Have we come full circle on AR optics?

[WindstormSCR]

I'm in the boat with many others here of "choose what works best for what you are trying to do"
I use LPVOs in two main applications: My hunting rifle and my .308 MDRX. the first because it's lighter than many of the other scope options with larger objective lenses, and since I mostly hunt in MD hill country, the shots are never long enough to warrant serious magnification. The second because it's my "do all" rifle from zero feet to 950yd, and a vortex gen 3 1-10x with the option of a Trybe 2x enhancer makes it as good as any large-format scope for those distances, with the additional bonus of being able to shoot both eyes open at 1x without my glasses. (astigmatism)

One thing I don't think has been brought up yet is the case of astigmatism. A red dot without my glasses is a useless blur. with my glasses it's usable and nice and decent. Prisms and LPVOs are both excellent in giving me the option for an etched reticle if for whatever reason my glasses aren't around, however the prism sights generally don't have diopter adjustments, and with the fixed magnification, higher power prisms (generally 4x and up) are no good in close. 1x to 3x work well, and I've found myself increasingly liking the swampfox blade for situations where I might be caught with my proverbial (or literal) pants down without my glasses and need to break out my Evo 3.

So really it all comes down to personal skill, personal needs, and personal choices for the task at hand.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Except an LVPO isn't a red dot and doesn't act like a red dot at 1x.

What LPVO's have you looked through?

 

[tylerw02]

You can keep both eyes open with a LVPO also especially on 1x and it's like a red dot.

I've put myself on the timer with an LPVO next to an Aimpoint T2. Up drills are indistinguishable between the two. I prefer an LPVO, especially after taking a class with KD4 with one.

 

[CarlosDJackal]

Until I find an LPVO that is light enough, goes up to at least 6x (8x preferred) and is a true 1x on the low end; I'm stickcing to my micros. Those fit my needs based on my METT-T. YMMV.

 

[Evolution 9]

I’m hardcore in the pro-LPVO camp, but…

For true CQB work they are inferior to red dot sights.

Up drills and shot timers are great on a square range, but they don’t account for the realities of fighting in someone’s house. I brought a LPVO on exactly one Warrant Service raid.

When you are moving, and the suspect is moving, and the lighting is poor, and the floor has holes rotted through it you have to avoid, and you’re trying to get past his child without being rough or aggressive, and the dog is in everyone’s way, and the suspect is shoving something small and black towards you (phone or gun?)… shot timers and up drills are just so horribly far from reality it can’t be described.

The mind can only process so much information. Maybe you all are SEALS but I’m not, and in that environment, a simple red dot is just much easier. It’s not something you can measure.


Now again, I’m a huge LPVO fan. They work really really well for almost everything I do, and I can use them up close if needed, but I don’t pretend they are red dot fast in reality.

 

[Tact999]

Probably need more training then……it is not necessary to have a perfect picture in the scope like making sure there is no scope shadow. Countless tests prove this…..or you could confirm it yourself. There is virtually no effect on accuracy at that distance. At the end of the day, everyone should use whatever they prefer

 

[theLBC]

if i had a choice of one or the other, i would pick the one that allows me to do more, rather than one that saves fractions of a second.
i suppose i am not as operator af as i was when i was younger.

 

[wyatthudson]

You have to think that most of this stuff starts from what's a trend in SOF; people assume they must be onto something and replicate it often without really understanding why. The LPVO's really seemed to come from a recce build standpoint, plus guys running mixed engagements, overwatch while pushing partner forces etc. The funny thing is I remember in the mid 2000's people would get ripped on running any kind of mixed/high power scope on their issued M4, and people thought that was the dumbest thing ever as if a 16 inch barrel with 5.56 can't reach out to distances that justify that optic. In particular, in that Restrepo docu, there's at least one guy with a Leupold or something on his standard M4.

I think a lot of it boils down to using your optic as a tool independent of your combat engagements. It doesn't solve a shooting problem as much as it adds an observation capability.

 

[GlockandRoll]

I've tried a lot of different optics setups on AR's and I always go back to the 3.5x dual-illum ACOG.
The BAC is faster than anything, and I've got a crystal clear BDC reticle that gets me out to 500-600 with ease.

If I need more magnification, I just grab the Mk12 with the 10x Leupy Mk4 MR/T and i can't really believe how much time I wasted chasing the flavor of the month as stated in a previous post.

