Carbon ring removal

[ReaperDriver]

Where did you take that picture at? Is that at the case mouth junction? That's what it looks like to me. Let me know.

Yes. I believe so. If I have my chamber terminology correct, the upper part of the previous photo is the end of the neck area, and the part just below the lip in the bottom is the freebore before you see the lands and grooves (leade?). Here are some additional snaps. This is from an AI-AT .260 Bartlein barrel (Gradous) with about 1800-2000ish rounds through.

Before attacking the Carbon ring

After soaking the chamber with a nylon 9mm brush wrapped in a patch soaked with Boretech C4 Carbon remover for about 45 min:

I bought some CLR in case the C4 didn't get it out. But the Boretech C4 worked like a champ. I just left the patch/brush w/ C4 in the chamber for a while and then gave it a few twists by hand, patched it out and then re-scoped it and viola!

 

[ReaperDriver]

And BTW, @Frank Green Thank you for jumping in these threads and sharing your knowledge and expertise. It's very appreciated. I always learn a lot. Please keep it coming!

 

[jbell]

I have been using CLR with the last 8 barrels I've owned. The only issues I have seen is truning Cerakote of little off color. I use my bore scope with every cleaning and have yet to find any pitting or etching in any of my barrels.
I sincerely respect Frank's findings as some of these barrels are his and he is much more of an expert than I am. However, i think its the process in which you use CLR that may or may not cause to issues.
I ususally only clean every 100 rounds unless I'm going to let the rifle sit a while. I use CLR as the very first step in my cleaning process just to scrub the throat and then run it down the barrel a few time to loosen everything up using a combination of the aggressive pellets and patches, I never use a drill! I follow with Patchout Wipeout, brushing, another round of Patchout wipe out and then dry patches. Check with borescope and repeat if carbon still exist. Only on one barrel using this regiment have I ever had to go back for a second round.
My point is I never leave CLR in my bore for more than 10 to 15 mins. and I don't neglect cleaning on a regular basis.
I think some of the issues outlined in this thread are caused by leaving CLR for extended periods of time like cleaning Ti suppressors.
Until I see my accuracy fall off or some other issue I will continue with my cleaning process and will include CLR as it does a fantastic job on carbon rings.

Based on your experience it seems like dwell time is critical, which seems logical. To echo what Frank originally said if you have a process that is working, which you clearly do, then stick with it. Your process is very similar to how I used to use Sweets 7.62 years ago when I was shooting hot 6.5-284 & 243 with heavy bullets that would copper up a 3/4 life barrel. Sweets can be harmful to barrel steel if used improperly as can CLR, but when used properly they can produce great results. Sounds like you have it figured out with the CLR.

 

[jh26]

My 2 cents at this point and I am still learning a lot. I am not sure if I am glad I have a bore scope or if now its just something else to fuck with!!! Here are my pics at 3000 rounds cleaning every 300-500 rounds. The last pic is titled clean, is that clean enough????
Gun never ever really lost much accuracy. My best ever 4x4's were in the 3's and 4's early on in barrel life. At 3000 rounds the gun is now shooting in the 5's. I was confident that the barrel was just shot out since 3000 rds on a 260 is what MOST folks say things drop off. My speed has not dropped off, I am running 2832fps with 139 Scenars and H4350 and cannot honestly say if accuracy fell off or I just have not shot as much. Will find out soon enough once new barrel is installed. Along the way I used Hoppe's, Bore Tech products, Wipe Out and Butches Bore shine, as well as Nylon bore brushes.
At the 3000 round mark, nothing I used even made a dent on the Carbon other than CLR......with a new barrel on order I had nothing to lose. I also had to use a smaller bush and backstroke the living shit out of it. After some posts here and lots of research and questions, I will never put the gun away without running some Hoppes down the bore if the gun will sit, and feel like there is no reason if you clean properly not to clean every 200rds to keep the Carbon in check. I plan on using Bore Tech products and if I see carbon getting a little heavy, Rem40x and no brushes and if needed it will be a bronze brush.
One last note that I can add, is early on I would clean and it would take a few shots to settle back in and for the speed to get back on track. Somewhere around the 2000rd mark, I would clean and no shift in POI and speed never fell off.

 

[Frank Green]

Hey Frank, is there any chance you could post some pics of pitting versus carbon build up and maybe even describe what to look for and how to decipher the difference between the two when looking at it with a borescope. We see these pics of what people call pitting but often it has a more raised look to it and looks more like carbon buildup than actually pitting. If you could possibly give a quick lesson on what to look for and how to tell the difference it would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry not the greatest picture....but this is the real early stages of pitting in a bore of a barrel.

