Advanced Marksmanship Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 26, 2003
4,002
15
Rifles Only
www.arcanamavens.com
I've been using Blaine Fields' PDA program, Field Firing Solutions, for several months. If you're not familiar with the program, check out the manual for the program, which is here:

http://www.precisionworkbench.com/Download/Manuals/FFS%20Manual.pdf

My wife and I were up in Colorado for much of the summer, and returned to find that Blaine had made some interesting additions to the program.

The first is on the main screen, which looks like this:

main.jpg


The new feature is the "PS" button, which pops up a new screen with all of the data which goes into the shot calculation: Pressure, Temperature, Humidity, Bullet Profile (caliber, weight, B.C., DK, Muzzle velocity, and Turret Profile.)

He also made some changes to the Trajectory Table screen, which displays firing data after the calculation. The screen looks like this:

elevation1.jpg


The first change is that the program calculates bullet velocity at each range displayed in the table. It's in the last column to the right on that page - but you can also display it without scrolling to the right, by clicking on the Turret column. When you do that, the Turret column changes to Velocity. Click it again, and it toggles back to the Turret display.

Having the velocity is very handy, if you're concerned about whether your bullets are staying supersonic to a particular range. With this display, you can see where they go subsonic, if that's the case.

The second change is the addition of a Hold column, which you get by clicking on the Elevation column heading. When you do so, it changes from Elevation to Hold, and looks like this:

elevation2.jpg


Note that the Hold column becomes 0 (zero) at the range specified in the Range window.

If you are shooting a drill like Moving Chaos at Rifles Only, where you must engage multiple targets at multiple ranges with tight time limits, this facility is <span style="font-weight: bold">very</span> handy. You can set the Range window for one range, and instantly see the holdovers and holdunders for your load for other ranges.

This program has become essential to me. Among the features I consider essential are the ability to include temperature sensitivity of the powder into the firing solution, and the Deceleration Coefficient, which allows you to tweak the elevation calculation to the actual measured field performance of your specific load.

Also, the Turret profiles will help keep you on the right turn of your multi-turn elevation turret, as well as show the correct setting for turrets which are not calibrated precisely in MOA. An example is my Leupold 6.5-20X50M1, whose clicks are labeled in MOA, but actually are in 1.0 inches per hundred yards (instead of 1.047 inches per hundred yards, which is true MOA.)

If you're in the market for a good ballistics program with advanced features, I think that there's nothing on the market even close to this one.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Very cool. I guess I'll have to update my PDA situation so's I can run this in the field.
I've really enjoyed using the desktop version of Precision Shooter's Workbench (c). I especially like the turret data and the super/trans/sub-sonic color coding of the range data.

Thanks for the head's up.

John
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

How does this program differ (in a better way) to the Exbal program?

Does this program allow you to input the direction the wind is blowing vs the bullet travel?
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

FFS allows input of both wind direction and target direction. Wind direction in degrees is displayed in the box on the main screen in the box labeled "Direct", right under the wind speed. Target direction is displayed in the box labeled "Heading."

The program combines the wind lead and the moving target lead into the output box labeled "Holdoff MIL".

One thing which is useful to remember is that the program conforms to the common practice of describing wind direction as the direction the wind is blowing <span style="font-weight: bold">from</span>, while target heading is the direction the target is moving <span style="font-weight: bold">towards</span>.

For example, when we say, "north wind", we mean a wind which is blowing <span style="font-style: italic">from</span> the north. And both wind and target direction are, of course, relative to the line of sight between the shooter and the target.

Once you get that straight, playing with the program helps one understand that when the wind and the target are <span style="font-style: italic">going</span> in the same direction, one will need less wind hold, while the target and the wind going in opposite direction will require an increased wind hold.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Here's another feature of that program I like - the Wind Card.

windcard.jpg


Once you have specified the wind speed and direction on the main screen, clicking on the "Windage" button gets you to this screen. It displays the hold in wind, in both Mils and MOA, for a wind from the specified direction for winds from 0 to 25 miles per hour.

That way you can see how much your hold should change if the wind gusts above or below what you've specified. The "Mil Hold" column is for people who dial wind, to show how much to change the hold for a wind above or below the specified wind speed - a zero in that column occurs at the wind speed specified on the main screen.

