Sure I do I just don't feel like a level is necessary to prevent it.
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Do I need a bubble level?
- Thread starter Jayjay1
- Start date
Sure I do I just don't feel like a level is necessary to prevent it.
It’s not that the people who don’t rely on a level don’t believe cant has an effect on the bullets impact. It’s that provided you have trained and have a good position, you don’t need it to tell whether or not your rifle is canted because your inner position tells you that.
The “anti-bubble level” people are just saying that a level doesn’t help you shoot better. It’s a bandaid or a training tool to give you a visual confirmation that your position is the same-but! It isn’t as accurate as your inner ear or any of the tools your body already comes with. That’s what lowlight has been saying. Training and perfect repetitions will beat having a bubble level every time.
The “anti-bubble level” people are just saying that a level doesn’t help you shoot better. It’s a bandaid or a training tool to give you a visual confirmation that your position is the same-but! It isn’t as accurate as your inner ear or any of the tools your body already comes with. That’s what lowlight has been saying. Training and perfect repetitions will beat having a bubble level every time.
It’s all about what is acceptable. If I’m shooting a 400 yard 10 inch plate, I can be looser with how perfect I need to be. But for example in this weekend’s MPA PRS match, we shot a stage that was positional off a rail and 717 yards on a 45% IPSC, so I pay much closer attention. However on another stage that was 800+ yards on various sized IPSC plates from a modified prone position off a bench, 105 seconds is PLENTY of time to spot shots, check cant, watch mirage/flags, etc without worrying about time.
Shooters can’t more with levels on their rifle than without.
They check it wrong and then subconsciously shift off target, I have documented this in class after class, as well most can’t when running the bolt, they add it in and miss it, over and over, even with levels mounted because they don’t understand it.
Almost all newer shooters add a level, it’s a religion, thanks to companies like vortex you see levels on the scopes all the time. Just look above, RPR budget, probably no real training but all the toys.
You can easily see if you are adding to the wind call, especially when no two use the same and running classes with 20 guys on the line, all with the same rifle, optics and Ammo, you see the results and who does what to get those results. In a government class of 20 guys all shooting a 308 the variation is 1.5 Mils on the low end and 3.5 Mils on the high. Human factor if you train that the rest follows.
I teach, I record, I analyze and I have experience beyond the fool taking computer data for gospel. I find it interesting I just stated the SD numbers are wrong, and you’re quoting them. Gunsite said 8.4 inches at 1k, you say 11.4” and your read the Boatright paper on here, observed was 6”. It’s wrong, human factor is the biggest variation we have. Why do some people hit more than others, the human factor, add in all the widgets you want the better shooter wins. SD is 1.25% elevation give or a take the conditions because the wind direction matters too, as does it’s speed. There is more to it than twist rate. Spin does not bleed off like velocity and with modern powders and bullets we maintain our velocity farther than ever, so SD is smaller than the 1950 formula being used to provide your data. You talk of old school,thinking and you’re using 50,s and 60,s formulas. Lame.
Canting can be fixed by a bipod change alone, go measure how square your Harris is, look at the legs, the springs, it’s part of it. I was shooting Gunsite with Marc who I teach the Alaska classes with who was my Platoon SGT in the USMC and Honor grad of the instructor course. No level, but once on target and settled in, he instructed me to lock down his bipod. ELR as taught at Gunsite is a team endeavor like sniping. The spotter tends to the shooter, the shooters job is to run the gun. Part of it, lock the rifle straight. It’s the movement between the shots that fucks guys.
Have a group a 100 that is strung, 2 in one hole, then 2 in another hole and maybe one thrown some where close, canting. Guys line up Shot 1 and fire, run the bolt, ignore the level, fire canted, they run the bolt, fire even more canted, run the bolt, see the can’t, check level, fire Shot 4, run the bolt can’t slightly and fire Five.
The uneducated shooter misses the mark because they don’t understand the process. Of course most people are doing it wrong, 99% have no formal training. Muddling through and just repeating the same mistakes over and over, on top of one of the longest running games of Telephone, stacking on bad info over and over. Regurgitating the same old and tired talking points as a replacement for experience.
