Homemade Induction Annealer

#601
I'm up and running now and so far, satisfied. The trick now is deciding how long to anneal. I am used to using a flame and a drill with a socket. I heated until the neck began to glow. I'm using the same premise with this annealer, but it seems the color pattern on the brass isn't the same. The flame method makes a pretty ring below the shoulder. I am not seeing much change at all in the brass with this method. I read where color change is NOT a good indicator of annealing, however it will make me feel better if I see some evidence of my labor. I will add that I turn 750 Tempilaq black on the inside of the neck.

Problems:
1) My ammeter display turns blank occasionally. It is still backlit (solid blue), but there are not any number/words present. It only clears when I shut down the 48v power and let it completely turn off. It takes several second for the display to turn off after power is turned off. When I restart the power supply the ammeter reads again. What is going on?

2) I am running Lapua 308 brass. At 5.7 seconds the neck just starts to glow in a dark room. This was topping out at 17+ amps with the power supply adjusted to 42.5 volts. About 20 rounds into it the brass neck stopped glowing and the amps dropped to about 14amps. Everything was cool on the coil and the ZVS. The capacitors were warm at best. I turned the power up to 45v and got back to nearly 17amps and continued on. Any ideas what might have caused the power drop?
 
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#602
For those of you that have made the MGNZ or a variant of it, what is the total cost of your assembly? The last time I added up the parts list cost it looked to be around $500, but some of the recent replies are making me think it's higher now.
 
#604
Antonio Moraes said:
Anyone made a dual coil for the original MGNZ setup? Any improvement, thoughts, tips?
Click to expand...
I've made a few different ones for mine, mainly so it was short so I could position 6BR cases in a good spot. The latest one I made smaller diameter, around 3/4" on the inside with the outer coils wrapped pretty tightly around the inner ones, 7 1/2 coils in total. It works very well, I had to drop the voltage to 39v or it melted a 223 case neck in 2 seconds. It now runs 2.3 seconds for a 223 case.
 
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#605
Gtar said:
I've made a few different ones for mine, mainly so it was short so I could position 6BR cases in a good spot. The latest one I made smaller diameter, around 3/4" on the inside with the outer coils wrapped pretty tightly around the inner ones, 7 1/2 coils in total. It works very well, I had to drop the voltage to 39v or it melted a 223 case neck in 2 seconds. It now runs 2.3 seconds for a 223 case.
Click to expand...

Thank you!
 
#606
Hi everyone, I know this is a really old thread from two years ago but I just finished building my annealer and I must say that I really like it. There are a couple changes that I do want to make and was wondering if anyone has made these changes.

I am going to add a larger power supply since the 600W that I am using takes 8 secs to anneal a piece of 308 brass and I have a few thousands to anneal among other pieces like 223 etc.

I have read most of the thread and I have seen others mention the size of the oled screen, I am definitely going to go with a larger four wire screen.

* This is the main change I would like to make. Has anyone added an infrared sensor to detect when there is presence of brass to be annealed and then start the ZVS? I don't like that the ZVS keeps working even though there is nothing to be annealed.

A friend of mine helped me build an annealing machine years ago that uses a 1000w power supply, I don't use that one much since you have to hand feed the brass and I never built a hopper for it. But this MGNZ annealer I like a lot better since everything comes as a package. With the 1000W power supply I can anneal a piece of 308 brass in 2 seconds. Also, it has circuitry that does not allow the annealing process to start unless there is brass there.

* How do you make those interwinding coils, I like the idea that its short and would like to make and use a coil like that.


Appreciate any help folks.

In case I forgot, in order to cool down the ZVS I used an 80mm computer fan and tapped two holes in the heatsink on the ZVS board and added some standoffs to mount the fan. Connect the fan to the 12v power supply and you have a lot of air blowing directly on top of the ZVS constantly.


Thanks...
 
#610
The_Steward said:
I made a video on my annealer, as I just finished a big update to it.