I have a spreadsheet which does the same calculation for the standard 175SMK load I shoot under standard conditions for a full-value wind - but this wind card is handier, because it calculates for any load and conditions specified, and with any wind direction, not just a full-value wind.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy,
Very interesting .
Would you mind indicating its advantages vis-a-vis the Atrag/Horus ballistic program?
I see it allows you to use the Cosine (which may be obtained from your ACI), in computing angular corrections, as opposed to the angle which the Horus software requires.
Any other high-utility stand out features?
Price comparison?
Thank you for the heads up.
JM
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Well, here are some comparisons:

Advantage Atrag:
Clean user interface - all parameters shown on one screen.

You can page up and down in Gunlist, while keeping target and environment parameters constant. That way, if you and a buddy are using the same system, you can just flip back and forth between solutions.

Runs on a Palm Pilot, which are available inexpensively, often used at low prices.

Disadvantage Atrag: Runs only on Palm OS.

Most expensive program. The MP version of Atrag costs <span style="font-weight: bold">twice</span> what Lex Talus charges for both the P.C. and PDA/Pocket P.C. versions of its software.

The Lex Talus software runs only on a Pocket P.C., which is a more expensive platform.

However, FFS is a far more capable program than Atrag.

Its file capabilities are far more extensive. Rather than just the Gunlist Atrag has, you can save profiles for atmospheric data, load data, scope turrets, and system (everything in one file).

In addition, it has a built in database of bullet data and commercial cartridges.

FFS allows tuning your output data to match your results from shooting in the field. While that can be done in Atrag by tuning bullet B.C.s or muzzle velocity, each of those methods has side effects.

FFS computes the wind card shown above, which Atrag does not have.

FFS has multiple ranging modes, including GPS and map-derived position data for both FFP (Final Firing Positions) and targets. Once the target data is entered, if you move your FFP, all you need to do is enter the new FFP position, and the program instantly recalculates bearing and range data to the targets. Double-click on a target in the target list, and the program switches to the main screen with a firing solution for the chosen target.

The main screen firing solution displays data in both MOA and mils simultaneously, while with Atrag you must choose one or the other.

Take a look through the manual linked above, and I think you will find that FFS is the most comprehensive ballistic program available for field use.

I've been using a Palm Pilot as a PDA for 10 years. Ward Brien of Snipertools told me that I would really like the Pocket P.C. once I got used to it, and he was right - it's replaced the Palm Pilot as my primary PDA. It will run Excel spreadsheets as well as run a whole host of other software.

With the addition of terminal velocity calculations to the FFS program, I have no need to run any other software.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Doesn't seem as detailed as exbal when I bought the version just prior to the 2004-2006 deployment. Not reading everything and knowing if what you are playing with has the option to save any types or rounds and calibers to use that I know exbal does I can at least say the exbal late 2004 had a good spin up of everything downrange going on with clicks to go with drop and wind. I'll stick with exbal. Maybe just to be lazy but eh
smile.gif
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

FFS has file capabilities for specific loads, just as Exbal does. FFS also has the ability to save files with atmospheric data, scope turret data, a default data file which is the one which loads when the program starts, and system files which have everything in it, which Exbal does not.

FFS is a program for people interested in more advanced capabilities. Exbal is a fine program, and if it meets your needs, then you should stick with it. That doesn't make you lazy.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

i have always used exbal. have been for years.

this is the first i'd hear of this program. to bad i'd have to spend $150 bucks + for a handheld to use it
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Guys,
Where can i find info on these programs? I.e. requirements for pda etc. Where is the best place to buy the programs?TIA
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which Pocket PC do you recommend to run this software?</div></div>None. I have done no research on Pocket P.C.s. I retired quite blissfully from computer geekdom in 1999, and am now just another user. I bought a Dell X51V with both Bluetooth and WiFi, just in case I might need them, running Windows Mobile 5.0.

It works fine with everything I've tried it with including FFS - and I am happy to leave that subject alone.

I think on the Lex Talus site is a list of handhelds known to work - and if not, drop the author a note.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the FFS top out at 25mph, like the ATRAG stops at 23mph, for wind?</div></div>Nope. It's still cranking out wind solutions at least up to 74 mph, in case you want to shoot in a hurricane. At 1000 yards with a 74 mph wind, it calculates that you're going to need 76.5 MOA of windage, which you can't dial and can't hold on any scope I know of. I guess you could calculate a holdoff based on multiples of the target width, though, if you have enough field of view in your scope. Good luck with that! Please let us know how that works out for you!
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P.S. - Jacob Bynum built the tower at Rifles Only to withstand hurricane-velocity wind. A structural engineer estimated that the wooden decking would rip off about 140 mph or so, but the tower would go higher than any recorded hurricane. So, one of these days, we may get to find out if those solutions work. Jacob will be shooting, and I'll probably be dumb enough to be strapped to the tower with my PDA in hand doing calculations for him.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

I was inspired by Lindy's comments and as a beginner to Precision shooting, I am trying to assemble the best tools to learn and work with. I clicked on the link an went directly to the tutorial tab and the 1st paragraph read;

This software is designed as a set of tools for the shooter to wring the most out of his equipment and to maximize the chances of a cold-bore, first round hit on target at range. To use the tools requires a certain level of competence and effort. If the shooter either does not have the level of knowledge necessary to engage this software or does not wish to expend the effort necessary to develop the data critical to create useful and meaningful trajectory output, then we suggest buying software that is less demanding to use.

