Hornady brass explosion

[Pilotscrappy]

Presume you did not measure speed while firing these rounds?

I have a cheapo caldwell chrono, but in this particular day I did not have it out with me when the case separation happened.

I am going to remove the rifle from my chassis and have it inspected.

I am also going to scrub the carbon ring out.
I did finally buy some lapua brass to try out, but in the meantime I chucked about 140 pieces of brass that were the same lot as the cases that separated. (which I just processed last week, not amused at that lol)
I de cap, tumble in corncob, lube, resize, run mandrel down necks to set neck tension, re tumble in corncob, trim, then run across my case prep xpress chamfer deburr, uniform primer pocket and brush necks.

Soo all that work last week down the tube haha oh well I still have 50 pieces of once fired I will get prepped this week.
Assuming all is well with my gun I'll still be able to do my local turkey shoot this Saturday and try to win a turkey????

 

[NamibHunter]

I have recived virgin brass that was not trimmed or trimmed properly.
At least 2 brands.

I run virgin brass through my entire process including a brief tumble to deposit some wax on the case.

Evidently the phrase (fully prepped) used by manufacturers is subjective.

If the brass is sized gtg then it doesn't work it any if not it needed it.

Yep, I have seen very short brass (5-6 thou under trim length) from Lapua recently (factory Berger ammo). Have also seen a batch of virgin brass from Lapua that varied 20 thou, and then you are forced to trim them all shorter than you want for consistency. Which provides a golden opportunity for the dreaded carbon ring to form....

Have read somewhere that people measure their chambers (and of course there is yet another Sinclair tool for that), and then let their brass grow until there is like 5 thou safety margin left over, often this is 15 thou or more beyond book max length. Does this really work to avoid carbon rings?

Never tried it and a little nervous about it.

 

[Kadams1563]

My Lapua brass has been fired anywhere from 5-7 times. Never had to trim them. They just don’t grow. They started off 6 thousands under minimum trim length and haven’t reached even midway maximum trim length yet.

I wanted to get to 1.915 but don’t see like I’m going too.

 

[Tokay444]

What’s wrong with Hornady brass?

I've always had to pitch it after the 3rd reloading to avoid things like the OP, and split shoulders. I don't even bother anymore. I'm up to 7 reloading on my Alpha with not even a hiccup.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

Yep, I have seen very short brass (5-6 thou under trim length) from Lapua recently (factory Berger ammo). Have also seen a batch of virgin brass from Lapua that varied 20 thou, and then you are forced to trim them all shorter than you want for consistency. Which provides a golden opportunity for the dreaded carbon ring to form....

Have read somehwre that people measure their chambers (and of course there is yet another tool for that), and then let their brass grow until there is like 5 thou safety margin left over, often this is 15 thou or more beyond book trim length. Does this really work to avoid carbon rings?

Never tried it amd a little nervous about it.

I actually have that little tool from Sinclair to measure your chamber and what you should trim it. It's pretty handy, I'll have to go check. My. Notes when I get home, but I belive I trim to 1.913

 

[Snuby642]

IMHO NOOOOOOOO.
as previously posted the excess neck lenght could get pinched and cause presure problems.

I cant prove it but belive some manufacturers bag cull and setup lots of brass without much qc at all.

Some like the holy grail of brass have much better qc (lapua).
Some tell you up front to size or neck size then trim.

I have gotten a lot of long necks,
Short normally in the shoulder and other inconsistent brass to the point.

I consider it
( UNFIRED ANNEALED RANGE BRASS )
and treat it like that. It all gets the full treatment for my consistency .
I have quit receiving qc and go strait to processing with less tumbling normally no primer pocket prep.

Anal maybe but removes error chance and if the brass is perfect or slightly short shouldered then the brass has not technically been (worked).

You get a lot of oal stretch on the first shot, trim length is normally 0.010 short of max case lenght. I get 0.007 oal case growth first fired most time.

 

[Snuby642]

I need to add one thing on my observations.
None of my barrels are custom reamed all are set to saami specs.

 

[shoot4fun]

Im using the D400 comparator insert.

Hornady says the 6.5 Creed is dead in the middle of the C & D comparators. Either will work but may be why your numbers differ.
@Pilotscrappy I see the photo showing you measuring a fired case. Do you decap before measure? Just wondering and it may make no difference in your case. I've been shooting only Hornady 6.5 and 6 MM Creed brass since their inception and had nary an issue. Multiple reloads on most of it and still performs well. I did lose a few primer pockets to a heavy hand on the powder throws but that's on me.
Now, please answer a couple questions for me.
Was this brass from firing factory loaded ammo? If so, did you measure a round before to see just where the shoulder falls on it? Could have been a big stretch there too.
Did you, by chance, anneal this brass? Honestly, this same type issue will pop up if you got too much heat on the case body too far down.

