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Catastrophic Failure
- Thread starter Vrybusy
- Start date
scary deal, I always try to wear some sort of glasses when shooting, need to not get complacent. Thank you for sharing
Never under estimate the power of determined people, the guy who fired this case ( a 270 win, in a Weatherby MKV 270wby mag), said he had to raise the bolt 3 times to recock the rifle to get it to fire. Which must have been the reason he missed the deer. He was asking to see if we had any more ammo, cause he was out. After I took the camo tape of his rifle to show him he had the wrong caliber ammo, he said he borrowed it from a friend. I told him how lucky he was, but he did not seem to care or understand why. He also said he wasn't gonna pay near fiddy dollars for a box of 2-semdy boolits, and was going to wally world to get more of what he ran out of. .....Darwin?
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I'm amazed that some people can't seem to fully read and comprehend Harvey's comments, specifically to the effect that "Should a complete physical examination of the rifle find no problems, it should be test-fired again in a safe manner to establish whether it was caused by an ammunition problem." Which he also indicated would likely not become necessary, since most people here who have been paying attention are pretty confident that this was caused by an incorrectly installed barrel.
I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to conceive of whether there could possibly be some manner of setting a rifle into a test fixture and discharging it safely from a distance.
I am never amazed anymore. The truth of the matter is that it's Harvey that doesn't comprehend Harvey's comments. A long time ago there was the guy who, while driving his F-150 down the road, simultaneously heard a loud clunk from his engine and felt a sharp jolt. His mechanic couldn't find anything wrong so he kept driving it. Almost immediately thereafter a connecting rod managed to find its way straight through the block. I know of many stories like this. It's the result of mechanical incompetence. Find out what it is and fix it. Obviously there is a problem. If you can't figure it out that doesn't mean there isn't a problem, or that the problem is restricted to some mystical one time event, it just means you did not figure it out. And if you can't figure it out then be humble enough to ask for help in figuring it out. The mechanic suggested he drive the truck to see if it happened again (a moronic "reproducability" argument that resulted in a fat cash outlay for a new engine). Running the following phrase through the magical competence decoder:
"Should a complete physical examination of the rifle find no problems, it should be test-fired again in a safe manner to establish whether it was caused by an ammunition problem."
Yields the result "FAILURE". In this case if it's a faulty lot of ammo then why in the world would you need to fire it in this gun again!!!??? 308 ammo can be expected to work in most any rifle chambered for 308. And if it was but that single round that was at fault, I think the question here is even more basic, what was it that allowed the brass to flow into an area that it should not have been allowed to flow into? At what point would we have to see the heat and pressure necessary for brass and hot gasses to move steel out of the way to give way to the shape we see? (please do not answer this, I can do the math and it's supposed to be a ridiculous question because that event would have to be followed by the same steel moving back to its original location and appearing unmolested as it does in the pic).
The reason I am responding to this is because I am disgusted by such statements. They display a lack of rigor in both thought and effort. The result is a furthering of ignorance and sloth, may result in even more property damage, and at its worst may get someone hurt.
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Harvey's very first post in this thread (#122) suggests that the gun should be blown up again to "to rule out myriad conjecture".
I certainly do believe that it's possible to fixture the rifle in such a way as to blow it up again and again, but it's totally senseless to do so as a complete physical examination will almost certainly reveal the cause of malfunction. And why should we expose potentially-salvageable components to yet another round of excessive stress? Do we want to make sure that the OP has every chance to completely destroy the rifle?
After all the conversation, I am left wondering as to the level of emotion and vitriol still invested in this thread.
Even based upon the limited information presented by the OP, the cause of the CF seems reasonably clear as shown by the single photo in post #49. There appears to be about 0.10" anomaly of unsupported brass directly forward of the .308 case rim. Fine. This seems to be the consensus, and has been for some time.
The question that has been posed my myself and Arbiter is really quite simple and quite hypothetical:
But the reaction by the group has been just that; reactionary. So we ask again. Should a complete physical examination of the rifle find no problems (by any measurements, comparisons, whatever by whomever) what then, should become the fate of the firearm?
The popular position that it should never be fired again under any condition is puzzling.
Even based upon the limited information presented by the OP, the cause of the CF seems reasonably clear as shown by the single photo in post #49. There appears to be about 0.10" anomaly of unsupported brass directly forward of the .308 case rim. Fine. This seems to be the consensus, and has been for some time.
