Dirty barrel syndrome

[AllenOne1]

Shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor, Proof 24" SS barrel. I have noticed during the last few matches I have shot that a pattern has emerged with each target getting a little worse when comparing group size. Normally shoot between 30-40 rounds per match. Four rounds of 5 shots for score.

Yesterday the match conditions were a little tough and I shot more sighter rounds than normal. We shot 2 rounds of 10 for score unlimited sighters 1000 yds. First round I shot 10-12 rounds to sight in and to confirm accuracy to qualify for the match then 10 shots for score. Not a great target but about 1 moa. In the next round first round is on the sighter plate second shot to confirm is off the plate. I shot 10 shots to bring it in and confirm but seemed to be all over the place. Shot my 10 rounds for score and the target went to 2 moa. Total rounds fired 47. During this second round I was also experiencing some hard bolt action but then it cleared up. ??

You can save the "shooter sucks" comments if you want because I have already confirmed that issue is real. But if you need to throw them in I understand.

I have know for a while that this barrel does not like being dirty but assumed that it was more like 70-100 rounds now I think the barrel may be losing accuracy between 20-30 shots. I haven't tested this yet as a controlled test and here is the question. What yardage would you test your accuracy at? My first thought is 300 since I would see some impact separation and not as much wind effect.

Does anyone think it's odd that a barrel would start to open up that bad after 20 rounds? I know each one is different.

 

[rijndael]

With what powder does this happen?

 

[AllenOne1]

With what powder does this happen?

H4350

 

[MarkCO]

In my experience, a totally clean bore changes after 20 to 40 shots, goes through a transition and then settles back down after 50 to 150...lots of variables. Whatever those numbers are, yes, they get less and less as the bore gets more rounds on it.

 

[ShtrRdy]

You probably need to try and repeat this behavior on a calmer day at a shorter distance to see if it's really the rifle/ammo that is causing this.

 

[AllenOne1]

In my experience, a totally clean bore changes after 20 to 40 shots, goes through a transition and then settles back down after 50 to 150...lots of variables. Whatever those numbers are, yes, they get less and less as the bore gets more rounds on it.

Interesting. I have never heard that the number of rounds would get less as the barrel wears. This barrel now has 1670 rounds on it.

Seems like chasing a ghost some days.

 

[37L1]

Interesting. I have never heard that the number of rounds would get less as the barrel wears. This barrel now has 1670 rounds on it.

Seems like chasing a ghost some days.

Wouldn't hurt to clean and bore scope it.

 

[AllenOne1]

You probably need to try and repeat this behavior on a calmer day at a shorter distance to see if it's really the rifle/ammo that is causing this.

I totally agree. This needs to be tested to be sure. It could have been cold shooter yesterday because it was cold out there. Seemed like a circular wind pattern as you just couldn't stay with the changes.

I shot in the middle of the pack of shooters which is about normal for me, mid to high on the list. So I wasn't the only one having a little trouble.

 

[AllenOne1]

Wouldn't hurt to clean and bore scope it.

I will be doing that today. I clean it and check it with a borescope after every shooting session. Wondering now if I'm going to have to clean during the match, that is what I will try to verify.

 

[37L1]

I will be doing that today. I clean it and check it with a borescope after every shooting session. Wondering now if I'm going to have to clean during the match, that is what I will try to verify.

It would suck to have to clean during a match. Hope you find what's causing this.

 

[rustyinbend]

How many rounds through the barrel (total). Might be time to rebarrel ... a bore scope would tell you. I've got about 2500 rounds through my 6.5-CM Proof Research barrel ... it's back at LWRCI getting re-barelled right now because the same sort of thing happened to me where consistency degraded as more shots were fired in a range session.

 

[AllenOne1]

How many rounds through the barrel (total). Might be time to rebarrel ... a bore scope would tell you. I've got about 2500 rounds through my 6.5-CM Proof Research barrel ... it's back at LWRCI getting re-barelled right now because the same sort of thing happened to me where consistency degraded as more shots were fired in a range session.

Only 1670 rounds through this barrel. I wouldn't think it is time to rebarrel at this point. I really think it is related to the barrel cleaning, it seems to like being clean.