Big things I've learned..

1. Using table salt to wind the main coil is the way to go. Works way better than the ice methods.
2. If I built this without errors from scratch, I'd be in $850 on it. I've got more than that in it due to screw ups and parts replacements. An AMP makes a *lot* of sense.
3. You really don't need crazy power. I'm using a 1kW power supply, and this adds a lot of cost if you want to be able to handle that power effectively. 600w is fine.

But it was a fun project, and it works.

I give you, the Brass Brutalizer 1000.
Click to expand...


just checking, are you saying rather just buy the parts from mgnz-makes or you suggesting we take/build as from www.schematix.com
would you mind sharing your hopper/feeder design, as per my YouTube question, in what did you do it, TinkerCad or Fusion360 ?
looks like a lekker project to just try.

G
 
#611
MGNZ only makes a control board/software. You have to assemble everything yourself beyond that. They do have a bit of a guide on what else you need, but it requires a bit of understanding to make it all work. The schematix website provided the ZVS circuit that I used. This is the circuit that take the power supply power and converts it into a high frequency oscillating current required to make the induction heating work.

My hopper design is based on this: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4902058

I think @Gtar is the original designer? I just redrew it and modified to my purposes in Fusion360, but I don't intend to share files. I used to, but since my work got taken and used by people to sell crap on Ebay, I no longer do so.

My overall conclusions have been: the AMP induction annealer isn't a bad deal if you want something that just works. Building your own can save money, but it's also a PITA, and is still going to cost you $600-800 or more.

I'm currently working on a few other things, but it will probably require that I design my own controller board and software to make them work. I'm also researching a way to make the coils more efficient. But it'll probably be a while until that's ready.
 
#612
Hi there...

No issue. I've purchased an induction annealer locally available anyhow, this is more a "food" for my ADHD mind... things to keep the hands and mind busy...

I will see what I give this a go... and guess I will then do likewise, print the current stl, and then redraw with improvements etc.

got a long long ago at school electronic background so not completely idiot, just close so sure I'll be able to make the bits fit together.

Nice design/build though, best I've seen yet.
G
 
#613
reading the thread it's as if guys are saying the 600Watt PSU is slightly small for the larger calibers and well the 1000Watt is far to big...
what would be goldilocks, 750Watt ? thinking with a slightly slower speed you also have more control (vs the 1000Watt).
Like the idea of one of the builds I saw where the builder added a infrared sensor where the brass sits... when brass present, enable heat, open door, drop, close, drop a case, if case present, repeat.

G
 
#614
Do you remember where you saw that video or thread that talks about the infrared sensor.

Also I just upgraded mine to an 800w power supply and it seems to be working really well, not as fast as a 1000w but this will suffice for now.

georgelza said:
Like the idea of one of the builds I saw where the builder added a infrared sensor where the brass sits... when brass present, enable heat, open door, drop, close, drop a case, if case present, repeat.

G
Click to expand...
 
#615
georgelza said:
reading the thread it's as if guys are saying the 600Watt PSU is slightly small for the larger calibers and well the 1000Watt is far to big...
what would be goldilocks, 750Watt ? thinking with a slightly slower speed you also have more control (vs the 1000Watt).
Like the idea of one of the builds I saw where the builder added a infrared sensor where the brass sits... when brass present, enable heat, open door, drop, close, drop a case, if case present, repeat.

G
Click to expand...
Get the 1000w as the circuit will basically draw what it wants. The board has no throttle and will trip the supply off if you don't have enough ass behind it.
 
#617
Bradv86 said:
Get the 1000w as the circuit will basically draw what it wants. The board has no throttle and will trip the supply off if you don't have enough ass behind it.
Click to expand...
don't think it's if it does not have enough, it's about to much, to fast. you with such a short time t's difficult to control 5% or 10% more or less,

or if you overdo it with 1 seconds on one a 3 second anneal that's 30% case gone where one second on 5-8second is much less damage.

just thinking.