The question that has been posed my myself and Arbiter is really quite simple and quite hypothetical:
But the reaction by the group has been just that; reactionary. So we ask again. Should a complete physical examination of the rifle find no problems (by any measurements, comparisons, whatever by whomever) what then, should become the fate of the firearm?
The popular position that it should never be fired again under any condition is puzzling.
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VryBusy, Sure am glad you didn't get hurt any more than you did. Sorry you got hurt in the first place. You kinda dodged the bullet on that one. It has to be frustrating to go out and buy something that you have worked hard for and are really looking forward to and have it go south on you. Real sorry about that.
I am just going to repeat what a lot of people have said only TRY make it simple enough for the "shoot that fucked up gun again" crowd.
If the weapon is fired again and sustains further damage and give the manufacturer an argument in any civil action (muddies the water which attorneys love), if that civil action is necessary. It could give the manufacturer and out because he fired a known faulty gun AGAIN. I am not a gunsmith. I know how to clean my weapons, reload my own ammo, shoot my weapons, set up my equipment and not shoot myself or anyone else. Gunsmiths get paid to do all the other stuff. They are weapons technicians. I am not a weapon tech. I am a guy that just likes to shoot and will pay a professional to do the technical stuff and teach me about why they did what they did to my weapon.
When we had a catastrophic failure we did not get back into the helicopter and try to kill ourselves again. We did this magical thing called "diagnostics". Sometimes we got in the aircraft and tried to reproduce a symptom but we never went flying to try to reproduce a catastrophic failure. I did a lot of test flights and the only reason we survived some of them is because we knew that damn helicopter would kill us if we jammed our head up our ass and did anything stupid. A gun will do the same thing.
It is more rational to take some measurements which would be simple. The only way it should be fired again is AFTER a full inspection by a GOOD qualified gunsmith. This could mean disassembling, investigating, taking measurements and then reassembling. At that time would be the only time any sane person would attempt another firing of this weapon. It might be as simple as measuring the head space, or the chamber. But to just go firing the weapon again to PROVE it is fucked up, after it already blew up once is plain stupid. Stupidity is choosing to remain ignorant. Just gets stupider and stupider from there.
Some folks just should refrain from giving any advice. Jamming ones head up said ass will cause a marked impediment in one's eyesight as well as a lack of oxygen up to the brain which will result in making stupid fucked up decisions like trying to fire it again.
I am just going to repeat what a lot of people have said only TRY make it simple enough for the "shoot that fucked up gun again" crowd.
If the weapon is fired again and sustains further damage and give the manufacturer an argument in any civil action (muddies the water which attorneys love), if that civil action is necessary. It could give the manufacturer and out because he fired a known faulty gun AGAIN. I am not a gunsmith. I know how to clean my weapons, reload my own ammo, shoot my weapons, set up my equipment and not shoot myself or anyone else. Gunsmiths get paid to do all the other stuff. They are weapons technicians. I am not a weapon tech. I am a guy that just likes to shoot and will pay a professional to do the technical stuff and teach me about why they did what they did to my weapon.
When we had a catastrophic failure we did not get back into the helicopter and try to kill ourselves again. We did this magical thing called "diagnostics". Sometimes we got in the aircraft and tried to reproduce a symptom but we never went flying to try to reproduce a catastrophic failure. I did a lot of test flights and the only reason we survived some of them is because we knew that damn helicopter would kill us if we jammed our head up our ass and did anything stupid. A gun will do the same thing.
It is more rational to take some measurements which would be simple. The only way it should be fired again is AFTER a full inspection by a GOOD qualified gunsmith. This could mean disassembling, investigating, taking measurements and then reassembling. At that time would be the only time any sane person would attempt another firing of this weapon. It might be as simple as measuring the head space, or the chamber. But to just go firing the weapon again to PROVE it is fucked up, after it already blew up once is plain stupid. Stupidity is choosing to remain ignorant. Just gets stupider and stupider from there.
Some folks just should refrain from giving any advice. Jamming ones head up said ass will cause a marked impediment in one's eyesight as well as a lack of oxygen up to the brain which will result in making stupid fucked up decisions like trying to fire it again.
Great idea to keep the builder as a guarded secret! This may happen to someone else, because you didn't share the info, but it may help your court case! Or, you could post photos, builder etc. with the aim of preventing another shooter from suffering the same thing.