They check it wrong and then subconsciously shift off target, I have documented this in class after class, as well most can’t when running the bolt, they add it in and miss it, over and over, even with levels mounted because they don’t understand it.
Almost all newer shooters add a level, it’s a religion, thanks to companies like vortex you see levels on the scopes all the time. Just look above, RPR budget, probably no real training but all the toys.
You can easily see if you are adding to the wind call, especially when no two use the same and running classes with 20 guys on the line, all with the same rifle, optics and Ammo, you see the results and who does what to get those results. In a government class of 20 guys all shooting a 308 the variation is 1.5 Mils on the low end and 3.5 Mils on the high. Human factor if you train that the rest follows.
I teach, I record, I analyze and I have experience beyond the fool taking computer data for gospel. I find it interesting I just stated the SD numbers are wrong, and you’re quoting them. Gunsite said 8.4 inches at 1k, you say 11.4” and your read the Boatright paper on here, observed was 6”. It’s wrong, human factor is the biggest variation we have. Why do some people hit more than others, the human factor, add in all the widgets you want the better shooter wins. SD is 1.25% elevation give or a take the conditions because the wind direction matters too, as does it’s speed. There is more to it than twist rate. Spin does not bleed off like velocity and with modern powders and bullets we maintain our velocity farther than ever, so SD is smaller than the 1950 formula being used to provide your data. You talk of old school,thinking and you’re using 50,s and 60,s formulas. Lame.
Canting can be fixed by a bipod change alone, go measure how square your Harris is, look at the legs, the springs, it’s part of it. I was shooting Gunsite with Marc who I teach the Alaska classes with who was my Platoon SGT in the USMC and Honor grad of the instructor course. No level, but once on target and settled in, he instructed me to lock down his bipod. ELR as taught at Gunsite is a team endeavor like sniping. The spotter tends to the shooter, the shooters job is to run the gun. Part of it, lock the rifle straight. It’s the movement between the shots that fucks guys.
Have a group a 100 that is strung, 2 in one hole, then 2 in another hole and maybe one thrown some where close, canting. Guys line up Shot 1 and fire, run the bolt, ignore the level, fire canted, they run the bolt, fire even more canted, run the bolt, see the can’t, check level, fire Shot 4, run the bolt can’t slightly and fire Five.
The uneducated shooter misses the mark because they don’t understand the process. Of course most people are doing it wrong, 99% have no formal training. Muddling through and just repeating the same mistakes over and over, on top of one of the longest running games of Telephone, stacking on bad info over and over. Regurgitating the same old and tired talking points as a replacement for experience.
That may work on your belly, but in PRS, in weird positions, it’s not a solution for all shooting problems.
Here’s another thing that doesn’t make sense. “Your brain/inner ear knows when it’s balanced” seems to be the recurring theme here, so someone show me a photo of them shooting a scoped rifle with their heard straight up and down. You realize that’s impossible because the stock is in the way, right? You HAVE to cant your head to look through the scope...
No you don’t many adjustable cheeks are able to shift to the side, do you need a picture.
In PRS you’re doing it wrong if you think the level helps you. The average range is 400, the few beyond are not a factor.
26 pound, 6mm with a flat bottom and sandbag being engaged via a 8oz trigger is not being canted. They do as much as possible to remove the shooter it’s gay.
In PRS you’re doing it wrong if you think the level helps you. The average range is 400, the few beyond are not a factor.
26 pound, 6mm with a flat bottom and sandbag being engaged via a 8oz trigger is not being canted. They do as much as possible to remove the shooter it’s gay.
Yes, please show me a photo with a stock shifted so far to the side that your head is now perpendicular to the ground and straight up.
Average distance 400? Point me in the direction of that match, would love to shoot it.
On the way home from MPA now, certainly higher than 400 yard average, have shot K&M multiple years running, also more than a 400 yard average. We can agree to disagree I suppose because I certainly don’t care enough to show the math. But I do care to see a stock with your head straight up and down. If I google image you, I see a lot of photos with your head canted on a rifle.