G
 
#618
georgelza said:
don't think it's if it does not have enough, it's about to much, to fast. you with such a short time t's difficult to control 5% or 10% more or less,

or if you overdo it with 1 seconds on one a 3 second anneal that's 30% case gone where one second on 5-8second is much less damage.

just thinking.

G
Click to expand...
This circuit does not just deliver 1,000w from the supply continuously. The current used (and therefore power) varies with how much brass is in your coil, and coil dimensions. An idle coil pulls FAR less than when a large case is in the coil, so with current monitoring you can watch real time what is happening. If you have a 800w supply and a 1000w supply, and nothing else changes, say that setup with a case is drawing 12A at 48V, 576W. You don't magically get a faster anneal time here by having a supply capable of 20A instead of 16.6A (1000w vs 800w unit) because voltage is fixed at 48v. If you want slower anneal times, you need lower VOLTAGE and current will drop with it, but keep in mind these timers are adjustable in 0.1 and even 0.01s intervals. You are going to burn up a couple cases figuring out your times most likely, no question about it.
 
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#620
georgelza said:
so you can impact the anneal time one of 2 ways then...

time in annealer... and/or the voltage fed to circuit which impact anneal time, lower voltage = longer anneal time, same result.

G
Click to expand...

Any change to position of the brass within the coil will also have an effect, so it is very important that the coil and case are consistently in the same spot each time.
 
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#623
You can use infrared sensors as proximity sensors, depending on what kind you use. Reflective sensors vs break beam. Either one would work to detect cases if they were implemented correctly.

I've thought about trying to hack a remote IR thermometer to see if it could be used to measure case temp, but I don't know if they are fast enough.
 
#627
When my coil is active, it is drawing between 13 and 14 Amps. This is going to depend heavily on your coil design, I use a 9-turn 3/4" diameter coil (water cooled of course). My coil is also insulated (thermal sleeve over copper) so the coil turns can be next to each other (increasing inductance).
 
#628
Antonio Moraes said:
What is the average time of annealing for a 308 win cartridge with a 600w 48v psu and 1000w zvs?
Click to expand...
I'd have to measure my coil for my numbers to be really useful, but it's built very close to the dimensions on the MGNZ website. I think I'm around 3.5 or 4 seconds on a 308 case, and around 15A. The current might be more, I remember measuring with a fluke clamp on amp meter when I originally built it, and the reading there didn't match the display. I don't know if it's a scaling issue or what, but I figured it's probably not that important to know the exact current. My power supply is 1000w though, so very possibly I'm using more than 600w when annealing.
Kristian
 
#629
Those zvs boards are notorious for being bad right out of the gate. Also I had a piece of brass that touched my coil once and it basically cooked my zvs board too. Make sure you have space between each wrap and that nothing is touching anything anywhere. Sounds to me like a bad zvs board. But try messing with your coil 1st. I'm using a 36v 600 watt power supply and at its peak I'm pulling 500 watts and 14 amps
 
#631
I am somewhat of a electronics geek and HAM radio guy . I mess with electronic stuff all the time. I am currently working on an antenna array (to bounce a signal off the moon and over to Europe on 144Mhz) Is there anyone willing to just build this thing for me if I pay ya and send ya the parts? I have too many irons in the fire right now. I bought all the stuff last year and its still sitting in the Amazon packages not assembled. I just don't have time to do it working two jobs and raising kids. send me a private message if you build one and want to build another one for some cash.
 
#632
Antonio Moraes said:
Thanks Guys! I am now at 48v and pulling 8A. I get about 6 seconds to make a 308win cartridge glow red. I think I might be able to work with that for now. Thanks alot for your answers.
Click to expand...

It also can depend on what brand of brass. In 6.5 Creedmoor, Lapua takes about 50% longer than Hornady for me. Thickness in the shoulder and neck is different, I imagine.
 