I just borescoped this barrel and it appears to be dirtier than I remember it being in the past with a lot of copper at the muzzle end. The brass isn't dirtier than normal though.

 

[rustyinbend]

Only 1670 rounds through this barrel. I wouldn't think it is time to rebarrel at this point. I really think it is related to the barrel cleaning, it seems to like being clean.

I just borescoped this barrel and it appears to be dirtier than I remember it being in the past with a lot of copper at the muzzle end. The brass isn't dirtier than normal though.

What does the chamber end look like? Lots of copper, fire-cracking, maybe a carbon ring? Copper at the muzzle is an easy problem to solve. Carbon rings and fire-cracking ... not so easy.

 

[AllenOne1]

What does the chamber end look like? Lots of copper, fire-cracking, maybe a carbon ring? Copper at the muzzle is an easy problem to solve. Carbon rings and fire-cracking ... not so easy.

The chamber end has a good coating of carbon along with copper streaking. No carbon ring. Fire cracking is present but not extreme no missing pieces out of the rifling yet.

I guess I should have shot some pictures of it but didn't because the computer I have the borescope connected to is pretty slow. It's the garage computer lol.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

If I had to hazard a guess, it’s probably a combination of things. But more testing needed to narrow it down. Too many possibilities with the info we know at the time.

Also probably a good idea to check out long range BR forums and see what kind of cleaning regiment they use and what kind of dispersion they see as barrel fouls more.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Clean the barrel with a bronze brush, using a good solvent, I use free all or break free clp.
Measure the brush with your calipers to confirm that it will reach the grooves in the barrel because brushes
do not last long.

Getting the copper out is easy, the carbon is another matter altogether as nothing removes
the hard carbon deposits in the barrel without mechanical cleaning despite what the label on
the bottle of bore cleaner states.

Do it in steps, clean carbon then clean copper and repeat let soak repeat.

Some say shoot until accuracy decays then clean, by then there is so much carbon
in the barrel is very difficult to get out.

 

[rustyinbend]

The chamber end has a good coating of carbon along with copper streaking. No carbon ring. Fire cracking is present but not extreme no missing pieces out of the rifling yet.

I guess I should have shot some pictures of it but didn't because the computer I have the borescope connected to is pretty slow. It's the garage computer lol.

Interestingly ... the two barrels I've had to replace as a result of too many rounds through them, showed a muzzle end that was pristine and beautiful ... and a chamber end that was fire-cracked and totally nasty on the bore-scope. This would lead me to believe that you need to spend a ton of time de-fouling the half of the rifle on the muzzle end, as looking worse there than the chamber end seems to be anomalous to me. Just my thoughts. I'd plug the barrel and soak it in C4 for 24 hours, then scrub it like crazy, followed by a few passes and light scrub with Iossa. After the Iossa comes out, the barrel should feel really smooth when putting a dry patch through it ... that's how you know you did it right.

 

[Coyote-6]

This might be a crazy suggestion, but it kinda sounds like your cleaning too often? You're working through the barrel fowling after a cleaning which will change A LOT. Maybe if you've run out of all other options, try running a session with 200 rounds and track if your groups settle.

I know plenty of competitors and other shooting pros who won't do a "full clean" until well past 600-800 rounds.

Again, not for everyone, but might be worth checking out rather than spending the coin on a new barrel.

 

[rustyinbend]

This might be a crazy suggestion, but it kinda sounds like your cleaning too often? You're working through the barrel fowling after a cleaning which will change A LOT. Maybe if you've run out of all other options, try running a session with 200 rounds and track if your groups settle.

I know plenty of competitors and other shooting pros who won't do a "full clean" until well past 600-800 rounds.

Again, not for everyone, but might be worth checking out rather than spending the coin on a new barrel.

Not a bad suggestion, but I'd do it after a really good cleaning where you addressed the issues you noted above. That said, I agree that "Cleaning the Accuracy out of your Rifle" ... really is a "thing".

 

[AllenOne1]

Clean the barrel with a bronze brush, using a good solvent, I use free all or break free clp.
Measure the brush with your calipers to confirm that it will reach the grooves in the barrel because brushes
do not last long.

Getting the copper out is easy, the carbon is another matter altogether as nothing removes
the hard carbon deposits in the barrel without mechanical cleaning despite what the label on
the bottle of bore cleaner states.

