^^^It is because it is so it is, isn't as good an argument as you might think.
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Ghost-Gun Company Raided by Federal Agents
- Thread starter Animal357
- Start date
Its their fault for being in this type of business that must be delicately maneuvered to stay within the confines of not only the law but the regulatory bodies who enforce them.............and doing something this colossally stupid.
Your are crying like a child who can't get their way. Adults understand there are a lot of things we disagree with , but you need to live responsibly. Those that choose not to, tend to pay the price.
There are things that everyone hates and disagrees with and if everyone just did what they want, we would have this thing called Anarchy. If you are going to break the law, at least have the wisdom to do it intelligently and minimize risk.
What does AR15 ownership have to do with this? Can you not buy a AR15? Are there not 50 million of them in private hands in the US? Can you not buy a Glock or Handgun?
Just a Pro tip, if you want to make a convincing argument on the subject, stop deflecting and talking about unrelated things. Its the equivalent of a internet temper tantrum. Stick to the actual subject, which has its own nuance and complexities.
The irony is most of us here fall on the the same side idelogically and think p80 kits should be sold in every 7-11 and walgreens. However that doesn't mean we can't reconize risk. You can go up to someone and call them %%$%&^&^ and you may get your ass beat. Its not legal for them to beat your ass but the vast majority of people would say you got what you asked for.
First all we know is the ATF raided. I still have not seen what caused it. But if the ATF are interested in you, you did something...
And second, to the speed limit question, as long as you are doing the speed limit, you have no worries. So unless you are in a special area like construction zones, you can even go a little faster than posted and a majority of traffic police do not care. So how fast over the limit do you have to go before the police decide you need to be pulled over? Here in NoVa there are a few spots that are well know as speed traps. But there are spots on I-66 (before construction started two years ago) and other parkways that I watched car do 10-15 over the limit and the police were not interested.
And second, to the speed limit question, as long as you are doing the speed limit, you have no worries. So unless you are in a special area like construction zones, you can even go a little faster than posted and a majority of traffic police do not care. So how fast over the limit do you have to go before the police decide you need to be pulled over? Here in NoVa there are a few spots that are well know as speed traps. But there are spots on I-66 (before construction started two years ago) and other parkways that I watched car do 10-15 over the limit and the police were not interested.
Some people cannot be reasoned with because they lack the ability to reason. This is a clear example.
Or like my wife, get pulled over doing 3 miles under the speed limit (was in car and can confirm), and told she was doing 10 over and given a ticket.
The Law is one thing, People enforcing and interpreting is another. Being "right" sometimes is not enough.
P80 is like doing 79 in a 80 and yelling fuck the police out the window as they drive past a speed trap. Predictable results
your wife deserved the ticket....she was driving too close to the speed limit.....her fault for "pushing the boundaries".....
again, whats the crime here?
i also find it interesting you used the speeding analogy.....even though just a second ago you argued that analogy didnt fit
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Did p80 have a video "how-to" available anywhere? This would fuck them i think. As far as QB, I think they're making a case with that one. Even accepting a form 1 to sell you parts, admits they are selling silencer parts. And thats illegal. A form 1 lets you build your own, but not by buying "silencer parts". I would not want to be on their sales list either.
Oh yeah. I agree. Fuck gov overreach. Pro sports suck. All my shits legit. Is this still available.
Oh yeah. I agree. Fuck gov overreach. Pro sports suck. All my shits legit. Is this still available.
I’d like to start by saying I’m replying for my phone so I apologize for any typos and all that.
everyone has a hill they will die on, I don’t think this was a bad one for p80. I’ve read a few articles and don’t exactly see what they did that was illegal. They say illegal sail of “ghost guns”, taxes related to that, and shipping guns across state lines. But for all of that to be illegal it hinges on the fact that you have to agree on the kit being classed itself as a firearm and I don’t and they haven’t either in many cases. I think it was a risky move on the atf’s side with a lot of ripple effects yet to be seen.
fisrt of all like I said before how is a kit different than buying all the parts yourself online in one order? If you order a 80% lower, slide, barrel, etc on a site like brownells and have it shipped to your house did they just sell you a firearm and both you and the site have now broken the law? Now if it’s the fact it all came from one Company? In which case why is that illegal? There’s no law stating if you make one part you can’t make another. And again would that make sites like brownells, opticsplanet, etc illegal?
i Understand bundling it together as a kit is maybe poor taste but I don’t believe it’s illegal. An 80% lower is not a firearm nor has it been considered one up to this point but now it magically does? What does that do to other 80% lower companies or retailers that sell them?
my problem is the fact that the atf and their constant over reach trying to make examples out of people and companies lying about breaking laws to try to scare people into complying even though they already are
ALL of the guns in my home were purchased outside of my home . . . and transported in.