 

[theLBC]

You have to think that most of this stuff starts from what's a trend in SOF; people assume they must be onto something and replicate it often without really understanding why. The LPVO's really seemed to come from a recce build standpoint, plus guys running mixed engagements, overwatch while pushing partner forces etc. The funny thing is I remember in the mid 2000's people would get ripped on running any kind of mixed/high power scope on their issued M4, and people thought that was the dumbest thing ever as if a 16 inch barrel with 5.56 can't reach out to distances that justify that optic. In particular, in that Restrepo docu, there's at least one guy with a Leupold or something on his standard M4.

I think a lot of it boils down to using your optic as a tool independent of your combat engagements. It doesn't solve a shooting problem as much as it adds an observation capability.

and maybe newer ARs are more accurate and are optic worthy.
if your AR shoots better than 2moa, and you want to engage small target at longer distances, then it makes complete sense.

 

[Rob01]

I’m hardcore in the pro-LPVO camp, but…

For true CQB work they are inferior to red dot sights.

Up drills and shot timers are great on a square range, but they don’t account for the realities of fighting in someone’s house. I brought a LPVO on exactly one Warrant Service raid.

When you are moving, and the suspect is moving, and the lighting is poor, and the floor has holes rotted through it you have to avoid, and you’re trying to get past his child without being rough or aggressive, and the dog is in everyone’s way, and the suspect is shoving something small and black towards you (phone or gun?)… shot timers and up drills are just so horribly far from reality it can’t be described.

The mind can only process so much information. Maybe you all are SEALS but I’m not, and in that environment, a simple red dot is just much easier. It’s not something you can measure.


Now again, I’m a huge LPVO fan. They work really really well for almost everything I do, and I can use them up close if needed, but I don’t pretend they are red dot fast in reality.

And that scenario is probably the worry of .1% of people posting on this site and thread. Lol That is not their “reality”. Shot timers and square ranges are. People need to pick the optic that does the vast majority of things they need and not the very small percentage of what someone else might need in a SWAT scenario that they won’t be in.

And so you know my HD 300BO pistol has a red dot on it

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I didn’t claim it does (though some are very close).

I’m not saying a LPVO does everything perfectly. I’m saying a red dot/magnifier DOESN’T do everything. Thus, for some of us, the desire for a LPVO to do those parts that the dot and magnifier don’t.

I'm not sure what or where you're trying to get with me but you should go back and re-read my original post.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Have you ever used a Razor 1-6? It does.

What LPVO's have you looked through?

Which LPVO is parallax free at 1x?

As stated above. If you want to argue with me, go re read my original post and tell me what part you object to.

 

[tylerw02]

Which RDO is parallax free?

 

[Rob01]

So have you?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Which LPVO is parallax free at 1x?

As stated above. If you want to argue with me, go re read my original post and tell me what part you object to.

Can't answer a question with a question. I don't remember what you posted previously, I only quoted the part I wanted to discuss.

 

[WindstormSCR]

From personal experience, I'd argue the swampfox arrowhead is as parallax-free as most red dots on 1x, neither is perfectly parallax free. Lots of the lower quality LPVOs will have some degree of distortion when used on 1x, but the same could be said of red dots. I'd say once you hit a certain baseline of quality parallax ceases to be a concern and other things differentiate the platforms.

While my personal tastes lie with LPVOs and prisms for serious work, red dots are getting better all the time and definitely have a place, especially in high stress situations where you want as much visibility as you can get.


One thing worth mentioning is that as technology advances, some holographic and variable magnifier setups are combining the advantages of red dot speeds and visibility with LPVO versatility.

If I didn't have astig, and someone handed me an intermediate caliber cartridge rifle and told me I could only ever put one optic setup on it, my answer would probably lean towards the best holographic and variable magnifier setup I could get.

 

[MCRD58]

Maybe stop paying attention to the flavor of the month and just setup your rifle how it works best for you?

Since my carbine lives in suburbia 95% of the time, a simple RDS in a QD mount lives on it. I also have a pre zeroed 1-4X on a QD mount if needed.

