Die Stems Sent to Mfg. (CH4D) for Work, This is What I Got, What Would You Do?

[Strykervet]

So I sent two .50 decapping stems back to the mfg. for work. The sizing stem's decapping pin broke off flush at the base of the stem. The decapping stem, which I had custom made with a few promises a while back, needed the expansion ring removed. This is what I sent them:

What they sent me were two complete replacements. For $78. Only way I knew this was I checked my balance and noticed it and called. At first they didn't know 'nuffin. When I wanted a refund, they got defensive and all of a sudden started recalling info. I called back on Monday and got a rude guy who said I could just send back the two new ones, that they were busy and couldn't remove the pin because it was broken off flush and "I must have put something on the pin or damaged it when it broke" and couldn't cut that ring off "because I must have loctited the cap" which is bullshit, I never touched it. When given solutions to both and asked why they didn't just heat up the cap to remove it if they were so sure it was Loctite and they said, "Oh, we don't do that". The promise made was if the ring caused a problem, they'd cut if off if I returned it. There is a warranty, or so I thought, on their products and I wasn't sure a broken pin was covered and was willing to pay for any work needing to be done on that. So they sell my decapping die idea now, but wouldn't even do me proper by removing the ring or by not charging me for the replacement on the prototype.

They never called to say they had a problem, never called to say they were charging me money (they just kept the card info from when I ordered five decapping pins early last December!) nothing. Telling me I can return the damn stems and they'll give me a refund does me no good, they good and damn well know I need those or my entire fucking system just shuts down from decapping dirty brass to sizing and trimming clean brass.

Left feeling like "take your goddamn replacements and fuck off" or "send it back and fuck off". Definitely the last time I send them a goddamn dime. This didn't happen yesterday either, I've been fuming about it for about a week. Before I give 'em one final recommendation to future customers, I wanna see what everyone else thinks or if I'm being the asshole here, just not understanding enough. But I thought tool and die shops were nothing short of magical when it came to machining, and I have solutions for it so how can they not? How is anything on "too tight" that a machine shop has to say "fuck it"? How can a diagonal hole not be drilled hind the decapping pin so it can be pushed out with a thin drill stock? This is a .50BMG stem, not a 5.56. There's room to work.

What would you do? I can't send 'em back with a fuck you and demand the refund, I need the decapping and sizing dies to work.

I suppose I could fill out a BBB complaint, so that they get a no-shit real bad review when searched for.

EDIT: CH4D is the mfg. No reason to hide that anymore. They've made it obvious they have my money now and I can go fuck off, but that under no circumstances will be they following through with their promises or warranties, and that I as the customer must have done something to sabotage the work I requested them to do.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Personally, I'd chalk it up to profit and loss and make a note to deal with other suppliers, and another note that custom concepts are prototypes, and can encompass hidden flaws.

As for further communication, I would think it would be downhill from this point and leave that carcass where it lies. The aggravation alone would negate any potential gain.

I suspect any complaints or negative reviews would be impossible to separate from the scent of sour grapes.

Move on.

Greg

 

[buffalowinter]

If you paid with a credit card , you can send them back and decline the charges. For $78 it's probably easier to just write it off and never do business with them again. 40 years ago, $78 was a big deal to me, today I prefer to just write it off and enjoy life.

 

[Threadcutter308]

So I sent two .50 decapping stems back to the mfg. for work. The sizing stem's decapping pin broke off flush at the base of the stem. The decapping stem, which I had custom made with a few promises a while back, needed the expansion ring removed. This is what I sent them:

View attachment 6932592

What they sent me were two complete replacements. For $78. Only way I knew this was I checked my balance and noticed it and called. At first they didn't know 'nuffin. When I wanted a refund, they got defensive and all of a sudden started recalling info. I called back on Monday and got a rude guy who said I could just send back the two new ones, that they were busy and couldn't remove the pin because it was broken off flush and "I must have put something on the pin or damaged it when it broke" and couldn't cut that ring off "because I must have loctited the cap" which is bullshit, I never touched it. When given solutions to both and asked why they didn't just heat up the cap to remove it if they were so sure it was Loctite and they said, "Oh, we don't do that". The promise made was if the ring caused a problem, they'd cut if off if I returned it. There is a warranty, or so I thought, on their products and I wasn't sure a broken pin was covered and was willing to pay for any work needing to be done on that. So they sell my decapping die idea now, but wouldn't even do me proper by removing the ring or by not charging me for the replacement on the prototype.

