If you like it that’s fine, but don’t try and pretend like a prefit is an inferior product. Ridiculous.
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Defiance bought out
- Thread starter clark33
- Start date
If you like it that’s fine, but don’t try and pretend like a prefit is an inferior product. Ridiculous.
Thank you for sharing.
It might be wise as per the conversation around McMillian to discontinue the Tenacity line in lieu of the fact that at $1500+ it really doesn't differentiate it from the remainder of the current product line.
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First of all, nobody has personally attacked you. People poking fun at the absurdity of the price increase percentage or the criticism of the company taking such a hard downward turn immediately following the sale is not a personal attack. Me stating my perspective that you're no longer an asset to the company and what I would do in the Becks situation also is not a personal attack.
Secondly, the second your company announced publicly that it was sold you were open to public scrutiny, then the events followed of the price increase and your own statements about it being necessary to keep the doors open. So if you don't want to public to know, don't tell the public, because the public is entitled to form their own opinion.
Thirdly, nobody has brought up the PRS/NRL sales data except for you and it was not brought up in your previous post. Last I checked this is not the official PRS/NRL internet forum and SH was formed over a decade before PRS was even a concept. This is a community for long range shooting and hunting enthusiasts and absolutely is your customer base. APA and GAP for two great examples use your actions, where do you think the word of mouth advertising and customer base that helped grow those companies into who they are today came from? It wasn't podcasts, it wasn't FB groups, and it wasn't PRS banners because none of those even existed when either of those companies were up and coming, it was internet forums just like these and largely this one. This is a small niche community made up largely of small businesses, most of which don't have the finances for marketing campaigns and even if they did most people aren't buying $4K custom rifles built on $1500 custom actions. But lets just assume for a moment that this is a PRS/NRL website and consumer base exclusively. By percentage how many competition enthusiasts as a whole are buying your actions vs the hunting community as a whole? The answer is heavily towards the competition shooters because most hunters aren't spending as much money on their entire rifle and optic combo as one of your actions costs.
Last, I don't know who you are nor have I assumed who you are but by your statements its easy to figure out that you seem to have been with the company for a while and in the know regarding operations and should have been aware of what was going on for a company with over a year backlog to all of a sudden need such a huge price increase to be profitable. It's still my opinion that you shouldn't be the one handling public relations and you just continue to reiterate that, and no thats not a personal attack either.
No one has EVER acquired any company and seen quality improve.
The only reason for acquisitions is so the acquiring company can find a way to trim fat and increase profits.
The only reason for acquisitions is so the acquiring company can find a way to trim fat and increase profits.
We should have seen this coming once GAP moved from Defiance Tenacity to Curtis Scout. 
That is not true at all and it's also not happening here. Given that the company in question is operated in one of the states with the lowest corporate tax rates, land prices, building costs, etc and other companies are producing the same type of product for less it clearly indicates that fat could be trimmed and be more profitable. Instead the opposite is happening, a huge price hike to be more profitable. If quality suffers they're going to lose every custom builder that they OEM for and they know that.
Look at pretty much every company freedom group acquired and drove into the ground mostly, it happened as you said but I know at least two of those companies that were sold in the bankruptcy and quality has greatly improved. Marlins are actually becoming decent rifles again.
Companies get sold and bought for all sorts of reasons, sure your example is one of them and quality decreasing certainly does happen sometimes but thats far from the only outcome or the only reason companies are acquired. So to say that nobody has ever acquired a company and seen quality improve is completely inaccurate and shows that you have no clue what you're talking about.
I can promise you that isn't the case anymore. Real estate and property taxes in some areas of this state are obscene.
Interesting that you took that personally.
When someone makes an assumption and runs with it to further feed a fire that is unnecessary at best, is just internet pile on. Admit it.
And actually no company has an onus to answer a single person’s questions regarding company internal workings, unless that person happens to be a shareholder and the company is traded in an exchange. Especially wholly owned companies.
But hey, go ahead. This is the ‘only I count’ world we live in and it’s most important that everybody answer your questions, no matter how unreasonable they may be.
Man I ever owned a business there’s no way I’m coming to snipershide to explain a damn thing lol.