Perhaps I'm a bit off subject with my comment but I agree with .308pirate. I joined the Marine Corps 64 years ago. I was issued, and for six years carried an M1 Garand. Today, in my '80's, I still frequently go to a range or into the field with this same "companion". Those old iron sights serve me well and I'm able to accomplish all that I reasonably expect of my rifle and myself. I make no pretense of being the worlds best rifleman but I carry with the confidence that my expectations and needs are well served. .308pirate's admonition "works best for you" is exceeding wise and fully resolves the question.

 

[chase723]

I think we’ve been moving forward. I’ve got an MRO, an EoTech, and a G3 Razor…outside of fighting inside a house, the G3 kicks the asses of the others…if the G3 had a red dot attached, which it will soon, then that combo seems to be the winner.

 

[cbbryan]

Like others have said run what you like... There are literally thousands of "tacticool experts" whose opinion rely on group think. This is one of the setups I plan on using for 2 gun. I like it and will only change it if I find a set-up I like better.
View attachment 7741375View attachment 7741376View attachment 7741377

What scope mount are you running with the offset RDS?

 

[rlsmith1]

I like the tried and true "aim with flashlight beam" when it's dark, close and dynamic

 

[Rob01]

 

[John Baker]

Adding a 3rd dimension.
Expectations and capability don't always go together.
Expectations to a real world should always be considered.
What is my true engagement criteria.
We were "debating" with a person the other day to his point of "exact"... to what level and to what extreme always gets in the way. While he degraded our component he would not recognize he was already using a max point blank and not shooting the fly on the deer's hide.
While it is considered by many an AR15 5.56 is not capable of 500yds (600yds) or that a red dot is not capable of accurately engaging to those distances. We routinely engage those distances with magnifiers, red dots and an Alpha at various military bases. In short - testing by SF groups and "arms assessment" groups seem to note otherwise (capability is there). PLUS - note big PLUS- who is the shooter. What is the training requirement?
If we set the stage at torso engagement of 40". 16" barrel shooting an M855 round. The zero is 50m and 300m.
You have a point blank value of 0-360m.
At 360m flip up the Alpha and hold center of target- new second point blank now exists from 360-480m
If I hold top of target that extends to 530m.
Back to capability- testing new recruits comparing to LPVO, 5x+ optics, ACOG style etc... - a magnifier, red dot and Alpha outperformed those groups consistently man for man. Performance is so high "we have to reassess our findings and direction". In a recent 3-gun out of 50+ shooters 5 had red dots. A shooter with a magnifier, red dot and Alpha placed 3rd in the long range (beyond 300yds) portion.
If this is about flexibility to take an average AR and extend range to 500m simply- this is it.
See testimonies; 3rd party, example Tony Cowden.
Our new reticle (Master Reticle) performs the same function on multiple "stacked" critical zones. It can instantly be applied to all known ammunition rounds (1000-5000fps, grape fruit to house size). We are having several versions being built: if your shooting 1moa targets you could have 5points extending out with no gaps or overlap. No estimation of hold over. Instant transfer to another weapon or bullet/cartridge.
In very short summary- few shooters engage "fly's" with a precision requirement of "one hole". We engage a "target size". Deer 8", Caribou 15", enemy combatant 40", truck 96"-- how to place effective rounds on target in the lowest amount of time, rounds fired and reduced exposure time.
tacomhq.com

 

[Lefty1121]

I agree with above. I also think when the 3 gun game came on hard back in early 2k lots of guys realized how much was getting done with there rifle. The 1-6 was ideal for that type of 5yd-500yd shooting. For lots of us including myself after using a 1-6 in competition for almost 20 years now becoming very proficient with it. I now find it to do everything I want on my do all rifle. Now my sbr I run a delta point and it’s fantastic, have a pistol caliber carbine that I shoot steel matches with and up until recently I just shot it with irons and it was super fast, delta point on that now also. I wouldn’t think there was a koolaid I just think it’s the application, lots of guys now are probably planning on doing nothing but protecting there home or self defense. But imo the 1-6 does it all!

I so agree here. In 3 gun when you're out over 250 yds. shooting smallish targets like dirty diamonds the magnification really helps speedy acquisition. Then up close the LPVO is just like a red dot. Even at 100 yds. 3-4 power is handy especially for these old eyes.