Harvey,
You would only fire it again if you could not figure out what the problem is. That right there should stop you in your tracks. But it doesn't, of course. Reminds me of a guy who claimed, "it is nothing but a flesh wound", then kept going until he was without limbs. Except that in this case it is not funny.
Your use of the word "reactionary" might be even worse than your original suggestion, if that is at all possible. It is so nebulous as to be without meaning. At least your suggestion has a specific, if tragic, direction. It is on this specific point that I wish to sound the alarm.
You would only fire it again if you could not figure out what the problem is. That right there should stop you in your tracks. But it doesn't, of course. Reminds me of a guy who claimed, "it is nothing but a flesh wound", then kept going until he was without limbs. Except that in this case it is not funny.
Your use of the word "reactionary" might be even worse than your original suggestion, if that is at all possible. It is so nebulous as to be without meaning. At least your suggestion has a specific, if tragic, direction. It is on this specific point that I wish to sound the alarm.
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Harvey, your first post did not include ANY diagnostics or examination. Your posts have evolved from simply "firing the rifle again" to examining it and then firing it again. I filter the information that people offer and when it is incorrect I usually install a bullshit filter that totally eliminates the bullshit. I also suspect that only reason you are still posting is that you are trying to evolve your way out of the faulty and incomplete advice that you gave in your first post.
I will not address any more of your posts to this topic. Your posts on this topic just make my brain hurt. You seem to be a real intelligent guy. You might have a wealth of information to share in another area but as far as this post goes you should just back off and let it ride.
Love,
CrankyOleGuy
I have no dog in this hunt. Just an interested observer.
I believe the OP mentioned at the beginning of the thread that the gun is now in the hands of a third party, as yet not named, as is the builder.
I would guess that this third party is competent to diagnose the problem or will turn the gun over to an expert who is and report back to the OP his findings.
In the mean time, I would suggest we all get our exercise in manners other than jumping to conclusions and flying off the handle or leaping into the abyss.
A little restraint and patience will, I'm sure, lead to a presentation of the facts of the matter and then we can go back to conjecture, ranting and the suggestions of litigation, mobs with torches and pitchforks, etc.
I believe the OP mentioned at the beginning of the thread that the gun is now in the hands of a third party, as yet not named, as is the builder.
I would guess that this third party is competent to diagnose the problem or will turn the gun over to an expert who is and report back to the OP his findings.
In the mean time, I would suggest we all get our exercise in manners other than jumping to conclusions and flying off the handle or leaping into the abyss.
A little restraint and patience will, I'm sure, lead to a presentation of the facts of the matter and then we can go back to conjecture, ranting and the suggestions of litigation, mobs with torches and pitchforks, etc.
Something weird has happened early in this new year, as I find myself in agreement with PP2.
Let's go back to post #122, which I will quote in its entirety:
You're not suggesting here that exhaustive examinations of the rifle and ammunition by qualified individuals are the correct next steps; you're jumping right to the conclusion that any hypothesis is "myriad conjecture" and that we need to see the rifle blown up a second time to prove... well, I'm not sure what we've prove, but it'd sure keep the thread going strong while providing a very good chance for damaging whatever components might have survived the first case failure event.
Stop digging the hole deeper.
VryBusy, I have been following your post from the very beginning I am glad you didn't get hurt also. All the speculation about the manufacturer and warranty is out the door when your Gunsmith altered the action and installed the new barrel. I see this as between you and your Gunsmith. If he is running a gun repair shop/ gun smiting he should have in place liability insurance that should take care of your medical bills and the loss of this gun. If it is his fault. I don't know how you took care of your medical bills at the hospital but if you filled on your insurance as a accident I would think your insurance will go after his liability insurance. You need to contact him and let him know what happened and see what his reaction is going to be. As in a post before there is no way I would shoot this gun again. IMO trying to work this out here is the wrong place to start.
Good Luck to you.
Good Luck to you.
Bolt actions and their operations are not some mysterious contraptions that defy logic. It is clearly shown in the OPs photo above that the pressure vessel (brass) failed just above the bolt head. The photo also clearly shows that the primer was not flattened. Pressure inside the case would be fairly equal in all directions and any pressure that would blow out the side would also be placed on the back (primer). So logic would conclude that this was not due to high pressure caused by a bad ammunition or an obstruction in the bore. So what could cause the brass to fail at normal pressure? The only logical answer is an unsupported case by a barrel tennon that was too short. Something that can easily be measured as I have stated in a previous post or observed by a simple test as A10XRIFLE has suggested. But I do realize we don’t live in logical times so shooting the rifle as soon as possible may be the only thing to do. Please take safety precautions when firing and plug yours ears.
