Expected and realistic 22 magnum accuracy

[rookie7]

I hear ya' Trey.
The problem isn't with the rifles.
Most are capable of decent results at 50 to 100 yards.
The problem is poorly made 22wmr ammunition.
Current production by all the manufacturers seem to have given up on quality
and are simply going for quantity to satisfy corporate demands.
When you can see canted bullets, irregular seating depths, visibly damaged cartridges
from a freshly opened box, you really can't expect consistent tractories.


Find the brand y'er rifle likes doesn't work either.
Federal does not manufacture 22wmr cartridges.
Neither does Remington, Hornady, Norma, FiocchiUSA or Speer.
All of them are relabeled CCI production.
The manufacturer's date code stamped on their boxes are CCI.
Results are dependent on the production tolerances on that day at the CCI plant.

Based on what your saying about re-branding it would be pointless to buy any ammunition to test besides CCI out of the ones you have listed. Unless said ammo cannot be found and a substitute must be made.

 

[justin amateur]

R7, ya' pays y'er money and ya' takes y'er chances.
I've tried them all, Aguila, Armscor, Sellier&Bellot, RWS,
Winchester, Browning (relabeled Winchester) and all the CCI variants.
Results are entirely dependent on batch quality.
You won't know what you bought until you try it.
Welcome to the rimfire ammo lottery.

 

[rookie7]

The need:

Rifle at the ready for predators (coyotes) in my backyard - probably 70 to 75 yard max shot.

I don't own a surpressor right now, so something not too loud if I need to fire the rifle from my back porch at 7:00 am when everyone is asleep in the house.

What I am thinking:

If I want a quality rifle (which I do) - I'm looking at the CZ 457 Varmint.

I like the accuracy of the 17hmr, but not one person here has said they would pick it over the 22mag for my application.

I am not a fan of Savage, and based on @RAVAGE88 assessment of the rifle = pass.

Am I missing anything?

 

[orkan]

If I were limited to rimfire... 17WSM is what I'd pick for that job. If you aren't doing that, then 22mag for sure... unless you feel like some obscure 5mm remington.

Skip the 17HMR completely, unless you like coyotes running off wounded.

 

[justin amateur]

Try the different bullet types of 22wmr.
30/33 gr ballistic tips for meat spray/varminting.
40 grain fmj for skull shots.
40 grain jhp for center of chest.
45 grain for a bit more oomph
and the 50 grain for a serious thump.
A bullet weight and type might work better with y'er rifle.
I like the 40 grain jhp. Punches the ribs and expands for a solid knockdown.
A semi-auto might be a good choice for field carry and quick followup shots.
I use a 455 Varmint with a 16.5 inch Feddersen barrel.

 

[RTH1800]

Don’t forget you can shoot 22 Win Special ammo as an intermediate type load in your Win Mag. Not so loud, not so fast. Accuracy varies as with all the ammo. Suppressing Win Mag does not gain much.

 

[nockhunter]

You could get a CZ512 semi-auto, they seem to be pretty reliable. I like the walnut models.

Mike

 

[jbuck88]

What about the cooper 57m? All the test targets I see are 1 hole. Given they are shot at 50yds and indoors. I would imagine they will hold their own.

I have 2 of the 10/22magums and they hit way above their pay grade. It has been a long time since I shot for groups with them, but if I get the chance I will try and remember to grab one next time to the range.

 

[RAVAGE88]

What about the cooper 57m? All the test targets I see are 1 hole. Given they are shot at 50yds and indoors. I would imagine they will hold their own.

I have 2 of the 10/22magums and they hit way above their pay grade. It has been a long time since I shot for groups with them, but if I get the chance I will try and remember to grab one next time to the range.

When I toured Cooper, they were shooting slightly closer than 25 yards.

MB

 

[orkan]

What about the cooper 57m? All the test targets I see are 1 hole. Given they are shot at 50yds and indoors. I would imagine they will hold their own.

When I toured Cooper, they were shooting slightly closer than 25 yards.

MB

Just so I'm clear, you're saying that cooper's test targets they ship with rifles claim to be shot at 50yds... but they are actually shooting them closer than 25yds?