 

[John Baker]

I am not arguing what works best for you.
Actually one could argue what works best for you might not be the correct answer- otherwise you can't be "trained" .
I am not arguing against any of the other options. You are arguing against this device(s).
This was merely a note on a third option. We WORK WITH all optics- ALL.
You are wrong - the way I read "no system is point blank on a deer out to 360m"... ours is/does.
The 40" torso... even I admit that is a big deer. We were not engaging deer in that scenario.
PRS or SF... Precision Rifle versus Special Forces... I am not sure we are on the same page.
First place, Second Place... You are correct and a guy also beat a whole bunch of other shooters with LPVO's. Point of view.
It is not us (though we have tested multiple times on random groups) who claim an advantage using our system over other systems when in a new recruits hands. You need to go to our web page to see who makes that claim. USASOC seems to rank for me. Any Mil report positive response is a "good thing" ... then again maybe they are wrong and you are right (sarcasm).
Yes we do use these devices with LPVO- in fact we demo 100m to 1000m engagements with one simple flip up. How many LPVO's can instantly engage 1000m targets- instantly. Practical - maybe not- but the moment we get into 6mm or 6.5mm ...
Fact is (100%)_ of all tested shooters - state that even with "knowledge" we bring speed and simplicity. This comes from some pretty big "guns".
However- as you note - its what fits you.
I do think it is, potentially, short sighted if-- you have never shot our devices.
Assuming you have read the reports on our website - what is your counter data?
Some have noted the best system would be an LPVO paired with an Alpha - precision paired with speed and simplicity.
Lizard mentality... even hunter's succumb to this.
By your comments I assume you have ran our devices- what were your findings?
Did you shoot them with a dot or LPVO or ACOG style?

As a final note: if a person has never experienced a device, method, process... they are not in the best position to point out "weaknesses" or failures. I think that should be remembered at times on this website. Listen, learn, test - do what works best for you then.

 

[rlsmith1]

@Rob01 No lasers because if I stare into it I'm blinded and stay blind. Surefire doesn't treat me like that

 

[Evolution 9]

@John Baker ,

First, I don’t see any commercial supporter credentials attached to your name, and you’re clearly pushing your product and business. Maybe you got clearance for that. If not, I’d fix your shit ASAP.

Second, I’ve seen a lot of companies try to promote themselves on various forums. Try. Based on your current tone/style, you might consider hiring a public relations person. That’s a very educated opinion but it’s still just an opinion so you decide.

Third, some of the guys here are very experienced with a wide variety of different equipment. We are often fully capable of evaluating what your product will and will not accomplish for us based on the product description. We do it all the time.

Good luck. I really do wish you and your company well.

 

[John Baker]

Hi Jim,
True we rarely appear on this site... it always initially devolves into "battle" LOL.
Actually "Lizard mentality" was used by a mil trainer we were with a couple of weeks back. I kind of liked it. He was noting as the pressure rises the capability of response devolves to simpler and simpler base actions. Not in anyway directed at you. Though in truth "lizards" have been here way longer than us and will most likely be here way after. I am sure you have been at the range - let alone a hunt- and your not completely sure that guy behind that rifle is ... well the lizard might win.
The note on the .223: or any very flat round allowing extended point blank ranges. I actually understood what you meant and was not dividing hairs. I was actually noting our reticle will allow second, third, fourth point blank ranges. Therefore effective with a 300BO to 5000fps someday round. Stacked point blank ranges. The reticle will allow a 360yd shot on a deer - using max point blank methods - with your 30-30 poking along at 2200fps. Maybe I will get called out noting there is a new reticle (sarcasm).
Actually I would be very interested in your points on wedge prisms. I am very open to factual weak points of any system. Otherwise how do we improve. I would welcome you contacting us through our website. Understanding your point of view would be helpful since we make wedges from 0-60mil.
Really for all of those out there: I was in no means cutting down any other system and personally own multiple LPVO's. As noted: a Vortex 1-6 sits on our AR10- 260Rem as a go to demo. A new 1-10x is on its way. Our main point was simplicity of application and effectiveness.
Concerning skill: at some point it is nearly impossible to beat. I shoot with David Tubb every few months for testing purposes. Do I get lucky and out shoot him periodically? Yes. Am I foolish to believe I could beat him day after day.. not even remotely. Your skills speak to themselves. Our goal is to put a device in a "simple" shooters hands, mount it on their carbine, and they know they can engage a few blocks down the road with zero training.

