Night Vision EOTECH CLIP ON THERMALS ( Full details)

[stefan73]

Doesn’t look these clip-ons are legal in Kalifornia.

CA Penal Code § 468 (2017)
Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.


This section shall not prohibit the authorized use or possession of such sniperscope by a member of the armed forces of the United States or by police officers, peace officers, or law enforcement officers authorized by the properly constituted authorities for the enforcement of law or ordinances; nor shall this section prohibit the use or possession of such sniperscope when used solely for scientific research or educational purposes.

(Added by Stats. 1958, 1st Ex. Sess., Ch. 76.)

 

[TheHorta]

California is, hands down, the most incredible State in the entire country. No other state comes close in natural diversity, wonder, and beauty. So many great things happen in California.

But it’s like the world’s best Ribeye steak dinner that has been intentionally tainted with Botulism toxin or marrying a Victoria’s Secret supermodel who chops off small parts of your body while you sleep.

 

[cantankerous]

I'm no lawyer, but the wording of the bill only seems to ban devices that use a "projected infrared light" which generally would exclude thermal.

Cali is a pretty state (when you exclude the parts with all the people) but when a state has checkpoints at the border to make sure you don't bring in fruit or vegtables, but allows recreational drug use, you have have to assume they abandoned all rational thought.

 

[rlsmith1]

So is the SWFA super sniper scope illegal too? It amazes me anyone still lives there

 

[Longshot231]

So is the SWFA super sniper scope illegal too? It amazes me anyone still lives there

Not only is it simply a "sniper" scope but a "super" version as well. That really quadruples the evilness of that vile contraption.

Ever notice how the SWFA SS logo resembles the German WWII Sniper patch? SWFA brought this on themselves so don't blame Kalifornia

Has that state outlawed the x-ray vision glasses yet? Could that be why they aren't sold in comic books anymore?

 

[rlsmith1]

Yeah they’re probably worse than 30 rd mags

 

[WhereNow&How]

But it’s like the world’s best Ribeye steak dinner that has been intentionally tainted with Botulism toxin

You can safely eat that steak. Just got to boil it first and it's good to go then.

Boiling kills the Botulism. Come to think of it, Boiling solves a lot of problems.

 

[stefan73]

I'm no lawyer, but the wording of the bill only seems to ban devices that use a "projected infrared light" which generally would exclude thermal.

Cali is a pretty state (when you exclude the parts with all the people) but when a state has checkpoints at the border to make sure you don't bring in fruit or vegtables, but allows recreational drug use, you have have to assume they abandoned all rational thought.

What if you don't use an IR illuminator with it (PVS22, 24, 26, 27, 30)?

 

[CoryT]

"projected infrared light source" means this would not cover any thermal scope in the commercial market, as a IR light does nothing for the thermal image.

 

[NHPiper]

"projected infrared light source" means this would not cover any thermal scope in the commercial market, as a IR light does nothing for the thermal image.

But it would cover i2 clip ons…

What a crazy law. The only thing CA has going for it is some great custom gun builders and some awesome Jeep aftermarket shops. If it fell into the ocean the country would be better off.

 

[Dogtown]

What a crazy law.

Yep, we can actually thank Reagan for the ban on open carry in CA as a response to the Black Panthers. I think this goofy law may have been a part of it as well.

 

[CoryT]

One could argue that any of the current I2 devices do not work through ”the use of projected IR light” sources. That they MAY, does not seem to be covered. Besides, my use is “educational”.

 

[stefan73]

Yep, we can actually thank Reagan for the ban on open carry in CA as a response to the Black Panthers. I think this goofy law may have been a part of it as well.

No, this "sniper scope" BS was enacted 2017 from what I can tell.

 

[jwramp]

No, this "sniper scope" BS was enacted 2017 from what I can tell.

Yeah I don’t know why this is making the rounds this week. Sure doesn’t look like anything new. Friends in CA say it’s very old and only meant to restrict night hunting (which is also prohibited by the game laws without certain waivers).

