PRS Talk Can we talk about the AG Cup?

[CV_Ag]

Everyone says it’s “boring to watch” but 10-20 years ago we had a pretty basic viewing of cars driving around in 500 circles and people whacking a little white ball 300 yards. It’s all subjective. I’d rather watch someone shoot. And guess what, it all has to start somewhere. What Tom is doing is new and thats what is needed to innovate new ideas and get others interested. Everyone seems to have such an awesome idea on how to improve something that hasn’t even happened yet and have very few details on what will actually happen. Stop your bitching and moaning and watch it, then next year you go do it better. Because Tom is the one going for it. It could be a huge flop, who knows. But at least it’s evolving into something new that’s never been done. I’m excited for it. Do I think I’ll ever get an invite? Not likely but that doesn’t make me less competitive to go try. It’ll be interesting to hear from all the shooters and get back stories on them and what not. Look at how podcasts have taken off in the recent years. Evolving and growing.

 

[samb300]

A lot of people say it’s boring to watch because...well, it is. At least in its current state. Who cares what NASCAR or golf looked like 2 decades ago on TV! Many of the videos don’t even have cameras on the target, so you’re watching 90-120 seconds of someone walking up to a prop and pulling the trigger 10 times with no idea what they’re dialing, holding for wind, what their wobble zone is, or even if they hit the target outside of listening for the spotted calling impact. If you think that’s the way to excite and attract new viewers, how well do you think it will work if the participants in this sport don’t even find it fun to watch?

Obviously we don’t know what Tom has in store for the AG Cup, and I’m excited for it. Especially to see a more unrestricted COF and challenges for the top shooters in the sport. But that doesn’t mean it’s “bitching” to suggest something like scope cams would take the viewing experience to the next level.

I agree that hearing shooters’ backstories and learning about their thoughts/techniques for approaching particular stages sounds cool. And for the similarities to golf, I think a real-time score leaderboard will be cool, especially since there will only be a couple squads and will essentially be shooting the same stages at the same time.

 

[kriller134]

Oh, it'll definitely be interesting.

Like a Texas star at 500 off of a tank trap interesting? I know it’s not really practical, but that would be kinda cool to watch.

 

[kthomas]

Curious to see how this develops and how the match goes, and who comes out on top.

As for the precision rifle shooting becoming a spectator sport, I just don't see it happening. We are a very small segment/niche of the shooting world. Most people watching will have no clues of the intricacies and difficulties of the sport, will not be able to relate, and as such most to all stages will have no meaning or interest to them. Even for us that shoot the sport, it's still pretty damn boring to watch.

Cool on Tom and AG to put this together, especially since it's something he's been wanting to do for a while. Will it hit its mark? Guess that's TBD. Good on him for going through with it though.

 

[Mormegil87]

If you want to make this sport even remotely interesting to watch on TV it'd have to be a match like Mammoth or the SAC. At least there's a human element to those matches. The team dynamic and living out in the conditions for a few days would be interesting. Think of the shows like Alone or Nake and Afraid but with shooting.

I agree with @samb300 that a scope cam would be cool for a stage or two. But there's no way I'd be hanging a scope cam behind my ZCO for an entire match. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a $3600 optic. Especially with $40k on the line.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Like a Texas star at 500 off of a tank trap interesting? I know it’s not really practical, but that would be kinda cool to watch.

Just dealing with a star at distance makes me cringe - both as a shooter and as an RO. Oof.

 

[Mordamer]

Just dealing with a star at distance makes me cringe - both as a shooter and as an RO. Oof.

I've always wanted to try a shooting star at distance. The logistics of resetting it might actually work at this match. I imagine there will be a lot of down time between each shooter. The star would have to be entirely built out of AR-500. It would be a lot of fun. I think a realistic engagement would be 300 yards with 8" plates on the star.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I've always wanted to try a shooting star at distance. The logistics of resetting it might actually work at this match. I imagine there will be a lot of down time between each shooter. The star would have to be entirely built out of AR-500. It would be a lot of fun. I think a realistic engagement would be 300 yards with 8" plates on the star.