Do it in steps, clean carbon then clean copper and repeat let soak repeat.

Some say shoot until accuracy decays then clean, by then there is so much carbon
in the barrel is very difficult to get out.

Normal cleaning routine:
I clean by starting with Bore Tech Eliminator to get the crud out and start working on the copper then I will usually get some Bore Tech C4 in there to soften the carbon a bit. There is soak time built in there as well. I'll then patch it out and take a look with the borescope. It never is clean enough on the chamber end so I then switch to JB bore paste to get the last of the hard thin layer of carbon out. I then swab it out with Ed's Red to clean out the JB. Borescope again to verify. It's pretty darn clean when I get done. This can take a few hours total time.

 

[AllenOne1]

Interestingly ... the two barrels I've had to replace as a result of too many rounds through them, showed a muzzle end that was pristine and beautiful ... and a chamber end that was fire-cracked and totally nasty on the bore-scope. This would lead me to believe that you need to spend a ton of time de-fouling the half of the rifle on the muzzle end, as looking worse there than the chamber end seems to be anomalous to me. Just my thoughts. I'd plug the barrel and soak it in C4 for 24 hours, then scrub it like crazy, followed by a few passes and light scrub with Iossa. After the Iossa comes out, the barrel should feel really smooth when putting a dry patch through it ... that's how you know you did it right.

I didn't mean to mislead you on this, the muzzle end is not in worse condition than the chamber end by a long shot. What I was talking about was the heavier than normal layer of copper on the muzzle end. I just don't remember seeing that much copper build up but I don't always scope the barrel before I start cleaning. It does feel really smooth on those last patches just like you are saying.

 

[AllenOne1]

Here are some pictures after cleaning working from the chamber to the crown. The spot on the chamber is the worst area and the only area that I see those divots.

 

[gigamortis]

I'd look toward sending a few of the Tubbs throat maintenance rounds down the pipe to see if your accuracy pattern improves.

 

[Tempest 455]

Every barrel is different. That being said. I shoot FTR and a good barrel will hold .50 MOA for 80 shots during the entire day before cleaning. Most don't clean until next day/match.

 

[fdkay]

Normal cleaning routine:
I clean by starting with Bore Tech Eliminator to get the crud out and start working on the copper then I will usually get some Bore Tech C4 in there to soften the carbon a bit. There is soak time built in there as well. I'll then patch it out and take a look with the borescope. It never is clean enough on the chamber end so I then switch to JB bore paste to get the last of the hard thin layer of carbon out. I then swab it out with Ed's Red to clean out the JB. Borescope again to verify. It's pretty darn clean when I get done. This can take a few hours total time.

Wow.
That is a pretty intensive cleaning routine, especially the JB paste. Seems to me that using an abrasive is a good way to shorten barrel life.
I don't even brush much, but when I do, I prefer nylon, as you'll get false indications of copper when you use a bronze brush.
You shoot far more than I though.
Using a solvent that can be left in for extended periods is a good way of softening things up.
The tried and true number 9 works good here, but so would the Ed's red.
Let that soak in overnight with the muzzle slightly depressed

 

[Feniks Technologies]

As long as cleaning *properly* it’s all but impossible to clean too often.

The smallest groups in the world are shot buy guys who clean every few shots and basically keep the barrel looking new.

Now, it’s possible to damage a barrel from incorrectly using a tool or chemical. But not from cleaning too often.

 

[bmicek]

This doesn’t answer your question in any way, but you have enough rounds through the barrel that if it were my rifle, I wouldn’t feel guilty about just spinning a new barrel on. You may be putting a few hundred more rounds through the barrel and not find the answer. And if the rifle truly does have a narrow window of where it shoots well in terms of it being clean, that’d be too finicky for me to keep it around. After all, it does cost money for you to put rounds down range to diagnose it.

I realize this is the easy way out and definitely isn’t how we should attempt to solve all our problems, just buying something new. But like I said, if it were my rifle I wouldn’t feel guilty one bit. You’ve put some rounds through it.

Another consideration that may be something to ponder is maybe you’re so close to being on the edge of your “node” that a small velocity change higher or lower may be enough to cause it to seem finicky. And cleaning it brings it back into the node just enough to make it normal again.