 

[NamibHunter]

I have a cheapo caldwell chrono, but in this particular day I did not have it out with me when the case separation happened.

I am going to remove the rifle from my chassis and have it inspected.

I am also going to scrub the carbon ring out.
I did finally buy some lapua brass to try out, but in the meantime I chucked about 140 pieces of brass that were the same lot as the cases that separated. (which I just processed last week, not amused at that lol)
I de cap, tumble in corncob, lube, resize, run mandrel down necks to set neck tension, re tumble in corncob, trim, then run across my case prep xpress chamfer deburr, uniform primer pocket and brush necks.

Soo all that work last week down the tube haha oh well I still have 50 pieces of once fired I will get prepped this week.
Assuming all is well with my gun I'll still be able to do my local turkey shoot this Saturday and try to win a turkey????

I think you are covering all the bases. Should work out ok now.

 

[NamibHunter]

My Lapua brass has been fired anywhere from 5-7 times. Never had to trim them. They just don’t grow. They started off 6 thousands under minimum trim length and haven’t reached even midway maximum trim length yet.

I wanted to get to 1.915 but don’t see like I’m going too.

Had the exact same experience with Lapua. They just refused to grow. Weird! At one point i cut back and would just sample 10 or so and measure them, and still nothing moved. Then one day i got two speed outliers on the LabRadar (50 fps too fast), and decided to measured case length for all of them. Around 95% were still way short but two of them had grown a little beyond max length. That was a scare.

So now i am back to measuring all of them every time, and trimming all of them short every time. Not waiting or hoping for them to grow to trim length anymore. Boring as heck, as almost none of them move. A little sliver of brass is cut off on one side of the neck only. Feels like a waste of time...

Except - one or two cases do actually get longer...

Very easy to miss.

 

[bbyars]

I run 42.8 gr 4350 in mine and around 5 firings they are toast. Im gonna finish running the brass i do have switch to something else. peterson or alpha

 

[Kadams1563]

I run 42.8 gr 4350 in mine and around 5 firings they are toast. Im gonna finish running the brass i do have switch to something else. peterson or alpha

I was running 41.8-42.2 and they were toast on the third firing. Primers would fall out in the reloading box and then in the action.

CORRECTION: after thinking about it they were on the 4th-5th firing. New factory loading, then load development, then final shots for 2 times.

 

[bbyars]

I was running 41.8-42.2 and they were toast on the third firing. Primers would fall out in the reloading box and then in the action.

Yeah about the only good thing about hornady brass is its easy to find and for the most part cheap.

 

[NamibHunter]

I was running 41.8-42.2 and they were toast on the third firing. Primers would fall out in the reloading box and then in the action.

Interesting. I intentionally do not run a hot load, as i want the barrel and brass to have longer life. Got 5 reloads with Hornady (primer pockets opened up). Nosler got 8-12 (primer pockets), Lapua got 24x and had more life left in them (primer pockets were still fairly tight), but necks were getting thin/thinner.

Btw: For calibers where the primer pocket is the typical failure mechanism (not holding the primer anymore), ANY good SRP brass will outlive LRP brass by 3-5 times. More brass in the web, so much stronger. Lapua sells a good product, but so does Alpha and several others who make SRP brass. [SRP brass also has a few disadvantages: Large firing pin/small primer combo can lead to pierced primers, and the firing pin might need to be bushed; and you will need new decapping rods.] If Hornady started making SRP brass (unlikely, i guess), their brass life will almost certainly go way up.

I cut three 24x fired Lapua cases open with a Dremel tool, and saw no stretching or thinning close to the web, retired them out of an abundance of caution. See pic below.

OP, you may want to do the same for 2 or 3 once fired (fire formed) Hornady cases.

That is 4 cents per reload in terms of the cost of replacement Lapua brass... Premium SRP brass is actually worth paying extra for. Saves you money in the long run. Expect Alpha and Peterson will be similar.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

Size a piece of brass and see if it pushed your shoulder back...It shouldn't. Then check if it squeezed the neck down to accept a bullet. If it did great your done size the rest of your once fired brass and go shoot again.

So I'm working on my once fired hornady brass and am following this advice.

I measure all the once fired brass and it was pretty consistent at 1.530 on my headspace Comperator on the calipers.

I had to screw die down a little bit more than you suggested cuz at first it was pushing the shoulder forward. I have it set now where to shoulder is zeroing out at 1.530 when I resize.

For shit and giggle I measure overall length before and after sizing and when I'm sizing now it's growing (the neck?) about 6 thou.

Does that seem excessive or normal?

So for instance overall length before resize die is 1.914 and after resize its 1.920.

Just wanna make sure this is all normal and I will just trim the brass now to get back down

 

[308pirate]

Mine is the same axiom/Spencer barrel.

Weird our chambers are so far off. My barrel just says "match grade" on the side.

Bro that's not a big difference. Doesn't matter what someone else's same exact rifle's chamber dimensions are.