I'm expecting very little down time between shooters, honestly.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I can't believe people in precision rifle want to douche up the sport with circus targets just like 3 gun.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It’s a cool idea for a niche match. Hopefully it happens every so often

As far as turning mainstream, not a chance. Zero, zilch, nada. You can’t compare it to any mainstream game or sport.

How entertaining do you think a casual non shooter would find it? You see a guy get into position, the gun recoils a little, then a target is hit.

Anyone who thinks this would be entertaining in a long term way to anyone who’s not a shooter, is giving into their individual interest of the game and not looking at it from the outside.

Again, awesome match. But it ain’t gonna push anything mainstream. Hell, just to get shooters a cash payout, they have to pony up $1k.

Also a side note......anyone who would be offended by a silhouette or using the term “shooter” wouldn’t give six shits about this match anyway.

Walmart stops selling ammo and the AG cup pulls silhouette......its all the same shit. Pandering to a soft society.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Everyone says it’s “boring to watch” but 10-20 years ago we had a pretty basic viewing of cars driving around in 500 circles and people whacking a little white ball 300 yards. It’s all subjective. I’d rather watch someone shoot. And guess what, it all has to start somewhere. What Tom is doing is new and thats what is needed to innovate new ideas and get others interested. Everyone seems to have such an awesome idea on how to improve something that hasn’t even happened yet and have very few details on what will actually happen. Stop your bitching and moaning and watch it, then next year you go do it better. Because Tom is the one going for it. It could be a huge flop, who knows. But at least it’s evolving into something new that’s never been done. I’m excited for it. Do I think I’ll ever get an invite? Not likely but that doesn’t make me less competitive to go try. It’ll be interesting to hear from all the shooters and get back stories on them and what not. Look at how podcasts have taken off in the recent years. Evolving and growing.

Totally apples to orange comparison. Comparing cars to shooters/bullets ain’t the right tree to bark at.

You like shooting because you’re a shooter and a fan. Don’t mistake that for how the general public would be interested.

Sometimes a hobby is just that, a hobby. And it won’t be anything else......and that’s perfectly ok.

 

[WATERWALKER]

Firstly, let me start by saying this is a badass idea. This is like Texas Hold’em on the gun range. Go big or not at all.

The people watching this sport are fellow shooters & people w/ an interest in shooting. Very few people who’re not into shooting will find this appealing. As for going mainstream? I’m not convinced it’ll happen but wish the best of luck to all involved.

Other things that may interest the public will play on the human side such as personal stories. A side match for best 5 shot group at 200 M may be appealing to outsiders as well. It would also behoove commentators to discuss positions & gear along w/ why a shooter is doing what he does.

We’re probably not going to gain any new shooters if you start talking about how much money we burn in rifles, optics & other ancillary gear & ammo.

I agree that it’s pretty weak not to call a “shooter” a shooter & to not have silhouettes on the COF. You’re not going to change the minds of those who don’t support 2A by not shooting humanoid targets.

 

[Meety Peety]

I think it's an interesting idea, but I am also interested in this type of shooting. Take this same concept and apply it to a trap shoot, 3 gun match, even hunting (there are a bunch of hunting shows already) and my interest level goes way down. Would I watch it for a while, sure.. but would it hook me in and catch my interest, not too sure. I think those disciplines are cool and I enjoy participating in them from time to time, but without a deep appreciation for all of the subtle technical aspects of the discipline, I think it would appeal to me less, because I'm not relating to it as much as I would be if I was really into that style of shooting and knew what to look for.

Just a side note, I'm thinking the targets better be awfully small because I just dont see average joe trap shooter who happens to actually be watching the outdoor channel (or whatever channel is airing this) watching 8 guys in a row clean a barricade stage and really knowing and appreciating what it takes to do so. It would probably be boring for most people, even shooters. Like watching golf if everyone was getting a hole in one.

 

[CV_Ag]

Just a side note, I'm thinking the targets better be awfully small

I’d say so.....

