H or IMR, WHO CARES!!!!

[Sako man]

Ok seriously. Im curious as Varget seems hard to obtain in bulk I have switched over to IMR4064. Some say that the extreme line of powders from Hodgdon are less temp sensitive compared to the equivalent IMR powders. Who notices? Does anyone notice? Would anyone in a moderate climate like Cali notice?

Marketing or real improvement?

 

[varmint slayer]

The difference can be noticed around my parts. 90-100 degrees in the summer and currently -15°. I used to run IMR4895 in a 22-250 and quit after a long cold winter. Lost quite a bit of velocity in the cold (almost 70-80 fps).

 

[Sako man]

The difference can be noticed around my parts. 90-100 degrees in the summer and currently -15°. I used to run IMR4895 in a 22-250 and quit after a long cold winter. Lost quite a bit of velocity in the cold (almost 70-80 fps).

Your probably not just loosing MV but overall from denser air.

So does that mean there is really an advantage to the Varget?

 

[varmint slayer]

Your probably not just loosing MV but overall from denser air.

So does that mean there is really an advantage to the Varget?

Oh for sure. Air is pretty damn dense at 0° compared to 100°. There is an advantage for my area but if you don't see big (like more than 50°) temp swings you may be able to get by without it.

 

[flashhole]

I live in Upstate NY and we see pretty significant swings in seasonal temperatures. My personal experience has been 223 and 25-06 near-max loads developed with non-temperature stabilized powders in the cold months were significantly over pressure in the hot months. Had to pull a bunch of them and was not happy about that. Switched to Hodgdon Extreme powders and have not had the problem since. In your milder climate you may not have that problem but the physics are impacted by temperature and that should be accounted for. The powders I dropped from my inventory because of the temp sensitivity were Win 748, IMR 7828 and IMR 3031.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I care. I had a great 155 load in my 308 Win. with 43.0 if IMR 3031. The load shot safely @60º, no pressure signs. I shot the load @ 95º and stretched the primer pockets beyond further use. After I burn up all of my IMR powders, I'm done with them. No mas.

 

[Fester47]

I care too, I live in Indiana and not in perfect weather California. If you don't like H powder leave them for the one's that believe in it. IMR is a great powder. I started loading 223 rem with IMR 4895 when I was 12 years old. I made a lot of small hole groups with it and when winter came along I had to change my load data. I learned at a young age when the extreme powders do for my shot placement. In Indiana I cant hunt the big targets with rifles. I shot the small critters, so shot placement was critical.

 

[Deadshot2]

I care too, I live in Indiana and not in perfect weather California. If you don't like H powder leave them for the one's that believe in it. IMR is a great powder. I started loading 223 rem with IMR 4895 when I was 12 years old. I made a lot of small hole groups with it and when winter came along I had to change my load data. I learned at a young age when the extreme powders do for my shot placement. In Indiana I cant hunt the big targets with rifles. I shot the small critters, so shot placement was critical.

Most like me just develop a Cold load and a Hot load. Then pick one according to the amount of clothing you have to wear when you leave the house

 

[steve123]

I guess if you are shooting in a sport like Benchrest or F-class where there are sighters involved it's not that big of a deal. Except for the fact of weaving in and out of the nodes if velocity loss or gain is not accounted for by adding to or taking away from the normal charge to compensate for temperatures and FPS increase or decrease.

We shooters are now stuck in a catch22 situation where the powder CO's don't feel enough pressure yet to change their rifle powders to the new temperature resistant technology's! The only way to put that pressure on them is to quit buying this old tech powder so they get the message. Of course that isn't going to happen because we are addicted projectile senders.

I used to shoot temp sensitive powders and VLD ogives which can be a real PITA if a guy is shooting a 6mm. As temp changes and the throat wears a guy has really gotta stay on top of what's happening with his load if he wants to make first round hits way out there.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I have used IMR-4064 and Varget for a fair number of chamberings (.22-250, .260, .280, .308, .30-'06), and IMR-4064 does exhibit temperature sensitivity.

But I also avoid hot loads, and make an issue of learning the performance variances of my rifle/load under a wider range conditions.