Well what some people here "Believe is legal" and what the powers at be Think are clearly not one in the same.
Thies has already spelled it out for those incapable of reading between the lines.
They are engaged in a business that the risk of running afowl of the law is SO GREAT, that they submit said products to the ATF for approval. The ATF approved exactly what was sent. Not more, Not less.
By modifying the product (which is also the sum of parts sold as a unit) they opened pandoras box and gave the ATF reason to fuck with them. Point blank the End. Right wrong or gray does not matter. You all can argue till your blue in the face, the fact is they deviated from the script and now are paying the price. Something that ANYONE with a room temp IQ and a little understanding of how this shit works saw coming.
Notice how people in industry are like, Yea, saw that coming. Its the internet bubbas who live in their own world crying about this.
The US attorney's office who worked with the ATF though they had enough evidence of a crime being commited to request a warrant. The judge thought there was enough reasonable suspicion to grant the warrant. WHO KNOWS how long the ATF has been building this case. For all we know they had informats on the inside feeding them information. Raids are usualy the last step, in the investigation process. They will build cases for YEARS before acting. Give people enough rope and they will hang themselves eventually. They can afford to play the long game.
The only people they should be mad at is P80. 80% may be a thing of past in the coming years and now the Gov has a reason to go after them.
This is no different then the guys who started importing Rifle Caliber Pistols back in the 80s/90s. The law is written as such that any ammo that can be used in a pistol cannot be armor piercing. After they started importing 7.62, 5.45, .308 and 7.62x51 pistols it made the cost of ammo skyrocket due to most of the surplus shit on the market was mild steel core or some form considered Armor Piercing. No more importing that. So they traded a few dozens guns in the US for Billions of cheap rounds of ammo. Cases of surplus 5.45 for $80 or .308 for $130....poof gone. They had every moral and legal right to do so. They also fucked us all in the long run as a result.
You don't have to agree with the rules to understand the consequences of action.
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so the ATF bears no responsibility what so ever?......your name isnt Lon Horiuchi by any chance is it?
buying a complete stripped frame is considered buying a firearm....its the same whether you buy just a lower, or a complete gun.....it doesnt need "recertification"....the lower is the firearm.
buying a slide is not considered buying a firearm....
buying a barrel is not considered buying a firearm....
buying a LPK is not considered buying a firearm...
buying a 80% is not considered buying a firearm...
you cannot make a firearm by combining a bunch of non "firearm" parts.....it doesnt matter how much the ATF try to twist the definitions.
P80 did nothing wrong.
if the ATF stated that a 80% is not a firearm....it doesnt matter what else you include in the package, so long as they are also not firearms.
the fact that you are trying to put this on P80 is laughable.
....let us remember who we are talking about here.....
And the Branch Divideans were illegally stockpiling automatic weapons and grenades. And the ATF was able to get a warrant to search and arrest those doing so. So if you are going to commit a crime, don't act butt hurt when the police show up. Isn't that what we keep telling the BLM crowd?
It is completely irreverent to the issue at hand.
The ATF's actions were completely predictable. Whether you agree with the actions or not, only a fool would not expect this kind of outcome.
....and where was the proof of that?....
the ATF got a search warrant based off some guy hearing what he though was automatic gun fire and a shippment of inert grenades....no machine guns were ever found.
I've read what thies said so I guess I'm not on the incapable list. There is no reading between the lines though, the law is the law. Like I said I don't believe p80 broke any laws. Was it in poor taste? yes, I'll give you that, but it isn't illegal in my opinion. The atf never said they couldn't sell everything together. And they ruled that 80% lowers are not fire arms, there for they never illegally sold guns. " Receiver blanks that do not meet the definition of a "firearm" are not subject to regulation under the Gun Control Act (GCA). ATF has long held that items such as receiver blanks, "castings" or "machined bodies" in which the fire-control cavity area is completely solid and un-machined have not reached the "stage of manufacture" which would result in the classification of a firearm according to the GCA. " staright from the atf's website. So for the atf to backtrack and say that an 80% lower is now magically a firearm is a bit of a stretch to me.
They did not "modify the product" but bundling things together, thats not how that works. You dont have to be in the gun industry to have seen this coming, I've seen it coming for a long time, most people have. Just as braces, binary triggers, the honey badger, etc. will soon see its end in a similar fashion to this. You say it doesn't matter if its right or wrong, but it does. Because it has to do with it being legal or illegal and the atf already ruled the sale of 80% lowers was legal.