Evolution:
"you’re clearly pushing your product and business. Maybe you got clearance for that. If not, I’d fix your shit ASAP."
This is not sarcasm: how do you tell someone something else exists on this site?
We did not talk about price, availability, didn't even give a website.
What do we need to "fix"?
Reading the terms and rules I cannot find were I broke a rule.
We showed a product not described in this thread.
We countered a view point with our facts.
We did not disparage anybody in the remotest of terms: asking someone if they have used our product or looked at our website is not disparagement. It is a respectful challenge.
Not sure how a "fact" is a tone.
At no point did I remotely get into some intelligence wagon- we work with entry people who have never pulled a trigger to Seal Team guys. Not sure how much wider of a range you can get. Or capable.

 

[Dogtown]

The LPVO's really seemed to come from a recce build standpoint, plus guys running mixed engagements, overwatch while pushing partner forces etc.

There's a direct connection between modern LPVOs and the Gothic Serpent AAR. It took a while and there were some failures along the way (ie Leupold), but the S&B Short Dot was the first one to actually meet the requirement.

So it's not like it was a solution looking for a problem.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Hi Jim,
True we rarely appear on this site... it always initially devolves into "battle" LOL.
Actually "Lizard mentality" was used by a mil trainer we were with a couple of weeks back. I kind of liked it. He was noting as the pressure rises the capability of response devolves to simpler and simpler base actions. Not in anyway directed at you. Though in truth "lizards" have been here way longer than us and will most likely be here way after. I am sure you have been at the range - let alone a hunt- and your not completely sure that guy behind that rifle is ... well the lizard might win.
The note on the .223: or any very flat round allowing extended point blank ranges. I actually understood what you meant and was not dividing hairs. I was actually noting our reticle will allow second, third, fourth point blank ranges. Therefore effective with a 300BO to 5000fps someday round. Stacked point blank ranges. The reticle will allow a 360yd shot on a deer - using max point blank methods - with your 30-30 poking along at 2200fps. Maybe I will get called out noting there is a new reticle (sarcasm).
Actually I would be very interested in your points on wedge prisms. I am very open to factual weak points of any system. Otherwise how do we improve. I would welcome you contacting us through our website. Understanding your point of view would be helpful since we make wedges from 0-60mil.
Really for all of those out there: I was in no means cutting down any other system and personally own multiple LPVO's. As noted: a Vortex 1-6 sits on our AR10- 260Rem as a go to demo. A new 1-10x is on its way. Our main point was simplicity of application and effectiveness.
Concerning skill: at some point it is nearly impossible to beat. I shoot with David Tubb every few months for testing purposes. Do I get lucky and out shoot him periodically? Yes. Am I foolish to believe I could beat him day after day.. not even remotely. Your skills speak to themselves. Our goal is to put a device in a "simple" shooters hands, mount it on their carbine, and they know they can engage a few blocks down the road with zero training.

Evolution:
"you’re clearly pushing your product and business. Maybe you got clearance for that. If not, I’d fix your shit ASAP."
This is not sarcasm: how do you tell someone something else exists on this site?
We did not talk about price, availability, didn't even give a website.
What do we need to "fix"?
Reading the terms and rules I cannot find were I broke a rule.
We showed a product not described in this thread.
We countered a view point with our facts.
We did not disparage anybody in the remotest of terms: asking someone if they have used our product or looked at our website is not disparagement. It is a respectful challenge.
Not sure how a "fact" is a tone.
At no point did I remotely get into some intelligence wagon- we work with entry people who have never pulled a trigger to Seal Team guys. Not sure how much wider of a range you can get. Or capable.

Your keyboard must hate you

 

[John Baker]

Your keyboard must hate you

Now that's funny.
Just gave me the finger when I walked in... must be a "woke" keyboard. If it starts to threaten to burn things down..

 

[WindstormSCR]

tacomhq.com

We did not talk about price, availability, didn't even give a website.

uh, yes you did

What do we need to "fix"?

Supporter credentials as detailed in the site rules, I may be a lurker and only recently started posting, but it's there and plain for everyone to see.
Your posts are very stream of thought, even if they contain good information, that information is hard to dig into because of the format in which it is presented.