#633
7mm-08 Freak said:
I am somewhat of a electronics geek and HAM radio guy . I mess with electronic stuff all the time. I am currently working on an antenna array (to bounce a signal off the moon and over to Europe on 144Mhz) Is there anyone willing to just build this thing for me if I pay ya and send ya the parts? I have too many irons in the fire right now. I bought all the stuff last year and its still sitting in the Amazon packages not assembled. I just don't have time to do it working two jobs and raising kids. send me a private message if you build one and want to build another one for some cash.
Click to expand...

Eh, maybe, but it would depend on the timeline, fee, and what parts you've got. PM me.
 
#634
TSloper said:
Over the last couple of days I put together an induction annealer setup. All components minus the coil were sourced from Amazon. I turned the coil myself from solid copper wire to ensure proper inductance and distance to the case. The power supply is 24V/15A. Switching frequency of the induction coil is ~120 kHz. The coil supplied with the ZVS unit was far too large in diameter and would not sufficiently heat the brass with the 24V/15A supply. Proper coil sizing is key. I have not found a need for any additional cooling. The PCB and components are barely getting warm.

The 1/8" rod under the coil is the release mechanism to allow the case to drop. I am contemplating adding a push/pull solenoid to automate the drop at the end of the cycle but at my processing rate it isn't necessary.

Using 750F Tempilaq as an indicator my run time for a .223 case is 3.4 seconds. A tenth of a second can make a significant difference. The picture showing both cases is only a delta of 0.2 seconds. A run time of just 7.5 seconds will have the brass glowing red hot as seen in the pic. That is far too hot for annealing but I provided the pic to illustrate that it doesn't take long to over anneal. Average power consumption during a cycle with the current setup is ~260W. With a different power supply and additional cooling the system can run to 1000W.

This is a sub $100 build and the results are consistent and repeatable.

Tim
Click to expand...
Hello, I just stumbled upon your annealer build. Very nice. Now that you have had a couple of years to use it, what components would you change if one was building this now? Thanks.
 
#636
So, since a couple of people here and elsewhere have asked me about the work coil, and how many turns they should use, etc... I have made a video that covers how to determine what your work coil needs to be. You have to take into account several factors, but I've simplified it for the direct application to these types of heaters. You want to shoot for something that resonates in your circuit somewhere between 75khz-150khz. Using your capacitor bank and the resonant frequency formula, you can then set a range for the inductance you need. With this and the size of brass you want to be able to anneal, you can then use a coil calculator to figure out how many turns your coil needs. Power and heat generated will also factor into the coil size, since you'll want to use 3/16 or 1/4 inch copper tubing, and that will impact the inductance of your coil.

The calculator will give you a ballpark estimate of the inductance of a coil based on its size and number of layers/turns. At that point, you'll have the design laid out. You'll need to get a core with the right dimensions for winding, and then just wind the correct number of turns/layers. I am going to make a second video where I demonstrate a fairly reliable method to make a good coil without collapsing the tubing. I'll probably have that up in a day or two. The trick is to use regular table salt with good crimped ends, and then use a fitting adapter on a hose bib on your house. It'll dissolve and push the salt out pretty quickly. Ice, sand, and the other methods I've tried haven't been nearly as easy, quick, or reliable.

 
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#637
The_Steward said:
So, since a couple of people here and elsewhere have asked me about the work coil, and how many turns they should use, etc... I have made a video that covers how to determine what your work coil needs to be. You have to take into account several factors, but I've simplified it for the direct application to these types of heaters. You want to shoot for something that resonates in your circuit somewhere between 75khz-150khz. Using your capacitor bank and the resonant frequency formula, you can then set a range for the inductance you need. With this and the size of brass you want to be able to anneal, you can then use a coil calculator to figure out how many turns your coil needs. Power and heat generated will also factor into the coil size, since you'll want to use 3/16 or 1/4 inch copper tubing, and that will impact the inductance of your coil.