Like others have said, there’s so many potential issues you could be having. It’s kinda just testing them one by one until you have it dialed in.

 

[AllenOne1]

This doesn’t answer your question in any way, but you have enough rounds through the barrel that if it were my rifle, I wouldn’t feel guilty about just spinning a new barrel on. You may be putting a few hundred more rounds through the barrel and not find the answer. And if the rifle truly does have a narrow window of where it shoots well in terms of it being clean, that’d be too finicky for me to keep it around. After all, it does cost money for you to put rounds down range to diagnose it.

I realize this is the easy way out and definitely isn’t how we should attempt to solve all our problems, just buying something new. But like I said, if it were my rifle I wouldn’t feel guilty one bit. You’ve put some rounds through it.

Another consideration that may be something to ponder is maybe you’re so close to being on the edge of your “node” that a small velocity change higher or lower may be enough to cause it to seem finicky. And cleaning it brings it back into the node just enough to make it normal again.

Like others have said, there’s so many potential issues you could be having. It’s kinda just testing them one by one until you have it dialed in.

You add some very good points to the conversation. I hadn't even considered that I might be moving in and out of the node.

 

[Baron23]

I then switch to JB bore paste to get the last of the hard thin layer of carbon out.

After every outing? Wow, that's a lot of abrasive use to me, but I'm an idiot so take that in to account.

I have a Proof SS MTU at 25" in 6.5 CM and I'm at 1,900 rounds and its still holding speed and accuracy but I will be looking at it closely as it approaches 2,500 rounds. I would think that 1,600 rounds isn't worn out unless you are sending them at Warp 5...and even then perhaps?

Best of luck.

 

[Tempest 455]

Don't know how many saw the podcast with Bryan Litz (Applied Ballistics, Berger Bullets) who has designed some of the best bullets on the market. He said in the lab during testing, they clean the bore every 100 rounds with abrasive cleaner, like clock work.

Interesting comments.

 

[AllenOne1]

After every outing? Wow, that's a lot of abrasive use to me, but I'm an idiot so take that in to account.

I have a Proof SS MTU at 25" in 6.5 CM and I'm at 1,900 rounds and its still holding speed and accuracy but I will be looking at it closely as it approaches 2,500 rounds. I would think that 1,600 rounds isn't worn out unless you are sending them at Warp 5...and even then perhaps?

Best of luck.

I may be over cleaning it I'm no expert on it. I don't send them too fast I run about 2750.

 

[Baron23]

I don't send them too fast I run about 2750

Yeah, that's not too fast at all.

Dunno, mate. Like yourself, I'm no expert on cleaning but I do try to follow Frank Green of Bartlein's recommendations that he has made many times on this board.

I clean every two hundred rounds or so....precision hasn't fallen off, just trying to avoid too much carbon build up and the dreaded carbon ring.

My throat also has fire cracking....I mean, yeah...1,900 rounds and it will.

I do use BoreTech products incl soaking a bore mop in their carbon remover and shoving it into the throat/first part of rifling.

Compared to your bore scope pics, mine would look like there is still carbon in the fire cracks (because there is) but I have a hard time seeing how this "below grade" carbon would impact my shots vice the potential to screw it up with too aggressive of cleaning. But...let's revisit that I'm an idiot and there are others on this board far more expert than I.

Cheers

 

[GBMaryland]

That's nothing... you need to clean it when it looks like this...

(That's the barrel I was telling you about yesterday that required Sweets... AND I had to warm it up.)

 

[AllenOne1]

Yeah, that's not too fast at all.

Dunno, mate. Like yourself, I'm no expert on cleaning but I do try to follow Frank Green of Bartlein's recommendations that he has made many times on this board.

I clean every two hundred rounds or so....precision hasn't fallen off, just trying to avoid too much carbon build up and the dreaded carbon ring.

My throat also has fire cracking....I mean, yeah...1,900 rounds and it will.

I do use BoreTech products incl soaking a bore mop in their carbon remover and shoving it into the throat/first part of rifling.