NOW, having said that, I'm always open to the idea of new and interesting tech, and flip-up sight adjustment prisms are something that I think does have serious potential, just as the newer variable magnifiers do (I would argue they're the missing item to make a holo/variable mag the best of all worlds) but they also need to overcome a lot of skepticism about durability.

that's where we come back to the commercial supporter credentials thing. get that sorted, hire a PR person (or just work on the post formatting/organization) and this place is a very good one to win over a lot of folks in the civilian market by proving what your stuff can do.

Edit: I really don't mean to come across as combative, the stuff on Tacom looks very good, and as someone with an engineering and machining background I appreciate the detail there, the commentary is more just a "playing by the rules" thing. Seriously considering an alpha for my MDRX setup, and that rifle only gets the good stuff

 

[Makinchips208]

There's a direct connection between modern LPVOs and the Gothic Serpent AAR. It took a while and there were some failures along the way (ie Leupold), but the S&B Short Dot was the first one to actually meet the requirement.

So it's not like it was a solution looking for a problem.

Someone with some historical context to the OP! Nice job man!

 

[John Baker]

uh, yes you did

Supporter credentials as detailed in the site rules, I may be a lurker and only recently started posting, but it's there and plain for everyone to see.
Your posts are very stream of thought, even if they contain good information, that information is hard to dig into because of the format in which it is presented.

NOW, having said that, I'm always open to the idea of new and interesting tech, and flip-up sight adjustment prisms are something that I think does have serious potential, just as the newer variable magnifiers do (I would argue they're the missing item to make a holo/variable mag the best of all worlds) but they also need to overcome a lot of skepticism about durability.

that's where we come back to the commercial supporter credentials thing. get that sorted, hire a PR person (or just work on the post formatting/organization) and this place is a very good one to win over a lot of folks in the civilian market by proving what your stuff can do.

Ok ... I think I found the area your talking about and paid for a year "Supporter". That set's me at about $75/forum response LOL. I still have not found what (where they are listed) the rules that set the limits concerning talking about a product. Are you saying we cannot talk about our product? Only third party can talk about our product? Or are you saying we need a full "Commercial" in order to talk about our product in any form?

You are right- I did give our website... I acted before thought.

 

[Rob01]

Ok ... I think I found the area your talking about and paid for a year "Supporter". That set's me at about $75/forum response LOL. I still have not found what (where they are listed) the rules that set the limits concerning talking about a product. Are you saying we cannot talk about our product? Only third party can talk about our product? Or are you saying we need a full "Commercial" in order to talk about our product in any form?

You are right- I did give our website... I acted before thought.

Look at the link below. Under Commercial is pretty clear.

Account upgrades

www.snipershide.com

 

[John Baker]

uh, yes you did

Supporter credentials as detailed in the site rules, I may be a lurker and only recently started posting, but it's there and plain for everyone to see.
Your posts are very stream of thought, even if they contain good information, that information is hard to dig into because of the format in which it is presented.

NOW, having said that, I'm always open to the idea of new and interesting tech, and flip-up sight adjustment prisms are something that I think does have serious potential, just as the newer variable magnifiers do (I would argue they're the missing item to make a holo/variable mag the best of all worlds) but they also need to overcome a lot of skepticism about durability.

that's where we come back to the commercial supporter credentials thing. get that sorted, hire a PR person (or just work on the post formatting/organization) and this place is a very good one to win over a lot of folks in the civilian market by proving what your stuff can do.

Edit: I really don't mean to come across as combative, the stuff on Tacom looks very good, and as someone with an engineering and machining background I appreciate the detail there, the commentary is more just a "playing by the rules" thing. Seriously considering an alpha for my MDRX setup, and that rifle only gets the good stuff

Thank you.
I have no wish to "play outside the boundaries" as it is not fair to any other product on this website. Happy to get in that "pen". Actually the few times we have been on line - had someone "have a different point of view" has always lead to a phone call and meeting of the minds. Always to very positive outcomes. In fact I have a phone call with a person who was in our discussion in a few minutes.
You won't be disappointed. You get stupid fast "effect engagement" and will retain your precision ... assuming the use of the LPVO. It's always a hoot when we take the guys to 1000's yards with our 1-6x.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Ok ... I think I found the area your talking about and paid for a year "Supporter". That set's me at about $75/forum response LOL. I still have not found what (where they are listed) the rules that set the limits concerning talking about a product. Are you saying we cannot talk about our product? Only third party can talk about our product? Or are you saying we need a full "Commercial" in order to talk about our product in any form?

