Do I need a bubble level?

[nick338]

You were shooting a 300 gr bullet with a high BC.

The math is likely correct(I won’t say always as we are continually refining formulas), but hitting a high pressure area or a wind pocket with the smaller cartridge is going to have a greater effect.

You also can not compare say a 6mm, 308, and a 338 lm to one another at the same distance (say 1k yds).

These cartridges had very different trajectory.

The fair comparison would be on same day with same conditions and at distances which the trajectory (lets just say max ord) is the same. This would let all three bullets enter the same wind zone as each other.

So, you might had to run 800, 1k, and 1700 for .308, 6mm, and 338lm respectively to get a fair comparison.

And even then, what the wind is doing in a zone 20 feet in the air at 600 is going to be different at 1500 20 feet in the air.

But without a metic shit ton of data and some extremely accurate device (lidar for example), you cannot even begin to challenge the math.

I did edit the post to bring the 7 SAUM into the picture as I knew you would bring up the point of bc and comparing cartridges. I shot .338 for years and never had to make corrections that software suggested. I have however for everything else and I'm aware that all the situations are different.

Again, I don't want to argue about the math and call it wrong although it is constantly evolving, just that sometimes things happen that the math can't account for.

 

[silhouette]

So much pointless arguing in this thread. We need to rid the world of such hatred.
Let's all just have a beer and go bash up a vegan.

 

[pitdog85]

Frank are the spin drift figures in Hornady 4DOF correct ???

 

[11bar]

Listen to the snipershide podcast on the subject frank rants on it makes some great points

 

[Primus]

confederate snipers were making hits at 1000 yds without bubble levels....safe to say you dont NEED one.

is it going to hurt?...probably not.....but its not a crisis if you dont have one.

And what was their average shot taken to hit? Just because I can hit a 95 you fastball once doesn't mean the Yankees are going to give me $30m a year to DH. Logic.. how does it work?

 

[Benman151]

Hey guys new to this LR shooting also a LE SWAT sniper so don’t shoot as far a distance as some of you...but I can definitely tell inside my own head when the rifle is canted versus when it is level. Just my thought on it is in a real world situation that I may run into I wouldn’t have time to even check a level prior to taking a shot. I know everyone is not in the same situation but just my two cents

 

[Jayjay1]

Well, Frank doesn´t need one, but I´m not Frank.

Being new into precision shooting and using a bubble for a couple of weeks now, I KNOW THAT I need one.

 

[Jackomason]

Well, Frank doesn´t need one, but I´m not Frank.

Being new into precision shooting and using a bubble for a couple of weeks now, I KNOW THAT I need one.

Frank's point is that you dont need to be Frank to not need one, you just need proper set up and fundamentals. The fact that you're new to the sport just means that you're probably missing something.

I honestly dont care if you use one or not but it's not some strange witchcraft that is unobtainable for the average guy.

 

[TripleBull]

I agree. With both sides actually.

The only time you get to do that is if it gets you into a threesome with a couple of incredible women.

 

[Jayjay1]

The only time you get to do that is if it gets you into a threesome with a couple of incredible women.

Not true.

 

[Jayjay1]

The fact that you're new to the sport just means that you're probably missing something.

Exactly, that´s why I need one.

 

[TripleBull]

Not true.

Well, I'd only do a threesome with women. YMMV but I don't need to know about it.

 

[Squat]

Has anyone ever asked how far USMC snipers trained to shoot back in the day? How about today? People think Mil snipers are going past 1000 daily, heck most of the stalk shots are wellllllll under that. Cant matters how you deal with it is your call. I wish Frank would rant about the use of tripods in "sniper comps" like he does against levels. Oh i bet if TH made one maybe then he would take a stand and call out people unable to build a position so they use a 1500 tripod as a crutch.

EDIT: spelling and to add I am not knocking on Frank, I truly wish he would call people out for using tripods. The Level thing?? whatever use it or don't. I will say there is almost NEVER a tripod in the field, meaning military... when there is. ITS NEVER used to build position for your ARM!

