Defiance bought out

#201
DeathBeforeDismount said:
The action is the cheapest part of a rifle you will buy. Everything will be switched out a couple times, maybe even triggers. With that being said, I would not be surprised if defiance is not arround in 3 years.

They were already on the decline. Despite growing the business, they were losing market share. 5+ years ago they owned the tactical and PRS market. Today, they have Impact, Lone Peak, Zermat and Terminus all eating their share. In their heyday the really only had to compete with Bighorn/zermat, Stiller doing its death throes and some small shops like Bat/borden/kelby.

Now the brains behind the company sell out to a "media personality"/gun conglomerate. We saw something similar happen with Surgeon and after Tate left, what did they become? They haven't come out with a new product in like 10 years and they are now irrelevant, when they owned the tactical and prs market back in the day.

Add the price hike and its a clear money grab. Now I don't know if the long wait times are due to production chokeholds or actual insane demand, but I would expect people cancelling their orders and pivoting to a Better, Cheaper and Faster to get product. GAP is already building a ton of guns on non Definace actions, which the templar and gladius is.

Definace really fucked up by being late to the prefit game. Surgeons from 10+ years ago were built accrate enough to use prefits before they were even a thing in this market. It was what? like 2 years ago they finally came out with the Tenacity and Ruckus that can use prefits? Little late to the party. I don't know why anyone who is shopping for a new action would not go with Impact, Lone peak or terminus. Much better designed actions, more reliable, cheaper and much easier to get.

This pattern is predictable. That is why we called out their demise as soon as they announced the sale. Who is going to continue to invoate the product? Who is going to ensure quality does not suffer because its their baby? The new owners need an ROI and they aren't going to get it by giving everyone a great value.

Its a shame too, the tencacity was IMO the best of the budget actions. Now they are more expensive than all the competitors premium actions....
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The prs market is such a small one that I think many companies don’tOut too much effort into it. The hunting community is many times larger and I see pictures of builds all the time using defiance actions. Look at Instagram for example. Defiance has 4 times the amount of followers that Impact has. I think they have built such a strong name for themselves that they will be fine. Innovation in a Remington 700 clone action can really only go so far anyway. I think custom hunting rifles is where the money is at. Stock companies sell far more hunting stocks than they do prs stocks.
 
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#202
S3th said:
If your company (if your case, Oil) has significant exposure to commodities, why are you not hedging?
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To be more exact, everything we use from plastic heavy duty in-use covers to the insulation on the wire to the plugs and switches is derived from oil. Our fleet of F-350s need oil and fuel, refined from oil. That is what I meant about anything in our business is dependent on oil. Hence, the commodities surcharge. And times where we have to raise base prices, anyway. Because, in part, the pile of feces in the white house who decided we did not need to develope our own resources. So, we have to buy from others at their prices and their production abilities.

Not to forget, everything you buy at the store is more expensive. And just because of "supply chain issues" but look at the price of diesel. Look at the price of eggs. Say "Thanks, Joe" with a noticable sound of sarcasm.
 
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#203
Earnhardt said:
I currently have 4 Deviant Tacticals…
I will buy 0 more at those prices

It doesn’t show an option for a Lapua bolt any more
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338 Lapua / 300 Norma bolts are still available in every model (except the Outcast). It was removed from the Pricing because there is no longer an upcharge for that. All action lengths and bolt diameters are the same price.
 
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#205
Mike at Defiance said:
338 Lapua / 300 Norma bolts are still available in every model (except the Outcast). It was removed from the Pricing because there is no longer an upcharge for that. All action lengths and bolt diameters are the same price.
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Good to hear. I was getting worried that my Deviant Tactical Lapua would never show up. Any updates on catching up on orders? I heard a gun shop rumor that a couple of your machines went down. If so, I hope they can get back online quickly.
 
#206
My deviant and deviant hunter are among my favorite actions. But Defiance, Bob, whoever needs to hear it….you’re smoking fucking crack with these price increases. They simply aren’t worth the money. I’ve owned many custom action. Yes Defiance is nice. But that’s nearly 2x what my Kelbly Atlas cost. And it damn sure ain’t twice the action.
 
