I agree.
No flutes and the bolt reminds me of a Savage.
Deep flutes and it's visually too flashy; elevating the look above the function.
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Coup De Grâce, New Action from American Rifle Company, $899 WOW!
- Thread starter karagias
- Start date
I agree.
No flutes and the bolt reminds me of a Savage.
Deep flutes and it's visually too flashy; elevating the look above the function.
I am digging the fluting in the video!
Any automotive technicians reading this post just cringed at the mere hint of torque to yield barrels.
As usual, Ted is 100% correct that 100-150 lb-ft is on the very low side of torque for the 1" thread diameter and pitch used in the barrel tenon even given the relatively soft material composition of the barrel; the issue is work holding and how you would hold the receiver and barrel without damaging them if aiming for a higher torque and strain on the joint. The good news is 100-150 lb-ft is adequate for a stable joint between the barrel and action (Mike R from Tac Ops might have a different opinion on this, and that would probably be a very interesting conversation) and you don't need crazy fixturing or work holding to achieve 100-150 lb-ft of torque so the tooling is reasonably priced for the home assembler.
Edit:
Just watched the bolt takedown video... Very nice. The flutes on the bolt in that video look pretty good too.
While I really like my Archimedes based 223AI build, if someone decides to make AW double stack 223 magazines I'll build a new 223AI using the CDG just for the ease of loading the double stack magazines...
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No but its similar to the most promising design attempted so far. I'll post a pick as soon as we finalize the decision.
Ted
LOVE the flutes in the bolt takedown video! Seeing as how you said they're similar to the most promising design so far, my interest has been thoroughly piqued!
Bolt disassembly video was amazing to watch. The process looked easy even though it looked like Ted was about to freeze solid
The only reason I don’t like them is they add $$ to any repair, and sometimes it’s a significant amount. Other than that, I don’t really have a problem with tty bolts
Any automotive technicians reading this post just cringed at the mere hint of torque to yield barrels.
The only reason I don’t like them is they add $$ to any repair, and sometimes it’s a significant amount. Other than that, I don’t really have a problem with tty bolts
Same. But I still just bought a brand new 223 bolt head for my Arch because I think that might be years away.
I quite enjoyed the vid on the bolt disassembly and compliment Ted on once again being one of of what seems to be like very few actual innovators in bolt rifle actions. Def not a Rem 700 clone.
Kudos, Ted.
Though, in all honesty if I tried to take that bolt down to that many pieces I would def loose at least on and def not remember how to get at least one part back together! haha A detailed written tech manual type procedure (with pictures), would prob be helpful and short circuit hordes of people sending in bags of parts to ARC to be reassembled. LOL
Kudos, Ted.
Though, in all honesty if I tried to take that bolt down to that many pieces I would def loose at least on and def not remember how to get at least one part back together! haha A detailed written tech manual type procedure (with pictures), would prob be helpful and short circuit hordes of people sending in bags of parts to ARC to be reassembled. LOL
@MikeRTacOps people have been wondering at your barrel torque numbers. Do you thread standard v shape threads or do you thread a different thread profile?
Cross threaded. With a big enough lever, every barrel will tighten
Any automotive technicians reading this post just cringed at the mere hint of torque to yield barrels.
As usual, Ted is 100% correct that 100-150 lb-ft is on the very low side of torque for the 1" thread diameter and pitch used in the barrel tenon even given the relatively soft material composition of the barrel; the issue is work holding and how you would hold the receiver and barrel without damaging them if aiming for a higher torque and strain on the joint. The good news is 100-150 lb-ft is adequate for a stable joint between the barrel and action (Mike R from Tac Ops might have a different opinion on this, and that would probably be a very interesting conversation) and you don't need crazy fixturing or work holding to achieve 100-150 lb-ft of torque so the tooling is reasonably priced for the home assembler.
Edit:
Just watched the bolt takedown video... Very nice. The flutes on the bolt in that video look pretty good too.
While I really like my Archimedes based 223AI build, if someone decides to make AW double stack 223 magazines I'll build a new 223AI using the CDG just for the ease of loading the double stack magazines...
Depending on the barrel, you could use the method Ted demonstrates here to assemble and torque the barrel at the range...
Ted is using a torque wrench and a 12 point box end wrench that won't slip off the barrel... too precise.
My favorite barrel change video of all time is Jacob from rifles only using an adjustable wrench and a hammer to change barrels on his AW...
Final barrel torque: yes.
