QC... So ya'll see the quandry here and where to place blame....the sub-contractor who might have fucked up or Boeing who didnt QC the sub work and also fucked up... IMO the airline who ultimately takes delivery isnt going to strip an airplane down to bare metal and QC the work, they are trusting Boeing to do that... if that trust is lost and an airline suddenly feels they need to "C or D check" every new airplane thats millions of dollars in cost to the airline...who is going to tell Boeing to fuck off...

 

[E. Bryant]

I dont think Boeing would PURPOSELY loosen those bolts so that points back to Spirit Aerosystems lacking QC...and then Boeing not inspecting a sub-contractors work and thus lacking QC... So ya'll see the quandry here and where to place blame....the sub-contractor who might have fucked up or Boeing who didnt QC the sub work and also fucked up...

Ah yes, the ol' game of "inspecting in" quality. I'm sure someone was only another check or two away from achieving zero defects.

 

[308pirate]

Ah yes, the ol' game of "inspecting in" quality. I'm sure someone was only another check or two away from achieving zero defects.

Get a job at Boeing. Straighten them out.

 

[E. Bryant]

Undamaged plug exit on Alaska Max 9 had fasteners tightened during assembly

During assembly, Boeing personnel tightened six loose fasteners on a key structure around the right-hand plug exit directly across from the failed exit.

theaircurrent.com

Not at all indicative of systemic faults.

 

[E. Bryant]

Get a job at Boeing. Straighten them out.

Literally could not pay me enough. Like you, I know more than what's being shared here.

 

[308pirate]

Literally could not pay me enough.

I could not agree more

 

[sirhrmechanic]

It’s like the Babylon Bee writers are hanging out here stealing our best stuff!’

Panic Erupts On Flight As Captain Of Female Crew Announces That 'Everything's Fine'

U.S. — A scene of desperation and panic unfolded on a Delta Airlines flight after the captain of the all-female flight crew announced over the intercom that everything was fine.

babylonbee.com

Sirhr

 

[KYAggie]

And then there’s this, what could possibly go wrong……

FAA’s diversity push includes focus on hiring people with ‘severe intellectual’ and ‘psychiatric’ disabilities

Fox News Digital has learned the Federal Aviation Administration is pushing a hiring initiative that emphasizes employing people with "missing extremities" and other disabilities.

www.foxnews.com

 

[beetroot]

I'm finding to whole "blame everything on DEI" pretty cringe worthy, especially when it comes to aviation.

The Matt Walshs of the world have no idea what the Swiss cheese model is or understand human factors, and seems like they think maintenance errors are a new phenomenon.

I'm sure Boeing is employing some really geniuses at the moment (aviation Engineering is short staffed world wide) but a failure like this going undetected goes far deeper than employing a few less grumpy white guys.

 

[n2ishun]

<<insert annoyingly long story about shit>>

A long ass time ago I was a kid with a shiny new MSME out of college specializing in aerospace shit.
Went to work for Rockwell at the old place in Fullerton Ca.
They gave me a project which I completed and then after asking for something else more to do, I sat at my desk.
And sat.
And..........sat.
My daily rigamarole was playing Leisure Suit Larry on the Cray server, I shit you not.
One day I just walked out being so fucking mindlessly bored, and never went back.
They continued to pay me for near to 6 months not even noticing I had quit.
Unfortunately I did have to pay them back......but I do not for a second regret walking out.

Shitloads of details left out, but you get the idea.

 

[NoDopes]

I'm finding to whole "blame everything on DEI" pretty cringe worthy, especially when it comes to aviation.

Not everything, but it's already proven to have directly killed people.

 

[Mr.BR]

No surprise here

 

[UKDslayer]

Atlas Air Boeing 747-8 Catches Fire Mid-Air After Departing From Miami (VIDEO) | The Gateway Pundit | by Anthony Scott

An Atlas Air Boeing 747-8 cargo plane caught fire in mid-air shortly after leaving Miami International Airport on Thursday.

www.thegatewaypundit.com

 

[Threadcutter308]

Atlas Air Boeing 747-8 Catches Fire Mid-Air After Departing From Miami (VIDEO) | The Gateway Pundit | by Anthony Scott

An Atlas Air Boeing 747-8 cargo plane caught fire in mid-air shortly after leaving Miami International Airport on Thursday.

www.thegatewaypundit.com

I’m inclined to think this one isn’t on Boeing. It looks like the plane is 8 years old. There have probably been at least one overhaul/engine replacement since the carrier took posession of the 747. Those overhauls/replacements have been probably been done by someone other than Boeing.

 

[lash]

I'm finding to whole "blame everything on DEI" pretty cringe worthy, especially when it comes to aviation.

The Matt Walshs of the world have no idea what the Swiss cheese model is or understand human factors, and seems like they think maintenance errors are a new phenomenon.

I'm sure Boeing is employing some really geniuses at the moment (aviation Engineering is short staffed world wide) but a failure like this going undetected goes far deeper than employing a few less grumpy white guys.

This failure is unquestionably directly related to a QA issue on the line. No question. It’s nether design nor specifically employee type related.

 

[lash]

Ah yes, the ol' game of "inspecting in" quality. I'm sure someone was only another check or two away from achieving zero defects.

Let me paint a very real picture of reality in a manufacturing environment. Stolen from a good friend who knows and nailed it.

“It looks like the entire structure around the door is gone.
Structures guy inserts frame, adds three or four klekos to hold it in place. Goes to lunch.

Skin guy comes over and attached attaches skin panel.
Airframe fails pressurization test, so they glob on sealant until it passes.

Paint guy paints it.”

So yes, this was also a QA failure. Inspections, when related to safety items, are critical. You can bet your sweet ass that this particular failure mode will be over-inspected for a long time.

 

[rjacobs]

Atlas Air Boeing 747-8 Catches Fire Mid-Air After Departing From Miami (VIDEO) | The Gateway Pundit | by Anthony Scott

An Atlas Air Boeing 747-8 cargo plane caught fire in mid-air shortly after leaving Miami International Airport on Thursday.

www.thegatewaypundit.com

OMG its on fire... OMG its on fire...

Not really... It was, at that present moment, shitting out engine parts... And in the cockpit the pilots were also shitting out...shit...

Im sure I have time in that airplane.

OH NO THE DREADED 3 ENGINE APPROACH...

Hell you dont even have to turn the autopilot off and the airplane will autoland on 3 engines.

 

[Moe Ron]

$14M engine of F-35 is destroyed after engineer left FLASHLIGHT inside

A $14 million F-35 get engine was written off after a mechanic left a flashlight in the engine following repairs, and then switched the engine on. The engine appeared to be working normally, but then clanged.

www.dailymail.co.uk