 

[Dthomas3523]

Has anyone ever asked how far USMC snipers trained to shoot back in the day? How about today? People think Mil snipers are going past 1000 daily, heck most of the stalk shots are wellllllll under that. Cant matters how you deal with it is your call. I was Frank would rant about the use of tripods in "sniper comps" like he does against levels. Oh i bet if TH made one maybe then he would take a stand and call out people unable to build a position so they use a 1500 tripod as a crutch.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Has anyone ever asked how far USMC snipers trained to shoot back in the day? How about today? People think Mil snipers are going past 1000 daily, heck most of the stalk shots are wellllllll under that. Cant matters how you deal with it is your call. I wish Frank would rant about the use of tripods in "sniper comps" like he does against levels. Oh i bet if TH made one maybe then he would take a stand and call out people unable to build a position so they use a 1500 tripod as a crutch.

EDIT: spelling and to add I am not knocking on Frank, I truly wish he would call people out for using tripods. The Level thing?? whatever use it or don't. I will say there is almost NEVER a tripod in the field, meaning military... when there is. ITS NEVER used to build position for your ARM!

Um......tripods are used damn near ALL the time in the field now.

 

[Squat]

Um......tripods are used damn near ALL the time in the field now.

which AO? I play hockey with the guys on the new rifle procurement team from SOCOM soo....

 

[huntsman22]

So, did your team beat the SOCOM tripod procurement team?

 

[Jackomason]

which AO? I play hockey with the guys on the new rifle procurement team from SOCOM soo....

Frank and Phil literally just talked about this on their last podcast. Tripods change the way a sniper looks at rooms and obstacles. They make sense.

 

[Dthomas3523]

which AO? I play hockey with the guys on the new rifle procurement team from SOCOM soo....

Literally all of them. If you ain’t packing a tripod......you’re wrong.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Welcome to stage six, "Wish I had a tripod", as you can see we have a VTAC barricade with five marked ports. Shooter is required to engage the 66% IPSC steel target at 666 yards with two rounds through each of the five ports, 10 shots total. At no time can any part of the shooter or their equipment contact nor extend through the barricade. You will have 90 seconds to complete this stage.

 

[Steel head]

Has anyone ever asked how far USMC snipers trained to shoot back in the day? How about today? People think Mil snipers are going past 1000 daily, heck most of the stalk shots are wellllllll under that. Cant matters how you deal with it is your call. I wish Frank would rant about the use of tripods in "sniper comps" like he does against levels. Oh i bet if TH made one maybe then he would take a stand and call out people unable to build a position so they use a 1500 tripod as a crutch.

EDIT: spelling and to add I am not knocking on Frank, I truly wish he would call people out for using tripods. The Level thing?? whatever use it or don't. I will say there is almost NEVER a tripod in the field, meaning military... when there is. ITS NEVER used to build position for your ARM!

One of my best friends was in the teams for 19 years most of that as a sniper.

The fabbed tripod mounts for mostly urban use using u channel, padding and zip ties often.

I showed him the ARCA mounts they have now and he said he wished they had that when he was in.

 

[littlepod]

Well, Frank doesn´t need one, but I´m not Frank.

Being new into precision shooting and using a bubble for a couple of weeks now, I KNOW THAT I need one.

I'm new to precision shooting, been doing it for about 2 months now, and I put one on just to understand how bad I was canting after each shot / before each shot. I made the necessary adjustments and now I use it as a verification tool after a set of shots to make sure that fundamentals are in line. On one rifle that I shoot, I remain uncanted through the session. The other rifle, my scope is not aligned to how the rifle naturally fits me and it's always canted. I went back and re-leveled the scope based on how the rifle fits me, and that issue went away.

Another thing is that having the scope level perfectly lined up to gravity allows me to move scopes around and not have to worry about plum lines when setting it up again.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I'm new to precision shooting, been doing it for about 2 months now, and I put one on just to understand how bad I was canting after each shot / before each shot. I made the necessary adjustments and now I use it as a verification tool after a set of shots to make sure that fundamentals are in line. On one rifle that I shoot, I remain uncanted through the session. The other rifle, my scope is not aligned to how the rifle naturally fits me and it's always canted. I went back and re-leveled the scope based on how the rifle fits me, and that issue went away.

Another thing is that having the scope level perfectly lined up to gravity allows me to move scopes around and not have to worry about plum lines when setting it up again.

So, after 2 months, how are you sure that you have proper fundamentals and are behind/shouldering the gun properly?