I suppose it all boils down to personal preference. I know it’s saved me a few points, and I want every point I can get. The non-believers will never believe, and the believers will continue on. It is what it is.
I suppose it all boils down to personal preference. I know it’s saved me a few points, and I want every point I can get. The non-believers will never believe, and the believers will continue on. It is what it is.
Lol you just never bothered to look at the average range I have,
You can see the difference in head positions and the fact you can’t figure it out speaks volumes as does the fact you completely ignored my post in detail and want to change the subject tonshot that has nothing to do with canting.
I will see what pictures I have but most are from the side and you can see the difference between a head canted and one not so much, a tiny amount is not throwing you off as much as other positions, not to mention most pictures of me are shooting rifles that are not mine but demo review rifles.
If you don’t realize stocks with adjustable cheeks do shift to the side you’re dumber than I perceive you to be, cheeks shift over for a reason, the fact you haven’t seen it says a lot.
You can see the difference in head positions and the fact you can’t figure it out speaks volumes as does the fact you completely ignored my post in detail and want to change the subject tonshot that has nothing to do with canting.
I will see what pictures I have but most are from the side and you can see the difference between a head canted and one not so much, a tiny amount is not throwing you off as much as other positions, not to mention most pictures of me are shooting rifles that are not mine but demo review rifles.
If you don’t realize stocks with adjustable cheeks do shift to the side you’re dumber than I perceive you to be, cheeks shift over for a reason, the fact you haven’t seen it says a lot.
Yep, just a dummy here. You typed so many words and yet said nothing, why would I reference any of it?
See below. Not level...so now you’ll tell me your brain knows what 2 degrees feels like? Who’s got a protractor? This is silly at this point. You’re infallible, heading to practiscore to make sure the infallibility is substantiated...brb.
See below. Not level...so now you’ll tell me your brain knows what 2 degrees feels like? Who’s got a protractor? This is silly at this point. You’re infallible, heading to practiscore to make sure the infallibility is substantiated...brb.
Yep, just a dummy here. You typed so many words and yet said nothing, why would I reference any of it?
See below. Not level...so now you’ll tell me your brain knows what 2 degrees feels like? Who’s got a protractor? This is silly at this point. You’re infallible, heading to practiscore to make sure the infallibility is substantiated...brb.
Lowlight without a level , i'll stand down range no problem.
I love how the guys with no education want to dictate “cause it’s all the know” regurgitating the same shit over and over, meanwhile, not only do I take classes, even today, I teach, and in doing so I see things in vivid colors as well as understand how to correct the problems. I get paid to shoot, how about you.
We start classes before any instruction is given like this,
And end them like this,
We start classes before any instruction is given like this,
And end them like this,
We’re talking apples and oranges here.
If “locking down the bipod square” and “measuring the legs and springs” of our bipod is ANY part of your solution, then you’re thinking of multiple shot strings from the same FLAT position.
In that case, just like Frank’s reticle photo, yes, of course all of this position stuff works.
Try that somewhere like the photo I posted in the mountains.
There is nowhere flat! Your perfectly measured square and locked bipod is now a hinderance!
On a man or an elk you usually only get one shot. There is no advantage to spending time locking in a bipod for shot to shot consistency. Quickly double checking a level is far faster than futsing with a bipod.
There’s a picture of Jacob Bynum at a Rifles Only course in Utah, harnessed to the cliff, prone, and head down at a steep angle. That’s my rifle he’s holding, and I can tell you that nobody’s inner ear voodoo floaties were very helpful. (The angle was steep but not vertical like one photo makes it look).
I exclusively run Spuhr mounts these days. They come with a level whether I want it or not. I’m not hanging any extra shit off my gun. It helps sometimes. Your AO may not provide any opportunities for their usefulness. Mine does.
When I was a Deputy, rescue lines and life vests were always nearby. A city guy could say there’s no need for that stuff... and he’d be right, for HIS situation.