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#207
Lead times should go down as there will be less orders coming in with the new prices. I’ll never be selling my defiance actions now even though they went up $500 in value over night. Really disappointed to hear no more crf actions.
 
#210
b6graham said:
does defiance normally have different MSRP vs dealer/retailer pricing?
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New management so nothing is "normal". But I picked up an anTi for less than Defiance MSRP before the buyout.

I'm just saying people are freaking out like they did at Vortex when they dropped the $4k G3 Razor. Let the street prices be sky high before running around with pitchforks.
 
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#212
I think this just shows the market is always changing. My deviant is my smoothest action so I want companies like that to do what they need to do in order to stay in business. I expect some others will raise prices, some will maintain and some new players will come in lower.
 
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#213
srt-4_uk said:
New management so nothing is "normal". But I picked up an anTi for less than Defiance MSRP before the buyout.

I'm just saying people are freaking out like they did at Vortex when they dropped the $4k G3 Razor. Let the street prices be sky high before running around with pitchforks.
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I agree with the pitchfork comment.

However, are Vortex products usually sold under MAP? Are Defiance actions? That may be a clue.
 
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#214
kthomas said:
I agree with the pitchfork comment.

However, are Vortex products usually sold under MAP? Are Defiance actions? That may be a clue.
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How many actions have been sold under this new management? It's all assumptions as of right now.

But again, I bought my anTi for significantly under the price advertised on Defiance's website. I can't speak for any other actions.
 
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#215
GenericBadGuy said:
Wow man the price increases on Defiance actions are over 27% for next year. If new ownership was intending to tank sales this would be a great way to do it. Yeah yeah, material cost increase, labor cost increases.

Going to be a hard sale for Tenacitys to go for $1595, Ruckus for $1695 and Deviants for $1795.
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You're 100% on target....that's a $400.00 jump from when I bought my Deviant in May of 22. Bat action will get my Business from now on....
 
#218
srt-4_uk said:
How many actions have been sold under this new management? It's all assumptions as of right now.

But again, I bought my anTi for significantly under the price advertised on Defiance's website. I can't speak for any other actions.
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Significantly under what the price was at the time you bought it?

Tenacities at least were *extremely* rare to buy under the same price Defiance listed them (885) previously. You could get very small deals here or there but it for sure wasn’t a dealer map vs factory msrp situation at all.

Perhaps this is a new model where msrp and ordering through defiance is much more than through a distributor, but comparing it to vortex who has a long track record of msrp inflated far above map and no direct customer orders is not very analogous imo.

They have publicly said they can not operate at previous pricing, and have had to call customers to deliver the news of price increases on orders, this makes me skeptical of your implied concept that much of the change is just a business model change.

We will see. A tenacity is a 1100$ action max in the current marketplace imo
 
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#219
B52841B6-0676-47DD-8016-4A8B7941CCC0.jpeg
 
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#220
I've been building on Defiance Actions for the past 6 years, with a marking variance from the ATF to brand the actions under my business name. The company has always been a pleasure to deal with and the products speak for themselves. But now with the new pricing and dealer discounts I'll be looking to build on different actions in the near future. I currently have 2 actions invoiced from several months ago that will be affected by the price increase. These are actions for customers custom rifle builds that I cannot in good conscience raise the price on. I will have to eat the price difference... I understand them raising prices, but doing it on actions I ordered in the past is not cool. Also my dealer discount has been cut by more than half, forcing me to look for a new supplier. I think it sucks all around for everyone right now (especially the Defiance employees that have to take the brunt of the gripe) and hopefully the business will streamline. Us dealers are getting screwed along with the consumers.
 
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#221
The market is too competitive for them to maintain this pricing structure. I assume once production catches up to current demand, pricing will fall.

When the Anti-X came out it was a game changer for light steel actions. Now how many companies offer something similar; 3 or 4?
 
