Greetings. I am going to be instructing an LRM class in the next few weeks and I have been instructed to add some high angle/low angle info as pertaining to the ACOG and M68. If anybody has any experience instructing or some advice it would be much appreciated. Thanks
Advanced Marksmanship High Angle Training Materials
- Thread starter fergchri
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Re: High Angle Training Materials
Seriously...I have poopy face myself. I have tried to explain why this is a bad idea but it came from too far "higher".
Seriously...I have poopy face myself. I have tried to explain why this is a bad idea but it came from too far "higher".
Re: High Angle Training Materials
B4 Ridiculous...I know. Its not my idea. I just need some info to make some heads nod in approval.
B4 Ridiculous...I know. Its not my idea. I just need some info to make some heads nod in approval.
Re: High Angle Training Materials
Here is what you can say,
The distances shot by the M16/M4 effectively, and by that I don't mean max effective range, but normal effective ranges as it is employed, <span style="font-style: italic">(caveated that there are exceptions to every rule)</span> will only cause minor variations in your hold for any given distance. The bullet is effected by gravity and not the linear distance across the ground. So the degree of the angle matters most, as well the distance which it is acted on by gravity.
To illustrate this, I had this on my iPhone so excuse the crude nature, but it shows how the distance is effected by the angle, roughly.
Lines are all equal, for demo, say 1000 yards long. But the gravity distance is only 800 yards on the angle.
For a full size target hold low, regardless of the shot, uphill or downhill, and for a full size target recommend aiming at the stomach/balls... for partially obscured targets more care will have to be take, but again, holding low.
You can read something like Sierra's article on angle shooting for details, but for combat, holding low works. Google should help... but this should give you something. With an ACOG you're not gonna be running numbers and doing the math so hold low.
Here is what you can say,
The distances shot by the M16/M4 effectively, and by that I don't mean max effective range, but normal effective ranges as it is employed, <span style="font-style: italic">(caveated that there are exceptions to every rule)</span> will only cause minor variations in your hold for any given distance. The bullet is effected by gravity and not the linear distance across the ground. So the degree of the angle matters most, as well the distance which it is acted on by gravity.
To illustrate this, I had this on my iPhone so excuse the crude nature, but it shows how the distance is effected by the angle, roughly.
Lines are all equal, for demo, say 1000 yards long. But the gravity distance is only 800 yards on the angle.
For a full size target hold low, regardless of the shot, uphill or downhill, and for a full size target recommend aiming at the stomach/balls... for partially obscured targets more care will have to be take, but again, holding low.
You can read something like Sierra's article on angle shooting for details, but for combat, holding low works. Google should help... but this should give you something. With an ACOG you're not gonna be running numbers and doing the math so hold low.
Re: High Angle Training Materials
The rifleman's rule will help you but in context to LL post hold low. The steeper the angle the more its going to cause a change between the line of sight range and the true "horizonal range".
The rifleman's rule will help you but in context to LL post hold low. The steeper the angle the more its going to cause a change between the line of sight range and the true "horizonal range".
Re: High Angle Training Materials
Honestly, I think the biggest issue with high angle shooting isn't the hold, it is the body position. You can't just plop down prone and deliver rounds on target. If most of your shooting is straight and level, as most of ours is, then you have to modify your positions to be able to hold the POA properly. Kneeling, buddy barricade, tripods, sitting...all just a little different when you are shooting high uphill or downhill.
Honestly, I think the biggest issue with high angle shooting isn't the hold, it is the body position. You can't just plop down prone and deliver rounds on target. If most of your shooting is straight and level, as most of ours is, then you have to modify your positions to be able to hold the POA properly. Kneeling, buddy barricade, tripods, sitting...all just a little different when you are shooting high uphill or downhill.
Re: High Angle Training Materials
Go to the CMP Bookstore and order the SDM DVD, it covers the rifle you are talking about PLUS has a good section on Angle shooting with that rifle.
Well worth the $6.95 its gonna cost you.
Go to the CMP Bookstore and order the SDM DVD, it covers the rifle you are talking about PLUS has a good section on Angle shooting with that rifle.
Well worth the $6.95 its gonna cost you.
Re: High Angle Training Materials
I think Frank mentions, or eludes, to this in his post. If your not shooting at a somewhat serious angle, it's not going to matter. I have very little training in this matter, but I've done it. I have shot down hills, that are taxing to walk up, and the angle hardly mattered at all. Of course, I'm not trying to drill an x-ring just ring a half size e-type. I had one of those indicators on my rifle, and stopped using it after about the 5th shot once we got on the mountains. It was just something that got in the way of the actual process.