They never called to say they had a problem, never called to say they were charging me money (they just kept the card info from when I ordered five decapping pins early last December!) nothing. Telling me I can return the damn stems and they'll give me a refund does me no good, they good and damn well know I need those or my entire fucking system just shuts down from decapping dirty brass to sizing and trimming clean brass.

Left feeling like "take your goddamn replacements and fuck off" or "send it back and fuck off". Definitely the last time I send them a goddamn dime. This didn't happen yesterday either, I've been fuming about it for about a week. Before I give 'em one final recommendation to future customers, I wanna see what everyone else thinks or if I'm being the asshole here, just not understanding enough. But I thought tool and die shops were nothing short of magical when it came to machining, and I have solutions for it so how can they not? How is anything on "too tight" that a machine shop has to say "fuck it"? How can a diagonal hole not be drilled hind the decapping pin so it can be pushed out with a thin drill stock? This is a .50BMG stem, not a 5.56. There's room to work.

What would you do? I can't send 'em back with a fuck you and demand the refund, I need the decapping and sizing dies to work.

I suppose I could fill out a BBB complaint, so that they get a no-shit real bad review when searched for.

The shitty part of it is that it’s probably less than 5 minutes of CNC machine time (to make a customer happy). There are many businesses out there that have zero understanding of that concept. We’ve all run across them before (One reamer manufacturer that shall remain nameless on this post). Fuck ‘em and move on.

 

[Maggot]

Greg and Buffalo gave you good advice. Unless the $78 is going to put you on the street take the replacements, consider it a lesson learned, and move on. the aggravation isnt worth it.

 

[supercorndogs]

If they made an unauthorized charge on your card, then sent you something you didn't order. I am not sure you are obligated to pay or return the items. Probably easiest just to eat the 78 dollars though.

 

[Dewey7271]

One reamer manufacturer that shall remain nameless on this post).

Yeah and I didn’t pay attention to that and am in the middle of a train wreck.

 

[WATERWALKER]

I’d give CS another shot. I wouldn’t talk to the same person again; either someone else or that person’s supervisor. Go as high up the chain as you deem necessary. I’d probably eat the $78 this time as you need the decapping pins to produce ammo.

I’d also look for another vendor & file a complaint w/ BBB & leave poor reviews if they don’t make this right.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

The whole thing is prototype?

 

[Strykervet]

The whole thing is prototype?

No, only the decapper. It was my idea to take a seating die and marry a sizing stem to it. I think they used a neck sizer instead, I can't remember exactly but it doesn't size the brass the way it's setup. They left the expanding ring on it and PROMISED to remove that if it was a problem. Then they proceeded to sell the design I gave 'em. Which is fine, I just think they should have honored the promise.

I’d give CS another shot. I wouldn’t talk to the same person again; either someone else or that person’s supervisor. Go as high up the chain as you deem necessary. I’d probably eat the $78 this time as you need the decapping pins to produce ammo.

I’d also look for another vendor & file a complaint w/ BBB & leave poor reviews if they don’t make this right.

The owner was the absentminded fuckup liar. He pawned me off on his dickhead asshole shop manager who basically says "like it or fuck off". Yeah, I can get a refund --and still be left with two stems that need to be repaired or else buy new shit.

This is how they treat warranty work. Their excuse (after the first two lies failed) was that they were too busy to do what they promised, too busy even to let me know they were charging me or to even send an invoice. They're obviously too busy for my business, just wish they'd said that up front.

I'm gonna call the CC company and see if I can dispute the charges if for nothing else than to give them something else to do. I should have posted the pictures on here and just seen if any of you guys could have fixed it for less, but stupid me for thinking they'd follow through on their promises and commitments on warranty work. It's a tool and die shop. IME they can do pretty much damn near anything.

 

[Strykervet]

So the company is CH4D. Stay away. Owner doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground and the shop manager is about as lazy and defensive as I've ever talked to. Definitely a "we got your money now, go the fuck away" business.

You see how they operate, use 'em at your own risk.

If anything breaks or fucks up or if they make a promise to do work, it'll be your fault and they won't do a goddamn thing and their only excuse will be "they're too busy, take it or leave it".

I'm gonna go to BBB and some other sites and call the CC company to see if a chargeback can be done. I'll see if I can't help 'em out with being too busy.

Thanks guys, just always like to see what you guys say because I get pretty hot fairly fast over shit like this and I just wanna make sure that I'm not being the asshole or asking too much.