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#222
I see numbers being posted but I'm wondering if they are all accurate. I don't know about the cheaper actions being discussed or dealer discounts but I know a little about pricing on Deviant actions.

I ordered a Deviant action in 2021 and the price listed on the website was $1380. I ordered another one in 2022 and the listed price was $1555. That is a 12.7% price increase. I don't remember a frenzy about that one, did you guys miss it?

The current price on the website is $1745. That is a 12.2% price increase from the previous price and a 26.5% increase from the 2021 price. I would prefer no price increase but compared to other things I purchase, that doesn't seem extreme to me. If I needed another action, I would order one at the current price.
 
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#224
Edds said:
I see numbers being posted but I'm wondering if they are all accurate. I don't know about the cheaper actions being discussed or dealer discounts but I know a little about pricing on Deviant actions.

I ordered a Deviant action in 2021 and the price listed on the website was $1380. I ordered another one in 2022 and the listed price was $1555. That is a 12.7% price increase. I don't remember a frenzy about that one, did you guys miss it?

The current price on the website is $1745. That is a 12.2% price increase from the previous price and a 26.5% increase from the 2021 price. I would prefer no price increase but compared to other things I purchase, that doesn't seem extreme to me. If I needed another action, I would order one at the current price.
Click to expand...
In august a tenacity was 885$
It increased to 995$ right after.

After the acquisition it is now 1595$
 
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#225
1. A business has to stay profitable or it has to shut the doors.
2. The business model, prior to the purchase, wasn't maintaining the profitability to stay open.

People in this thread have compared Defiance new prices to other custom action manufacturers lower prices. I would argue that isn't an apples to apples comparison. Defiance is the largest custom action manufacturer in the world. They have more custom action options and have created more innovation for the industry than can be put in this thread. With those options and the volume that Defiance does you also have a much larger amount of overhead and liability. Covid hasn't helped with this reality.

I know not everyone here attends NRL/PRS matches but Defiance is one of the few action manufacturers that I always see on the prize table. The people, generosity, professionalism, and character of Defiance hasn't changed. The prices and owner are the only thing that have. Things go up in price. Especially now days. An extra $400 for an action, in the grand scheme of things, is very small. Were buying $4,000 scopes and driving $70k diesel rigs to the range, but an extra $400 is enough for the community to burn down a company that's given back 10 fold? I think we should probably take a step back and realize that Defiance is just trying to maintain profitability while providing one of the best custom actions on the market.
 
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#228
mustang-cars said:
1. A business has to stay profitable or it has to shut the doors.
2. The business model, prior to the purchase, wasn't maintaining the profitability to stay open.

People in this thread have compared Defiance new prices to other custom action manufacturers lower prices. I would argue that isn't an apples to apples comparison. Defiance is the largest custom action manufacturer in the world. They have more custom action options and have created more innovation for the industry than can be put in this thread. With those options and the volume that Defiance does you also have a much larger amount of overhead and liability. Covid hasn't helped with this reality.

I know not everyone here attends NRL/PRS matches but Defiance is one of the few action manufacturers that I always see on the prize table. The people, generosity, professionalism, and character of Defiance hasn't changed. The prices and owner are the only thing that have. Things go up in price. Especially now days. An extra $400 for an action, in the grand scheme of things, is very small. Were buying $4,000 scopes and driving $70k diesel rigs to the range, but an extra $400 is enough for the community to burn down a company that's given back 10 fold? I think we should probably take a step back and realize that Defiance is just trying to maintain profitability while providing one of the best custom actions on the market.
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So because you’re dumb enough to buy a 70k diesel to drive to the gun range the rest of us should eat an extra 400 for an action?

No, some of us are smarter than that.
 
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#230
RFutch said:
So because you’re dumb enough to buy a 70k diesel to drive to the gun range the rest of us should eat an extra 400 for an action?

No, some of us are smarter than that.
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So you're saying you have a $4,000 scope just not a 70k diesel. That was a joke. Seriously though. It was an example of how we spend a lot of money on this hobby/sport and $400 isn't a lot. Powder has doubled in price since 2019. Have you stopped buying Hodgdon or Alliant powders?
 