 

[Jts2581]

Have you heard about this match? What are your thoughts on this becoming a regularly occurring style of event? What do you think it will do for the PRS/NRL competition scene?


AG Cup Facebook page

When 3 gun had 3 Gun Nation televised and was running a regular scheduled shows, 3 gun was at its pinnacle. I’m sure this will help create some interest as well. Hopefully there will be more to come in the future. It introduces a ton of new folks to the shooting sports that may have been firearm enthusiasts for years, but have never known that the shooting sports exist. It will def be a good thing IMO

 

[WATERWALKER]

I think the AG Cup should’ve been scheduled well in advance & probably a month after the PRS / NRL Finales. It would’ve given competitors a chance to recharge their batteries, etc. I also think participation of the top shooter’s would’ve been higher overall.

The advertising & marketing campaign wouldn’t have been rushed & greater awareness of the sport could be raised. After all, aren’t the goals to spread awareness of the sport to attract new & more shooters?

I’d hate to think that a poorly executed A&M campaign could destroy the program’s goals before it ever got off the ground. I’d hate to see time, money & momentum wasted simply because of undue haste. More time & consideration should’ve been devoted to this project before it kicked off.

I absolutely wish the best for this comp. But, by rushing it to fruition you have to ask whether you’re helping the sport or hurting it w/ a poorly thought out campaign.

 

[Jts2581]

Well s

I'll attempt to clarify my thoughts on it. I like the concept. I have no problem with the idea of exclusivity. If I have a party at my house and invite certain people, and don't invite some others, that's my prerogative. I think Tom did a good job of setting parameters for who he chose and why.

Giving the top shooters an opportunity to make some money is fine too. They worked hard to get to the top and I would wager, have probably spent more money on their hobby than other competitors. It would be easy to say, "well what about the little guy? Where's his chance to make money?" Couple thoughts on that: 1. Life's not fair, deal with it. 2. Shoot better. Get something off the prize table. (don't immediately go out and sell it though...diff topic for diff time)

I do think the coverage by Shooting USA will help promote precision long range competitions. We're probably never going to see tactical style shooting sports on ESPN or any major television station for that matter, but every little bit helps. The idea is to hopefully bring in some larger sponsors that could support the matches in general. It could be great for the sport if a huge company stepped up to support the series in general. Think Ford Motors, Lucas Oil, Monster Energy, etc.

I understand why some people don't like this idea. Those folks don't like PRS/NRL style competitions for their own reasons. That's fine. We don't all have to be on the same page as long as we're still reading the same book. I would title that book, Long Range Shooting, and inside are a lot of different chapters. Everything from 22LR, F-Class, CMP events, practical field/sniper matches, multi-day adventure style, PRS, NRL, ELR and now the AG Cup.

Bottom line for me right now is, I'll be there. I'm likely helping to sponsor the event in some small way. Even if it's just to take pictures. I just want to be a part of anything that revolves around shooting stuff at far distances.

Well said sir!! There will always be naysayers. I think it’s gonna be rad. It’s good for the top guys to finally be able to make some money. If you want to get an invite, train more and win matches. And if you don’t, well that’s fine too. But I’m sure Tom and crew are busting their butts to put on a world class event. Im sure it will be just that.

 

[DisplacedTexan]

I’d say so.....

View attachment 7146684

Lots of money saved on steel I'd say...

 

[DisplacedTexan]

I think the AG Cup should’ve been scheduled well in advance & probably a month after the PRS / NRL Finales. It would’ve given competitors a chance to recharge their batteries, etc. I also think participation of the top shooter’s would’ve been higher overall.

The advertising & marketing campaign wouldn’t have been rushed & greater awareness of the sport could be raised. After all, aren’t the goals to spread awareness of the sport to attract new & more shooters?

I’d hate to think that a poorly executed A&M campaign could destroy the program’s goals before it ever got off the ground. I’d hate to see time, money & momentum wasted simply because of undue haste. More time & consideration should’ve been devoted to this project before it kicked off.