Now I don't know what all was in the warrent for the raid so they might have been doing illegal things, but I don't believe they did anything illegal were the 80% lowers or bundles were concerned. Because if they did there is a lot of people and sites that are going to be raided for the sale of 80% lowers and other parts that could be used in conjunction with the 80% lower at the same time
I mean seriously, you can buy an 80% lower as well as everything needed to finish it and ammo on brownells right now, and I know people have done it before. Is brownells going to get raided? are people going to be raided for putting all the items in the cart at the same time (essentially bundling it together) and purchasing it? It's a stretch at best man
Its not a question of the atf never said they couldnt.........its an issue of the ATF never specifically said they could.
This is a realm where you NEED to have specific approval in order to cover your ass.
They deviated and that is the issue.
What you believe and how the government and its agent interpret things are clearly not the same. Your opinion has zero bearing on their actions or motives.
They sold a ready made kit advertising it as a circumvent to the law. I dont know how much simpler it can be stated.
I'm not reading through 5 pages, but haven't we already done this in this country?
www.ammoland.com
BATFE Drops 80% Receiver Case in California; Fears Precedent
The BATFE reaches a sweet plea bargain deal rather than have a judge make a ruling on the definition of a firearm legally binding.
www.ammoland.com
Unlicensed fuel? Lol. I’d love to see a gov agency try and hassle people for unlicensed fuel now. We the people are getting fed up with unconstitutional mandates.Its not driving under the speed limit, its having a tank of unlicensed fuel in the back of your truck, piped into your gas tank and then A big sign on the side of the truck saying fuck fuel tax. It doesn't matter if one drop doesn't physically make it from the tank to the engine, it has all the elements of a crime in both intent and ability.
Reasonable Doubt is a thing. Reasonable Person is a thing.
.Reasonable person - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Even if you win in the courts you won't beat the ride or the defense costs. P80 is going to get eviscerated on not only the illegal firearms front, but also failure to pay FET on every frame sold.
They are done, unless they have a few tens of millions of cash laying around.
Feds didn't need to sieze anything other than records. They are accountants with badges. They wanted the Financial Records so they can figure out just how much they are owed, along with records of where these kits went so they can go after them.
They sold a product that was already a thin line, so much that they had to get ATF approval before they sold it on the market. Had they stayed within that lane, Or submitted the whole kit for review and got the OK, they wouldn't be in this mess. Play with fire and get burned. They should have known better.
So are you gonna turn in your “unlicensed” black rifle when atf claims it’s illegal? Or mayor makes a mandate?
I have no trust left for any gov entity that is not placing a rifle in my hand.
Again, you are missing the point.
The manufacture is selling these with intent to circumvent the laws and did not get approval on something we can admit was already a grey area.
A consumer piecing together a gun from parts is much different than the intent of the manufacture. Individual parts lack intent.
Same reason you can buy solvent tubes and parts but try to sell a all in one kit and they will hammer your ass. One has plausable deniability and one has clear intent. Manufacture can say sure some people will modify xyz, but we sell these as solvent tubes. The second they advertise as suppresor parts or kits they are breaking the law , as currently interpreted.
Its painfull having to explain such simple things.
They didn't NEED specific approval because they already had the approval. Bundling things together doesn't make it a new product. I understand my opinion is my opinion but the ATF has been wrong before utilizing the same tactics they're using here. I don't think the raid and anything to do with the legality of 80% lowers or their bundle (because it's legal) and had everything to do with sending a message to the community.
You do realize many states have entire law enforcement agencies who do nothing but pull people over and check for unlicenced diesel fuel aka farm fuel. Its a multi tens billion dollar enterprise. Hell micheal franzesse became one of the richest mob guys in NY running a scam selling untaxed fuel in th new york area for decades. Made billions for the italian and russian mafia.
Never heard of dipping a tank?
You keep bringing up education. If you want to throw down paper go first. No law degree just a Masters and BS.
Ignorance is bliss.
If I was a dick I could point out that you just tried to flaunt your intelligence by stating it's painful to explain things and also spelled painful wrong in that same statement, but I'm not a dick so I wont.
Is it different though? because tbh they both show the same intent, and both are legal.
Also it's illegal to put all those solvents and parts together, where as it's not illegal to put an 80% lower and parts together. That's the part I'm not understanding. I know it's panful but if you could just use your high intellect to explain simple things a little more that'd be great. I really just want to know what they did exactly that broke any laws because I'm honestly not understanding it. And I don't mean like the metaphoric intent to possibly maybe circumvent the law, what laws were actually broken. It sounds a lot like red flag laws and the possibility to maybe break law in the future so were going to take your guns even though you did nothing wrong type deal
All that education and you dont understand the basics of the american legal system?
That is true, but using red diesel on the road is illegal, an 80% lower is not
Wrong.
They had approval for a specific product. The p80 frame with jig kit.