Good luck @Defiance Machine - I never ran your actions but know a lot of guys who do and they all like ‘em. Hopefully y’all figure it out.
Good luck @Defiance Machine - I never ran your actions but know a lot of guys who do and they all like ‘em. Hopefully y’all figure it out.
Some real estate and some areas yes, but that’s not true for a whole state and it’s different for commercial property than residential. Residential stuff has gone insane in a lot of free states because of people fleeing to them from commie states but that has little to do with businesses. Recent studies still have Montana ranked as one of the bests states in the country to operate a business in, Forbes has it at #7.
So yes, operation costs in MT is a huge business incentive and people buying up residential their like mad hasn’t changed anything about that, yet.
I hadn't seen that but it doesn't change anything or somehow make this online community entirely PRS/NRL based because of one persons data use of that. Rokslide, which is 99% a hunting forum with a lot of members who spend the $$ for quality gear also has a thread on the matter and their thoughts are pretty much an echo of what has been said here regarding the price increase and this sudden downward turn of the companies profitability.
Oh, and yes, customers can ask whatever they want. Companies can choose to not answer anything they don’t wish to. You have no ‘right’ to know.
Theis was completely transparent, so by your definition, Theis represented a Great company.
Maybe this is all besides the point but Defiance is currently on the outskirts of Whitefish, MT. Not an area where I'd consider real estate remotely cheap. No idea if their building is paid for and what their property taxes are like but that's a big $ area these days.
MONSTER TRUCKS AND FIREWORKS!!!! EVEN YOU CAN SHOOT AN ELK AT ONE GORJILLION YARDS!!! BE SURE TO WEAR THE NEWEST NAME BRAND YIKUI OR WHATEVER FAGGOT NAMED FANCY SHIT!!! GO DEFIANCE!
Forbes? I'm not sure I'm supposed to care what an out of touch rag tells me with dated information. The situation here is quite dynamic.
Defiance's shop is more of less located at ground zero for overpriced real estate and property taxes in this state. That's resulted in excessive salary demands for average Joe-bag-o-donuts to survive in these areas. I also understand the the cost of doing business is relative but, when compared to Montana 10 years ago, or even five years ago, the expenses are not insignificant.
I'm certainly not defending the new ownership's price hikes but things here aren't what they seem to most.
And if you read the follow up comments with the obvious question, you will see that he never responded. His side of the story, "I..had a admin problem in the office during our busy schedule and did not have all of the proper documents for the deer that were taken. I absolutely was convinced that I had everything in order before I left on the hunt, but did not double check."
Any first year hunter will know the single most important "document" they can have on a hunt is their tag(s). A guy that is hunting for a fucking TV show? Shit...
Administrative problems my ass, he bagged a deer that he did not have a tag for, got the man brought into his life, and paid the penalty. That is all he needed to say was, "Yes. I fucked up."
And 1700.00 for a Ruckus? LMAO!! They're nice, but they're nowhere near 1700.00 nice.
As the owner of a defiance action that I plan to use the piss out of in my lifetime I sure hope they stick around. Part of the reason I bought it was the track record of the company. I’m sure many others are in the same boat as I and thinking maybe it’s time to buy a spare bolt and some small parts.
Forbes is a good source for data like that. Regardless of whether they’re in a more expensive area of the state there is still a shit load of business incentives there and it doesn’t change the fact that some companies are making the same type of product with the same materials and machines in areas that cost much more and they’re doing it for way less money.
A sudden real estate price increase or inflation or both doesn’t equate to a product going from $995 to $1595 to stay profitable.
Thanks for posting this, there's a lot of interesting nuggests in there. For one, I didn't know Defiance was owned by a VC firm before being bought.
I definitely agree with your last sentence I was mostly just trying to convince you that Montana has changed a lot in the last few years...and certainly not for the better. Frankly, I have no idea what states like OK (Impact) NE (Zermatt) offer for incentives. But, are they that much more restrictive than MT? I'm confident I could increase the square footage of my house by over 100% on more acreage if I moved to NE or OK though.