EDIT: talked to CC company, they started a dispute. Wasn't sure I had one but they didn't seem too keen on CH4D's business practice and didn't think the catch 22 they put me in was gonna fly they way they did it. We'll see. They've already refunded me the money but I have to wait until the investigation is over to see if I get to keep it (nice they do it that way, if it was for a lot of money an unexpected charge could really screw you up).

This is why I like to use CC or Paypal for purchases. If I'd sent him a MO or a check I'd just be screwed.

Now on to the BBB.

 

[spaniel]

A company can't charge you just because they have you CC# and decide what the solution is. They need a signature or the electronic equivalent. You have a valid dispute here, and they are SOL for sending you parts you didn't request.

 

[mheimer_45]

^^^ What he said

 

[Strykervet]

Just got off the phone with CC company, apparently there was a case because they opened a dispute after I told 'em what happened and answered their questions. So it seems I've done all I can do. They didn't seem too keen on their business practices after I told 'em same thing I told you guys.

A company can't charge you just because they have you CC# and decide what the solution is. They need a signature or the electronic equivalent. You have a valid dispute here, and they are SOL for sending you parts you didn't request.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the CC company isn't gonna go their way or it didn't sound like it. I'm sure he'll lie and say I authorized it but I'm pretty sure I can prove I didn't. I filed a BBB complaint with 'em too.

But I never authorized anything, in fact I told them if there was any charge to call me about it because it was supposed be warranty work and no fee. So yeah, the $78 came as a surprise. Hope they get it cleared up by next week (that's what they said) so I can just move on from it.

Never using CH4D again regardless.

 

[spaniel]

I'm sure he'll lie and say I authorized it but I'm pretty sure I can prove I didn't. I filed a BBB complaint with 'em too.

But I never authorized anything, in fact I told them if there was any charge to call me about it because it was supposed be warranty work and no fee.

Well that's the great part about this for you. You don't need to prove anything. The burden of proof is on them...and unless there are some outright lies here I can't imagine they have it.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Just got off the phone with CC company, apparently there was a case because they opened a dispute after I told 'em what happened and answered their questions. So it seems I've done all I can do. They didn't seem too keen on their business practices after I told 'em same thing I told you guys.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure the CC company isn't gonna go their way or it didn't sound like it. I'm sure he'll lie and say I authorized it but I'm pretty sure I can prove I didn't. I filed a BBB complaint with 'em too.

But I never authorized anything, in fact I told them if there was any charge to call me about it because it was supposed be warranty work and no fee. So yeah, the $78 came as a surprise. Hope they get it cleared up by next week (that's what they said) so I can just move on from it.

Never using CH4D again regardless.

I don't think I've ever had to make a claim on any of my personal cards, so I can't speak from that angle. I do have a company AMEX and if you make a claim against a vendor, AMEX just credits your account for anything $50.00 or less. I don't know, but I think they just automatically go back and ding the vendor. It's doubtful the vendor is going to waste his time for that amount. I suspect that even though it's more like $75.00 in your case, it'll go down in a similar fashion.

 

[mdmp5]

My CC company credits you whatever the charge amount is regardless of cost during the investigation. These guys sound like a couple of fuck ups I’m sure you will keep the credit. The BBB is kind of a waste of time. People pay them off and their accreditation doesn’t mean shit. If there was a rating for the BBB, it would be shit

 

[Bender]

BBB is the biggest scam ever. They have ZERO power and will side with due-paying members over a customer every time.

 

[tnichols]

Old friend had a great saying, “It ain’t always the money, it’s the grief”. Seems to apply here.

 

[Maggot]

I don't think I've ever had to make a claim on any of my personal cards, so I can't speak from that angle. I do have a company AMEX and if you make a claim against a vendor, AMEX just credits your account for anything $50.00 or less. I don't know, but I think they just automatically go back and ding the vendor. It's doubtful the vendor is going to waste his time for that amount. I suspect that even though it's more like $75.00 in your case, it'll go down in a similar fashion.

American Express. they take care of their people. Whenever possible I use Amex through PayPal then youve got a double layer of protection.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, they just straight up helped themselves to the CC. I gave it to them for another purchase but did not okay anything this time. In fact, I told them to call if there was anything they ran into that was gonna cost. And Citi refunded (or is in the process of) refunding it. I'll keep it unless they determine they're in the right, which there's no way that can happen. So Citi and BBB are both calling 'em to resolve this.