I absolutely wish the best for this comp. But, by rushing it to fruition you have to ask whether you’re helping the sport or hurting it w/ a poorly thought out campaign.

After the finales it gets cold and some of us hating shooting in the cold. Or being outside when it's cold. Fuck the cold.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I think it's an interesting idea, but I am also interested in this type of shooting. Take this same concept and apply it to a trap shoot, 3 gun match, even hunting (there are a bunch of hunting shows already) and my interest level goes way down. Would I watch it for a while, sure.. but would it hook me in and catch my interest, not too sure. I think those disciplines are cool and I enjoy participating in them from time to time, but without a deep appreciation for all of the subtle technical aspects of the discipline, I think it would appeal to me less, because I'm not relating to it as much as I would be if I was really into that style of shooting and knew what to look for.

Just a side note, I'm thinking the targets better be awfully small because I just dont see average joe trap shooter who happens to actually be watching the outdoor channel (or whatever channel is airing this) watching 8 guys in a row clean a barricade stage and really knowing and appreciating what it takes to do so. It would probably be boring for most people, even shooters. Like watching golf if everyone was getting a hole in one.

Part of the problem with making precision rifle interesting to non shooters is going to be target size.

No one wants to see people boringly clean stages and at the same time, missing a lot of shots is going to make it less interesting.

This is always gonna be a niche hobby. Comparisons to nascar, golf, etc are way, way off base.

Shooting clays you see the clays fly and explode. 3 gun you see guys running around and such. You’re not gonna be able to introduce that type of stuff into prs without making it a shit show. Just how it is.

As far as marketing goes, I literally got more likes on a picture of a fly on a guy’s ass while he was shooting than a lot of the AG cup’s posts get on FB.

I like the idea of the AG cup, but it’s got more than a tough road ahead to become anything more than another match that only people in the community care about.

 

[WATERWALKER]

After the finales it gets cold and some of us hating shooting in the cold. Or being outside when it's cold. Fuck the cold.

I get what you’re saying about the cold, but it really doesn’t get cold in the south. I was born & raised in the north & I now live in SW Texas. The locals define cold as anything below 70* F. I’ve come to realize that “cold” is subjective.

If this comp was held in November or December w/ a venue in south Texas I’m sure the weather would be decent.

I’m not trying to be contentious; I’m only trying to offer an opinion that may be of use. I believe in promoting the sport & taking it as far as it’ll go w/ the rest of the world. The more people are interested in shooting sports the better. The last thing I want to see is this event hastily put together & flop. Nobody wins in that scenario.

 

[DisplacedTexan]

Sorry I was going for comic relief.

 

[Danattherock]

Anything Tom Fuller does is done right. That's just who he is, and what Armageddon Gear as a company is known for. Aside from that, he is just a hell of a nice guy. He could make a living selling shit flavored snow cones.

As for the AG Cup not effectively bringing in new shooters and growing the sport, I call BS on that one. I got into PRS three years back and have shot 15-20 two day matches and countless club matches since. I have shot guns my whole life, but it was watching a YouTube video of Matt Gervais shooting the PRS Finale in California that got me into PRS.

I bought a RPR in 6.5 creedmoor soon after, started taking long range classes, buying rifles, barrels, optics, and paying match fees all over the southeast. I have been holding left edge ever since. Thats the very nature of a sport growing, new folks like myself shooting and supporting the industry. And having one heck of a good time doing it.


Dan
NC

 

[lte82]

I don’t know that it’s going to appeal to a broad audience, but I think it will be something that helps new shooters that are on the fence show up to some club matches or encourage current shooters to get better so they can also get an invite to one. Either way, I like the concept and I don’t think there is any way it’s going to “hurt the sport”.

 

[mkollman74]

I actually started a thread on this in the competition announcement forum a while back. I think Tom's got the right idea. The match isn't about PRS or NRL, but trying to grow the sport and bring more (positive) attention to precision rifle competition.

Uh, no...

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Uh, no...

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[mkollman74]

What's that supposed to mean?