I do want to mention that the ARC factory barrels being cut for a 12 point box end wrench is extremely handy and I'm surprised other manufacturers haven't borrowed that idea.
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Posts 825- 841 ish. I thought I remembered hearing that you do more buttress shape threads so the 500ish fl/lb numbers don't mess with things as much since it is more in line.
Love my arc actions, now I’ll be getting this one to add to the family. I’m really hoping the next arc action is for 22lr. Fingers crossed!!!!!!!
I’m intrigued by the AIAW option. Can anyone tell me if 6mm Creedmoor is able to feed reliably from an AW mag?
Should have no issue once the height of the mag is correct.
Now you're just talkin' ca-RAY-zy talk.
Benchrest shooters have been using them for decades.
Dual port and drop ports are sweet too. Eject the brass on the right or bottom as you toss another loaded round in from the left.
It's fast beyond belief.
I pretty much shoot prone and single shot so a right bolt with a drop port would be awesome.
Then there's the occasional need for something like the left bolt, right port and right eject.
Dual port and drop ports are sweet too. Eject the brass on the right or bottom as you toss another loaded round in from the left.
It's fast beyond belief.
I pretty much shoot prone and single shot so a right bolt with a drop port would be awesome.
Then there's the occasional need for something like the left bolt, right port and right eject.
AIAW mag versus AICS (aka AI) mag
What follows pertains specifically to short actions.
The Coup De Grâce runs both AICS and AIAW mags. The AICS mag will require a mag latch that is about .07" shorter than that for the AW mag.
If you're wondering which mag is better, it is the AW for sure. People often talk about how smooth an action is while cycling it without a loaded magazine installed. The magazine has a huge effect on how the action really feels. Given two fully loaded 10-round mags, one AIAW and one AICS, it is much harder to push the first round out of the AW mag than it is to push the first round out of the AICS mag. Therefore, the action will run more smoothly if used with an AW mag.
Additionally, the AW mag can more effectively raise the cartridge stack to the feed-lips because there is less friction between the inner walls of the mag and the cartridges. There is less friction in the AW mag because it is wide enough to accommodate with clearance a close-packed cartridge stack. The AICS mag is not wide enough to do this. In fact, its walls are tapered and its spring tends to push to cartridges apart and against the walls resulting in friction forces that are no present in the AW mag.
So, you might ask, why aren't more action compatible with AW mags? Unless the action is specifically designed for use with an AW mag, it is difficult to get them to run reliably. In actions such as the Rem 700 and its clones which have two diametrically opposed lugs, one each at 3 and 9 o'clock when open, it is difficult to get an AW mag high enough into the receiver for proper case head presentation to the bolt face. Doing so results in almost cutting the receiver's mag-well completely through to its ejection port which is something manufacturers are reluctant to do and for good reasons. Thus, it's usually the case that the AW mags don't quite present enough of the case head to the bolt face, and as the cartridge pitches up on its way out of the mag and up the loading ramp, the bolt may overrun the cartridge as the the case head drops out of engagement with the bolt face. Hence, most 700s and clones are used with AICS mags with only some brands reluctantly offering AW-cut mag wells as an option.
The Coup De Grâce was specifically designed to reliably and smoothly feed from AW mags. The fact that it also works with the AICS mag is a collateral benefit.
Both the front and the rear of the AW magazine will hard stop against the bottom of the receiver preventing it from ever obstructing the bolt. See picture below.
Only the rear of the AICS mag will hard stop against the bottom of the receiver. If the rifle is placed on top of an inserted AICS mag, the forward end of the mag's feed-lips will obstruct the forward motion of the bolt. But because the bolt encounters the feed-lips at a very shallow angle, the shooter can drive the bolt forward with additional force to push the feed lips out of the way and camber the cartridge. If you want to use the AICS mag and prevent any part of it from obstructing the bolt, a small tab (hard stop) can easily be inserted between the receiver and the stock/chassis at the forward end of the mag well and held in place by the forward guard screw. See picture below. This will require a slot to be machined into the stock/chassis. American Rifle Company's Xylo chassis is now machined with this slot.
You have options.
1. Run AW mags. You'll be happy.
2. Run AICS mags and remember to keep the rifle off of the mag or run the bolt aggressively if the rifle is on the mag.
3. Run AICS mag and install forward hard stop tab.
I prefer option 1.
Ted
What follows pertains specifically to short actions.