That is... reprehensible... if true.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Just so I'm clear, you're saying that cooper's test targets they ship with rifles claim to be shot at 50yds... but they are actually shooting them closer than 25yds?

That is... reprehensible... if true.

Yessir, when I toured Cooper, targets were closer than 50 yards, by a long shot. Can't speak to whether they've changed it since, but that would've required a significant build out on a small piece of real estate.

MB

 

[orkan]

Yessir, when I toured Cooper, targets were closer than 50 yards, by a long shot. Can't speak to whether they've changed it since, but that would've required a significant build out on a small piece of real estate.

MB

When were you there?

 

[RAVAGE88]

When were you there?

10 years ago, but my HHHhhhhmmmm moment was seeing the "test range" and recalling the claims of test targets shot at 50 yards. They were busting at the seams at the time on a small piece of land, so unless they've moved since then or made significant changes....

Edit to add: Looking at the address on their website and searching on Google Earth, its the same location and same small building....

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

Skip the 17HMR completely, unless you like coyotes running off wounded.

^^^^THIS is why I've not bothered much with 17HMR. Proned out next to a friend using a HMR, me with a WMR, my coyotes were dead, his ran away.

MB

 

[Nodak]

I was curious enough to ask Cooper. I asked what kind of ammo, what distance and what accuracy guarantee they gave with the 22wmr offerings. This was there response, on a weekend no less.



Thank you for your inquiry with Cooper Firearms.

We currently use three different factory ammo options for the .22WMR. 1. CCI 30gr V-Mav Varmint 2. CCI 30gr V-Max 3. Hornady 30gr V-Max. Our test targets are shot at 50 yards. We guarantee our rifles chambered in .22 WMR to shoot a 1/4" three shot group at 50 yards.

Please let me know if you have any other questions about our rifles.

Best regards,

Brandon Boe
Sales

Cooper Firearms of Montana, Inc

Cell: 608-304-2407

Email: [email protected]

 

[orkan]

Thanks for that @Nodak ... I was going to make a similar inquiry on monday.

Well... it appears we have a situation where one company or the other is making a false claim.

 

[Nodak]

Or just a simple misunderstanding. 10 years is a long time. Especially when you are proud of your own personal offerings.

No disrespect intended. I just know how I remember things from old.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Or just a simple misunderstanding. 10 years is a long time. Especially when you are proud of your own personal offerings.

No disrespect intended. I just know how I remember things from old.

This is an important and appreciated perspective. I know what the claims have always been and I know what I saw way back then. As I stated, it could be different now and the "who shot John" is of no interest to me.

MB

 

[Sixgunjeff]

Cooper's included test target does not state the distance it was fired. Their accuracy guarantee at fifty yards is just that, a accuracy guarantee at 50 yards. The included test target is not intended to be proof of such a guarantee. 40 or 42 yards is the likely distance the targets are shot, from my limited google research.

 

[Nodak]

I wish I could justify either a Cooper or a Vudoo but sadly my self imposed budget is well below that.

 

[orkan]

This is an important and appreciated perspective. I know what the claims have always been and I know what I saw way back then. As I stated, it could be different now and the "who shot John" is of no interest to me.

MB

Maybe so... but I bet it's of interest to cooper. Obviously someone has to be wrong in their claims; you or them. ... and the truth matters.

Cooper's included test target does not state the distance it was fired. Their accuracy guarantee at fifty yards is just that, a accuracy guarantee at 50 yards. The included test target is not intended to be proof of such a guarantee. 40 or 42 yards is the likely distance the targets are shot, from my limited google research.

Their rep said in the email that was posted above, the test targets are fired at 50yds.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Maybe so... but I bet it's of interest to cooper. Obviously someone has to be wrong in their claims; you or them. ... and the truth matters.


Their rep said in the email that was posted above, the test targets are fired at 50yds.

Outside the valid perspectives that have been brought up here, it could very well be of interest to Cooper and you're damned right the truth matters, as long as it's everyone's truth and not represented otherwise for the sake of misguided agendas.

MB

 

[orkan]

Outside the valid perspectives that have been brought up here, it could very well be of interest to Cooper and you're damned right the truth matters, as long as it's everyone's truth and not represented otherwise for the sake of misguided agendas.