Well, I guess I'm not qualified to use this program so I was wondering if anyone would suggest an easier, more intuitive, or kinder program / company that would help their less skilled customers improve?
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This software is designed as a set of tools for the shooter to wring the most out of his equipment and to maximize the chances of a cold-bore, first round hit on target at range. To use the tools requires a certain level of competence and effort. If the shooter either does not have the level of knowledge necessary to engage this software or does not wish to expend the effort necessary to develop the data critical to create useful and meaningful trajectory output, then we suggest buying software that is less demanding to use.</div></div>I have Exbal, Atrag - both 2P and MP, and FFS running on systems sitting in front of me. I have fairly extensive experience with all three programs.

That paragraph is just as true of Exbal and Atrag.

The work which must be done to use any of them to produce accurate results is the same. You must check the calibration of the elevation clicks in your scope. (While you are doing that, check the accuracy of the marks in your reticle.)

You need to know your muzzle velocity, preferably under a variety of temperatures.

You must have a way to know the barometric pressure and temperature accurately.

You must know the difference between barometric pressure referenced to sea level, which is what is reported by your TV and radio stations and NOAA, and the station pressure, which is the actual atmospheric pressure at at particular location.

And you must gather shooting data, preferably at long range, so that you can "tune" the program output to match your actual shooting results.

With respect to that last step, FFS is the <span style="font-style: italic">only</span> program of the three which has an explicit mechanism for doing that.

Note that <span style="font-weight: bold">none</span> of the steps above has <span style="font-weight: bold">anything</span> to do with the software.

The software, in all three cases, is easy to learn to use. FFS has more features than the other programs, but some of those features need not be used. You don't need to use the ability of FFS to use map and GPS data to make a range card, for example.

I have no fiduciary interest in any software program. I have all three programs in their current versions.

FFS is the one I use - except to teach students how to run the others.

Now, if you are not interested in doing the work necessary to increase the probability of making an accurate cold-bore shot at significant range, what you need is not one program or another.

What you need is <span style="font-weight: bold">no</span> program. Just go shoot.

You'll have less chance of making those long shots, especially if you shoot in a variety of conditions. But you can gather useful information every time you shoot, and, if you shoot under a lot of different conditions, you'll eventually come to know your rifle and load and what it will do.

Just go shoot. Because the purpose of all three programs is the same.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy, great review.

Do you know what methodology they are using for calculating traj? I am just moving from point-mass to 6-DOF. I doubt that PDA have the required processing power, but haven't run results against live data to see if the better methodology results in more accurate predictions, at least in a meaningful way.

How large are the typical long range corrections versus preducted results?
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy,

Sounds good so far! I've been considering 'upgrading' my PDA/Exbal combo to something that would run FFS... the Palm Tungsten 'E' running Exbal (aka 'the secret squirrel') has been pretty good about giving me spot-on answers out to 600yds. Longer range answers have been off more than I'd expect, and I need to put my nose to the grindstone and do some of the base-line testing you mentioned.

One question on the FFS software... it does some nifty (and even useful) things for multiple wind speeds/angles at different points on the range to come up w/ an aggregate or composite wind value. Like I said, nifty. But is there any provision for a wind 'clock' or something that would give equivalent information? Our 1k range around here switches a *lot*... and at speeds (both in mph and the rate at which it switches) where a person could go from hitting their own target to the ones on either side over the space of 3-4 shots (and the targets are on 10' centers!). Having to stop and fiddle w/ a stylus btwn shots for each wind angle (like w/ the Exbal) is less than useful in this scenario (F-Class), so I've kind of reverted back to a dead-tree format wind chart or clock. If the FFS software can display something of this sort, I'd probably have to go and spend some more $$$
laugh.gif


Thanks,

Monte
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Tod: there is some information in the P.C. version manual, which is available on the web site in PDF format. Beyond that, you'll need to chat with the program author for details.

FFS uses a deceleration constant to fine-tune the prediction to your actual shooting results. One will want to give the program long-range results to use to calculate that. In my experience, that results in very accurate predictions at long range - which is where I'd want them.

