Expected and realistic 22 magnum accuracy

[rookie7]

What is realistic accuracy out of a factory 22 mag rifle at 50 and 100 yards?

I’ve had a few tell me they get 1 hole groups at 50 and less than an inch at 100, but I feel those are the exception and not the rule.

I have a 22 mag now - first 22 mag rifle ever and am trying to establish a baseline of what is realistic.

thank you

 

[brianf]

Check the vudoo 22lr thread in rim fire.

they were just talking 22 mag last night

 

[justin amateur]

I've already pissed off the 22wmr fanboyz at RFC, might as well do the same here.

No company manufactures match quality 22wmr, none. Fact.
There are no match chambers for 22wmr. Why? Too wide a spread in production tolerances by the manufacturers.
Chambers have to be cut to fit existing production of 22wmr cartridges, otherwise too many fail to chambers.
Every time someone claims all day long accuracy with a 22wmr, I offer the same reply...show me.
They offer one or two five shot groups as proof.
That's called cherry picking, not "all day long".

What makes me any kind of an authority on the 22wmr?
I've actually tested every brand of cartridge made, across a chronograph,
from multiple platforms,
at 50, 100 and 200 yards with Lilja, Feddersen and CZ barrels.

The problem is not the rifles, but the lack of quality ammunition.

At 50 yards, expect 3/4 inch to 1-1/2 inch spread.
At 100 yards, 1-1/4 to 4.5 inch spread.
At 200 yards, 7 to 20 inch spread.
All due to the fact that it's hunting ammo,
not precision paper punching ammo.
Intended for center of critter out to about 75 yards.

 

[SporterII]

Yep.

 

[RAVAGE88]

....with Lilja, Feddersen and CZ barrels.

You're right....

MB

 

[orkan]

I have a 22 mag now - first 22 mag rifle ever and am trying to establish a baseline of what is realistic.

Then you've come to the wrong place. The internet is not where that baseline is established.

It's established right there with you. Go get a variety of ammo types... just a box or two of each would suffice. Then shoot them all on a nice calm day using YOUR specific rifle, at 50 and 100yds. You'll see very quickly what the reality of your situation is.

You certainly aren't going to find convincing validation here. Some claim 22 mag can't hit a pop can at 50yds. Others claim they will shoot every round fired into 1/4moa at 100yds. If people were to be trusted, a resource like this could produce the results you are looking for. Yet the situation is what it is because you have people cherry picking groups left, right, and center. ... and the rimfire forum category is the absolute WORST. Why do you think you can find me posting pictures of 350 rounds in 10-shot groups all in one frame? Shooting hundreds of rounds LIVE with everyone watching my targets, and seeing the distance confirmed by LRF? Because I'm sick of the cherry picking idiocy, that's why. It sets and unreasonable standard.

 

[SporterII]

Have a target like that shot with 22 Mag.? Might be something he should see.

 

[justin amateur]

Want to be really annoyed with the 22wmr?

Shoot a couple USBR Green Monsters at 50 yards.
One dot, one shot, 50 times.
Not groups, actually try to hit what you aim at.

It's depressing when you try it at 100 yards.

 

[orkan]

Have a target like that shot with 22 Mag.? Might be something he should see.

No. I took pictures, but it was long ago and I have no idea where they are. I gave up on the idea.

I had a 22mag I built on a Remington 40X. We did a custom chamber based on a specific ammo type. Certain lot numbers would shoot extremely well. In the .2's at 50yds and half to 3/4" at 100yds. Trying to find 22mag ammo sellers that will let you lot test is a real pain. So, I just got tired of the ridiculous lot testing demands and rebarreled it in 22lr. I now have a 40x in 17HMR and it is much less picky regarding lot numbers. CCI TNT 17gr and CCI Gamepoint 20gr. It'll shoot most lot numbers really well, and some even better. Much more useful rifle/cartridge combo to me. However, now that 17WSM is here... it's significantly less useful. lol

22 mag is flat out POINTLESS with 17WSM now existing.