By changing the product , bundling it with everything needed to make a whole gun and advertising as such WITHOUT getting approval, they opened the door to get fucked.
There are 2 peolple from industry telling you this was predicatsble and 3 or 4 nobodies who dont even understand the elements of a crime playing barracks attorneys.
lon horiuchi won't be able to tell you because lon horiuchi doesn't know what he's actually talking about......all he knows is "they were pushing the edge" and regurgitating talking points Theis made.
Why do you keep saying it was predictable like I didn't think it was? Bro if you didn't see this coming you'd have to be blind, i've seen it coming for a long time, just like bump stocks, just like the honey badger, just like braces, just like binary triggers eventually. The fact that it's been a long time coming has nothing to do with the issue. And I get it you're in the industry, congrats were all proud of you.
My thing is how is the bundle illegal? every part in the bundle was legal, just as putting the pieces together is legal. Is the illegal part the act of purchasing every part at once? Because I've definitely known people that have done that. Or is the problem the advertisement? Because advertising isn't exactly illegal either. If one was to use an 80% lower to make a firearm they would have to serialize it and all that (I'm assuming as i've not really ever dealt with them) , if not (I'm assuming again) that would be illegal, but that would fall more on the consumer than the seller I'd think ? correct me if I'm wrong.
Also I know you stated earlier they wouldn't have raided without a mountain of evidence, but first of all that's not true they've raided on less, and secondly don't you think they would have arrested people for illegal arms dealing or any of the apparent laundry list of charges on the warrent? As of now no one has been arrested. Honest question not a jab
^^^^ THIS!!!!
And the ATF went to compound to serve an arrest warrant on Koresh. A warrant they could have served at any time during his frequent trips to town where he was basically alone. The ATF showed up in force to make an EXAMPLE and ended up with the blood of innocents on their hands.
ANYONE that supports their actions is a STATIST and no friend of the 2A.
Just becuase the ATF tech branch approves something doesn make it legal. They have flip flopped positions on a number of products over the years to include bumpstocks. Courts ultimatley determine legality.
The question of legality is a complex one. Legal to who? Which agency, which judge, which court, which jurisdiction.
Courts routinley disagree which is why we have appeals and the supreme court.
Its possible all of these 80% kits will be ruled as firearms and maybe we have 79% or 59 or 12% in the future when another arbitray line is drawn.Whats legal today is not always legal tommrow and visa versa. What is legal is not always moral and ethical.
What we do know is the ATF had previously tried to shut down P80. They were on the radar. The way the ATF opperates is predictable. They submit specific products for review. What consitutes a deviation from that productnis anyones guess, but its probally safe to assume there is not much flexibility or that slope gets real slipperly real quick.
Assuming these kits were illegal all along then its not hard for them find a reason or reasons to go after them. Assuming a reasonable arguement can be made to a judge or jury that these kits constitute in spirit, circumventing the law. Thats where we are.
MJ is still illegal on a federal level yet the gov chooses not to go after states. That doesnt mean that if some MJ company gets arrogant and tries to push that status quo such as moving product across state lines, the gov wont swoop in and drop the hammer. Discression is a thing. The gov doesnt go after every crime and if 2020 has taught us anything, we have a legal system not a justice system.
When you engage in a high risk business activity, it might be prudent to not poke the bear. The legality is a question I dont think anyone can awnser right now but i think we can all agree the law and intepretation are both grey.
There was an established process for vetting these high risk products and they chose to ignore that roll the dice by not submitting the kit; one thing that had the highest probability of protecting themselves.
We can agree with P80s patriotism and ideology while at the same time reconzing a tactical blunder that risks the entire war based on a high risk low reward action.
I feel like if the kits were illegal P80 would have known and if not then I feel like the ATF should have notified them, or anyone, that they were illegal. Instead of posting on their website (its still on there) that they're legal. I could be wrong but when I read the word legal, I assume that means that thing is legal. And on the atf's website it says 80% lowers are legal. So I feel like the atf saying something is legal is a pretty decent legal case to prove you didn't do anything illegal since the atf said the thing you did was legal
If it is not "illegal".....it is.... By default, "legal"
We don't not act based on "permissions" in this country
The atf did not rule on what was "legal".....they ruled on the "status".
..of which they decided that an 80% WAS NOT a firearm.
Since there are no laws pertaining to the distribution of "non firearms".....by default, what P80 did was legal.
Now if the ATF has since decided that 80% are now in fact firearms, then that changes.....but I have not heard any information that is the case
Okay I don't mean to be rude but the fact that you have a George Orwell quote in your footer while defending a government entities over reach is a little ironic. Is it so hard to at least entertain the idea that the ATF didn't really have any legal grounds for what they did and they did all this as a shock and awe message to the community
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