I understand that the USMC has a school that has some very extreme angles that do have a noticeable effect. It's all terrain based and I think it's good to go do it and find out when it matters and when you can disregard and worry about other things.
Franks advice is sound for sure. If your dope puts you in the guys chest, the worst thing that happens is you shoot him in the pelvic area. I don't think that's a bad way to do it. It's hard to walk with a broken pelvis and stationary targets are easy to hit.
I got to thinking about this. Are you teaching for the military? If it's the Army I imagine that your men are going to have 25/300m zeros on their weapons. How far are they going to be shooting? Aiming low at a close range, without a pretty serious angle, is not going to be good. This concept is something that people will say they understand, but don't. I've met guys that have been to multiple sniper schools within the military that don't grasp the concept very well. I hope that you have the flexibility to not teach this if it's over the head of some young Soldier(s).
I think Frank mentions, or eludes, to this in his post. If your not shooting at a somewhat serious angle, it's not going to matter. I have very little training in this matter, but I've done it. I have shot down hills, that are taxing to walk up, and the angle hardly mattered at all. Of course, I'm not trying to drill an x-ring just ring a half size e-type. I had one of those indicators on my rifle, and stopped using it after about the 5th shot once we got on the mountains. It was just something that got in the way of the actual process.
I understand that the USMC has a school that has some very extreme angles that do have a noticeable effect. It's all terrain based and I think it's good to go do it and find out when it matters and when you can disregard and worry about other things.
Franks advice is sound for sure. If your dope puts you in the guys chest, the worst thing that happens is you shoot him in the pelvic area. I don't think that's a bad way to do it. It's hard to walk with a broken pelvis and stationary targets are easy to hit.
I got to thinking about this. Are you teaching for the military? If it's the Army I imagine that your men are going to have 25/300m zeros on their weapons. How far are they going to be shooting? Aiming low at a close range, without a pretty serious angle, is not going to be good. This concept is something that people will say they understand, but don't. I've met guys that have been to multiple sniper schools within the military that don't grasp the concept very well. I hope that you have the flexibility to not teach this if it's over the head of some young Soldier(s).
Re: High Angle Training Materials
FWIW, here's a quick reference for corrected slope dope, in yards.
Now wrap your brain around how to use this info. The top horizontal bold numbers are the actual line of sight lasered range from shooting position to target, 200 to 1200 yards. The left side bold vertical numbers are the angle of the shot where ZERO degrees is LEVEL and the angle listed, 20 to 80 degrees, is the deflection up or down from LEVEL. The numbers in the body of the chart are the corrected value regarding the real effect that gravity will have on the bullet for that sloped shot. The same numbers apply to both uphill and downhill. Make your own suppositions why I didn't include 0 to 10, or anything steeper than 80.
You can see where an extreme of an 80 degree slope on a 200 yard shot is a mere 35 yards worth of gravitational effect on the bullet.
Yeah, hold low.......
That's basically shooting straight down off a cliff or straight up the side of one, but angle does matter to the physics of it. How much it matters to what you are doing is entirely up to you.
FWIW, here's a quick reference for corrected slope dope, in yards.
Now wrap your brain around how to use this info. The top horizontal bold numbers are the actual line of sight lasered range from shooting position to target, 200 to 1200 yards. The left side bold vertical numbers are the angle of the shot where ZERO degrees is LEVEL and the angle listed, 20 to 80 degrees, is the deflection up or down from LEVEL. The numbers in the body of the chart are the corrected value regarding the real effect that gravity will have on the bullet for that sloped shot. The same numbers apply to both uphill and downhill. Make your own suppositions why I didn't include 0 to 10, or anything steeper than 80.
You can see where an extreme of an 80 degree slope on a 200 yard shot is a mere 35 yards worth of gravitational effect on the bullet.
Yeah, hold low.......
That's basically shooting straight down off a cliff or straight up the side of one, but angle does matter to the physics of it. How much it matters to what you are doing is entirely up to you.
High Angle Training Materials (Horus ASLI)
Just buy a Horus A.S.L.I. (Angle, Slope, Level Indicator)device and mount it properly on your scope. High angle shooting will never be a problem again.
Just buy a Horus A.S.L.I. (Angle, Slope, Level Indicator)device and mount it properly on your scope. High angle shooting will never be a problem again.
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