 

[justin amateur]

A link to a thread at RFC that annoyed some folks.

Targets and results included

22wmr 50 at 100

22wmr 50 at 100 Challenge It occurs to me, there is an easy way to define the accuracy of the 22wmr. A single target, 10 bullseyes, 5 shots at each, 50 shots total. No time limit, no limitations on setup, use any 22wmr cartridge that makes you happy. Factory stock rifle, custom rifle, high end...

www.rimfirecentral.com

Notice, I was the only person willing to post results.
I wonder why?

 

[SporterII]

Orkan, we can only speak to our experiences and some have vast experience. If someone could pick up the Mag. a notch it would be cool.

 

[justin amateur]

There's no profit in it Sporter.
If you want 22 caliber accuracy, you reload centerfire...22 Hornet, 222, 223.

 

[orkan]

Orkan, we can only speak to our experiences and some have vast experience. If someone could pick up the Mag. a notch it would be cool.

It's not that difficult if you have access to large quantities of ammo. Eventually there is a lot number that comes up that will shoot quite well. It's just somewhat rare.

It sure isn't going to be me working on it. Been there, done that. 22 mag is a loser, all the way around, even when it shoots well. Now that 17WSM is here, it isn't even a worthwhile discussion. Go shoot a coon or badger with a 22 mag. Then go shoot one with a 17WSM. You'll see quite plainly what I'm talking about.

 

[RAVAGE88]

....we can only speak to our experiences and some have vast experience. If someone could pick up the Mag. a notch it would be cool.

This is an interesting POV as it relates to what's more applicable to the OPs question. He used the word "realistic." With most, "realistic" is severely limited to the same criteria that produced their reported results. For a limited few, "realistic" moves as the variables are changed. Not many that tout experience do anything to actually understand what ALL the variables are (they generally give up before this happens) and therefore, do nothing to change them, thereby, never changing reality.

Instead, experience is touted, which is not misplaced as it relates to the common variables, but a greater understanding of "why" is never reached. While it's true that ammo is a huge variable and often leads to poor performance in many other loads, there are other variables that can change the results for the better using current ammo. All too often something is abandoned for what's purported to be the next great thing only to find out nothing was accomplished without a greater understanding of the original issues....17WSM has proven to be another one of those black holes....

There's no profit in it Sporter.

Those that do nothing outside the greater desire for profit never help anyone but themselves.

MB

 

[TACC]

Forget what the factory adds say, what results for 50, 100, 150, and 200, are you getting out of the 17wsm, and with what factory ammo?

 

[justin amateur]

17 wsm ammo? Only one factory, Winchester.
All the others are relabeled Winchester production.
Same cartridges, trays, boxes, just different labels.

Winchester rimfire quality control, is that an oxymoron?

 

[RAVAGE88]

Winchester rimfire quality control, is that an oxymoron?

If ever there was an oxymoron, you nailed it Justin....

MB

 

[RTH1800]

The .22 mag. is a wonderful cartridge in its place. It is not a target round. Was never intended to be. In a good rifle with proper ammunition it is an excellent game killer to 100 yards and fair killer to 150 yards.

It is an excellent handgun cartridge. About the fastest killer of small to medium game and vermin in a handgun I have tried.

Possibly the best “survive in the woods” cartridge in existence.

The mistake folks make is trying to make it something it’s not.

 

[rookie7]

The .22 mag. is a wonderful cartridge in its place. It is not a target round. Was never intended to be. In a good rifle with proper ammunition it is an excellent game killer to 100 yards and fair killer to 150 yards.

It is an excellent handgun cartridge. About the fastest killer of small to medium game and vermin in a handgun I have tried.

Possibly the best “survive in the woods” cartridge in existence.

The mistake folks make is trying to make it something it’s not.