You very well may have just corrected for a very bad habit.

Also, you cannot change the scope across rifles unless the rifle is the same stock and set up exactly to the same cant as the other.

You may also find as you progress you start shouldering the rifle better and now you either have to re-level your optic or be purposely canting the rifle to get the reticle level where you had it set.

The exact opposite is why many people keep the reticle level with the rifle and the rifle level to gravity. So they can put the optic on any rifle, bot just rifles set up with the proper cant.

I’m not saying someone should never adjust their rifle with a cant, but it shouldn’t be something you do with as little as two months experience.

This is the equivalent to shooting a pistol low left and just aiming high right. Eventually you’ll fix the low left and then have to get out of the habit of aiming high right.

 

[FN-Whitney]

I didn't think I need one until I got one and tried it, now I know that I need it.

 

[acudaowner]

I would say do it sooner rather than later make yourself use it so later its just another thing you do without thinking about it . do you have to no you don't have to do anything , but like looking both ways before you cross the road its a good idea and too late after that car hits you .

 

[littlepod]

So, after 2 months, how are you sure that you have proper fundamentals and are behind/shouldering the gun properly?

You very well may have just corrected for a very bad habit.

Also, you cannot change the scope across rifles unless the rifle is the same stock and set up exactly to the same cant as the other.

You may also find as you progress you start shouldering the rifle better and now you either have to re-level your optic or be purposely canting the rifle to get the reticle level where you had it set.

The exact opposite is why many people keep the reticle level with the rifle and the rifle level to gravity. So they can put the optic on any rifle, bot just rifles set up with the proper cant.

I’m not saying someone should never adjust their rifle with a cant, but it shouldn’t be something you do with as little as two months experience.

This is the equivalent to shooting a pistol low left and just aiming high right. Eventually you’ll fix the low left and then have to get out of the habit of aiming high right.

Thanks for the feedback. I had everything leveled to the rifle since the beginning. I also never checked cant when I shot either. I just kept shooting. I recently started the snipers hide training videos and made those adjustments. But maybe I'm doing everything wrong. I signed up for PR training next July... yeh 1 year from now.

For me, putting the rifle on my shoulder, barricade, every instance where it felt right in my hands, the rifle was always .8 to 1 degree canted. So I changed my scope to be level to gravity when everything felt right with the rifle in my hands. So now everytime I approach any barricade, or positionally standing/kneeling, scope is always level to gravity, vs that 1 degree cant. I couldn't figure a way to change my body/muscle memory on what felt right in my hands to be right with the scope.

Maybe I should attend a few PRS matches and have pros teach me or give me advice, I don't know.

 

[SPAK]

Literally all of them. If you ain’t packing a tripod......you’re wrong.

I just got back from the field. Tripod x2... check.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I just got back from the field. Tripod x2... check.

Thanks for the feedback. I had everything leveled to the rifle since the beginning. I also never checked cant when I shot either. I just kept shooting. I recently started the snipers hide training videos and made those adjustments. But maybe I'm doing everything wrong. I signed up for PR training next July... yeh 1 year from now.

For me, putting the rifle on my shoulder, barricade, every instance where it felt right in my hands, the rifle was always .8 to 1 degree canted. So I changed my scope to be level to gravity when everything felt right with the rifle in my hands. So now everytime I approach any barricade, or positionally standing/kneeling, scope is always level to gravity, vs that 1 degree cant. I couldn't figure a way to change my body/muscle memory on what felt right in my hands to be right with the scope.

Maybe I should attend a few PRS matches and have pros teach me or give me advice, I don't know.

Just keep an open mind in general. A canted rifle may very well be the answer for you.

In no way any offense to you, but what “feels right” when you’re starting out, isn’t always right.

 

[wade2big]

I didn't think I need one until I got one and tried it, now I know that I need it.

Then you don't need it, as you proved it yourself by not knowing you needed it when you didn’t have it.

 

[Squat]

I just got back from the field. Tripod x2... check.

which unit? I literally just had a Marine SCout sniper come through my class and those guys have a pretty good laugh at guys with 2 tripods. " its the stalk man" " what about the scout?" You guys make me laugh.

 

[Squat]

One of my best friends was in the teams for 19 years most of that as a sniper.