The Coup De Grâce runs both AICS and AIAW mags. The AICS mag will require a mag latch that is about .07" shorter than that for the AW mag.
If you're wondering which mag is better, it is the AW for sure. People often talk about how smooth an action is while cycling it without a loaded magazine installed. The magazine has a huge effect on how the action really feels. Given two fully loaded 10-round mags, one AIAW and one AICS, it is much harder to push the first round out of the AW mag than it is to push the first round out of the AICS mag. Therefore, the action will run more smoothly if used with an AW mag.
Additionally, the AW mag can more effectively raise the cartridge stack to the feed-lips because there is less friction between the inner walls of the mag and the cartridges. There is less friction in the AW mag because it is wide enough to accommodate with clearance a close-packed cartridge stack. The AICS mag is not wide enough to do this. In fact, its walls are tapered and its spring tends to push to cartridges apart and against the walls resulting in friction forces that are no present in the AW mag.
So, you might ask, why aren't more action compatible with AW mags? Unless the action is specifically designed for use with an AW mag, it is difficult to get them to run reliably. In actions such as the Rem 700 and its clones which have two diametrically opposed lugs, one each at 3 and 9 o'clock when open, it is difficult to get an AW mag high enough into the receiver for proper case head presentation to the bolt face. Doing so results in almost cutting the receiver's mag-well completely through to its ejection port which is something manufacturers are reluctant to do and for good reasons. Thus, it's usually the case that the AW mags don't quite present enough of the case head to the bolt face, and as the cartridge pitches up on its way out of the mag and up the loading ramp, the bolt may overrun the cartridge as the the case head drops out of engagement with the bolt face. Hence, most 700s and clones are used with AICS mags with only some brands reluctantly offering AW-cut mag wells as an option.
The Coup De Grâce was specifically designed to reliably and smoothly feed from AW mags. The fact that it also works with the AICS mag is a collateral benefit.
Both the front and the rear of the AW magazine will hard stop against the bottom of the receiver preventing it from ever obstructing the bolt. See picture below.
Only the rear of the AICS mag will hard stop against the bottom of the receiver. If the rifle is placed on top of an inserted AICS mag, the forward end of the mag's feed-lips will obstruct the forward motion of the bolt. But because the bolt encounters the feed-lips at a very shallow angle, the shooter can drive the bolt forward with additional force to push the feed lips out of the way and camber the cartridge. If you want to use the AICS mag and prevent any part of it from obstructing the bolt, a small tab (hard stop) can easily be inserted between the receiver and the stock/chassis at the forward end of the mag well and held in place by the forward guard screw. See picture below. This will require a slot to be machined into the stock/chassis. American Rifle Company's Xylo chassis is now machined with this slot.
You have options.
1. Run AW mags. You'll be happy.
2. Run AICS mags and remember to keep the rifle off of the mag or run the bolt aggressively if the rifle is on the mag.
3. Run AICS mag and install forward hard stop tab.
I prefer option 1.
Ted
Attachments
Plus AW mags are so much easier to load, especially with heavy gloves on. I personally hate AICS mags...
Just don't drop a loaded one
I really like the idea of AW mags. Never had a rifle that was designed for them, so I've never given them a shot.
I thought the ARC mags were a great idea to combine the two ideas, but in practice they don't work great with bigger cartridges or cartridges with more weight (i.e a 6.5 Creedmoor works better than a .308, but a 6BRA works a lot better than either). The friction of going from double stack to the single stack configuration makes it tricky, though smaller cartridges like the 6BR/BRA seem to do fine.
Besides the length of AICS mags, my biggest gripe is the amount of pressure they place under the bolt when fully loaded (or close to it). There's a noticeable difference in how an action behaves and functions under a fully loaded mag versus one that isn't.
I would doubt it, but I can't speak for Ted or his company.
His mags were designed to solve a problem inherent with AICS pattern mags.
I'm not sure what needs to be solved with AW mags, and there's a known source of high quality mags (AI).
I believe Ted has stated before that manufacturing mags is a huge PITA. Why bother when AI already makes great mags in the AW pattern? Not much to get from that, IMO.
Over the years, many people have asked us for this. I've been reluctant to do it because I don't want my customers blowing their faces off in the event that they drank to much whisky while handloading and carelessly dumped a bunch of Varget into a 300 WM or 338 LM.