 

[Frank Green]

Again sorry the pic's are not the greatest. Here is what a new throat looks like and one that has 14k+ rounds on it. The used barrel was a accuracy ammunition test barrel I got back from Sierra. Up to the 14k+ rounds it was holding 1/2moa. Caliber was 308w and 1-8 twist, 5R rifling. The black spec's are actually little areas of metal that has broken/flaked out of the bore and then they get filled with carbon etc....

 

[Lightning8]

Carbon Ring formed in my custom 6XC. Can hardly close bolt on round. Bore scope confirmed ring so I immediately came to this thread. I appreciate the ability to use this thread to remove and prevent in future. Thanks for all the input by Frank and others.

 

[Brux]

I just got finished cleaning a Tikka 308 that a guy brought over. Around 600 rounds on it. I borescoped it before he left so I could tell him what to expect. I cleaned it with Butch's first and then Boretech and it still looked like shit. I then cleaned it with Remington 40x and it came out perfect except the barrel was ate up super bad with pits. I do not use CLR. He came and got it and I showed it to him and said this is from not cleaning your rifle. He said he had never cleaned the rifle and I believe it. It was so bad that I told him to rebarrel it.

 

[carbonbased]

@Frank Green or anyone else:

I use Wipe Out, and I see the manufacturer also makes Carb Out. Thoughts on Carb Out?

I saw one guy used it page 1 of this thread, but no reactions to its use.

 

[Sheldon N]

I think there's a big difference between the effect of wet patches vs immersion/soaking. I recently picked up a barrel that was very dirty, had not been cleaned in a long time. I used Boretech Eliminator and C4 first, then followed with CLR wet patches (I don't like doing CLR regularly because of how strong it is) and while it got some of the carbon out there was still quite a bit of fouling with layers of copper embedded in the carbon.

Finally just plugged the barrel and did a 1 hour soak with 1:1 vinegar and hydrogen peroxide. I kept it to an hour because I know any acid can still be harmful if left long enough. The 1 hour did it and absolutely ALL the carbon came out with a few brushes, including all the copper that was attached to the carbon.

Obviously filling the barrel and letting it soak is going to be much more effective than the small amount of residual product that comes with wet patching because of how much solution is there to work on the carbon - whether that's C4 or the dip or whatever. As Frank pointed out the effect of soaking in a strong acid can be detrimental to the metal on a barrel. Both CLR and vinegar are acidic, CLR being more so than a 1:1 solution of vinegar/peroxide.

 

[Defender3]

I was shooting factory rounds in my 300PRC and noted higher than normal velocities on the labradar. The 4th shot I pierced a primer so I took the rifle off the line. I got home and took the barrel off the AI and found a factory round would not drop freely into the chamber. My bore scope confirmed I had a significant carbon build up in a barrel with 354rds. I have been using bore eliminator and an occasional nylon brush, but clearly I need to up up my cleaning regiment.

I try and use my bore scope sparingly but I broke it out to find not only was their carbon in the first 6 or so inches of the barrel, I had a nice carbon ring. Anyways, I ordered some bore eliminator C4 and JB paste and until it arrived, used a gentle cleaning cycle and soaked the barrel overnight in kroil.

The C4, and a kroil soaked patch with some JB, took care of the ring and carbon, so a factory round will now drop into the chamber un-impeded.

Pics show the pierced primer and the small piece of the cup that got blown back into the AIs bolt assembly.

 

[BigKev72]

Many years of fullbore match taught me to regularly clean my rifles. We used to clean between ranges even. All this new “don’t clean them” mentality is insane to me. I’m a big fan of many patches doped up with sweets between ranges and a good brush at the end of the match. Leave it to soak in the barrel overnight, push through patches until it’s clean and leave it for a few days with hoppes in it. Push a couple of patches through it before shooting and repeat. Never had problems fucking up barrels and never had problems with excessive wear on barrels either.
However, you do you and enjoy your shooting.

 

[Packfan]

I read this thread carefully as I had a carbon ring form on a fairly new Bergara. I had been using Hoppe's Elite and Sweets for routine cleaning. I had to use JB to remove the ring and it appeared to work well. I made a number short of passes in the throat with a JB soaked patch and then a couple of full length passes. I am going to shift to Boretech Eliminator for routine cleaning as I have heard it is pretty effective at both carbon and copper.

Frank mentioned not pulling a brush back through the muzzle. He said: "I'll use a brush once in a while but only push the brush breech to muzzle and all the way out. I unscrew the brush before pulling the cleaning back thru and out. I don't drag the brush over the crown!"

I only use nylon brushes after thoroughly flushing the barrel with patches, but I have been messing up by pulling the brush back through the muzzle when brushing. Learning never stops!