MB

The fact that you think my search for truth in things is a "misguided agenda," is very telling. The second I think you start being reasonable in your dealings with me... you attack me. For what reason this time? I've been in the market for a cooper rimfire for years. This interests me greatly, and I try to leave it about the facts, but you want to make it personal. What reason do you have for this? I have plenty of agendas... none of them involve you.

You made a claim, and a bold claim at that, essentially calling out another manufacturer as a liar. I didn't attack you... I spent great effort clarifying your claim so as to not misunderstand you... and now you attack me, claiming I have an agenda. What do I have to do with your claim against cooper? We could be friends anytime you want, but it's behavior like this that stops you from seeing who I am.

 

[RAVAGE88]

The fact that you think my search for truth in things is a "misguided agenda," is very telling. The second I think you start being reasonable in your dealings with me... you attack me. For what reason this time? I've been in the market for a cooper rimfire for years. This interests me greatly, and I try to leave it about the facts, but you want to make it personal. What reason do you have for this? I have plenty of agendas... none of them involve you.

You made a claim, and a bold claim at that, essentially calling out another manufacturer as a liar. I didn't attack you... I spent great effort clarifying your claim so as to not misunderstand you... and now you attack me, claiming I have an agenda. What do I have to do with your claim against cooper? We could be friends anytime you want, but it's behavior like this that stops you from seeing who I am.

The telling part is you believe you're somehow in charge of what the "truth" is. And, for the record, I was reasonable when I reached out via telephone in 2015 to put things in the past, only to have you continue your "agenda" in various places, so, don't play the victim here. Your continued digs have been noted by many, so, "reasonable" goes both ways....your backhanded attacks in your posts here and blatant attacks elsewhere have continued since 2015 when I've not uttered your name, because basically, you've not been relevant.

I made a comment about what I saw 10 years ago and continued to qualify that statement for all here to see. Somehow, many see that for what it is, but you're now on the "truth campaign" as the self professed cape crusader of truth. Get over it.

It's obvious to many you have something to say, so, get it off your chest, what would you like to share?

MB

 

[orkan]

The telling part is you believe you're somehow in charge of what the "truth" is. And, for the record, I was reasonable when I reached out via telephone in 2015 to put things in the past, only to have you continue your "agenda" in various places, so, don't play the victim here. Your continued digs have been noted by many, so, "reasonable" goes both ways....your backhanded attacks in your posts here and blatant attacks elsewhere have continued since 2015 when I've not uttered your name, because basically, you've not been relevant.

I made a comment about what I saw 10 years ago and continued to qualify that statement for all here to see. Somehow, many see that for what it is, but you're now on the "truth campaign" as the self professed cape crusader of truth. Get over it.

It's obvious to many you have something to say, so, get it off your chest, what would you like to share?

MB

You obviously have strong feelings... and have thought about me much more than I've thought about you. I guess I should have thought about you more, if I expected you to treat me fairly. It's unfortunate you feel as you do, and I wish you the best.

 

[RAVAGE88]

You obviously have strong feelings... and have thought about me much more than I've thought about you. I guess I should have thought about you more, if I expected you to treat me fairly. It's unfortunate you feel as you do, and I wish you the best.

Exactly what I thought....

MB

 

[Sixgunjeff]

Maybe so... but I bet it's of interest to cooper. Obviously someone has to be wrong in their claims; you or them. ... and the truth matters.


Their rep said in the email that was posted above, the test targets are fired at 50yds.

Brandon Boe is in sales. My guess is he doesn't know the difference between 42 and 50 yards and has always assumed the the range was 50 yards. How about asking someone at Cooper who actually shots the test targets? The test targets do not state the range on them.

 

[orkan]

Brandon Boe is in sales. My guess is he doesn't know the difference between 42 and 50 yards and has always assumed the the range was 50 yards. How about asking someone at Cooper who actually shots the test targets? The test targets do not state the range on them.

Do you have a contact there? Who should I ask for when I call on monday? Even still... the distance between 42yds and "slightly closer than 25yds" is a pretty big disparity.