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

I keep looking on this thread to see if there are updates about the Theon Thermals, not some BS about technicalities of a retarded law.

 

[jstokes1]

This!

I'd love to see some pictures and videos of critters, buildings and terrain at extended ranges through higher magnifications.

I'll be doing this soon hopefully

 

[cantankerous]

I'll be doing this soon hopefully

Can't wait!

Are you getting an early/demo unit, or are they starting to ship already?

 

[stefan73]

I keep looking on this thread to see if there are updates about the Theon Thermals, not some BS about technicalities of a retarded law.

Someone has to keep the thread alive

I'm waiting to hear more about the LR.

 

[Conqueror]

I’m also interested in the base model ClipIR (50mm). I want to see it put up against a TigIR. The Tig has a lot more display options but its lack of manual focus is sometimes a problem. But I can’t quite tell how much bigger the ClipIR is compared to a Tig. And the ClipIR has 50% more FOV.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Had a chance to get some cell phone pics through the Xelr with a 2.9-20 steiner M7xi. My phone doesn't play well with the displays in these units. It always gets this diagonal noise/feedback. It may look like pixelation here but its not since it is not running vertical or horizontal. Only in the 20x image it is pixelated and, as I mentioned before, it pixelates on the vertical as you can see in 20x pic.
I'm sure there is a camera setting that can be more agreeable to the device but I haven't found it yet..... But these are a good reference. The deer in these pics were all at around 400 yds +- 50.

10x deer were moving in this shot so got a little blurry because of aperture setting on phone camera

12x

20x

 

[Conqueror]

Man that 12x shot looks excellent for a 400yd distance.

 

[rlsmith1]

It has a reticle and could be used as a stand alone optic like a UTC. Not it's primary purpose but could be used that way. I'm guessing a little here as coms can be a little misinterpreted when working in different languages but how i'm understanding it is........for stand alone mode(2x optical) the full 1280 display is used (upscaled) and has 2x and 4x digital zoom avail. When clip on mode is selected it is 1 to 1 pixel to sensor ratio (same as UTCxii)and utilizes half of the display. So you get full 640 in clip on mode with the benefit of a larger display ( unlike POT voodoo-m or UTCxii) for observation or stand alone modes. The DRS IWS-LR uses a similar setup with 1280/640 modes as described here and it allows for the best of both worlds. The LWTS-LR attempted it but used a lower res display so clip on mode was heavily pixelated.

I’m trying to understand the mechanics of this.

Obviously this thing looks like a killer of a long range clip on.

So, in dedicated sight mode, it is a 2x base mag with a full screen (and I’m sure a gorgeous image given the low magnification and large lens).

In clip on mode it takes the same information and shows it in half the screen with a display of half the pixels for an image shown at net unity (appears further away). Apart from less pixles for the image, is anything else lost here? E.g. Is only half of the data from the sensor being used?

Why don’t more optics (Voodoo S for example) digitally demagogy so they can handle more scope magnification? It seems like they could process the image to make up for the 1x native magnification. Maybe you would have similar pixilation at 10x demagnified (less FOV) as you usually would at 5x at unity? What am I missing here because this seems like a no brainer…

 

[Evolution 9]

For pure image/day scope magnification, you might be able to do that, but you’d lose the aspect of clip on capability where holds/dialing etc. work. If you take a 4x image and demagnify by 4, then your scope sees a 1X image and you can hold/dial longer shots.

If you start at 1X and demagnify by 4, your holds will be way off. Am I missing what you’re trying to accomplish?

 

[rlsmith1]

That makes sense and clarifies it some. Why can’t the image be processed to be smaller but also at unity (artificially decreasing FOV)?

Maybe the better way to go about it in the case of the Voodoo S would be to have a 1.5x base mag, display the image at unity for HMT and clip on modes and have a nicer FOV in standalone mode?