The calculator will give you a ballpark estimate of the inductance of a coil based on its size and number of layers/turns. At that point, you'll have the design laid out. You'll need to get a core with the right dimensions for winding, and then just wind the correct number of turns/layers. I am going to make a second video where I demonstrate a fairly reliable method to make a good coil without collapsing the tubing. I'll probably have that up in a day or two. The trick is to use regular table salt with good crimped ends, and then use a fitting adapter on a hose bib on your house. It'll dissolve and push the salt out pretty quickly. Ice, sand, and the other methods I've tried haven't been nearly as easy, quick, or reliable.

Click to expand...



And here's the second part, on actually making the coil.
 
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#638
Another option is sugar, it dissolves easily as well. Also, when I made mine, I wrapped it with fiberglass sheathing on it, but since it shredded badly, I picked the pieces out of the coil. I was left with a coil that looks almost exactly like yours and the sheathing gave me excellent spacing between all the inner and outer layers of tubing.

Another thing, as a variation on the the dollar bill test between a barrel and stock, take a piece of heavy duty thread or fine string and place a loop around one of the legs of the coil and then slide it around the coils looking for any places where the thread binds. If you don't get any binding, then your spacing is good throughout the coil with no shorts.
 
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#639
hdmunger said:
Another option is sugar, it dissolves easily as well. Also, when I made mine, I wrapped it with fiberglass sheathing on it, but since it shredded badly, I picked the pieces out of the coil. I was left with a coil that looks almost exactly like yours and the sheathing gave me excellent spacing between all the inner and outer layers of tubing.

Another thing, as a variation the the dollar bill test between a barrel and stock, take a piece of heavy duty thread or fine string and place a loop around one of the legs of the coil and then slide it around the coils looking for any places where the thread binds. If you don't get any binding, then your spacing is good throughout the coil with no shorts.
Click to expand...
I thought about mentioning using the fiberglass sleeve and then removing as an option, but I figure it might be an extra expense that is unnecessary. Plus, I'm sure you're now well aware of it's effect on your fingers and skin. LOL. It's a good option though.
 
#640
The_Steward said:
I thought about mentioning using the fiberglass sleeve and then removing as an option, but I figure it might be an extra expense that is unnecessary. Plus, I'm sure you're now well aware of it's effect on your fingers and skin. LOL. It's a good option though.
Click to expand...
I put a fiberglass sleeve on my coil after I wound it, didn't want to accidently short out the coil with a cartridge or if I bent something. Seems to work good so far.
Kristian
 
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#641
turbo_bird said:
I put a fiberglass sleeve on my coil after I wound it, didn't want to accidently short out the coil with a cartridge or if I bent something. Seems to work good so far.
Kristian
Click to expand...
I used knitted basalt sleeve on mine, I just slid it onto the tube before winding it. It doesn't seem to have the itching problems of fibreglass and is supposed to take 650 degrees C.
 
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#642
The_Steward said:
So, since a couple of people here and elsewhere have asked me about the work coil, and how many turns they should use, etc... I have made a video that covers how to determine what your work coil needs to be. You have to take into account several factors, but I've simplified it for the direct application to these types of heaters. You want to shoot for something that resonates in your circuit somewhere between 75khz-150khz. Using your capacitor bank and the resonant frequency formula, you can then set a range for the inductance you need. With this and the size of brass you want to be able to anneal, you can then use a coil calculator to figure out how many turns your coil needs. Power and heat generated will also factor into the coil size, since you'll want to use 3/16 or 1/4 inch copper tubing, and that will impact the inductance of your coil.