 

[nesikabay]

Ravage88 Orkan has an agenda . he is trying to build and sell the RimX. He had me kick off of a thread on 6mmbr. Because i said dont get your wifes panties in a wad. He said and i Quote RimX is the new apex of rimfire repeaters. I told him one day it might be but today it is not. It went down hill from there. If he can get ahold of Cooper and show them what you posted and cause you trouble he will. Thats the way he is

 

[Sgeorge]

That explains quite a bit

 

[RAVAGE88]

Ravage88 Orkan has an agenda . he is trying to build and sell the RimX. He had me kick off of a thread on 6mmbr. Because i said dont get your wifes panties in a wad. He said and i Quote RimX is the new apex of rimfire repeaters. I told him one day it might be but today it is not. It went down hill from there. If he can get ahold of Cooper and show them what you posted and cause you trouble he will. Thats the way he is

I'm aware, thanks NB.

@orkan and I are talking via PM now.

MB

 

[orkan]

Ravage88 Orkan has an agenda.

Indeed I do have an agenda. I have many. One of them is to always ensure my wife is treated with respect, and if you think your post is any more appropriate here than it was elsewhere, I feel sorry for you. Some boundaries are best left uncrossed.

 

[nesikabay]

If you and Orkan are talking let him know the firing pin is to long. I have one and the first thing my Well known rimfire smith said was firing pin length

 

[nesikabay]

Ok Orkan i am truley sorry you thought i was disrespecting your wife I assure i was not. The reason i said dont get your wifes panties in a wad is because I in my opinion you were wearing you wifes panties and getting them in a wad. Because i didnt agree with you. I never one time said the RimX was a bad or sorry action. I said it was not the apex or best yet. It may well be in time. Also as with all things new it takes time to see what works and does not. From the looks of what you have done and your shooting your onto something. I am sorry you thought what i said was about your wife i didnt mean it that way. I have close to 3 grand going into a Rimx to see what it will do for me. There are few things like getting the mags set in place right. Maybe that is an issue only i have had. But i wish you the best of luk building and making it work i really mean it. Hell look at Vudoo they are always trying to improve what they build. I dont see why You wouldnt want to do that with a Rimx. As a builder you look for ways to make what you have better. You have the time and im sure the know how. Put it to use

 

[orkan]

Despite the fact that I did nothing today to warrant this attack on my character, these situations have become increasingly easy for me recently. So much so that they don't even generate ill feelings. Sometimes people are just terrible to one another. It's been going on since long before I was here, and it will be going on long after I'm gone. I've long since set down any burden I carry for others and their offenses toward me. It's their burden, not mine. Time helps a person understand some things, and as I may not have understood a decade ago, it doesn't stop me from understanding today. Each day is a choice, and you can be more, or you can be less. I see people spitting vile nonsense at each other all day on this forum and others. Discussions of the facts are warranted. Even heated opinion sharing is warranted, as I demonstrated in my belief of the 17WSM to be superior to 22mag earlier in this thread. Personal attacks such as those displayed here today, are not warranted.

That's why this is really easy for me, while it's apparently very difficult for others: Sorry for any grief I may have caused you years ago mike. I was offended by you constantly back then, and you I, which was obvious for anyone to see. It's clear you're still carrying it around, and I'm sorry for that too. It must be a burden, as made obvious through your posts today. I've long since tossed that burden away. Years have gone by with no words spoken between us nor one about the other... and so your attack on me comes out of the blue today. It's as unwarranted as it was 10 or more years ago. My only apparent offense, searching for the truth regarding test targets for rifles I was personally interested in. I'll still search for the truth in that as well. Monday will hopefully be fruitful in that regard. Fact is, I don't really need other people's acknowledgement of what is wrong... but it is nice when I have an opportunity to see faith in my fellow man restored. Doesn't always happen, and it's apparent it won't happen today, and that's OK too.

While I'm not perfect, I do attempt to be. I hold others to that expectation as well. Lack of success in some attempts does not overshadow any of the successes in others, nor stop me from attempting perfection in the future. While I've had no success in convincing Mike Bush to revoke the attempt to assassinate my character today... I also hold no burden for it. I've offended a great many people in my life for one reason or the next. In the past, many had good reason to be offended. However, for a long time now I've tried diligently to give them no logical ground in their offense. I've reconciled with a tremendous number of those people as a result. Despite that, some will always be offended, it seems. Some don't like the truth. Some don't like competition. Some don't like the way I shoot or the way I talk about products. Some simply don't like the fact that I'm more today than I was years ago at the time of the offense.