Its supposed to mean that I disagree with the conclusions of the post I quoted...

 

[Covertnoob5]

Its supposed to mean that I disagree with the conclusions of the post I quoted...

How do you figure?

 

[mkollman74]

How do you figure?

Its not clear to me that it will, "bring more (positive) attention to precision rifle competition"

 

[hlee]

Unless they're running a 20 stage match, one stage per day, and stuffing the competitors in a bunkhouse built for 10 for the duration of the match, they won't be able to drive any viewership.

You're at a match, watching it in person, and all you can think about is; jeez this squad is too big, the squad ahead is making the whole match drag, its hot/cold/windy/rainy, wow this guy shoots slow, when is lunch, I've gotta pee, newbs gonna newb lol, etc. Now televise that. Boring AF.

But, take the "ink masters" approach and broadcast 10 minutes of action and 30 minutes of drama and you have a show.

 

[hlee]

I can't believe people in precision rifle want to douche up the sport with circus targets just like 3 gun.

Did you ever find where your 3 gunners at?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Did you ever find where your 3 gunners at?

The thread?

 

[Tx_Aggie]

But, take the "ink masters" approach and broadcast 10 minutes of action and 30 minutes of drama and you have a show.

That's a pretty good idea.

 

[SD Carpenter]

Kinda like how top shot was lol ?

 

[earthquake]

For those of us without cable, and don't watch TV, will this be viewable on the interwebs?

 

[sbernier123]

In my opinion, the technology won't be pushed forward if the current versions aren't implemented and iterated on now. I agree that they're bulky and obstruct clarity, which is why no one (aside from Derek Duncan?) uses them in matches. But watching as an "average Joe" that the AG Cup is marketing to, that video footage is AWESOME. If everyone has to use them - hell, maybe for only 5 or 10 of the 20 stages - then everyone will learn to adapt to them. Clearly in that video above Dave Preston has no issues crushing that stage approximately 40 seconds faster than I've ever done it without a scope cam.

Maybe the AG Cup can still implement a scope cam this year. Have each shooter shoot ONE stage of their choosing with it on. Or select a few willing to try it out on a couple stages to give a head-to-head comparison between competitors. Or give any shooter willing to use the scope-cam a bonus 15 second buffer on each stage they use it. I dunno, there are lots of options better than not trying.

So many sports now have such dynamic camera angles, especially the POV cams in auto racing. Why can't the shooting sports adopt something better than what we're currently doing?

And as mentioned by someone above, as good as the NRL marketing is, the match videos aren't exciting. I do really like the "loadout" graphics they use that show the person's name, rifle build, caliber, bags, and impact/miss counter. But I end up fast forwarding through the majority of it because it's just footage of someone pulling the trigger over and over.

agree with a lot of this. I have actually really been enjoying the NRL videos lately. I think mostly because PRS is doing basically nothing when it comes to documenting the actual matches. Maybe a random shooter making a video or two. But I agree there are ways to improve the quality. The NRL has been doing a lot of things really well in these videos (graphics, shooter bios, hit counts) but I'd really like to see a view of the target to see what the round is actually doing. Maybe some drone footage could be incorporated above the target so scope cams can be avoided. Overall I think any content is good content. Especially in such a niche sport. I wish there was more content available on matches etc.

 

[Covertnoob5]

CONGRATS @JC Steel on the win!!!!! Huge win for sure.

 

[BoomerC]

I’d like to see the scores.

Will they be posted anywhere?

 

[CV_Ag]

 

[Aviatorfreak]

I hadn’t seen any buzz or interest in the “AG” cup. I have spoke to a lot of regional guys and they could really care less about it. I guess anything is good for the sport but this just didn’t get any coverage or buzz like some thought it would. Since it was only a select handful of shooters it really didn’t interest 95percent of the prs world

 

[22-Dasher]

Jake is a smart man and great shooter!! Slowest overall time but made sure to get the hits. Good tactic, it worked and he got the win! Congrats!