Here in Central NY, our temps can exceed 100 (rarely) and drop below zero (again, rarely). Powder choice and best diligence centering loads within the charge weight span of the nodes helps avoid weaving in and out of nodes with temp swings. Doing the load development under most likely conditions also helps. Note that most match shots are taken with a hot barrel, and include that variable in your load testing. I also use my sighters as barrel warm up shots, mainly by confirming my derived zero with several shots afterward. Always be generous when loading out your match ammunition allocation. I also make my ammo less than a week prior to a match, and break any saved rounds back down, to reduce any effects due to bullet/neck bonds. A collet bullet puller die and the appropriate diameter collets make a good investment for the shooter who handloads most of their ammunition.

I am personally temperature intolerant myself, and will only shoot for a very good reason when the temp gets above 80. Temps below freezing affect my own role in precision shooting rather more than the powder's performance deviations.

Just another old coot lending another viewpoint.

Greg

 

[Sako man]

I have used IMR-4064 and Varget for a fair number of chamberings (.22-250, .260, .280, .308, .30-'06), and IMR-4064 does exhibit temperature sensitivity.

But I also avoid hot loads, and make an issue of learning the performance variances of my rifle/load under a wider range conditions.

Here in Central NY, our temps can exceed 100 (rarely) and drop below zero (again, rarely). Powder choice and best diligence centering loads within the charge weight span of the nodes helps avoid weaving in and out of nodes with temp swings. Doing the load development under most likely conditions also helps. Note that most match shots are taken with a hot barrel, and include that variable in your load testing. I also use my sighters as barrel warm up shots, mainly by confirming my derived zero with several shots afterward. Always be generous when loading out your match ammunition allocation. I also make my ammo less than a week prior to a match, and break any saved rounds back down, to reduce any effects due to bullet/neck bonds. A collet bullet puller die and the appropriate diameter collets make a good investment for the shooter who handloads most of their ammunition.

I am personally temperature intolerant myself, and will only shoot for a very good reason when the temp gets above 80. Temps below freezing affect my own role in precision shooting rather more than the powder's performance deviations.

Just another old coot lending another viewpoint.

Greg

I can see your points. I guess I'm being lazy and not looking forward to the extra steps of really paying attention to temp as I am recording my chrono readings. But if the temp MV variation is consistent from round to round and string to string then at least it's a variable that can be calculated. Now if large temp swings made each round behave strange from shot to shot then that would be a real pain.

 

[Thumper580]

My god.... People actually shoot in cold weather??? Don't you all know water freezes below 60F. . Gave up on cold weather shooting, not because of the powder (IMR) but because I just don't get any fun out of it. Didn't really see much negative effect of the temp on 4895 and 4064.

 

[DRAGON64]

I have used IMR-4064 and Varget for a fair number of chamberings (.22-250, .260, .280, .308, .30-'06), and IMR-4064 does exhibit temperature sensitivity.

But I also avoid hot loads, and make an issue of learning the performance variances of my rifle/load under a wider range conditions.

Here in Central NY, our temps can exceed 100 (rarely) and drop below zero (again, rarely). Powder choice and best diligence centering loads within the charge weight span of the nodes helps avoid weaving in and out of nodes with temp swings. Doing the load development under most likely conditions also helps. Note that most match shots are taken with a hot barrel, and include that variable in your load testing. I also use my sighters as barrel warm up shots, mainly by confirming my derived zero with several shots afterward. Always be generous when loading out your match ammunition allocation. I also make my ammo less than a week prior to a match, and break any saved rounds back down, to reduce any effects due to bullet/neck bonds. A collet bullet puller die and the appropriate diameter collets make a good investment for the shooter who handloads most of their ammunition.

I am personally temperature intolerant myself, and will only shoot for a very good reason when the temp gets above 80. Temps below freezing affect my own role in precision shooting rather more than the powder's performance deviations.

Just another old coot lending another viewpoint.

Greg

I also have the collet/bullet puller... I use it to break down the loads that do not work well for me (why keep shooting them right?). The RCBS puller has been a workhorse, and leaves little to no traceable marks on the round.

I find it rather odd, that I really get worked up over shooting once the fall and winter months set in, but lose interest once the humid summer arrives.

I digress, I wish I had more to offer in this thread, but I am fairly new to reloading, so I will go back to lurking now...

 

[bkw1911]

Definitely notice here in Arizona. It gets dangerous with non extreme powders in the summer and the loads with some of the non extreme powders shoot .5" in the cooler months and 2" or more when it warms up. H4350, varget, h1000, retumbo, benchmark, they all shoot pretty consistent all year long without worry of over pressure in the summer

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[Deadshot2]

I can see your points. I guess I'm being lazy and not looking forward to the extra steps of really paying attention to temp as I am recording my chrono readings. But if the temp MV variation is consistent from round to round and string to string then at least it's a variable that can be calculated. Now if large temp swings made each round behave strange from shot to shot then that would be a real pain.