It's an unfortunate reality that people will say untrue and hurtful things about me. Despite that, I'm quite joyful, as there are a tremendous number of people that love my unique way of looking at things and encourage my sharing those views with them and others. They enjoy products I've invented, methods I've pioneered, but most of all; they enjoy my steadfast search for the truth in things. Perhaps only secondarily to my absolute adherence to propagating only what I really believe, at any cost. I look forward to continuing to be able to do that, and it will continue to be to help and educate those that want it, not to spite those that don't.

I hope this sunday finds you all well, and I'll report back with my findings from Cooper on monday!

 

[nesikabay]

your taking this to personal calm down. Keep doing what you do. Im not attacking you. I just saying slow down and think. You take this shit a personal attack. If you build what you have the market will decide if it worth it. If the market decides your right you will survive.

 

[nesikabay]

Your putting to muck felling into it. The market does not care how you feel. It wants what works today it is a Vudoo tomorrow it could change.

 

[nesikabay]

OK i know my spelling sux

 

[nesikabay]

As a side not letting us know your Cooper finding will hurt you. Your going to Cooper to hurt the compitition.

 

[nesikabay]

Keep digging the hole. It will soon get to deep

 

[RAVAGE88]

Greg, I appreciate your post and as I stated in our PMs, I'd go as far as you're willing to go. It's unfortunate it has taken this long and unfortunate that we had to go through what we did to get here. Today was the second time I reached out, the first was in 2015 via telephone (today via PM) to try and get us to a place to move on. I recall a decent enough conversation in 2015 but our conversation was completely ignored. Today, you initially refused to accept my offer to move on because you stated you "need something more." After I was accused of character assassination and using "venom," I pasted your written words and asked if what I said was anything like your written words. Eventually, we came to a place where apologies were part of the discussion and I gave an option of you apologizing publicly or privately, this was after you demanded a public apology. You chose to apologize privately, which I appreciated but it was the easy way out while still demanding a public apology. I mentioned that since you chose to go the private route, I'd do the same as I owed you nothing, and I apologized privately.

After doing so, I mentioned I'd roll with this however this unfolds and will watch the actions going forward because, as I stated, I have reason to not trust you and plenty of reason to dislike you. I mentioned if you offered a public apology, I'd reciprocate in kind, so, I sincerely apologize for all that has happened over the years. I never like being sideways with anyone and have worked my ass off to make things right, and I have made things right. This will be the very last time I'll ever reference this. I have too much respect for Frank, Sniper's Hide and the community here to play ridiculous games and what I post will always be the truth, like it or not. I'm sharing the context of our PMs because it's true and this community has watched this whole thing play out. On top of that, I have absolutely nothing to hide.

As far as Monday, drama is drama and a "who shot John" scenario isn't necessarily what I'd consider to be worth the time. I watch your videos and they're very well done. The info you provide has value and I agree with most everything you say and in those areas where I don't agree doesn't mean you're being personally attacked. Reading through what has happened in this thread offers context to what I'm saying. So, do the RimX thing, that's what people want to see, hell, I do to. Leave the drama to other forums and let's make this about advancing the shooting sports for the community, believe me, it's worth it.

MB

 

[nesikabay]

Ok i just reread the 6mmbr post. You said and if im wrong please correct me. But a barrel action on a rimX from you would be North of 2 grand you said that. I can get a Vudoo for 1600 from Mile high with a mag. Please respond if im wrong.

 

[nesikabay]

LOLOLOLOL when you started the Cooper/ Vudoo deal and contacted cooper . To stir shit tha was a bad move. I HOPE YOU LIKE HOW IT PLAYS OUT

 

[nesikabay]

I know you dont know who i am but you just cost Rimx and Zemmit money

 

[tarzan]

i dont know if ravage 88 can judge distance or not but he can build a world class 22

 

[orkan]

@nesikabay Mike and I are apparently reconciled... so whats the problem exactly? I don't view voodoo to be a competitor of mine. Never have, and don't now. So I'm not sure what angle you're working at here. I didn't ask for this, and have been attacked the whole day over things I didn't do or say.