When I went to BBB site, they did have two ratings for them that were both 4/5 stars and no complaints. Now they have an official complaint against them and when you search for them it should come up. They aren't registered with BBB (IME, companies that wanna continue doing crooked shit will never sign up). It seems $78 to make that disappear would be worth it to me. I think they did what they did because perhaps they were busy, but also because the owner is apparently a dementia patient (I'm serious here) and the shop manager belongs, well, in the shop --not on the phone with customers discussing billing issues. But he also strikes me as the asshole they put on the phone to tell others to fuck off. At any rate, BBB DID get back to me already, but it was just "hi, you have a case, we'll call them, we'll keep in touch" kinda letter.

Take it or leave it. Send it back and we'll refund it. Bullshit. If it wasn't a catch 22 they'd put me in, I would do just that. But now I've told them to make this go away I want my money back AND I'm keeping the goddamn parts. If they get ANYTHING it'll be the broken shit they should have fixed --COD. They can repair those and sell 'em to the next guy, I didn't bugger 'em up and they look new.

It's about the money and it's not. I'm trying to keep costs down and keep getting dollar and dimed to death (that's what my grandmother called it). I've had to fix at least $300 worth of false charges last month (each one was a different mistake, all were cleared up but it took time). This is the only one I've ever had to dispute. And $78 may not be that much, but to me that's 1000 primers I can't get and I DO need those. I'm not greedy but I don't like just throwing it away or letting someone take it from me. I don't mind helping others, donating, whatever, but I do mind theft.

 

[Strykervet]

UPDATE:

So BBB let me make a complaint, then they contacted the business, who was completely disingenuous and fabricated most of his emotionally biased statement from a position of defensiveness and made many claims against me for this time "supergluing" the dies together. Who here thinks that after introduction to loading at 8 or 9, and loading since 25, that I'd superglue die components together? Quality ones at that! Not in any books I'm aware of, or the instructions I meticulously read. So I felt attacked on that.

BBB allowed them their response and completely ignored the part where they accessed my CC without permission and declared the "case resolved". It's FAR from resolved! Let this be a warning to you all, seemingly good companies you're giving a chance can turn in an instant it behooves each and every one of us to pay using CC because BBB did nothing (like many of you said would happen) however, the CC company is currently doing their own investigation and finding permission to allow drawing funds from my CC isn't something they're gonna find because it doesn't exist.

Just want my money back and I'll go away. I've got the money back right now, just want it settled where I keep it.

Wish me luck and that these guys have their shit together.

 

[SilentStalkr]

I’d just keep the replacements and decline the charges. If they ask just explain that they charged you without your knowledge and that you’ve already been charged once before on products received. The bank will win.

 

[Strykervet]

Well, THIS shit is back!

BBB, like you guys said, is a fucking waste of time. They found in favor for the company without bothering to look at the complaint, obviously. And turns out when you do a chargeback, if the company sends the CC proof of delivery, they close it out and charge you again.

So I got PISSED! How in the fuck can THEFT be okay when they do it, but not when I do it!!!?

So I called CC back again and found out that they do that automatically. Still pissed about BBB though, what a sham. Anyway, CC is now opening the "real" investigation where they're asking me for documentation now. Should be fairly easy since I never gave permission to charge that card. And I have emails saying they planned on fixing it and it wouldn't be too hard.

Oh, that loctited die stem? No, it was fucking JB WELD! Every moron knows not to threadlock dies together, but JB Weld!? Come on.

So now I get to send the pictures and all the correspondence and hopefully put this to rest. But CC company brought up one other point: they stole from my CC so I guess the next step is to file criminal charges with the county. Boy, I bet they fucking hate me with a passion.

Rest of you, steer clear of CH4D unless you wanna play fuck-fuck games over shoddy work, lies and refusal of service. Not to mention being blamed for totally strange shit. Wish I'd just ate the $1000 and bought the Dillon carbide die and been done. It's not like I don't have to work 10k cases or anything... Anyway, just another heads up for you guys who may be considering buying from them. The deals aren't worth it and apparently they can't or don't warranty their own work. At all.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Ok, i will have to go back and read. But at this point i will say this.

BBB is like a golf country club. Businesses do NOT have to be a member AND it is NOT an government oversite entity. It is in fact a business in it self. As long as the business in question pays its dues and remains in good standing with the BBB then you will lose. BBB = good old boys club.

 

[Strykervet]

Ok, i will have to go back and read. But at this point i will say this.

BBB is like a golf country club. Businesses do NOT have to be a member AND it is NOT an government oversite entity. It is in fact a business in it self. As long as the business in question pays its dues and remains in good standing with the BBB then you will lose. BBB = good old boys club.