I've used the program on a large number of different loads in different rifles chambered in different calibers, and find that it gives quite accurate results, even before I have tuned the deceleration constant.

Of course, to rigorously test any ballistic program, one would have to fire a lot of rounds over a chronograph at a target at significant range, precisely record the point of impact of each round - which pretty much means spotting each round on paper - and see how the program had predicted each point of impact for the velocity recorded.

I've not done that with this program or any other. If someone wishes to perform that kind of test on any ballistic program, and write up the results, I'd love to read the results.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Monte: the program wind chart gives output for winds from 0 to 25 mph for wind from the specified direction. It doesn't have an equivalent output for a wind of a specified magnitude from various directions.

If you would find that useful, you might want to drop the author a note - although I expect that he's following this thread - as I've found him quite open to suggestions.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

A general thought about ballistic programs: one thing to keep in mind in any discussion of ballistic software is that no program can be spot on with every shot at long distances - because shots vary in muzzle velocity.

Chronograph enough rounds - in my experience at least 20, and more would be better - and you can calculate, or the chronograph will calculate for you, the standard deviation (SD) of the shot population you've measured.

Lets say that you've got a good load, and the average or mean velocity is 2650 fps and the SD is 10 fps. The SD is the <span style="font-style: italic">average</span> deviation of the shots from the mean.

What that means, to a statistician, is <span style="font-style: italic">if</span> the population measured is representative of much larger population of all such rounds which will be fired from this rifle, the velocity distribution will look like this:

About 2/3rds (68.3 percent) will be within one standard deviation, i.e., between 2640 fps and 2660 fps.

Another 27 percent (for 95.4 percent total) will fall within two standard deviations, between 2630 fps and 2670 fps.

Another 4.3 percent (for 99.7 percent total) will fall within 3 standard deviations, between 2620 fps and 2680 fps.

So, <span style="font-weight: bold">almost</span> all of our shots will fall between 2620 and 2680 - which is a 60 fps range. If you run those numbers through a standard ballistic program, you'll see why you won't get a perfect call for your ballistic program at extended ranges - even if the program does a <span style="font-weight: bold">perfect</span> job of modeling the atmosphere to calculate the elevation for the <span style="font-weight: bold">average</span> shot.

So, while a good ballistic program will increase your probability of making that long shot, an increased probability is what you get - not a perfect prediction, because the program cannot know what the actual muzzle velocity of <span style="font-weight: bold">your</span> shot will be.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Right. Which is what I meant by meaningful predictions. I'm sure we all remember learning about least significant digits, error propogation, etc.

I suspect that the 6-POF model will prove no more accurate than point mass, at least in terms of rifle fire. In the case of long range artillery, that might be another matter.

Still, it's an interesting mathematical excercise, even if it adds little real world value. Got to keep those little gray cells working.

Besides, for those of us who don't live in the PC world, there aren't a lot of options.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy mentioned this software in a another thread I posted. I was all but decided on AtragMP until I started looking at the manuals for FFS.

The only thing that I can see as an advantage in Atrag is the MV temperature change table. I don't mean specifically their method of compensation, but the table itself. I don't have extensive MV data on hand, but it seems unlikely to me that MV change is linear over a large temperature range.

Also, FFS has the multiple wind zones, but does I didn't see the ability to have different profiles for this. Does it have them? Sometimes the wind keeps changing, but each time, stays constant for several minutes.

I like that you can buy the PDA and FFS for the same price as Atrag though. Especially since the old Palm Vx isn't going to cut it for either.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

One thing I just noticed; the website seems to imply that elevation is only available in MOA, but the manual (and pic above) shows both MOA and MIL.

I'm guessing/hoping the website is just out of date...
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Actually, FFS will do IPHY or anything else as well - you just specify the elevation changes as part of the turret profile.

For example, when I'm shooting a rifle with one of my Leupold 6.5-20X50M1s, which adjusts in inches per hundred yards, it gives me the turret setting on the main screen in addition to the elevation in both MOA and milliradians.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

How is a dV/deg linear function for estimating MV change with temperature? Probably ok with Varget...

Does anyone have MV over temperature data they could share. Just curious about this...
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

It depends on whether the particular powder you're using has a linear response to temperature. There's only one way to find that out - through testing.

If it's not, you can just set the dV/deg function to zero, and change the muzzle velocity manually as appropriate.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

If you change your MV manually though, your scope zero isn't going to match your range zero right? At least thats the issue I have currently with the free Palm programs I'm using. I have to keep track of both MV and the shift at my zero range. That can also be corrected for manually, but its a pet peeve I have with the software.