Not trying to derail this thread so sorry for the questions here…

 

[Conqueror]

I think I know what you're asking and I have wondered it myself. One big issue with clip-on performance is that they pixellate as the day optic magnification increases. You would think that they could project the image onto a 1280 screen and just double the demagnifying power at the back to get it back to unity, and that would theoretically allow you to add greater day optic magnification before pixellation happens. However, that's such a transparently obvious thing to think of that I am sure there is an engineering reason it hasn't been done. It also might just be an issue of practicality - maybe a clip-on isn't that useful to .mil or most hunters if it needs 10+ magnification on the day optic before it's not too shrunken.

 

[Commander Shepard]

I think I know what you're asking and I have wondered it myself. One big issue with clip-on performance is that they pixellate as the day optic magnification increases. You would think that they could project the image onto a 1280 screen and just double the demagnifying power at the back to get it back to unity, and that would theoretically allow you to add greater day optic magnification before pixellation happens. However, that's such a transparently obvious thing to think of that I am sure there is an engineering reason it hasn't been done. It also might just be an issue of practicality - maybe a clip-on isn't that useful to .mil or most hunters if it needs 10+ magnification on the day optic before it's not too shrunken.

From what I've seen so far, most of these uncooled commercial units compromise clip-on performance in order to be able to function as a standalone sight.

I wish someone would do what you suggested: utilize full screen resolution combined with aggressive demag on the back end. But here we are.

 

[Conqueror]

I mean the xELR is certainly not a civilian unit and it too uses half the screen in clip-on mode, and won multiple SF contracts.

 

[Commander Shepard]

I mean the xELR is certainly not a civilian unit and it too uses half the screen in clip-on mode, and won multiple SF contracts.

Personal opinion here and I could be very wrong, but I think this one was driven by silly contract requirements. US cooled units generally don't have standalone modes and are optimized for clip-on performance. Also keep in mind foreign SOF units (even Brits and Canadians) have far lower budgets than their US counterparts. Otherwise they'd all be rocking INOD and HISS.

XELR seems like a solid unit, I just wish it was truly optimized for what it is meant to do.

 

[Conqueror]

I'm talking from the cheap seats having never used one, but I'm not really sure those units you mentioned have any more demag than the xELR. The through-the-scope pics that DRT briefly posted with his HISS XLR showed roughly the same amount of screen fill at a given power as the xELR and UTC Xii. I think where the $50k+ military units pull away is in their sensor tech and perhaps they have really advanced display screens with smaller pixels and higher pixel density that are more resistant to pixellation. They also go bananas on FOV (under 2.5 degrees on the INOD). But I have my doubts that the INOD has some super powerful -10x or -20x demag lens on the back. I think military would value the ability to zoom out and get a good overview of the battlefield without the image being uselessly tiny. DRS advertises the INOD as being useful down to 5x. Hopefully the guys here who have played with them will weigh in.

 

[Commander Shepard]

I don't have much experience with the INOD and I've never seen the xELR, however I do have a few years' worth of time using a HISS-XLR. I don't recall it pixelating as much even when zoomed in to 15-18x. That being said, I'm going from memory here and it's hard to compare that to a few pictures and one video from the xELR.

Don't get me wrong, I have high hopes for the xELR. I'm just slightly skeptical about this dual use design, but hopefully that concern will prove unwarranted.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Sorry, I thought I had updated the info. There is no large format stand alone mode on the xelr. It is purely a dedicated clip on with demag on back end like the utc. That info was misinterpreted from the comms with the Greeks prior to me having the demo unit in hand.

 

[Conqueror]

Does it in fact have a 1280 screen in back or is it a 1:1 640?

 

[Commander Shepard]

Sorry, I thought I had updated the info. There is no large format stand alone mode on the xelr. It is purely a dedicated clip on with demag on back end like the utc. That info was misinterpreted from the comms with the Greeks prior to me having the demo unit in hand.

That is awesome to hear. I take back what I said about the design!