The fabbed tripod mounts for mostly urban use using u channel, padding and zip ties often.

I showed him the ARCA mounts they have now and he said he wished they had that when he was in.

using a tripod for some positions is not the same as bolting your rifle to a 1500 tripod then needing a second one because you cant build a rear position without it. Then mocking the 6mm crowd for free recoiling. Of course you use a tripod in some situations. Thats why the hog saddle was made. I dont have a problem with the tripod on the front as much as I do the rear. Unless you game the game and use a tripod but touch the rope with a barrel.

Anyways this is about Cant. I dont think you need the bubble after you learn to use the bubble. I used the bubble and now I can tell when its off. I still have it on but I am centered more often than not due to constantly checking the bubble.

 

[SPAK]

which unit? I literally just had a Marine SCout sniper come through my class and those guys have a pretty good laugh at guys with 2 tripods. " its the stalk man" " what about the scout?" You guys make me laugh.

I’m not even going to answer this.... your interpretation is ridiculous.

 

[elkbow]

Levels, dont' make you shoot better, understanding how to use one and training does

A spuhr level is for mounting not training

How do I mount it, of course, the reticle is leveled to the fall of the gravity but the scope is not always a straight genius, the reticle is level the rifle is set to my NATURAL HOLD that is the key,

Try finding a video of me shooting ELR or otherwise with a level on my rifle

Levels, dont' make you shoot better, understanding how to use one and training does

LOL, that's an oxymoron, levels don't make you shoot better, but if you know how to use one it makes you a better shooter.

My recommendation is to get one, use it for practice sessions, see when you prep the gun and your body how close you are to being level. It's like dry firing, it's good practice and after awhile you'll find that you rarely need it, but it's there if you need it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

LOL, that's an oxymoron, levels don't make you shoot better, but if you know how to use one it makes you a better shooter.

My recommendation is to get one, use it for practice sessions, see when you prep the gun and your body how close you are to being level. It's like dry firing, it's good practice and after awhile you'll find that you rarely need it, but it's there if you need it.

So, your suggestion is the same as the guy you’re quoting?

 

[elkbow]

So, your suggestion is the same as the guy you’re quoting?

No, because if you read the whole thread you would read in many places why he doesn't use one and apparently doesn't recommend one..

I just thought the comment funny, either it does, doesn't, or possibly does.

 

[Dthomas3523]

No, because if you read the whole thread you would read in many places why he doesn't use one and apparently doesn't recommend one..

I just thought the comment funny, either it does, doesn't, or possibly does.

Ha. He recommends them all the time as a training aid.

His comment means that just attaching one to your rifle and not using it is worthless and that’s what most people do. They put it on there, check it every now and then when their groups open up and that’s it. Most never look at it during a match under time/stress.

Reading comprehension is potato.

 

[Anthonyc]

I say yes! Burris is pretty cheap. I can’t tell you how many times a wooden bench or ground has been uneven and the bubble level helped me adjust cant. It’s cheap and worth it. It’s another variable you eliminate (rifle not level) if you are shooting groups that are not doing too good. Not needed at shorter distances but longer distances, a slight cant to your rifle an make a difference. If you prefer a more cost efficient option and your top scope turret is flat, buy a tiny level from a hardware store and use that instead.

 

[Jayjay1]

I need one since I have one.

Before I didn´t.

 

[axarob44]

Todd Hodnett sells them so no.

That’s a good enough reason all by itself

 

[Strykervet]

I got a couple a while back, I installed 'em on the scopes. But I can't say as they really do anything. I can naturally line up the rifle just as good without it. I'll probably take 'em off and sell 'em.

Now a cosine indicator, that's a different story and any long range rifle should have one of those installed IMO. Unless you never fire from elevation or depression.

 

[Bearkat]

A lot of good information here.

 

[Lowlight]

I see bubbles attached to scopes everyday in classes, 90% are not ever leveled to the reticle, or they are located in the wrong place doing nothing for the shooter.

Then when it comes to time to shoot, the only shot leveled is the first one, and maybe the last one because people have a process which ignores the level during the group or process. I don't care their level of success, I watched a Ko2M team in the top 10 do it, filmed them rolling the rifle over shot after shot, yes they have a level attached. Nobody pays attention after the first glance until they "see" it.