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D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
Harvey is just being reactionary. At this point his advice to the OP is no longer relevant. He knows if he reverses himself the group will just beat him harder. It's the, "Private Joker, do you believe in the Virgin Mary?," syndrome. Hang in there Harvey.
If a real invisible six foot rabbit posted the same advice would anybody react in the same way? In literary, this is what we call comical relief. Left to right; James Stewart, Harvey. Let's continue.
If a real invisible six foot rabbit posted the same advice would anybody react in the same way? In literary, this is what we call comical relief. Left to right; James Stewart, Harvey. Let's continue.
Thanks for everyone's input, suggestions, etc... It's all been very good!
BPaulk, I should have stated this earlier, the rifle was a complete build from the company themselves. This was not a retro-fit or mod of an existing rifle.
A10XRifle suggesting dropping a case in to the chamber to check clearance (I believe). The problem with that is I believe the bolt at this time will not open far enough to insert a round.
As it was mentioned earlier, the rifle is in the custody of a third party and they are making the appropriate notifications, etc... I expect detailed photos to be taken (as suggested EARLY on in this thread) of the various parts of the rifle within the next week - possibly as early as Monday or Tuesday. I will be present while the photos are being taken. If anyone knows of specific photos of the bolt, mag well, chamber, lighting position, angles, etc... that would help diagnose the cause, please let me know and I'll make sure they're taken. Someone much more skilled at photography, with better equipment and actual photography training will be taking the pics.
BPaulk, I should have stated this earlier, the rifle was a complete build from the company themselves. This was not a retro-fit or mod of an existing rifle.
A10XRifle suggesting dropping a case in to the chamber to check clearance (I believe). The problem with that is I believe the bolt at this time will not open far enough to insert a round.
As it was mentioned earlier, the rifle is in the custody of a third party and they are making the appropriate notifications, etc... I expect detailed photos to be taken (as suggested EARLY on in this thread) of the various parts of the rifle within the next week - possibly as early as Monday or Tuesday. I will be present while the photos are being taken. If anyone knows of specific photos of the bolt, mag well, chamber, lighting position, angles, etc... that would help diagnose the cause, please let me know and I'll make sure they're taken. Someone much more skilled at photography, with better equipment and actual photography training will be taking the pics.
Vrybusy, It now looks like you brought rifle from a company/ gun store and a manufacture may also be on the hook if it was anew purchase. Good luck with this I think letting your Insurance go after them for your loses is good outcome for you. Let them use their lawyers and get you composition for your medical bills and future expenses plus your gun and damages.
The verbose reaction is due to you stating that the OP do something potentially dangerous and stupid. Noting new will be gleaned from repeating the actions. All the evidence needed is already available. I can't believe how many fucking idiots have chimed in. No wonder there are thousands of videos on youtube of people skateboarding off of buildings or drinking broken glass. Trying to reason with you fucktards is like yelling at your dog. Then again most domesticated animals have more common sense.
I have seen this twice in my life. Both of which the shooter left the cleaning rod in the gun. Is the barrel damaged.
I will add this, I have been involved in helping industial clients find 3rd part engineering expertise for screwed up machinery they purchased. If you do decide to go legal, have your lawyer seek out someone like ATS Technical Svcs who specializes in trial/court documentation of a faulty product.
Glad you are ok.
Glad you are ok.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
Lawyers are why we have 7 pound triggers coming from the factory and a lack of a clear owner's manual. I would rather deal with a six foot invisible rabbit. If it wasn't for lawyers there would not be such a demand for a "custom rifle" in the first place. High demand and low supply equates to quality control. What we have are too many custom rifle makers and too many custom rifle orders. Most of which probably end up in the hands of novices that would be better served with a factory Savage.
Bolt actions and their operations are not some mysterious contraptions that defy logic. It is clearly shown in the OPs photo above that the pressure vessel (brass) failed just above the bolt head. The photo also clearly shows that the primer was not flattened. Pressure inside the case would be fairly equal in all directions and any pressure that would blow out the side would also be placed on the back (primer). So logic would conclude that this was not due to high pressure caused by a bad ammunition or an obstruction in the bore. So what could cause the brass to fail at normal pressure? The only logical answer is an unsupported case by a barrel tennon that was too short. Something that can easily be measured as I have stated in a previous post or observed by a simple test as A10XRIFLE has suggested. But I do realize we don’t live in logical times so shooting the rifle as soon as possible may be the only thing to do. Please take safety precautions when firing and plug yours ears.