 

[Dthomas3523]

I hadn’t seen any buzz or interest in the “AG” cup. I have spoke to a lot of regional guys and they could really care less about it. I guess anything is good for the sport but this just didn’t get any coverage or buzz like some thought it would. Since it was only a select handful of shooters it really didn’t interest 95percent of the prs world

Reserving my opinion until after the spiced up for tv version is out.

Hopefully will make for exciting video.

 

[mkollman74]

video embedded above.

I personally think it's going to be the same 20 people every single year. I'm not sure how that helps the industry or the sport, but the TV coverage this will get could bring new shooters.

If the industry companies support this financially, will they stop supplying products for the prize tables? (prize tables is a whole other discussion)

I don't know...guess I'm still developing my thoughts on it.

I predict there will be minimal to no impact from any TV coverage. I am sorry, but I am a shooter, and I would not watch others shoot on TV. I seriously doubt the ability of this format to advance the sport. Hopefully, I am wrong...

 

[lte82]

If the TV version splices in interviews, shows stage descriptions, and shows shooters & targets as its being shot, it would be pretty sweet. I also think some of the smaller shops like Foundation, Altus, and Impact are going to get lots of new customers out of it if they get a little exposure on air. They produce arguably some of the best stuff money can buy and have grown quickly without any sponsorships or major marketing efforts.

 

[SD Carpenter]

If the TV version splices in interviews, shows stage descriptions, and shows shooters & targets as its being shot, it would be pretty sweet. I also think some of the smaller shops like Foundation, Altus, and Impact are going to get lots of new customers out of it if they get a little exposure on air. They produce arguably some of the best stuff money can buy and have grown quickly without any sponsorships or major marketing efforts.

So if they pretty much do how the NRL does their episodes would be great

 

[Dthomas3523]

If the TV version splices in interviews, shows stage descriptions, and shows shooters & targets as its being shot, it would be pretty sweet. I also think some of the smaller shops like Foundation, Altus, and Impact are going to get lots of new customers out of it if they get a little exposure on air. They produce arguably some of the best stuff money can buy and have grown quickly without any sponsorships or major marketing efforts.

The only way they get business is if it brings new shooters in.

Hardly anyone who is already into precision rifle doesn’t know about impact, foundation, or Altus.

We are super niche and the challenge is growing the actual niche, not the brands within it.

 

[blbennett1288]

Hardly anyone who is already into precision rifle doesn’t know about impact, foundation, or Altus.

Not sure what all you classify as under precision rifle, but they might gain more interest from the hunting crowd with Impact and Lone Peaks Titanium offerings, and Foundations new hunter stock

 

[Dthomas3523]

Not sure what all you classify as under precision rifle, but they might gain more interest from the hunting crowd with Impact and Lone Peaks Titanium offerings, and Foundations new hunter stock

I personally don’t know many hunters that will spend $1700 on an action who aren’t already in the loop.

 

[lte82]

The only way they get business is if it brings new shooters in.

The firearms industry is dominated by two markets, hunting and mil/ LE, and that's where the big money will always be. PRS/NRL is succeeding and I think will continue to succeed as long as they keep some of the cross over application to both of those, and I think the companies that have become successful because of the sport will need to also cross over to remain successful as the PRS market slows in growth and become saturated with PRS oriented products. I think new shooters and cross over into the hunting/mil/le/weekend warrior market go hand in hand. If it remains a niche market that only appeals to those doing it, it will die like high power.

 

[Lowlight]

Tasted like a Nothing Burger,

No buzz, the hype fell short, nothing stated prior resonated.

This morning I look at it on FB, around 9:30 AM 135 likes, 8 comments and 2 shares, my daughter gets more posting a silly picture with her horse.

I feel sorry for the companies that invested as the ROI has to be a monster loss. maybe TV will make up for it, but I doubt it as the channel is not quite mainstream enough to give it a big enough bump.


No story to promote, no drama to follow (and by drama doesn't have to be negative) it was not compelling at all.

The stages would have to be something pretty spectacular to make anyone stand up and take notice.