We blow actions up during obstructed chamber tests to ensure they stay together after people make mistakes. The ensuing blasts are terrifying and if your head is in close proximity to fragmenting receiver, well it's like the YouTube video says, "It was at this moment that Jackson knew, he fucked up!"
Thus left-port right-handle worries me. I'd need to talk this over with a good attorney before offering such a thing for sale. Same goes for aluminum receivers and switch-barrels with split receivers, with the notable exception of Accuracy International. Those guys smartly do obstructed chamber tests. Aluminum receivers are obviously used in millions of AR-15s but the majority of those guns shoot a tiny 223. Bolt actions are different. They're often used with big cartridges that release enormous amounts energy.
I normally don't do this but I decided to attached three pictures of actions blown apart while testing materials, heat treatment, and finishing. Take this seriously. Handloading mistakes can result in serious injury or death to you and to bystanders. We work hard to make these as safe as possible and to safeguard against carless errors made by shooters but there are limits to what we can do.
Enjoy the pics and be careful. Don't be like Jackson.
Ted
Just don't drop a loaded one
I really like the idea of AW mags. Never had a rifle that was designed for them, so I've never given them a shot.
I thought the ARC mags were a great idea to combine the two ideas, but in practice they don't work great with bigger cartridges or cartridges with more weight (i.e a 6.5 Creedmoor works better than a .308, but a 6BRA works a lot better than either). The friction of going from double stack to the single stack configuration makes it tricky, though smaller cartridges like the 6BR/BRA seem to do fine.
Besides the length of AICS mags, my biggest gripe is the amount of pressure they place under the bolt when fully loaded (or close to it). There's a noticeable difference in how an action behaves and functions under a fully loaded mag versus one that isn't.
This is one of my biggest gripes with AICS mags. When fully loaded they made my Tikka feel much worse than with the OEM CTR mags. After one range trip I promptly switched back to CTR mags. Doesn't make a big difference if you're running the bolt fast but most of the time I'm not in a match setting where I'm doing that.
Overall I'm really excited for this action. Seems to be a very well thought out design that actually has some differentiators from existing actions. Looking forward to getting my hands on one.
Just don't drop a loaded one
I really like the idea of AW mags. Never had a rifle that was designed for them, so I've never given them a shot.
You know, I’ve been using AW mags almost exclusively since 2014 and haven’t experienced but one round popping out when a full mag was dropped from standing on concrete. I keep hearing people repeat what you’ve said and I understand both the mechanical and logical reasons for it being said, but it just hasn't been my experience.
On the other hand I’ve twice seen AIAC mags dropped from kneeling, onto a concrete pad. They fell just right/wrong I guess and it knocked the bottom plates clean off with the spring, mag body and rounds scattered everywhere.
Pressures attainable by careless handloading but that's just part of the story. The tests were conducted to evaluate various combinations of material, heat treatment, and surface finishing.
Ted
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I can’t imagine the amount of people asking for that would even remotely compare to the amount of people that would love the amazing ingenuity of bad assness that comes from arc being put into a 22lr action. Ted you should put your efforts there please. Just saying
If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't want to offer non-standard options to the masses either.
Too many people think that it's perfectly safe to go beyond the 62ksi loads in their Manbun.
The discussion about acceptable pressure vs excessive pressure happens monthly around here and some people just don't get it.
I've had the privilege to manufacture ammunition as a job. Along with that, I used pressure test barrels daily. If the average handloader could see just how quickly pressure builds and how quickly it goes from average safe loads, into proof loads, it would scare the shit out of them.
To get them to understand the amount of pressure needed to destroy an action would take a miracle.
For discussion purposes, and to educate those that aren't aware, most of the dual port actions are built to fire the 22 or 6mm PPC and the occasional 6mm or 30 BR cartridge.
Most of the shooters using the PPC are very meticulous. They use mostly N-133 for the PPC and to have a different powder around would be blasphemy.
The 30 BR shooters have mostly H-4198 or LT-30.
I've only ever seen a handful of BR shooters that had more than one powder around at a time.
Average Jo-Bob probably loads at home instead and has 20 different powders on his shelf. It's pretty easy to grab the wrong type if he's distracted or inebriated.
As a manufacturer, you can't control Jo-Bob or his buddies while they are trying to squeeze every single foot per second out of that Manbun or the PRC.
Come on man, it's only a little difficult to lift the bolt. And, and, and, the primer isn't completely flat yet...
It's just not worth it to offer the custom ports to Jo-Bob and Billy-Rae.
@karagias I'm gonna PM you.
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