I simply want to know the truth about rifles I'm interested in. Anyone that knows me, knows I love wood and blued steel rimfires... and I've been watching for the "right" cooper for a long time now, and the true distance those test targets get shot at, matters to me. Until this thread, I had no reason to believe they weren't at the advertised distance of 50yds. I'm inclined to believe they are, just as cooper says... but its a serious accusation, so who am I to believe? I think they deserve a call before I just dismiss them from my list of obscure desires, don't you?. All this hate toward me, assuming I'm going to tell cooper about this thread. I had no intention. They're likely to find out anyway. Sorry if you think searching for the truth makes me a bad guy, but I'm not the one that made the claim. So, take it up with @RAVAGE88 He doesn't seem worried about it.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Cool, at this point, let's get the thread back on track.

MB

 

[dddoo7]

I really like Orkan's honesty. I have seen him quit selling money making products cold because they did not perform as they should. I look forward to seeing the result of the up coming testing on the RimX. New products are always interesting but they are even more interesting when they have been wrung out by someone who is honest and knows what they are talking about.

 

[Nodak]

From a long long time RFC member that I care to believe. It's just his experience and backs up Ravage88's rememberings. One needs to be carful on guarantees. I was told by a Snap on salesman "the best guarantee is one you'll never have to use". That has stayed with me.


Cooper had just come out with their new Model 36 rifle in .22LR, and was advertising it would shoot 1/4" groups at 50 yards, guaranteed. As I was heavily into BR-50 competition at the time, I knew how hard it was to actually shoot groups that small, so it was surprising to me that they guaranteed that accuracy, especially with basically a sporter rifle.

I did really like the looks of the Model 36 and mulled over getting one for awhile...kept thinking that, well, they guaranteed 1/4" groups, so they must have done something right with the gun. I finally ordered one.

Beautiful rifle and the test target showed a tiny group shot with Fiocchi Match ammo. Went to the range, and after several range outings, using all the best flavors of match ammo I could get, never once did it shoot a 1/4" group. Many were good groups, but not that small.

Contacted the distributor about the problem, and after a long discussion he said to send it back. Got the gun back in a couple of months. They had installed a Lilja barrel with custom Calfee chamber that I asked for, and the gun did shoot those 1/4" groups at 50 yards, including the Eley Tenex test target.

Meanwhile, in discussions with personnel at Cooper, I found out how they actually came up with that guarantee. They didn't even have a 50-yard test range! All groups were shot at 25 yards, with various ammo types. The tester would continue firing groups at 25 yards until they came up with a 1/8" group. Then they would interpolate that into a 1/4" group at 50 yards!

Knowledgeable folks know that doubling the yardage doesn't mean you can just double the group size. A quarter-inch group shot at 25 yards doesn't mean the gun will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards. You have to actually shoot at each distance you may be using the gun for to see what happens.

Cooper may have changed their testing since then, I don't know. But I do know that they did honor that guarantee and it didn't cost me a dime.

 

[rookie7]

Glad we have a cease fire, so let's get this thread somewhat back on track.

@RAVAGE88 and anyone else for that matter - do you think we will ever see better quality 22 mag ammo?

An accurate 22 mag would be nice, but based on the headaches and experiences shared in this thread if I buy another one (sold the Ruger American) I'm just joining the frustrated headache club if I expect 1" at 100.

So, for now I am going to hold off on purchase. It's not like I HAVE to have a 22 mag right now. It would be nice to have it sitting in the bedroom corner waiting on those yotes to come back to my yard to steal my animals. I have a Win 70 lightweight in 223 that I can give that job to for now - and it is shooting Sierra 50 gr Blitzkings really well.

Anybody have an insider speculation on the future of the 17 WSM?

I would love to build a rifle for this purpose. Seems like a 17 hornet would be perfect, but I have read how they are finicky to load for along with other problems - seems .20 caliber is where the sweet spot starts.