You said it man. They didn't give a fart in the wind about the fact they stole money from me, and did a bait and switch with the warranty work.

Hopefully the CC will take care of it.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

By coincidence this is the shop I order ruptured case extractors. They are hard to find on Google. I always have to search my email to figure out who it was. We're gonna need a new shop to recommend for these.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Ok, i will have to go back and read. But at this point i will say this.

BBB is like a golf country club. Businesses do NOT have to be a member AND it is NOT an government oversite entity. It is in fact a business in it self. As long as the business in question pays its dues and remains in good standing with the BBB then you will lose. BBB = good old boys club.

Yep. The guy that built my fence has all kinds of complaints against him, even some class action lawsuits, yet has a A+ business rating from the BBB. My fence cost over $10k and is barely 2 years old but will have to be completely replaced soon. Nothing wrong with the build perse but the lumber he used was shit. I’ve never seen pressure treated wood twist and turn and do so bad in such a short amount of time. My old fence at my last house is 10 years old and looks the same now as it did 10 years ago. BBB is exactly as you described.

 

[Strykervet]

Yep. The guy that built my fence has all kinds of complaints against him, even some class action lawsuits, yet has a A+ business rating from the BBB. My fence cost over $10k and is barely 2 years old but will have to be completely replaced soon. Nothing wrong with the build perse but the lumber he used was shit. I’ve never seen pressure treated wood twist and turn and do so bad in such a short amount of time. My old fence at my last house is 10 years old and looks the same now as it did 10 years ago. BBB is exactly as you described.

Yeah, it's scam, right? They shield shitty businesses! Apparently "investigation" means checking to see if the company actually sent anything. Could be an empty box, that's all they check. Didn't give a flying fuck about the theft of funds, CC fraud or refusal to follow through with their warranty. In the complaint, I admitted they sent me replacements and the fucked up ones.

What's worse, is if they'd just been forthright and honest and called me about it, we could have probably come to an agreement or could have met halfway. Instead, they went to the mat over $78. Obviously they don't give a shit about repeat business (probably have come to not expect it in fact!) and it seems like they never heard of the internet before.

I think the CC company will end up taking the hit given the cost and associated cost of lost business, which in this case isn't fair either. You'd think CH4D would realize that $78 is a cheap price to pay (even if I were at fault) just for the repeat business and thumbs up.

Wish I'd gotten the M2 dies or the Dillon carbide and been done.

 

[Strykervet]

Okay, I think this is the final post. If this happens to you, keep on it. I just had to call CC about insurance billing me when it comes out of a check. Govt. shutdown delayed this. I have a document from them saying Feb. was coming out March 1. They refused to give me my refund. So I had to dispute it, not paying twice. BTW, this insurance company is by far the worst scam ever. I hate it but I'm stuck with it until 2020.

So while I'm on the phone with CC, they say they'll make good if it comes back they sided with the business, and I brought up this. I said they didn't, despite all the info sent and proof I had. Told 'em about this forum of people that don't agree with it.

And so she finally gave me my $78 back. Still pisses me off they aren't taking it from CH4D but I did get my money back. My advice is to stick with it if you get screwed. Keep calling back, keep bringing it up, eventually it'll get fixed. A pain in the ass, yeah, but at least I got my my money back.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
AND I found another place for custom work, Whidden, and just got my first 6.5G Dillon trim die back. It's nice looking, haven't used it yet, but it sizes to factory new brass specs and instead of a square window opening where the tool goes, it has a three venturi style cuts in it. Pretty slick. I hope they don't clog with long brass filings though. Very nice looking part. Custom die shop manager is nice and on top of it.

 

[Northfl]

stryker, you will like doing business with whidden. John is a good guy, hell of a shooter and just an all around nice guy.i Have been to his shop out in the south georgia country and talked with him on several occasions.

 

[jbrand11]

Had Whidden make some custom 375CT shell plates for my Dillon 50bmg press. Quality stuff and they were a pleasure to work with.

 

[Autofire]

Another vote for Whidden Gun Works. You will not go wrong.

 

[swage2712]

If the customer continues to dispute the charge the CC company will eventually honor the chargeback. The part that makes the transaction risky is it being card not present. They should've just honored the refund request. Now they're going to lose the $78 plus an additional $25 for the chargeback. The BBB is a business and members pay to be a member. You really have to screw up as a business and stop paying your membership for them to give you a bad rating.