And, to remain consistent with the them of this thread, I must include a parting shot. Forbes can suck it. There's no way I can be convinced they include all data points regarding their opinion and assessment of business operating costs.
Enough. Next person to post about skulk or sulk or any other bs like it or arguing it is banned.
Agreed. While I wish them well and hope they can recover, more for the employee’s sake, hope is never a good plan. The writing has been on the wall for several months with them, and each new development really isn’t a surprise. It wouldn’t surprise me if they fold in the next several months, which sucks for the employee’s. I hate to see people of our mindset lose their livelihood. I will take a some enjoyment out of watching the Extreme group douchers holding the bag though.
I understand a rise in prices, but the Tenacity went up over 50% from what I just saw from the site and now costs more than an Impact Precision 737R and that’s with the Tenacity not being Nitrided. Loved y’all’s actions, but this increase is steep and doesn’t make sense against the competition. Wish y’all the best and every time I called @Defiance Machine you were always helpful with great customer service.
First customs build was a Defiance and I started PRS with a Tenacity.
First customs build was a Defiance and I started PRS with a Tenacity.
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I like that. It also reminds me of what my mother had said. "Do not argue with an idiot. Someone might see the two of you and not be able to tell you apart."
Keep in mind that whatever the overhead structure and profit structure that Defiance had pre-buyout has changed. Unless it was a cash deal (doubt that but who knows) the new ownership has to add servicing the debt of the buyout to everything that was already there. Not surprising that it changes the profitability picture.
Last comment. I hope Defiance doesn’t suffer the same fate as Nesika.
Last comment. I hope Defiance doesn’t suffer the same fate as Nesika.
I am a manager for a business. Everything we have is made from oil and delivered by vehicles that use oil. Along with everything else in the world. So, not only did we have price increases on our items, we also put on a commodities surcharge. It is the only way to survive as a business. There are times when I have had to talk directly to a customer rather than the builder who is working for them. Some will tell that so and so company down the road does it this way. I calmly inform them that we are not concerned with the other company down the road and we do not "compete" with them. We are the best at what we do. You have the choice to choose us for the work.
I also see a lot of people who imagine what a business cost is or how it is adjusted. That being said, the consumer still has the power. I like the rifles at Gunwerks, for example. But I cannot afford one. Nor do I spend energy telling them I think their stuff is too expensive. I could say the same for Defiance or any other company. If it is the quality and features that you want, then the price is worth it, whatever that is.
Also, in this day and age, having any job is a blessing and so a company does what it can to conserve resources and keep people employed.
Glad there are more options out there of similar or greater quality for less. I had considered running a Defiance in the near future but not no more at those ridiculous prices. I'm glad this happened before I made my final decision. Given the state of our economy I doubt the company will survive in the future.
That is simply untrue. There are growth based purchases and there are purchasers where cutting costs is critical to making a purchase work. They are not the same.
When I got out of B-School, my first real project was working on the purchase of a business unit from a struggling competitor that could not invest in that business. We got a great deal because they had to sell.
When we took over the business unit, every single employee was offered the same position. We rented better office space and better computer equipment. When they wanted to hire more people, they did because they were growing like a weed. Our company made a huge profit on the deal.
Another example is Google. They have been growing their business every year by buying up smaller companies like YouTube and growing them. They have made so many purchases (255) that they have their own wiki page. They win when they grow those businesses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Alphabet
A lot of distressed purchases result in a deleverage companies because the lenders are forced to write down bad debt and/or trade debt for equity. They know pushing the failing company into bankruptcy will lead to larger losses.
Debt/Equity Swap
A debt/equity swap is a mechanism a company utilizes for financial restructuring. It can also be viewed as a renegotiation of debt.
corporatefinanceinstitute.com
It almost seems like many of you are rooting for Defiance to fail. That's a bummer.
The world of custom rifle actions is a pretty niche industry, supported by enthusiastic patrons willing to pay a premium for a premium product. Economics 101 principles don't really apply here for the same reason they don't apply to Cabot 1911s and Chris Reeve knives and Rolexes and...