If “locking down the bipod square” and “measuring the legs and springs” of our bipod is ANY part of your solution, then you’re thinking of multiple shot strings from the same FLAT position.
In that case, just like Frank’s reticle photo, yes, of course all of this position stuff works.
Try that somewhere like the photo I posted in the mountains.
There is nowhere flat! Your perfectly measured square and locked bipod is now a hinderance!
On a man or an elk you usually only get one shot. There is no advantage to spending time locking in a bipod for shot to shot consistency. Quickly double checking a level is far faster than futsing with a bipod.
There’s a picture of Jacob Bynum at a Rifles Only course in Utah, harnessed to the cliff, prone, and head down at a steep angle. That’s my rifle he’s holding, and I can tell you that nobody’s inner ear voodoo floaties were very helpful. (The angle was steep but not vertical like one photo makes it look).
I exclusively run Spuhr mounts these days. They come with a level whether I want it or not. I’m not hanging any extra shit off my gun. It helps sometimes. Your AO may not provide any opportunities for their usefulness. Mine does.
When I was a Deputy, rescue lines and life vests were always nearby. A city guy could say there’s no need for that stuff... and he’d be right, for HIS situation.
That rifle in the picture is a Desert Tech it was posed and I didn’t shoot it lol
Desert tech have a solid stock, it wasn’t mine the owner was the photographer
Desert tech have a solid stock, it wasn’t mine the owner was the photographer
For the record I’m fully aware cheek risers (some of them) can be moved and shifted in multiple different planes. However, I’m not aware of any widely used stock that shifts so far out of the way to have my head be level. You jaw bone would still contact the stock under the cheek riser. Show me a picture...your eye would physically need to be where your ear is.
Velayo gets paid to shoot, has credentials as well, and uses a level. Is he regurgitating info or untrained?
Velayo gets paid to shoot, has credentials as well, and uses a level. Is he regurgitating info or untrained?
You’re an idiot and want to talk all or nothing,
Your head has varying degrees and you can train yourself, your ears still work, it’s no different with a level you have .8 degrees of variation in between the lines you tool, watch Thomas Hauglands video asshole he demonstrates his ability to be consistently .2 degrees accurate versus the .8 of the bubble.
Now take your vullshit PRs ass outta here as I am tired of you and the stupidity you bring to the discussion. Guys who only value they score in a game.
Gunwerks sells levels I would wear one too if I was there.
Your head has varying degrees and you can train yourself, your ears still work, it’s no different with a level you have .8 degrees of variation in between the lines you tool, watch Thomas Hauglands video asshole he demonstrates his ability to be consistently .2 degrees accurate versus the .8 of the bubble.
Now take your vullshit PRs ass outta here as I am tired of you and the stupidity you bring to the discussion. Guys who only value they score in a game.
Gunwerks sells levels I would wear one too if I was there.
I’d carry a tripod in the mountains that way I can set the rifle to afford me the best shot, if you don’t trust your head carry a string with a small weight, it will point to gravity and that is all the bullet cares about.
You can even attach it to the tripod.
You can even attach it to the tripod.
Phil doesn’t believe in free recoil too much. Many others do. So, who’s right?
During PRS Afghanistan I never had a bubble level.
A miss is usually many little things that add up (unless you are just way the fuck off to begin with). A slight can't isn't any more/less problematic compared to your body position, rearward pull, head weight on stock, wind that you cant see 60% of the way, a target that decides to start moving .000002 seconds before you pull the trigger or your trigger pull in general from shot to shot.
Why are we so worried about a fucking bubble level and can't so much? Shit, at some point depending on which way you're canting, you may actually be subconsciously negating mythical spin drift.
A miss is usually many little things that add up (unless you are just way the fuck off to begin with). A slight can't isn't any more/less problematic compared to your body position, rearward pull, head weight on stock, wind that you cant see 60% of the way, a target that decides to start moving .000002 seconds before you pull the trigger or your trigger pull in general from shot to shot.
Why are we so worried about a fucking bubble level and can't so much? Shit, at some point depending on which way you're canting, you may actually be subconsciously negating mythical spin drift.