A large variable that many overlook is the amount of "breech time" one gives a round. If you've been shooting most of the day in ambient temps of 50-60 degrees, and your chamber temp is 100 degrees or more, leaving rounds chambered for varying amounts of time while waiting for mirage or wind can add a large variable.

I know some who will extract a round, at least most of the way without ejecting, and then rechamber when the conditions are more favorable. That's assuming time permits.

 

[Deadshot2]

My god.... People actually shoot in cold weather??? Don't you all know water freezes below 60F. . Gave up on cold weather shooting, not because of the powder (IMR) but because I just don't get any fun out of it. Didn't really see much negative effect of the temp on 4895 and 4064.

The little "Weather Channel Icon" on the bottom of my computer screen shows 21 Degrees. I'll be leaving for the range in about an hour and expect to have a great morning of shooting. Insulated "cammies", Sorel's, good gloves and chem hand warmers, and best of all----------Nobody Else. I can shoot at my own pace with NO interruptions other than the cease fire's I call myself. Another benefit, barrel temp stays nice and cool.

 

[Danco411]

I'm done with Hodgdon and IMR. Sure supply and demand but if you can't find it forget it. I'm all Alliant now. For some reason I can find it locally with ease. Have become a Power Pro2000 MR junkie. This stuff does everything for me and more than Varget or any other Hodgdon powder has done. 100+ FPS faster than Varget with no pressure signs. Clean burning - cases don't even look like they were fired. Superbly easy to meeter - no over throws on my 1500. I run it for .308, .223, 22-250 and now working with it for .260. It's $3-$4 cheaper than Varget too.

As for temp I have seen no major differences between PP and Varget. I shoot from between zero degrees and 90 degress in Michigan. I would venture to say less than 1 FPS per degree as a variable. Below are my main loads. How does your Varget load stack up?

.308 - Lapua case - BR2 primer - 178 Hornady Amax - 47.5g 2000MR - 26" barrel - 2830 FPS - 12 ES
22-250 - Lapua case - BR2 primer - 80g Hornady Amax - 35g 2000MR - 26" barrel - 3230 FPS - 18 ES
.223/5.56 - LC case - Wolf Magnum primer - 77g SMK - 26g 2000MR - 18" barrel - 2880 FPS - 22 ES

 

[Rookie]

I cant speak to Pro2000 but I've loaded a lot of another Alliant powder, RE25. While it is very accurate it is also crazy temp sensitive. I'm looking for replacement loads in Hodgdon powders whenever I can find them. No more Alliant rifle powder for me. However Alliant Unique has become my go-to pistol powder.

 

[steve123]

I cant speak to Pro2000 but I've loaded a lot of another Alliant powder, RE25. While it is very accurate it is also crazy temp sensitive. I'm looking for replacement loads in Hodgdon powders whenever I can find them. No more Alliant rifle powder for me. However Alliant Unique has become my go-to pistol powder.

Ha, wait till you try Hodgdon's Universal Clays or pretty much any of their pistol/shotgun powders at the correct burn rate and you'll be saying the same thing that you did about the Unique which BTW is one of the dirtiest pistol powders out there.

Hodgdon should be paying me pushing their products all the time!

 

[downlow]

I too, shoot from 95 degrees in the summer, to 0-10 now...in the winter.

I've found H powders the most consistent. R has been the worst! You'd think your scope blew up.

 

[Sonic Crack]

If your loading with IMR, Next time your at the range put some rounds in the sun and some in the shade. Then shoot them over your chrony

 

[leid]