You are right- I did give our website... I acted before thought.

Looking at the rules section again, the commercial supporter is a requirement for anyone who sells a relevant product or holds an FFL, and essentially is the "advertising fee" that SH charges people with commercial interests. The upside is that it makes it clear that you are affiliated with a product or service and can officially speak for that product or service, and allows you to freely advertise and hype up your products on the site (as long as it follows the rules).

edit: and then staff beat me to it.

back on topic, I think something to add into the discussion is the very recent advent of things going in FRONT of the standard optics train. things like the aforementioned TACOM Alpha, the Trybe defense 2x enhancer, etc

My current setup uses the Trybe on top of a 1-10 Swampfox LPVO, and the ability to go from 1x to 20x with granularity depending on what is attached is no small thing.

 

[John Baker]

Look at the link below. Under Commercial is pretty clear.

Account upgrades

www.snipershide.com

Ok - To clearly understand.
We have a FFL
We produce product.
Without a Commercial we cannot talk about the product in any form.

 

[Rob01]

Ok - To clearly understand.
We have a FFL
We produce product.
Without a Commercial we cannot talk about the product in any form.

No not per the rules. Here is a link to the rules and also the section on Commercial:

2021 Sniper's Hide Forum Rules

Our Membership makes the forum, so understand that not all members have the same level of seniority. Best practice is to learn the dynamics of our community before jumping in with both feet. 2021 Sniper’s Hide Forum Rules Welcome to Sniper’s Hide 2021, a site for the serious tactical marksman...

www.snipershide.com

Posting an Item for Sale requires Members to Upgrade to a Supporter Account

Commercial

1. No posting of links advertising off-site sales of any kind without express permission from the board or one of its moderators
2. No advertising any off-site website that competes with Sniper’s Hide.
3. No commercial postings by any business without first subscribing to the site's rules regarding Commercial Sales. Any business found violating this will be removed along with any and all posts. Contact Lowlight to get a sponsored membership.
4. Do not attack companies. Members who chase down and attack any representative from any company shall be banned.

@lowlight is the site owner and if you have an issue or question you can contact him for any help.

 

[WindstormSCR]

I'm probably in the minority, but I prefer them over offset red dots or offset irons for CQB point shooting. at least when dealing with rapid transitions from an LPVO

significantly improved my times at a local steel match after switching to point-shooting with a PERST-4 laser for the section that requires swapping between near and far targets repeatedly.

 

[Makinchips208]

I have heard that lasers was hardly visible on red or green flannel. Is that true or a myth?

 

[WindstormSCR]

I have heard that lasers was hardly visible on red or green flannel. Is that true or a myth?

class 3A lasers will always wash out easily on backgrounds of similar color, in daylight at least. that is largely because of the low power making it difficult for your eye to distinguish between the light the material is reflecting and the scattered laser light.

it's one of the reasons I went for the PERST-4 G+ laser over some other options, the extra power allows it to stand out against pretty much any surface even in daylight, while still being low-power enough the scattered light isn't a hazard (unless you're dumb enough to point it at a mirror)

the 2Hz pulse mode is also handy as a means to cause compliance (2Hz green light is disorienting as hell, will make you lose balance and feel nauseous)

 

[John Baker]

No not per the rules. Here is a link to the rules and also the section on Commercial:

2021 Sniper's Hide Forum Rules

Our Membership makes the forum, so understand that not all members have the same level of seniority. Best practice is to learn the dynamics of our community before jumping in with both feet. 2021 Sniper’s Hide Forum Rules Welcome to Sniper’s Hide 2021, a site for the serious tactical marksman...

www.snipershide.com

Posting an Item for Sale requires Members to Upgrade to a Supporter Account

Commercial

1. No posting of links advertising off-site sales of any kind without express permission from the board or one of its moderators
2. No advertising any off-site website that competes with Sniper’s Hide.
3. No commercial postings by any business without first subscribing to the site's rules regarding Commercial Sales. Any business found violating this will be removed along with any and all posts. Contact Lowlight to get a sponsored membership.
4. Do not attack companies. Members who chase down and attack any representative from any company shall be banned.

@lowlight is the site owner and if you have an issue or question you can contact him for any help.