It’s called consistency you fools, followed up by repeatability
It’s training your body and your mind to do the same thing the same way regardless of the situations. It’s a basic fundamental lesson. Repeat the fundamentals over and over until you can’t get them wrong.
If you find every time you check level you need to see it to fix it, you are resetting your brain and never learning the lesson. You are breaking the neural pathway, cause the level said you were wrong and the brain discarded the info that got you there. But you never fix it cause it’s your shooting aid and not your training aid.
You need the crutch to cross the street as you never tried walking alone
Think about it
It’s training your body and your mind to do the same thing the same way regardless of the situations. It’s a basic fundamental lesson. Repeat the fundamentals over and over until you can’t get them wrong.
If you find every time you check level you need to see it to fix it, you are resetting your brain and never learning the lesson. You are breaking the neural pathway, cause the level said you were wrong and the brain discarded the info that got you there. But you never fix it cause it’s your shooting aid and not your training aid.
You need the crutch to cross the street as you never tried walking alone
Think about it
Lol exactly. There is no Perfect instructor and they don’t all teach from the same book. Lucky for Frank it’s my turn to drive the last leg home from one of those pesky PRS matches so I’m out.
Also, your example that your head is canted and therefore your vestibular sense is therefore invalid, is not a good one.
Our head isn’t canted enough to matter.
Case in point, if you turn the lights out and cock your head sideways while sitting in a chair. If someone turns that chair left or right, you are able to know which way it is being turned. You would also be able to distinguish up and down as well. Even though your head is canted.
There’s a reason you can have a target down range that is canted but you can see that your reticle is not level and something is wrong if you use the target to plum your reticle.
This can all be done with your head turned sideways on the rifle if you wanted.
If I correctly understand what you're saying, I think you may have overlooked a factor: The movement is equal to the sine of the angle multiplied by the distance between the pivot and what you're moving. The sine of 2 degrees is 0.035, so 0.030 of movement causes 2 degrees of cant only if what you're moving is 7/8 of an inch above the pivot point.
If you're talking about movement of the reticle -- which is much further than 7/8" above the pivot point -- you'll have to move it a lot further than 0.30" to get 2 degrees of cant.
For example, my bipod is a model that pivots around the center of the bore. My scope's reticle is 3.39" above the center of the bore, so a two-degree cant will move the crosshairs 3.39 x sin(2 degrees) = 3.39 x 0.035 = 0.12 inches, or about 1/8".
For a standard bipod whose pivot is a couple inches below the barrel -- so the reticle is, say, six inches above the pivot point -- you don't get 2 degrees of cant until you've moved the crosshairs almost 1/4". That's a lot more than 30 thousandths, and I imagine that most here can maintain that level of stability.
EDIT: Hmm, I see the conversation has moved on since I started writing this post. It probably doesn't really add anything at this point, but I already took the time to pull my rifle out and measure its scope height, so I'm leaving this post up.
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Can I pull my intro question back?
Don't worry, no one will remember who started this thread.
It's not like you started another MIL vs MOA or "what scope for 3k yards under $67 should I get?", thread.
P.S. Buy a Barrett MRAD. Spotter 60 Masterrace. GBPSWE. @sterlingshooter
That's why you have to use reputable search engines, like Lycos and Dogpile. Come on now...
Hi,
Translation from GPBSWE to Commoner English = With proper bone support and a distinguished marksman tab a Daewoo converted to a bolt action aka MRAD can beat an Accuracy International with Comp Trigger?
Sincerely,
Theis
Only when shooting prone, with a MRT leather sling, while wearing your approved shooting jacket.
You have to view this in terms of a 180 degree plane. If the bubble has moved .030 in either direction then the scope has moved the same .030 since they are both on the same axis. When I shift the rifle enough to move the scope/reticle .250" away from vertical like you are suggesting the reticle is canted way more than 2 degrees, looks more like 15 degrees.
Oh, wait. You're talking about a 0.030" movement of the BUBBLE within the spirit level? I thought you were talking about the movement of the rifle in space.
