Gunsmithing Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics

[Tactical22]

Everyone seems to have their pet gun finish. On a lot of guns, my preference is krylon

However, I do have a definite appreciation for the corrosion resistance and durability of more permanent spray on finishes.

Could we have a reasonable discussion (no "I like this because it is better" B.S.) on the pros and cons of the mainstream firearm finishes, such as Ceracoat, Duracoat, Armorcoat, etc...

Also, can you spray one type of finish over another? For instance, Ceracoat on a Springfield 1911 that already has Armorcoat? Is Springfield's Armorcoat just their name for another popular finish, such as Duracoat? If I wanted to get parts finished to match a Springfield, would I have to send them to Springfield for Armorcoat finishing?

 

[USGUNWORKS]

Re: Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics

Good questions. Some finishes are compatible over others. Some are not. Duracoat does not bond the best over any heat cure finish. Cerakote air dry is a good base for any finish though and will bond to heat cured finishes. I'm not positive what armorcoat is based on. It has some characteristics of a urethane like duracoat though. Whenever in doubt, always remove old finish before applying a new one. Will be much less heartbreak in the end. Cerakote air cure will stick to darn near anything. But it doesnt have the best friction characteristics. On a 1911, that's a concern. It also has a slightly thicker film build than the heat cures.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics

Cerakote is sold to the manufacturers and sometimes renamed. Most likely the Armorcoat really is Cerakote. How well did it last. If it wasn't long then it wasn't Cerakote.

30 cal, Where are you getting your info on Cerakote? Cerakote will not stick to Cerakote and even the air cured applied over any other coating will only be as good as what's under it. Frictionwise Cerakote is slippery as heck on 1911 rails. It's made out of ground up ceramic and has other components added to make it slippery. When one of the most expensive custom 1911 builders in the country came in for training they were totally sceptical about running it on the super tight match toleranced 1911's they brought. Not only were they able to put it on the rails inside and out they were able to run them dry. I have coated a bunch of revolvers inside and out and they seem slick even without oil.

I recently about wrecked my barrel vise by Cerakoting it. It will not grab anything at twice the torque I used to use. We wrecked my 2" thick top block from overtightening it. We are blasting the bottom jaw clean and building a steel block for the top half today. Even with four half inch grade 8 bolts tightened to 125 foot pounds the coating was unhurt from the barrel slipping in it. It just shined it up and left a big dent/impression in my vise. Put us behind a bit to rebuild the barrel vise. Hope it will be done soon.

As far as color matching what you already have. You should be able to find a color that is real close or an experienced applicator can adjust the ratio to match the sheen. To apply it properly it needs reblasted.

 

[USGUNWORKS]

Re: Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics

Hired gun. My info is from experience. I've sprayed Gallons of just about all types of paint especially Cerakote... I agree with you about the friction characteristics of HEAT cure. It's my favorite paint for just about anything. But the AIR dry tends to turn powdery and gum up in close tolerance/friction surface applications. And you are correct. Nothing will stick satisfactorily to a shitty base. But I'm talking about raw material or a well applied substrate (for.air cure Cerakote) .

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics

I admit my personal knowledge of air dry "C" series is very limited. In fact I avoid it every chance I get. I was trained that heat cure was superior in all but high heat applications like machine gun barrels and gas tubes and since I have yet to coat a machine gun I don't use it much. My only call for it would be on optics and those usually don't get banged around or ground on much.

BTW, my barrel vise is back in action. What a difference. One side is raw aluminum and the top jaw is now steel. Even with minimal contact we were taking new and old Remingtons apart like nothing. Moral of the story is no heat cure Cerakote on anything you need to not be slick as $h!+.

Shawn

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics

My understanding is that Springfields Armorcoat is rebranded KG Gun Coat.

I would not consider applying Cerakote over spray paint, as the other guys mentioned you loose the adhesions properties and will not get the superior results you should with Cerakote. Also, if having parts re-coated, I would suggest doing it right and removing the finish thats on there and properly prepping the substrate.

H-Series has an 80% reduced coeffiecient of friction vs. stainless against stainless. No other adeatives beyond the ceramic are used to reduce friction. C-Series has teflon and other adatives needed to enable it to withstand high heat applications (1700 degrees vs. 600 degrees). So, while it has a lower coefficient of friction it suffers in hardness and wear resistance. So, as mentioned, NIC recommends the use of H-Series for all applications except high temp and items which cannot withstand the baking requirements of H-series

The main benefits of Cerakote over KG and Duracoat are in wear resistance and cororsion protection. In independent testing using ASTM D4060 Tabor Abrasion Testing Cerakote withstood 5,212 wear cycles per mil, vs 597 for KG and 418 for Duracoat. In some additional tests cerakote has withstood over 8,000 abrasion cycles.

On rust resistance using ASTM B117 test protocols (5% salt spray) Cerakote withstood over 3,000 hours (test pannels are still undegoing longer term testing) anf KG experineced onset of corosion at 100 hours and Duracoat at 45 hours. This is with pannels coated at 0.5 mil

Cerakote also has better chemical resistance than the other two.

Krylon doesnt even count as its not a firearms coating.

I hope this was fact filled enough for you...

If you want the full technical report PM me and I will email it to you.

Regards

 

[Hellbender]

Re: Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics

Cerakote is the only one that's not just fancy paint.

You can take a razor blade and slice off any of the other coatings, but not Cerakote.

You can soak C-kote in acetone forever and it won't even get soft.

But it has to be applied RIGHT, and RIGHT takes more work than the others.

 

[cfish36]

Re: Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics

So can "h" series oven cure cerakote be reapplied over already oven cured cerakote? ie, touch-up.

I am cerakoting for the first time and after it was done in the oven I saw a nice streak of stainless steel where it didn't get painted. I am hoping I do not have to re-blast it and start over.

Any suggestions would be great.
Thanks

I am not trying to hijack but there seems to be allot of you that know what you are talking about and the topic seemed relevant.

 

[Tactical22]

Re: Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics

Very interesting guys, thanks. Found this on 1911 forum:http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=253904 Is it accurate?

BLR: (on Springfield's Armory Kote)

"It is definitely one of the more robust epoxy based finishes.

IIRC, it is a bis-f (bisphenol formaldehyde) based epoxy with carbon black (hence the black color), PTFE microspheres (really just a teflon dust), and is amine catalyzed.

This coating has one of the higher epoxy solids of the "bake on" finishes. Consequently, is a bit more robust than the others.


Of the same ilk as Black-T, Bearcoate, GenIII, Armortuff, Gunkote, etc. Some of the newer ones have a ceramic component to up the wear resistance, but they are still epoxy coatings.

To get something significantly different, you would have to move to a BMA (bismaleimide) and CA (cyanate esters) to up the strength and adhesion. These are more expensive, but more durable systems with similar processing."

In the last paragraph, is he referring to Ceracoat?

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Gun finishes: compatability and characteristics



Does factory work for H&K.

Mark is a great guy, give him a call.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/finish/pagefinish.shtml