 

[ReaperDriver]

I read this thread carefully as I had a carbon ring form on a fairly new Bergara. I had been using Hoppe's Elite and Sweets for routine cleaning. I had to use JB to remove the ring and it appeared to work well. I made a number short of passes in the throat with a JB soaked patch and then a couple of full length passes. I am going to shift to Boretech Eliminator for routine cleaning as I have heard it is pretty effective at both carbon and copper.

Frank mentioned not pulling a brush back through the muzzle. He said: "I'll use a brush once in a while but only push the brush breech to muzzle and all the way out. I unscrew the brush before pulling the cleaning back thru and out. I don't drag the brush over the crown!"

I only use nylon brushes after thoroughly flushing the barrel with patches, but I have been messing up by pulling the brush back through the muzzle when brushing. Learning never stops!

Just FYI...... I didn't find the Boretech eliminator to do much on carbon. It was great on Copper though. I use the Boretech Carbon C4 and it works really well on carbon. It does a good job on the carbon ring if you let a well soaked patch around an oversize nylon brush sit in the chamber for about 30 min.

 

[Defender3]

Just FYI...... I didn't find the Boretech eliminator to do much on carbon. It was great on Copper though. I use the Boretech Carbon C4 and it works really well on carbon. It does a good job on the carbon ring if you let a well soaked patch around an oversize nylon brush sit in the chamber for about 30 min.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said about the C4.

 

[carbonbased]

Ok, this just occurred to me. I’m slow.

Thoughts on using the patch loops? Never used them. I suppose one could use the patch coming and going, but with a patch loop the reversing wouldn’t have much pressure on the bore. Might be dirty, too.

And if anyone has thoughts on Wipe Out, let me know.

 

[Baron23]

Very late to the party, but may I suggest bore mops instead of a patch on a jag for soaking throat with C4 and similar.

It will stay in place, you can pull it back out, and it will absorb and hold a fair amount of cleaner

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I've left tumbled brass in CLR, then left the brass in the media overnight and gotten a very nice Olive Camo-Like coating. It holds up through resizing, and copper jacketed bullets acquire a similar tone. Comes off fine with corncob.

I wonder what this might be doing for carbon fouling, and whether this might turn out to be a more convenient way fror employing CLR as a carbon cleaner.

Greg

 

[JAS-SH]

Cleaning often with carbon remover solves that problem. A bit late for you at this point.

Do not use an abrasive in that area unless you know exactly how to do it.

My recommendation is to get two "small" chamber mops and two .22 bore mops. Two each because you will use up the first two. Bore Tech sells them. You want the bore mop to be oversize for HMR (,22) so that it will not go in too far into the barrel. The chamber mop should also not go in very far. That one will clean the neck area. Also, get get some Bore Tech Carbon Remover.

Get a chamber cleaning rod. The Dewey 9-inch rifle/pistol one with the red handle will work great.

Soak the front half of the bore mop in Carbon Remover and I mean soaked. insert as far as it will go then turn it clockwise a number of times while still trying to push it further in. Remove and let the carbon remover sit in there for 2-3 hours. Clean the mop and repeat. Do this until the mop comes out clean. Then do the same with the chamber brush. Once everything is clean use the new mops with no carbon cleaner to get the excess out. Run a couple of clean patches down the bore as well.

Done. Then do this throat and chamber cleaning often. That way a couple of turns of the mops will do the job in a couple of minutes. I do this every time I clean my rifles, which is every time I shoot more than 50 rounds. And this will not damage a very sensitive part of the rifle.

 

[tho98027]

Anyone have experience with witches brew?

 

[shoot4fun]

Anyone have experience with witches brew?

I have a bottle. First, it works. That out of the way, I don not use it "religiously" for any cleaning job. If you have a barrel that has been shot a good bit without any maintenance then Witches Brew is a go-to. It will clean out all the copper and carbon and leave you with a barrel that is shinier than a new blank. IMHO, any solvent that does that is abrasive and not good as an everyday choice.

 

[QRE23]

Maybe it's already been mentioned but has anyone used Flitz Bore Cleaner and if so how well did it work for you? Says this particular Flitz product is non abrasive.
https://www.flitz.com/gun-bore-cleaner/

 

[tho98027]

Curious how well witches brew worked for carbon ring removal. Bryan Litz uses witches brew. I just use boretech eliminator for routine cleaning.

 

[shoot4fun]

Curious how well witches brew worked for carbon ring removal. Bryan Litz uses witches brew. I just use boretech eliminator for routine cleaning.

Witches Brew works well on carbon rings but I have found IOSSO Gunbrite to work the very best. It will really clean and polish out a throat.