Compared to your bore scope pics, mine would like like there is still carbon in the fire cracks (because there is) but I have a hard time seeing how this "below grade" carbon would impact my shots vice the potential to screw it up with too aggressive of cleaning. But...let's revisit that I'm an idiot and there are others on this board far more expert than I.

View attachment 7817586

Cheers

You nailed it. How clean is clean? Before the cheap borescopes came out I'm thinking clean wasn't nearly as clean as it is now. Good or Bad?

 

[GBMaryland]

I agree.

I clean out the carbon, and I clean out the basic copper.

Usually, only if I'm going to store it for a bit without using it. (...and I run an oiled patch down the barrel if that's the case.)

 

[AllenOne1]

That's nothing... you need to clean it when it looks like this...View attachment 7817588

(That's the barrel I was telling you about yesterday that required Sweets... AND I had to warm it up.)

View attachment 7817591

Don't let the copper miners see that thing. Cleaned up nice though. The copper distribution is interesting in that barrel I would expect traces of copper in the seemingly clean areas.

 

[Baron23]

That's nothing... you need to clean it when it looks like this...View attachment 7817588

(That's the barrel I was telling you about yesterday that required Sweets... AND I had to warm it up.)

View attachment 7817591

You slob...you don't deserve that rifle!! haha jk of course Looks like that barrel was electroplated with copper. Wow.

Yeah, you said something about Sweet's and a barrel...I think....but actually don't remember (this getting old is getting old)

Which barrel was this? And you warmed the barrel up...or microwaved the Sweet's? haha

 

[GBMaryland]

1980s Winchester Model 70 barrel - 375 H&H - Lots of machining marks.

 

[HousePlant]

Maybe use a solvent generally intended for muzzle loaders in the barrel (the foaming kind that you let sit for an hour or two).

 

[BoltRunner]

I would go to my loads first, how consistent is your powder charge, seating depth, velocity...? I didn't see any info on these being handloads or store bought ammo other than you running H4350. Do you know if velocity has dropped recently...? A decent velocity swing is gonna make some difference especially at 1000yds... Do not use your borescope pics to determine if your going to yank the barrel off cause its "Shot Out"... I would clean the hell out of it and put it on a chrono for 30 - 40 rds to the point you were seeing issues. From a perfectly clean barrel to 100rds you should not be seeing groups open up and heavy bolt lift from time to time just from the barrel getting 100rds dirty. As other guys have said most rifles take a few rounds to settle after being clean to fouled up but they shouldn't open up again after 50rds due to the barrel being dirty I don't think this is your issue IMO.

 

[AllenOne1]

Totally agree a borescope will not tell you when to replace a barrel about all it does is show you how clean or dirty it is. Any marks scratches or pits are so magnified they look like the barrel it about to explode or something.

I feel good about the ammo, they are handloads of H4350 dropped with an auto trickler, seating is pretty consistent within a couple of thousands (not that I'm crazy about my seating die), seating 140 gr ELD-Ms, primers are seated evenly. The one area that I want to recheck is velocity to make sure it hasn't made a big change. I plan to strap on the magnetospeed and check that first thing.

This barrel usually settles in in 2-3 shots. The bolt issue was a surprise, it acted up for a few rounds and then the issue went away.

 

[Baron23]

1980s Winchester Model 70 barrel - 375 H&H - Lots of machining marks.

Ah yes, now I remember....and what was it that I had for breakfast! haha

Cheers

 

[rothgyr]

I know a guy who cleans his gun after every 100 rounds at least. I think his key to consistency is brake cleaner. Once your bore is clean, get EVERYTHING out of there. No oils, no solvents, etc. He just uses Hoppes 9 equivalents, not really any copper solvents.

Oil in the bore will really screw with your groups. Brake cleaner, man. Why had I never heard of this until a few weeks ago?

 

[lloydx2]

If your load stops shooting when it gets hot, back it down. Your barrel isn't done. Staying on top of the carbon is important
Especially if you're running a tight neck chamber. Using a good bore guide will help with land wiping. With most good barrels
copper should not be a problem. Unless the leade looks like it's been cut with a drill bit. Like the one in the pic. Don't be
afraid to ask other shooters how it went for them during your relay. Lots of variables at 1K. You should test periodically at sorter
range with no wind to confirm. And know you gun. No second guessing.