The burn rate of a propellant changes with temperature. And the propellant does not care if temperature change is due to outside air temperature (OAT), an overheated barrel, or exposing cartridges to the summer sun. Whether the burn rate varies a little, a lot, or somewhere in between depends on the propellant used. Given a choice, I would prefer to have as little change in propellant burn rate as possible due to varying temperature. But that is not always possible unless I am willing to leave quite a bit of MV on the table by not using a double based propellant. Case in point is .223/5.56MM as this caliber does not have a surplus of energy to begin with. So I choose to leave as little MV as possible on the table unless accuracy suffers unduly. The nitroglycerin (NG) is the wild card in getting the most MV out of double based propellants. The bad news is that double based propellants do not stabilize extremely well due to the NG they contain. Something I did notice is that the NG adds less MV as temperature decreases so hunting loads used in colder conditions get very limited added MV from the NG in a double based powder. But if I elect to go for the added MV potential of a double based propellant, it is easier to deal with the variation in MV of a particular load due to temperature change if the variation is actually measured albeit somewhat imprecisely. I have a freezer & a heating pad within feet of my chrono. Running a quick thermal check at -10F & +135F has become part of the normal vetting process for developing loads along with measuring MV/ES/SD & group size. The thermal stability of Varget or H4895 in .223/5.56MM, & H4350 in 30-06 is indeed a real improvement which can be measured. .02





5.56MM fired in 18" 1x7.7 SS Krieger/CLE

30-06 fired in 24" SS 1x10 SS Krieger



77gr. SMK over 5.56MM NATO pressure VARGET: (Virtually immune to thermal variation of 145 degree F. But MV is a bit slow as compared to H4895 much less
the TAC & AA2520 double based spherical powder loads)
+135: MV 2685
/-10F: MV 2684
__________________
1 FPS over 145 degrees F



77gr. SMK over 5.56MM NATO pressure H4895: (Pretty decent MV for a single based stick rifle powder especially when used in colder temperatures)

+135F: MV 2741
//-10F: MV 2737
_________________
4 FPS over 145 degrees F



77gr. SMK over max listed 5.56MM NATO pressure RAMSHOT TAC:
+135F: MV 2841 FPS
//-10F: MV 2723 FPS
_________________
118 FPS over 145 degrees F



77gr. SMK over MAX listed 5.56MM NATO pressure AA2520: (Highest MV with the 77gr. SMK over any propellant tested. AA2520 was also the most temperature sensitive. I will not reshoot this loading at +135F)
+135F: MV 2950 FPS (Primers leaked on the last (2) rounds lowering the average. First (3) rounds were very consistent at 2987/2977/2983 averaging 2982 FPS.
//-10F: MV 2767 FPS
_________________
183 FPS over 145 degrees F (If you use the average from the first (3) rounds at +135F, 2982-2767= 225 FPS over 145 degrees F)



180gr. TTSX over MAX listed 30-06 charge of H4350
+135F: 2834 FPS
//-10F: 2822 FPS
________________
12 FPS over 145 degrees F

 

[Deadshot2]

Something I did notice is that the NG adds less MV as temperature decreases so hunting loads used in colder conditions get very limited added MV from the NG in a double based powder.

Sometimes all the benefit provided by the NG is to assure uniform ignition of the hard to light ball NC powder in the mix when it's cold.

 

[Deadshot2]

How does your Varget load stack up?

.308 - Lapua case - BR2 primer - 178 Hornady Amax - 47.5g 2000MR - 26" barrel - 2830 FPS - 12 ES

Can't speak to Varget right now but my IMR-4064 load of 42.3 gr sends my 175 SMK down range at 2704 fps (24" bbl) using Lapua brass, Tula Primer and only 8.3 for an extreme spread. That was yesterday and the temp was only around 17 when I started shooting. Of course 25 rounds later the action and barrel were a lot warmer

 

[flashhole]

Varget is one of the Extreme Powders in the Hodgdon line up. It is not as sensitive to variations in temperature.

 

[scudzuki]

Here in SE PA, temp swing is about 80 degrees max, at least that's all the shooter will tolerate.
Knowing what I know now, I would have developed all my loads with Hodgdon Extreme powders if there was an appropiate powder for my cartridge.
Of course, had I done that but failed to stockpile powders last year, I'd be SOL now.

I got my .260 this year and found a few pounds of H4350 locally, which of course shot great.
I got concerned that there those few pounds were about all I could find, though, so I researched an alternative.
Fortunately Hodgdon posted temp stability test results for H4350 and a few alternatives, and AA4350 showed 29 fps swing (to H4350's 4 fps) in 120 degrees. AA4350 is available and shoots as well as H4350 did in my rifle, so I bought a bunch from the same lot.

My point is, now that I'm aware of the importance of temperature stability, my first choice is a powder that is stable.
I do not settle on a load that has not been tested in hot weather, either.
Not having to worry about it (as in using Hodgdon Extreme powders) would be a bonus.

Joe