Their proceess is, they line the reticle up on the target, they move around and get comfortable, they look back at the target, then they check the bubble, after that they begin to shoot, and never check it again. Shot 2, 3, and 5 are all canted.

You are much better served dollar wise getting a better bipod and locking it down. A Cant comes from a specific place and the bipod will fix that if you tighten it enough that you can't pull the rifle over with the bolt or push the rifle over with your cheek. You can see it from across the range when guys are canted.

A bubble alone is not the answer and complete waste of money, if you don't understand how to shoot to begin with, where the can't comes from and how to prevent it, how does simply adding one fix it. You cannot watch the level and the target at the same time to any degree of security, Those who say they are, fooling themselves and probably the worst offenders.

Misery loves company and a $6 level in a $150 wrapper is a waste of money and a distraction to good shooting. You can train yourself with one if you are disciplined, you need to know where and how to mount as well as how to using it a training aid, vs a shooting tool. Say that again, it's a Training AID and not a Shooting Tool.

 

[candyx]

I use a string line from the muzzle

to the target for level.

 

[elkbow]

Ha. He recommends them all the time as a training aid.

His comment means that just attaching one to your rifle and not using it is worthless and that’s what most people do. They put it on there, check it every now and then when their groups open up and that’s it. Most never look at it during a match under time/stress.

Reading comprehension is potato.

Yea, comprehension, like where below in his latest comments where he says it is a complete waste of money lol.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yea, comprehension, like where below in his latest comments where he says it is a complete waste of money lol.

Again, read his posts where he recommends it as a training tool.

There’s at least 20 of those posts on the site. And it’s easy to find.....cause he’s the owner.

But, you probably know more than one of the top instructors in the country eh? Where can I sign up for you class that’s sold out until next year?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yea, comprehension, like where below in his latest comments where he says it is a complete waste of money lol.

Also dipshit, you pulled a CNN. He said complete waste of money......if you don’t have good fundamentals to begin with and understand how to use it.

So.......again, read much? You don’t get to stop reading at the comma.


“A bubble alone is not the answer and complete waste of money, if you don't understand how to shoot to begin with, where the can't comes from and how to prevent it, how does simply adding one fix it. You cannot watch the level and the target at the same time to any degree of security, Those who say they are, fooling themselves and probably the worst offenders.”

 

[elkbow]

Also dipshit, you pulled a CNN. He said complete waste of money......if you don’t have good fundamentals to begin with and understand how to use it.

So.......again, read much? You don’t get to stop reading at the comma.


“A bubble alone is not the answer and complete waste of money, if you don't understand how to shoot to begin with, where the can't comes from and how to prevent it, how does simply adding one fix it. You cannot watch the level and the target at the same time to any degree of security, Those who say they are, fooling themselves and probably the worst offenders.”

OH, you forgot the other good stuff...

"Misery loves company and a $6 level in a $150 wrapper is a waste of money and a distraction to good shooting"

and I know what he is getting at, but you, you're tryi g kiss azz or what,? Geez..

 

[Dthomas3523]

OH, you forgot the other good stuff...

"Misery loves company and a $6 level in a $150 wrapper is a waste of money and a distraction to good shooting"

and I know what he is getting at, but you, you're tryi g kiss azz or what,? Geez..

Nope, just pointing out the retards as usual.

Again, you didn’t read the bottom paragraph where he states it’s a good training aide.

Still waiting for you class schedule.

 

[Lowlight]

He must be a liberal,

He only reads the parts he (dis)likes or the parts that fit his narrative.

Sign me up as well, I want to take his class so I can learn how to do it.

Funny, I graduated sniper school, managing the same qual they have today, but with an M40A1, No Bipod, 10x scope, No Software, yet I managed to do it without all the tools we have today. No Level, how did we prevent canting without a level back in the day?

Oh and ps, we shot 173gr special ball ammo, about as accurate as South African Surplus.

Sign me up, I am ready to roll with some better learning, I know I get paid to shoot, paid to teach how to shoot, but man if you have a better way, I am all about it. When is the class, let me know I wanna attend.

Is there a cherry picker special ?

 

[Jackomason]

How many more pages of this do you think we can get?

I'm in on the class too but I can only pitch in $25