I like automation, especially when something is predictable and test data can be entered to derive it.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Don't think so. There is no shift in your zero range. For a typical .308 load, the trajectory is flat within 0.1 inches from 70 yards to 106 yards, and changing the muzzle velocity slightly won't change your zero to any noticable extent.

I've tested my loads over the temperature range from about 40 degrees to 100, and I haven't seen any.

And I don't much care what happens inside 600 yards. It's outside that range where I want really accurate data, because there's less tolerance for error. The program I use most often works fine - the weekend after Thanksgiving, it predicted the elevation of a 1000 yard shot, BP=30.3" and temperature of 45 degrees F., within 0.1 mil. Good enough for me.

And I'm late for a nap. Ciao.


 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

I usually just point the rifle in the general direction of the target, close my eyes and hope for the best. Oh, and I squeeze the trigger with my pinky... Is that wrong?

I do like the idea of holding my breath though. The trick is to fire off the shot just before you pass out. Then when you come to, look around at everybody and ask enthusiastically: "Did I hit it? Did I hit it?"
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Neat stuff!!

I've been thinking of Blaine and Lex Talus with the ballistics topics of late(some of you may remember that Blaine got a lot of his input on his prior PC based calculator, Precision Shooter's Workbench, from Hide members)?

I'm impressed he has gone into much more depth on the turret input and variables. I was fortunate enough to have a hand in helping him get a grasp of just being able to format for multi rev turrets and the importance of knowing where what rev your zero is at and keeping track of that.

If I were a PDA user I'd definately be looking hard at this one, but I'm still using field cards from PSW, I just wish there were more options for size and range increments.

His ballistics once tweaked to the individual load/conditions come out as reliable as any programs I've tried so far in my weapons.

I still put my mil holds on a piece of tape on the stock for engaging multiple distances, works for now, but someday I'll get to RO and see just how bad I am at it!!
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy said:
You must have a way to know the barometric pressure and temperature accurately.

You must know the difference between barometric pressure referenced to sea level, which is what is reported by your TV and radio stations and NOAA, and the station pressure, which is the actual atmospheric pressure at at particular location./quote]

Lindy,
A bit off track from the original topic but I have a Kestrel 4000 and use it for BP. Is this referenced to sea level or station pressure and how critical is the difference. If not is there a way to measure station pressure with the Kestrel. Is BP that important at closer ranges ie 100-500 metres. I am not shooting past 900 metres and never really paid too much attention to BP. Thanks.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy, maybe you can give me some direction on this. I want to see about getting an updated version (have v3.2) but the email for support bounces. Any ideas?

Thanks,
jc
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

I got a response from that address, which I emailed with a link to this thread. Blaine said he'd contact you directly.

Some email addresses are sensitive to origination address, probably as a result of spam filters, as well. I got two bounced messages going to someone, changed to one of my other email addresses, and got through on the third.

I saw a note recently that 90 percent of the traffic on the Internet was spam email. Those people deserve a hot spot in hell.

 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy,

Well, I tried it again. Even copied the address from your post to make sure I was using the correct (and correctly spelled) address.

It bounced.

Here's what I got:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>The following addresses had delivery problems:

<[email protected]>
Permanent Failure: Other address status
Delivery last attempted at Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:40:58 -0000
</pre></div></div>

I'm clueless. (that's what my wife tells me all the time)

jc
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy, thanks for the review. I have the program and love it.

Only thing I would like changed is the PDA that runs it. I have an Axim and it has no problem running it with 500mhz processor in it. Only thing is the screen can be hard to see on a bright day. If they made a pda that can run it like my old Palm M125 that uses AAA batteries that would be perfect for the field use.

For that reason I keep looking at Atrag to try out on the M125.

But, when I chrony a load, put in weather info from my kestrel, enter info into FFS, then make a first round hit at 1000 on steel with a new load, I have a hard time switching.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

+1 for Blaine's Fields Firing Solution.

He shoots with us out here in Sac and I have seen him make hit after hit using his PDA and the FFS. Also a strong supporter of our shooting community.
 
Re: Field Firing Solutions Ballistic Software

Lindy,

I heard from Blaine and responded to that email address and, guess what? That email bounced as well. I'm starting to think his mail server doesn't like me.

I am trying with a different email address so maybe this one will get through.

All I want to do is upgrade from 3.2 to 3.3.

Thanks again,

jc


Well, that didn't take long. Bounced again.

Like I said, I just want to upgrade to the latest version and need to know what's required.