^This...
And now I have to wipe coffee off my screen! Love that last photo!
No, they were not reloads. The ammunition is from a very popular, reputable manufacturer. As for damage to the barrel, I cannot see any on the interior or exterior. Although, I have to admit that I have not inspected the inside barrel thoroughly since the incident. The gun has a very heavy barrel and I believe it would take a lot to cause damage that would be visible on the outside. There were no obstructions prior to shooting the rifle. As a side note, the bulled hit fairly close to the center of the target! So I guess it had a pretty decent bore sight.
That is not what you posted to start:
THIS is what got people fired up. You later changed that to what you said, to include the in examination turns up nothing.
Overall, IMO, the OP is doing the right thing.
Have the rifle examined, contact the builder, and see how it goes. He never said litigation to start.
The builder may step up and pay all damages (medical bills) and fix/replace the rifle.
If not, THEN decide what action should be taken.
Have the rifle examined, contact the builder, and see how it goes. He never said litigation to start.
The builder may step up and pay all damages (medical bills) and fix/replace the rifle.
If not, THEN decide what action should be taken.
This thread is just an example of how when something good happens, people may tell one person, when something bad happens, everybody knows. Not saying this is a bad thing, just shows how bad news travels fast.
Mark
Mark
I'll definitely request test shots/targets from a builder when I get into custom builds. This rifle isnt built by Tacticalrifles is it? I hear they have issues building rifles, but thats just hear say.
Third bag of popcorn…….
Vrybusy, I hope your face and eye---especially the eye---heals quickly and 100%. Glad you were not too seriously hurt.
Vrybusy, I hope your face and eye---especially the eye---heals quickly and 100%. Glad you were not too seriously hurt.
Rather than a bag of popcorn, try the Orville white corn kernels, in olive oil (simple skillet with lid works great) 
I just finished some
OP, I'm glad it wasn't more serious and I'm standing in line anxiously waiting for the next update as well!
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
I just finished someOP, I'm glad it wasn't more serious and I'm standing in line anxiously waiting for the next update as well!
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
That tends to happen, especially when the bad news involves trips to the hospital during the customer's first use.
I'm glade you are alright that could have been sooo much worse. But calling the builder would have been the very first thing I would have done directly after the round went haywire. I'm not sure I would have given myself enough time to calm down, M-Fing and all I just wouldn't care. A custom build to me means that care and time is taken to ensure that it will perform better then and have more reliability then any factory piece you could buy, so for me to recieve a custom build that fails in that fashion is just not at all exceptable, but that's just me.
Dave
I don't understand how you concluded their bore sight was on. You determine the scope is on target when the very first round went haywire in the chamber? that is impossible to determin given what happened. Nothing about the round or rifles performance were correct. I would say that if it did hit on point that was one hell of a fluke.
Dave
I don't know why you'd blame lawyers. Lawyers just argue the case; it's the legislature that makes the law.
I think this post is either completely fabricated or full of half truths. OP's first post and his gun blew up? I smell shit.
I was kinda wondering (in the back of my head) if this wasn't his first go at being a Gunsmith or possibly his friend's or mabey he bought a barrel and did the install himself or something. Only he knows 100% for sure but I guess we could wait and see, somethings just aren't adding up IMO.
I know where you're coming from, but I'm taking it at face value for now based on the following scenario:
You're a non-Hide Member who purchases his first custom-build. You take it to the range and if fricken BLOWS UP in your face. You go online seeking possible explanations for said
malfunction. You're google-fu inevitably brings up links to the Hide, so you start reading and then join in order to be able to ask for assistance.
I find that explanation plausible and even likely. I'm instantly suspicious of guys who join and start hawking someone's product right off the bat (or trashing one), but he STILL hasn't even named a builder so I'm not seeing an agenda yet.
I am, however, getting kind of irritated at the cageyness about details on who built the damn thing and I completely disagree with this much elapsed time and still not having contacted the builder. At this point he's drummed up a fair amount of shit and hasn't even informed the guy who built it that there's a problem.
Fwiw every LR, inc. Barreled action/rifle is test fired prior to delivery. Range work is expensive. For a shooter its fun. For a shop owner its tough to charge a client what it really costs to go shoot an afternoon away. For those lucky enough to have an onsite range, I envy you.