The calculator will give you a ballpark estimate of the inductance of a coil based on its size and number of layers/turns. At that point, you'll have the design laid out. You'll need to get a core with the right dimensions for winding, and then just wind the correct number of turns/layers. I am going to make a second video where I demonstrate a fairly reliable method to make a good coil without collapsing the tubing. I'll probably have that up in a day or two. The trick is to use regular table salt with good crimped ends, and then use a fitting adapter on a hose bib on your house. It'll dissolve and push the salt out pretty quickly. Ice, sand, and the other methods I've tried haven't been nearly as easy, quick, or reliable.

Click to expand...

So I used 1/8" copper tubing and it has an OD of 5/32". It fits perfectly inside 1/4" tubing. I soldered it in so I could find fittings easier. Just an option that worked for me. So at my zvs board on it's 1/4". I couldn't find any fittings locally smaller than a 1/4".
 
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#643
turbo_bird said:
I put a fiberglass sleeve on my coil after I wound it, didn't want to accidently short out the coil with a cartridge or if I bent something. Seems to work good so far.
Kristian
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that would work with tighter wound coils, espectially dual layer ones, but it's super useful if it works. I have a fiberglass sleeve on my current work coil, but for the one in the video, I wanted to have everything visible and I'm probably going to try some other insulating techniques with it.

One is to just coat it with an insulating varnish or maybe ceramic paint after winding. Haven't tested those methods yet though, so YMMV.
 
#645
Antonio Moraes said:
Hey! Just a piece of advise, my SSR40A locked on closed state and over heated my whole system. Now I have a emergency switch between the 48v and psu and I have set a Led with a 3k resistor on the panel to see if there is power on ZVS.
Click to expand...
100%. You need to have a disconnect for the power. I run two separate PSUs so I can leave the big one off while I test the drop/feed system, etc.
 
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#646
Hello, very very interesting post.
I found this very small 12/24 volts 1000w induction heater on Aliexpress.
Do you think that's enough to try annealing 308 cases?
I've seen you can turn a screwdriver fiery red.
There are also more powerful models like the one in the original post but I would try starting from the bottom.
I don't know if I can put the links of this and of the various models I've found.
12898086-E2D9-461C-A98E-DA81A28636C4.jpeg
 

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#647
That one looks like the 2 I got off of Amazon a few weeks ago. That one that I got barely got some bailing wire hot and one of them burnt out with an 1/8 drill bit inserted in it. Not worth trying to save $ with those.
Go with the ones already shown in this thread.
Screenshot_20230207-060926_Amazon Shopping.jpg
 
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#648
Teppa82 said:
Hello, very very interesting post.
I found this very small 12/24 volts 1000w induction heater on Aliexpress.
Do you think that's enough to try annealing 308 cases?
I've seen you can turn a screwdriver fiery red.
There are also more powerful models like the one in the original post but I would try starting from the bottom.
I don't know if I can put the links of this and of the various models I've found.View attachment 8069129
Click to expand...

No chance you're putting 1kw through that at 12 or 24 volts.


I wouldn't get anything smaller than the models that have 6 big capacitors on them. Those I know will work, but they will need proper cooling.
 
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#649
Thank you very much The_Steward
In fact, after reading the various posts I decided to focus on one of these 2 (photos attached)
One has 6 capacitors of 0.3, the other has 7
Both with cooling fans for the circuit.

One question is this, can I start from the terminals of the circuit with an electric wire and then get to the empty tube of the spiral?
Or does the tube have to be anchored to the clamps marked in the photo?
Otherwise it is impossible for me to pass the liquid inside the tube given how this circuit is made.

Or the smaller one with 6 capacitors which is easier having the free terminals behind.

I should also understand how to do the calculations described in your video of post n° 637.
Because being in English I missed some quite fundamental steps to calculate the coils
is it possible to have the excel table you show in the video?
 

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#650
Either of those should work, and since the coil connectors are attached to the circuit board, they can probably be attached from the bottom of the circuit board by reversing the hardware...this should keep you clear of the top side components (a short standoff for each connection will give you even more clearance).

For example:

Induction heater circuit (with bottom connections).jpg

ZVS bottom coil mounts.jpg
 
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