Thank you for your input. For me it IS going to be a critter killer. I'm seeing 3/4" groups at 50 on average.

Keep in mind it's my first 22 mag rifle ever. I've got an acquaintance that has one of a very similar model claiming one hole at 50. SO... it makes me scratch my head and curiously question - what is this cartridge capable of in an average hunting rifle off the shelf.

I'm not stupid, so I take his "one hole all day at 50" with a grain of salt and realize what @orkan stated that the guy is probably cherry picking a group.

 

[rookie7]

I've already pissed off the 22wmr fanboyz at RFC, might as well do the same here.

No company manufactures match quality 22wmr, none. Fact.
There are no match chambers for 22wmr. Why? Too wide a spread in production tolerances by the manufacturers.
Chambers have to be cut to fit existing production of 22wmr cartridges, otherwise too many fail to chambers.
Every time someone claims all day long accuracy with a 22wmr, I offer the same reply...show me.
They offer one or two five shot groups as proof.
That's called cherry picking, not "all day long".

What makes me any kind of an authority on the 22wmr?
I've actually tested every brand of cartridge made, across a chronograph,
from multiple platforms,
at 50, 100 and 200 yards with Lilja, Feddersen and CZ barrels.

The problem is not the rifles, but the lack of quality ammunition.

At 50 yards, expect 3/4 inch to 1-1/2 inch spread.
At 100 yards, 1-1/4 to 4.5 inch spread.
At 200 yards, 7 to 20 inch spread.
All due to the fact that it's hunting ammo,
not precision paper punching ammo.
Intended for center of critter out to about 75 yards.

Thank you for your post. This is the kind of data I was looking for.

 

[RTH1800]

Thanks.

My experience with .22 mag accuracy in rifles goes back a while.

I had shot them over many years and was impressed with the kills.

I wanted a trim, light hunting rifle. Not a bolt as I often shoot groups of critters. Liked Winchester 61 in mag chambering. I bought 10-12 of them and cleaned the barrels.

The average 10 shot groups ran about 2”at 100 yards as I recall. Two shot a bit worse at around 3”. One was a stunner. It shot 5 consecutive 10 shot groups at 1.1”. At 150 yards it’s under 2”. That gets it done for me on the game I shoot.

I sold all but that one and actually made a profit on the deal.

 

[rookie7]

Then you've come to the wrong place. The internet is not where that baseline is established.

It's established right there with you. Go get a variety of ammo types... just a box or two of each would suffice. Then shoot them all on a nice calm day using YOUR specific rifle, at 50 and 100yds. You'll see very quickly what the reality of your situation is.

You certainly aren't going to find convincing validation here. Some claim 22 mag can't hit a pop can at 50yds. Others claim they will shoot every round fired into 1/4moa at 100yds. If people were to be trusted, a resource like this could produce the results you are looking for. Yet the situation is what it is because you have people cherry picking groups left, right, and center. ... and the rimfire forum category is the absolute WORST. Why do you think you can find me posting pictures of 350 rounds in 10-shot groups all in one frame? Shooting hundreds of rounds LIVE with everyone watching my targets, and seeing the distance confirmed by LRF? Because I'm sick of the cherry picking idiocy, that's why. It sets and unreasonable standard.

@orkan I disagree with you, but I am almost 100% sure it is because I used the word "baseline" which is my mistake.

Your post is 100% right if I had intended for my question to be "what would be the most accurate ammo for my 22 magnum rifle".

My bad on the wording - that is not what I wanted to know - and you are exactly right - the answer isn't here it's at the range with me, my rifle, and a wide selection of ammo.

The data or answers or experiences I am curious to find is: What is a realistic range of accuracy out of a factory sporter 22 magnum at 50 and 100 yards? I'm looking for a window... a spectrum.

Thank you for your input and for sharing your experiences.

I love the Hide. There is a large range of folks here from regular folks to real experts and innovators like @RAVAGE88 and yourself orkan.