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#231
mustang-cars said:
So you're saying you have a $4,000 scope just not a 70k diesel. That was a joke. Seriously though. It was an example of how we spend a lot of money on this hobby/sport and $400 isn't a lot. Powder has doubled in price since 2019. Have you stopped buying Hodgdon or Alliant powders?
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I’m saying $400 is still a lot of money to some people and not all actions have gone this route. I highly doubt you’ll see other mfg come out with this high of an increase this year.

I also stocked up on components the end of 2019 because this ain’t my first rodeo. I’m still shooting match loads for under $1 per round.
 
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#232
RFutch said:
I’m saying $400 is still a lot of money to some people and not all actions have gone this route. I highly doubt you’ll see other mfg come out with this high of an increase this year.

I also stocked up on components the end of 2019 because this ain’t my first rodeo. I’m still shooting match loads for under $1 per round.
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But in all seriousness. Do you have a $4k scope? Inquiring minds want to know!
 
#237
I saw the prices and thought it had to be a mistake. There is no damn way Defiance maintains sales with those prices!!! The AnTi & AnTi-X were competitively priced. Now they cost more than a titanium action. I loved Defiance, but there are a lot of other high quality options. Price-to-quality was my reason for going with Defiance.

I was about to sell a spare AnTi action to a buddy, then realized my replacement would be over $600 more.... what the actual ****!!!!! AnTi and AnTi-X were my go-to, for lightweight mountain builds. But, it looks like I'm going back to titanium. Never thought I would say that I've built off of my last Defiance action..... sad day....
 
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#243
I mean they have to pay for buying the company so I guess the markup is fair. It’s in every industry that has a buy out currently. Or they can buy it and tank the sales to close it up so it’s not a competition for there other products. It’s pennys on a dollar when u compare it to other things we buy
 
#244
Jamesjohn85 said:
I mean they have to pay for buying the company so I guess the markup is fair. It’s in every industry that has a buy out currently. Or they can buy it and tank the sales to close it up so it’s not a competition for there other products. It’s pennys on a dollar when u compare it to other things we buy
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Sure, when you are paying a boutique gunsmith to build a $4,000 rifle for $8,000 there is a market. However, I have a hard time not believing that that market is going to continue to shrink.
 
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#247
DeathBeforeDismount said:
No it just adds fuel to the fire. It's not like it's some long time employee who bought the company and has blood sweat and tears. No emotional investment or pride in product.

I'm just spitting what's happening and what is most likely to happen. Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last.
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And Beck bought the company (which was majority owned by a VC firm) and every single employee is still employed and working.
 
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#248
WyoHunter said:
I saw the prices and thought it had to be a mistake. There is no damn way Defiance maintains sales with those prices!!! The AnTi & AnTi-X were competitively priced. Now they cost more than a titanium action. I loved Defiance, but there are a lot of other high quality options. Price-to-quality was my reason for going with Defiance.

I was about to sell a spare AnTi action to a buddy, then realized my replacement would be over $600 more.... what the actual ****!!!!! AnTi and AnTi-X were my go-to, for lightweight mountain builds. But, it looks like I'm going back to titanium. Never thought I would say that I've built off of my last Defiance action..... sad day....
Click to expand...

Same. I bought a long action anti a week before the buyout was announced for a great price. I have a manners LRH on order that I originally had inletted for an xm plus anti but at those prices I switched it to a titanium lone peak.
 
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#249
mustang-cars said:
So you're saying you have a $4,000 scope just not a 70k diesel. That was a joke. Seriously though. It was an example of how we spend a lot of money on this hobby/sport and $400 isn't a lot. Powder has doubled in price since 2019. Have you stopped buying Hodgdon or Alliant powders?
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Talking about Apples to Apples..... I wouldn't have thought you had the same choice in powders as actions?
If you can get a powder that does in all definable aspects the same thing, cheaper will be my choice.
And ultimately this is all about choice too👍
PS I'm a Zermatt and AI guy, so it is what is for me....
 
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