 

[stefan73]

You know what would be great, a demo unit sent to my place to help me eradicate some predation, I mean test and evaluate

 

[jstokes1]

Does it in fact have a 1280 screen in back or is it a 1:1 640?

This is what I want to know.

 

[jwramp]

Does it in fact have a 1280 screen in back or is it a 1:1 640?

Isn’t that exactly what was explained on page 1?

**edit - per comments below, this is evidently false. My bad!

 

[Evolution 9]

Isn’t that exactly what was explained on page 1?
View attachment 7874624

Yes, Except he recently clarified that his information wasn’t accurate/complete when he said that.

“

• #235

Sorry, I thought I had updated the info. There is no large format stand alone mode on the xelr. It is purely a dedicated clip on with demag on back end like the utc. That info was misinterpreted from the comms with the Greeks prior to me having the demo unit in hand.”


So the question still remains, which screen resolution is on the back end of the eXLR. This hasn’t been answered yet to my knowledge.

I personally don’t care because the images we’ve all seen aren’t going to magically get better or worse based on the answer (we already know what the image looks like, so who cares how they got that image), but I understand that some want to know for curiosity/academic reasons.

 

[Conqueror]

Isn’t that exactly what was explained on page 1?

Maybe you missed it in your rush to be snippy, but DRT clarified on this page of the thread that he was wrong, there is no stand-alone mode on the xELR. So that makes me wonder about the veracity of the very statement you just quoted.

 

[jwramp]

Maybe you missed it in your rush to be snippy, but DRT clarified on this page of the thread that he was wrong, there is no stand-alone mode on the xELR. So that makes me wonder about the veracity of the very statement you just quoted.

Gotcha - a bit frustrating that specs/quotes aren’t corrected if the information was wrong. Was just over on pg1 looking for some pics and the full specs to pass along to someone and didn’t see the later correction. Mea culpa.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Gotcha - a bit frustrating that specs/quotes aren’t corrected if the information was wrong. Was just over on pg1 looking for some pics and the full specs to pass along to someone and didn’t see the later correction. Mea culpa.

Sorry Ill fix been busier than a 10 dick rabbit.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

Still on for June timeline?

 

[cantankerous]

@SkyScrapin recently told me he was expecting a 2-3 week heads up before they ship, and he hadn't heard anything yet.

 

[Conqueror]

@DownRangeThermal can you confirm the rear screen resolution on the xELR? 1280 vs 640?

 

[Bri0242]

Still on for June timeline?

My source said August now

 

[cantankerous]

My source said August now

I sure hope they come sooner than that.
It seems like EVERYTHING I order always gets delayed.

 

[brodband8]

Dan has texted me and confirmed that the xELR has a 1280 display in it but only utilizes 640 pixels. He said they did that to use less demag in the rear end.

 

[Conqueror]

What a weird decision. I wonder if that’s to allow calibration? Seems like a waste to use a screen 4x the area you plan to use. I could see wanting to use less demag if it was going to have a stand-alone mode but it doesn’t.

 

[tangloppen]

What a weird decision. I wonder if that’s to allow calibration? Seems like a waste to use a screen 4x the area you plan to use. I could see wanting to use less demag if it was going to have a stand-alone mode but it doesn’t.

Well, why is it weird? It works, or else the SOF would probably just have picked something that did…

 

[Conqueror]

There is no other clip-on that I know of putting a 1280 screen in and only using it in 640 mode. Whether it works is frankly irrelevant to that. I’m not saying it’s a bad system, it’s obviously good and I paid a deposit on one, I just can’t wrap my mind around that design feature.

 

[tangloppen]

it seems as that the secret sauce for most good clipon’s is the eyepiece.
Maybe the designers found that the easiest way to good functionality was the larger screen.
Designing optical paths surely is a pain in the ass, and very expensive.

I guess the saying “if it’s stupid but it works - it ain’t stupid” comes to play here.
Optimized design.