I've been shooting and hunting more of my life than I haven't, but I'm always eager to learn.

Thank you!

 

[orkan]

What is a realistic range of accuracy out of a factory sporter 22 magnum at 50 and 100 yards?

With the right lot of ammo, and all other things in the system being proper... 3/4moa @ 100yds is about the best I've ever seen across a large sample size of shots. Wouldn't be hard to find a couple 5-shot groups to take a picture of that would be a lot smaller, but if you fired 50 rounds and 90% of those fell inside 3/4" at 100... that would be about the best I'd ever expect. If grabbing any old ammo off the shelf, in rifles that aren't full custom, 1.5-2" @ 100yds territory is what I'd call "normal" for the 22 mag.

 

[rookie7]

Now that I’ve found what I was looking for let’s turn this discussion towards the 17hmr and 17wsm.
Just based on your other posts i get the impression that you like and have more confidence in the 17hmr and 17wsm. @orkan

Is the market in terms of rifles and ammo ever going to improve re the 17wsm? Or can anyone really predict?

 

[SporterII]

-can you say 322backwards?-

 

[RAVAGE88]

Now that I’ve found what I was looking for let’s turn this discussion towards the 17hmr and 17wsm.

Is the market in terms of rifles and ammo ever going to improve re the 17wsm? Or can anyone really predict?

The 17WSM is horrible, shoots no better/not as well as the 22WMR. Since Winchester is the sole supplier of ammo, because they use brass from their industrial nail gun blank, I see no improvements on the horizon. This is a variable no one but Winchester can alter to change/improve the outcome.

MB

 

[RTH1800]

^^^^^^^
Truth

 

[RTH1800]

The 17’s not only shoot poorly but simply fail to kill beyond 100 yards.
I have properly placed shot after shot from 17HMR on coyotes and badgers at 150+ yards with very poor results. Far less lethal than a 22 mag hollow point.

 

[RAVAGE88]

^^^^^^^

Truth

MB

 

[orkan]

Hahahahaha. I can’t wait to come back to this thread in the future. I made sure to take screenshots.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Screen shots like this one?

​

orkan 8 months ago

Oh I'm sure it probably is the ammo. No real good offerings available.
All 17WSM is made by winchester.




MB

 

[orkan]

lol. And you think that proves your point? What a joke.

 

[RAVAGE88]

I guess we'll see what the screen shots look like in the future, right?

MB

 

[orkan]

Damn right we will.

 

[RAVAGE88]

LOL. Ok.

MB

 

[rookie7]

The 17’s not only shoot poorly but simply fail to kill beyond 100 yards.
I have properly placed shot after shot from 17HMR on coyotes and badgers at 150+ yards with very poor results. Far less lethal than a 22 mag hollow point.

I thought the 17hmr was capable on a regular basis out of pretty much any brand of rifle really good accuracy at 100 yds. Not the case for you?

Too bad about the 17wsm. It appears to be the perfect mid point between 22 LR and 223.

So, If a 22 mag isn’t enough and a person doesn’t want to use a 223 the only other choices are 17 hornet, 22 hornet. and 204 Ruger -if choosing an off the shelf rifle.

 

[RTH1800]

The HMR was decent for accuracy when clean but failed so miserably on 15-50 pound critters that I lost interest.
The WSM did not get close accuracy wise for me. Never shot it in the field. YMMV.

A .204 is superb in every regard for 400 yards in my experience. One of my favorites.

If you get hands on an ACCURATE Hornet it is great 225-250 yard varmint round. I have had a couple and sold them. Most are 1.5 moa or worse and of no interest to me. I have contemplated building a super Hornet but my present .204’s pretty much rule it out.

YMMV

 

[RAVAGE88]

I thought the 17hmr was capable on a regular basis out of pretty much any brand of rifle really good accuracy at 100 yds. Not the case for you?

Too bad about the 17wsm. It appears to be the perfect mid point between 22 LR and 223.