The correspondence between rotation and bubble motion depends on the size and shape of the spirit level. So yeah, I completely agree with you that a 0.030" movement of the bubble could mean 2 degrees (or 1 degree or 10 degrees).
But a 2-degree rotation still corresponds to a 1/4" movement of the crosshairs in space, so I still believe that it isn't unusual for a competitor to be able to hold the rifle steady within 2 degrees of what his spirit level or Spidey sense tells him is level.
Yes you are correct. And my point was just that there is still always going to be inaccuracies using the levels as well as variances between the levels themselves, enough to cause the 2 degree cant that we are talking about which some but not all of us are capable of identifying when shooting.
I don't buy in to every number and equation for a couple reasons. One, there are far too many variables in this game to take everything for face value and two, what I have observed on targets over the years has shown me otherwise. Example being years ago I dialed windage at 1k any time I was shooting a .338 Lapua. Ballistic software always suggested I needed far more windage than what I was seeing on target, and I believe it to be because the wind has less of an effect on a 300 gr projectile due to its sheer mass alone that no ballistic software can account for. This was a full value wind across the range.
So when some suggested that 2 degrees of cant throws the impact off 15" at 1k, regardless of what the math suggests it should be, I would be hesitant to change anything I'm doing to worry about it. Right now I'm still capable of walking in a straight line, when I can no longer do that I'll start looking at levels when I shoot.
I don't buy in to every number and equation for a couple reasons. One, there are far too many variables in this game to take everything for face value and two, what I have observed on targets over the years has shown me otherwise. Example being years ago I dialed windage at 1k any time I was shooting a .338 Lapua. Ballistic software always suggested I needed far more windage than what I was seeing on target, and I believe it to be because the wind has less of an effect on a 300 gr projectile due to its sheer mass alone that no ballistic software can account for. This was a full value wind across the range.
So when some suggested that 2 degrees of cant throws the impact off 15" at 1k, regardless of what the math suggests it should be, I would be hesitant to change anything I'm doing to worry about it. Right now I'm still capable of walking in a straight line, when I can no longer do that I'll start looking at levels when I shoot.
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To be fair, how do you know it was a full value everywhere across that range?
I’d say the math is likely right, but we cannot account for all the conditions during the bullet’s path of flight to plug in the numbers correctly.
I can promise you that your theory is likely wrong and the math is correct. You (and me and everyone else) just don’t have the ability to measure all the inputs needed for the math to work.
You can’t say “there’s too many factors” in one sentence and “the math is wrong” in the other. Very conflicting statements.
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You’d have to have wind meters along the entire path of the bullet (max ord and all) to make a definitive statement on the value of the wind.
crystal! the math is always right, given proper data, the rest is just us and our inability to cope with all the variables, including the weakest link, ourselves, that doesn't line up. If LR were easy this forum wouldn't exist
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Ok, I'll put it another way. I don't disagree with the math but I don't base every time I pull the trigger on it either.
You pretty much proved my point about the wind, it does do different things at various distances and changes speed as well and my impacts were consistent without changing windage or holding differently. I have never seen this with .308 size cartridges or smaller.
Including a 7 SAUM with a bc that matched the .338.
You were shooting a 300 gr bullet with a high BC.
The math is likely correct(I won’t say always as we are continually refining formulas), but hitting a high pressure area or a wind pocket with the smaller cartridge is going to have a greater effect.
You also can not compare say a 6mm, 308, and a 338 lm to one another at the same distance (say 1k yds).
These cartridges had very different trajectory.
The fair comparison would be on same day with same conditions and at distances which the trajectory (lets just say max ord) is the same. This would let all three bullets enter the same wind zone as each other.
So, you might had to run 800, 1k, and 1700 for .308, 6mm, and 338lm respectively to get a fair comparison.
And even then, what the wind is doing in a zone 20 feet in the air at 600 is going to be different at 1500 20 feet in the air.
But without a metic shit ton of data and some extremely accurate device (lidar for example), you cannot even begin to challenge the math.
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