I don't think Defiance has any serious competition in the ultra-customizable action market (sorry Impact/LP/Curtis/Zermatt/etc fans), so they have some solid market ground to stand on going forward. I am rooting for them as a stalwart and innovator of this industry that I love, and I will continue to support them when their actions best fit my needs, price increases be damned.
Defiance has done a TON to push this industry forward, no one can question that. It sucks to hear that they are struggling, and I especially feel for the people over there, my fellow gun crazed perfectionists that are a dying breed in this country. Defiance CS has always been outstanding.
This industry and community faces enough fire from outsiders; it sucks to see a foundational company taking friendly fire. I for one will be giving them the benefit of the doubt. The people manning the machinery and answering the phones over there have earned that from me.
Best of luck in 2023, Defiance.
The world of custom rifle actions is a pretty niche industry, supported by enthusiastic patrons willing to pay a premium for a premium product. Economics 101 principles don't really apply here for the same reason they don't apply to Cabot 1911s and Chris Reeve knives and Rolexes and...
I don't think Defiance has any serious competition in the ultra-customizable action market (sorry Impact/LP/Curtis/Zermatt/etc fans), so they have some solid market ground to stand on going forward. I am rooting for them as a stalwart and innovator of this industry that I love, and I will continue to support them when their actions best fit my needs, price increases be damned.
Defiance has done a TON to push this industry forward, no one can question that. It sucks to hear that they are struggling, and I especially feel for the people over there, my fellow gun crazed perfectionists that are a dying breed in this country. Defiance CS has always been outstanding.
This industry and community faces enough fire from outsiders; it sucks to see a foundational company taking friendly fire. I for one will be giving them the benefit of the doubt. The people manning the machinery and answering the phones over there have earned that from me.
Best of luck in 2023, Defiance.
@Defiance Machine
Thank you for responding to the thread. If I may add my two cents. While I do not own a Defiance action; I feel that Defiance is loosing or perhaps lost the edge. There does not seem to be any innovation based upon the website’s listed actions feature list and reviews. So while the price increase may have been necessary, the current line up doesn't seem to give the consumer the best “bang for their buck”.
I do hope the best for all involved.
Thank you for responding to the thread. If I may add my two cents. While I do not own a Defiance action; I feel that Defiance is loosing or perhaps lost the edge. There does not seem to be any innovation based upon the website’s listed actions feature list and reviews. So while the price increase may have been necessary, the current line up doesn't seem to give the consumer the best “bang for their buck”.
I do hope the best for all involved.
I get and understand your sentiment. But should mention that Stiller actions, while still plenty affordable, have lost plenty of market to the many brands now available. Yet people are not buying enough of them. Why is that?
Not directed specifically at you, yet it is germain to the discussion of cost versus PRs/tactical competition customers and their tastes.
You raise an interesting point. The only custom action I have a Terminus Zeus. Surprisingly in my case I had narrowed it down to the Deviant or the Zeus at the time they were comparable in price. I went with the Zeus for two reasons. First reason, Defiance was at a 17 month lead time. The second reason was the Zeus has a quick change system….and I thought I’d be a little barrel changing, caliber swapping machine…..its stayed in 300wm since i got it. Lol.
Other than that…its 700s for me. Something in a song about “im just a poor boy from a poor family…” (some please finish the song lol
The price for an AXSR just increased to $10,400. Suddenly a $1,700 action doesnt sound too bad.
And the company I manage? We are in a niche industry. Most of the customers have significant amounts of money. The projects we work on sometimes fall in the realm of "If you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it."
Well, that "luxury" item pays my salary and those of the guys who work with me. So, the next time I see a guy with a $12k rifle, I salute him for his choice and the people who are able to feed, house, and educate their families because this customer shopped with them instead of whatever is on sale at Academy.
Which is what I have been saying all along. Then, again, I work for a business where we are constantly faced with price increases on the products that we use. So, if a guy does not like the cost of the rifle, look to his enshrined photo of the president and say, "Thanks, Joe."
If your company (if your case, Oil) has significant exposure to commodities, why are you not hedging?
Everything in the world has seen a price increase this year! I didn't see a shit storm start when Frank Green announced a price increase on Bartlein barrels. I believe he even warned us of multiple price increases in 2023.
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