So, If a 22 mag isn’t enough and a person doesn’t want to use a 223 the only other choices are 17 hornet, 22 hornet. and 204 Ruger -if choosing an off the shelf rifle.

I don't have as much experience with the 17HMR so I can't/shouldn't speak to it's capabilities but I do have tons of experience with the 17WSM and 22WMR. As I said above, the 17WSM is horrible, although now I guess we're on pins and needles waiting for screenshots to circle back....although it wasn't great on a different forum. There's a reason Winchester is the only ammo manufacturer for 17WSM and there's a reason so few are making rifles chambered for it, but, those damn screenshots.

The 22WMR is plenty, although @justin amateur is correct about inconsistent ammo and annoying results. When one sticks with the problem without giving up and knows how to use a calculator, there are a few things that can be done to improve the 22WMR with current ammo.

MB

 

[justin amateur]

I push the limits with rimfire.
Using it at distances most won't attempt.

Compare results for y'erself.
22wmr, 17hmr, 17wsm

50 at 200

I think I've come up with a useful scenario...maybe. :rolleyes: 50 shots at 200 yards, rimfire, whatever setup makes you happy. 22lr, 17 hmr, 22wmr, 17hm2, 17wsm, all brands, all types. Full benchrest setup, bipod, bags or one-piece test rest, it doesn't matter. Grab a chunk of cardboard, about...

www.rimfirecentral.com

 

[RAVAGE88]

I push the limits with rimfire.
Using it at distances most won't attempt.

Compare results for y'erself.
22wmr, 17hmr, 17wsm

50 at 200

I think I've come up with a useful scenario...maybe. :rolleyes: 50 shots at 200 yards, rimfire, whatever setup makes you happy. 22lr, 17 hmr, 22wmr, 17hm2, 17wsm, all brands, all types. Full benchrest setup, bipod, bags or one-piece test rest, it doesn't matter. Grab a chunk of cardboard, about...

www.rimfirecentral.com

Saw that when you posted on RFC and appreciate the effort....it's great info.

MB

 

[acudaowner]

if your skills are up to snuff anything is dam accurate people hunted to survive with smooth bore rifles for a long long time and people live and there is nothing inherently accurate about them , stick and rocks as well if they could do you you can do or starve trying . lol

 

[Nodak]

Glad to see that not all believe the only way to shoot a rimfire is to throw money at it.

 

[MarkCZ]

I thought the 17hmr was capable on a regular basis out of pretty much any brand of rifle really good accuracy at 100 yds. Not the case for you?

Too bad about the 17wsm. It appears to be the perfect mid point between 22 LR and 223.

So, If a 22 mag isn’t enough and a person doesn’t want to use a 223 the only other choices are 17 hornet, 22 hornet. and 204 Ruger -if choosing an off the shelf rifle.

The 22 mag is not my go to round, I have had 2 in the past, I just don't like the round. Now that you have one, like said above, get all the brands of ammo and give it a try. As far as guns, what are you wanting, a light weight gun? I have a CZ 455 Varmint in 17 HMR, It shoots very well with CCI 20gr Gamepoints and hornady 20 gr XTP, It is night and day in accuracy with the 20gr bullets. The 22 Hornet is a good little round but not one of my fabs either. I got a Tikka T1X in 22lr, great shoot gun. I had to try a Tikka centerfire, I got a Tikka T3X SS lite in 223, very accurate gun. One round to add to the list is a 222 Rem. Tikka makes in the T3X.
Good luck
Mark

 

[Wrencoforge]

I think there’s a difference between throwing money at it thinking it will make you a better shooter and upgrading a gun because it isn’t accurate..
The question I guess is what do you consider accurate enough.. I had a Savage, and after trying every ammo made, still couldn’t a group better than an inch and a half on it’s good day.. switched to a Tikka and the grouping dropped to a half inch or better. Is that me throwing money at my own lack of skill? If there’s anyone out there who can get that gun to shoot a half inch group you can have it. Right now, we use it with iron sights for plinking cans. It’s fine for that, would also be fine for shooting small game.
People hunted with atlatls for 10 thousand years, at the time that was accurate, but I can tell you, the day the bow was invented, everyone shooting an atlatl was thinking of how to talk their wife into it.