Ok - thank you for the clarification.
One last series of questions:
Can we respond to a thread started about our product(s)?
Can we respond to a thread that goes factually negative?
Can we respond to a thread that goes "emotionally" negative"?
The only other item I could add- and don't beat me up- I initially read the Terms and Rules. That is what I used to set the four corners of my posting. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to add one line "Any and all commercial representations or descriptions of any type- See Support- Commercial" or some type of line like that, in the Terms and Rules, for those not versed in Forum etiquette (like me). It would have at least raised a red flag.

I will reach out to Frank - not to argue or counter your points.

 

[308pirate]

. I was actually noting our reticle will allow second, third, fourth point blank ranges. Therefore effective with a 300BO to 5000fps someday round. Stacked point blank ranges. The reticle will allow a 360yd shot on a deer - using max point blank methods - with your 30-30 poking along at 2200fps. Maybe I will get called out noting there is a new reticle (sarcasm)

This guarantees I will never buy whatever you sell

 

[John Baker]

This guarantees I will never buy whatever you sell

Can I ask why?
What is in that line that is such a turn off?

 

[Evolution 9]

***is given suggestion to put a skilled PR person in charge of social media***

***disregards and continues to demonstrate the need***.

 

[Solo 43]

Interesting thread....but it comes down to what are you doing with it. I shot my competition AR 'service rifle' @ 1000 yds at the Nationals (yes, I was pushing that little 80 gnr'er pretty hard), but mostly stayed at 2/3/600 yds in high power (yes, iron sights..earned my High Master card with it). I also spent 20+ yrs on SWAT, as an instructor and point man and X'mented with everything for 'entry's.....to gain an edge! I won't go into all my testing/X'menting, but nothing beats a red dot for speed and FOV. FOV is very important when you're making entry!

 

[Mute]

Have tried everything under the sun as far as AR optics. ACOG with RDS can get the job done but it's a niche solution that has it's disadvantages. LPVO isn't a perfect solution for all-in-one, but it gets closer than the ACOG solution. Mind you I love ACOGs but as with any equipment, the end use dictates the effectiveness. That's why I have different optics for different purposes and do not generally try to find just one solution for every need.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

That's why I have different optics for different purposes and do not generally try to find just one solution for every need.

That's why these threads often get heated. People spend so much time with what they think is the ONE right answer for their ONE use case that they become emotionally invested in it. The key is to get 10 different AR's and set them up for different purposes, and be honest with yourself about the pros/cons of every system. Then you don't have to defend your choice on the internet, you just grab a different rifle as the situation dictates.

 

[John Baker]

***is given suggestion to put a skilled PR person in charge of social media***

***disregards and continues to demonstrate the need***.

Taking really deep breaths - breath- breath... I am sorry that my tone has not met a "standard". To your point we are not in a position to bring on a PR person. It will take a bit of growth to do that. Really - sorry.

I spoke to the person last night at the center of this (JimmyJr) for 45minutes. A really great conversation- actually he did not take offense to anything I typed. We laughed at several points. We are sending him product to try out... turns out we have a lot in common. He was "surprised" at the depth of product we are into and I believe will be a life long follower/ perhaps even friend.

Which is what I would think I have with people on this forum: something in common. I find it "shocking" when someone says I will never buy anything from you over "tone". I do believe "tone" is subjective. Or should I ask "less in common" than I thought?

However- JimmyJr reached out to us at my request. I challenge anyone else to reach out- ask questions. At least figure out we aren't class A jerks.

Capability- I don't doubt anyone's capability on this forum. The fact is 90% of people do not get our devices or concepts until they get behind the gun and pull a trigger. If I had told you five years ago we could shoot 6000+yds you would have said... BS. If you would watch our 3rd party videos the term "I did not think that.." occurs more than once.

I did reach out to Frank and had a long talk with him. I apologized for overstepping bounds (which he did clarify for me) and talked about adding a line into the Terms and Rules directing specifically to the Commercial aspects.

It is a tough line when you are trying to bring someone to a point of view in which a base concept about the device is not understood. Such as moving the horizon/Object image before a primary optic.

I will see Frank in a couple of weeks in Texas - I look forward to working with him over this winter on our reticle concept (no sarcasm LOL) and talking to him about a gun build for him with one of our barrels.

Well at least we have one thing two things in common: Frank and Snipers Hide.... do I hear three?