 

[MakeSawdust]

Since this discussion has come up I will add my experience for anyone who is interested. I have used JB Borepaste and had good results. I used it every 200 rounds in a couple of 243 Ackley barrels and both made it to 2500+ rounds before going over 3/4 moa.

I have recently been using iosso thoroclean from bullet central. It cleans very well, but I have not shot through a barrel yet to know if the accurate round count will go up or down vs JB. I have been shooting several different barrels at the same time, so I don't have very high round counts on any one of them yet.

 

[shoot4fun]

Since this discussion has come up I will add my experience for anyone who is interested. I have used JB Borepaste and had good results. I used it every 200 rounds in a couple of 243 Ackley barrels and both made it to 2500+ rounds before going over 3/4 moa.

I have recently been using iosso thoroclean from bullet central. It cleans very well, but I have not shot through a barrel yet to know if the accurate round count will go up or down vs JB. I have been shooting several different barrels at the same time, so I don't have very high round counts on any one of them yet.

High marks from me for JB but the Iosso bore paste in the tube is even better.

 

[7magsavage]

Serious carbon ring in my 6.5x47 that I’m dealing with now for the first time in three barrels of this caliber.
I’ve not been much of a barrel cleaner guy in the past but I think that’s changing. I’ve been working on this thing for two evenings and I’m getting nowhere.

I’ve tried C4, a brief trial of CLR and now I have the Iosso on order. Should be here Saturday.
I’ve also tried soaking it with patches wrapped around a brush, tried the bare brush on it and it’s still there.
Maybe a touch smaller and smoother but still there and still causing sky-high pressures.

 

[Baron23]

Serious carbon ring in my 6.5x47 that I’m dealing with now for the first time in three barrels of this caliber.
I’ve not been much of a barrel cleaner guy in the past but I think that’s changing. I’ve been working on this thing for two evenings and I’m getting nowhere.

I’ve tried C4, a brief trial of CLR and now I have the Iosso on order. Should be here Saturday.
I’ve also tried soaking it with patches wrapped around a brush, tried the bare brush on it and it’s still there.
Maybe a touch smaller and smoother but still there and still causing sky-high pressures.

Consider plugging one end of your barrel w a silicon plug and filling the bore w C4. Of course, it needs to be vertical. Then let it sit.

Friend did this and it solved his intractable ring problem.

@GBMaryland

 

[GBMaryland]

C4 is significantly more effective than CLR.

Re-clean the barrel with C4 and then soak the barrel with C4 by plugging up the chamber with a silicon plug.

let it sit for a day or two and then clean the living crap out of the chamber and and the copper ring with a bronze coper brush.

 

[Baron23]

clean the living crap out of the chamber and and the copper ring with a bronze coper brush.

FIFY

"clean the living crap out of the chamber and and the copper CARBON ring with a bronze coper brush."

LOL

 

[GBMaryland]

Bah…

 

[MakeSawdust]

I attack mine with a brush on a drill every 200-300 rounds. With 1700+ rounds on 2 Dasher barrels they both still shoot in the .2s off a bipod. I don't think it's hurting the accuracy. Maybe if it was benchrest where you are losing with groups in the .2s but I can't shoot any better than that off a bipod to be able to differentiate.

 

[ReaperDriver]

It's probably been answered elsewhere, but what causes the carbon ring and is there anything to do to prevent it or slow it down? Is it from the Case necks being oversized and not allowing it to form a seal? Or just the nature of the game?

 

[Yoteski]

It's probably been answered elsewhere, but what causes the carbon ring and is there anything to do to prevent it or slow it down? Is it from the Case necks being oversized and not allowing it to form a seal? Or just the nature of the game?

I asked a very notable gunsmith this same question. He says the gap between where the neck ends and chamber ends is the main culprit. He said most carbon rings are caused by trimming brass, or having short necked brass that leaves a gap at the end of the chamber is where he really sees carbon rings. He said trimming brass back to recommended trim length is a main contributor. He recommended minimal trimming, i.e. max case length to the chamber is best practice to avoid a carbon ring.

 

[JAS-SH]

It's probably been answered elsewhere, but what causes the carbon ring and is there anything to do to prevent it or slow it down? Is it from the Case necks being oversized and not allowing it to form a seal? Or just the nature of the game?

I theorize that it has to do with the way the firing sequence works. And it is endemic to all cartridge fired weapons that use rifling.

The bullet is lightly held in the cartridge by design. When the powder is ignited the bullet immediately jumps out of the case. It then engages the rifling which momentarily stops or slows down the forward movement of the bullet while the pressure builds. That space between the case mouth and the back of the bullet is where the carbon ring forms. For a fraction of a millisecond the ejecta from the not yet complete combustion has nowhere to go.

This all happens in milliseconds.