 

[rookie7]

@rth1800 when you say the hornet was 1.5 moa or worse I am assuming you are referring to the 22 version not the 17 hornet?

I have never owned a 204, but did shoot an elderly gentleman’s Ruger No 1 one time at the range. What that polymer tipped bullet did to a pumpkin was spectacular - and all without recoil.

The only negative word I have read about the 204 is muzzle blast is a little much and a 26” barrel is ideal.

I don't have as much experience with the 17HMR so I can't/shouldn't speak to it's capabilities but I do have tons of experience with the 17WSM and 22WMR. As I said above, the 17WSM is horrible, although now I guess we're on pins and needles waiting for screenshots to circle back....although it wasn't great on a different forum. There's a reason Winchester is the only ammo manufacturer for 17WSM and there's a reason so few are making rifles chambered for it, but, those damn screenshots.

The 22WMR is plenty, although @justin amateur is correct about inconsistent ammo and annoying results. When one sticks with the problem without giving up and knows how to use a calculator, there are a few things that can be done to improve the 22WMR with current ammo.

MB

Putting aside any vendettas that may exist will you please or can you go into the reasons why Winchester is the only source of 17wsm ammo and why there are very few rifles chambered for it?

I have always thought if Ruger would offer their Rimfire American with a heavy barrel in 17 wsm they wouldn’t be able to make enough of them.

 

[justin amateur]

Why is Winchester the only producer of the 17wsm?
Patent? Copyright? Control of the nail gun brass?
Nobody else feels the need to compete for the limited market?
17 centerfire already exists and can be reloaded for accuracy?

Just thinking....

 

[RTH1800]

Yes, .22 Hornet.
No experience with .17 Hornet

 

[rookie7]

I love to load rounds, but sometimes it’s nice to grab a box of factory ammo out of the safe and go shoot. That’s part of the joy of shooting 22 lr for me.

 

[RAVAGE88]

@rth1800 when you say the hornet was 1.5 moa or worse I am assuming you are referring to the 22 version not the 17 hornet?

I have never owned a 204, but did shoot an elderly gentleman’s Ruger No 1 one time at the range. What that polymer tipped bullet did to a pumpkin was spectacular - and all without recoil.

The only negative word I have read about the 204 is muzzle blast is a little much and a 26” barrel is ideal.




Putting aside any vendettas that may exist will you please or can you go into the reasons why Winchester is the only source of 17wsm ammo and why there are very few rifles chambered for it?

I have always thought if Ruger would offer their Rimfire American with a heavy barrel in 17 wsm they wouldn’t be able to make enough of them.

Yessir, I've spoken about this in detail in the 111 page Vudoo thread and there's a video on YouTube where I talk about it as well. @justin amateur is hitting on various solid points above and in short, Winchester saw a market using industrial rated brass and for some reason thought it would be a good idea to enter into the rimfire ammo market with a high velocity round. The only gun manufacturer that would launch with them was Savage (I was there right after the project started) and it was a huge flop. In general, the hardness of the brass is a big part of the problem (among many other things) as it requires an incredibly hard hit to ignite the primer compound.

Commercial nail guns work quite differently than firearms and it's incredibly difficult to generate the amount of energy required to create consistent ignition using the fire control systems in semi-auto and bolt action rifles. Cocking forces are increased, trigger pull is heavier and the list of side effects go on and on. As a result, the production fallout of the Savage B-Mag was 97%.

There's a lot more to this story, but....

MB

 

[rookie7]

@RAVAGE88 thank you for the reply!