 

[308pirate]

So I'm working on my once fired hornady brass and am following this advice.

I measure all the once fired brass and it was pretty consistent at 1.530 on my headspace Comperator on the calipers.

I had to screw die down a little bit more than you suggested cuz at first it was pushing the shoulder forward. I have it set now where to shoulder is zeroing out at 1.530 when I resize.

For shit and giggle I measure overall length before and after sizing and when I'm sizing now it's growing (the neck?) about 6 thou.

Does that seem excessive or normal?

So for instance overall length before resize die is 1.914 and after resize its 1.920.

Just wanna make sure this is all normal and I will just trim the brass now to get back down

Neck growth is normal. .006" growth in one resizing cycle is much more than I'm used to seeing

 

[Pilotscrappy]

Neck growth is normal. .006" growth in one resizing cycle is much more than I'm used to seeing

I thought it seemed excessive also, i just wanna make sure I'm not doing something wrong cuz now I'm second guessing my whole process lol. But honestly with everything I have been doing /reading I don't see where I can really be making a mistake.

 

[spife7980]

If that’s what the die and brass combination is giving you and you think you did your part correctly then that’s just what it is. Just have to roll with it. The growth will slow down

 

[MtnCreek]

If a known load starts showing excessive pressure (or recoil), first thing you should do is stop shooting it till you figure out why. Don't just say 'well that was odd' and shoot again.

Easiest way to check for a pinched in bullet is to slide a bullet into the fired (not resized) case that showed excessive pressure. If a bullet doesn't slide in freely, the bullet is pinched in the neck.

Case neck too thick (not likely with horn brass).
Case neck too long.
Obstruction in the chamber (carbon ring or other).

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Or stick a case in and bore scope it.

 

[PATCO]

This thread is a microcosm of the reloading community. There is so much info good and bad out there, but there are no referees. I see so many new reloaders on forums without a clue asking for advice to help them. When I see the answers, I am sometimes horrified and sometimes amused. Not all is good or bad, but who decides? The answers to this original question of what was causing head separation fit into this observation. It shows just how many ideas there are about the use of comparators, headspace gauges, shoulder bump and chamber gauging. I see that even some of the writers who are familiar wit AANSI do not read the cartridge and chamber drawings' tolerances and that each must be considered for cumulative error for each gun. Manufacturers work within those tolerences and the reloader must adapt to keep the combination suitable for his use. There should be a source for learning correct reloading procedures required by all reloaders. I am usually against regulation, but in the case of operations that may endanger life and limb, I'm for it. Most states require basic hunter ed courses and only the old timers object. The NRA needs to get onto providing a basic qualification course that would give new reloaders the basics of safe reloading and advanced courses as new techniques are used. I would take it to review and find that even I had some wrong ideas. Jawboning about which scope or trigger or any other accessory is one thing, but reloading is a dangerous part of shooting. The danger here depends on so many factors unknown to many and especially newbys. I know that I usually think I am right, but I have found that even I can be wrong occasionally.

 

[Huskydriver]

So I'm working on my once fired hornady brass and am following this advice.

I measure all the once fired brass and it was pretty consistent at 1.530 on my headspace Comperator on the calipers.

I had to screw die down a little bit more than you suggested cuz at first it was pushing the shoulder forward. I have it set now where to shoulder is zeroing out at 1.530 when I resize.

For shit and giggle I measure overall length before and after sizing and when I'm sizing now it's growing (the neck?) about 6 thou.

Does that seem excessive or normal?

So for instance overall length before resize die is 1.914 and after resize its 1.920.

Just wanna make sure this is all normal and I will just trim the brass now to get back down

.006 growth in total length is totally normal after sizing you are on the right track

 

[PATCO]

Another question guys, I just ran the bore scope down my chamber and it appears i have a carbon ring in their. It doesnt look like its out of control yet but there is defintely a ring forming inside. Could this have possibly casued the brass to fail? Weird thing is if the carbon ring did cause a huge pressure spike wouldnt it have blown the primer out or at least showed signs on the primer or pressure?
Here are some pics of the chamber i just scoped.View attachment 7185752View attachment 7185753View attachment 7185754View attachment 7185755

I would suggest that you keep your chamber clean. Cleaning the barrel does not necessarily clean the chamber. Use an appropriate chamber brush. There will always be some carbon leak around the neck to some extent.

 

[Huskydriver]

This thread is a microcosm of the reloading community. There is so much info good and bad out there, but there are no referees. I see so many new reloaders on forums without a clue asking for advice to help them. When I see the answers, I am sometimes horrified and sometimes amused. Not all is good or bad, but who decides? The answers to this original question of what was causing head separation fit into this observation. It shows just how many ideas there are about the use of comparators, headspace gauges, shoulder bump and chamber gauging. I see that even some of the writers who are familiar wit AANSI do not read the cartridge and chamber drawings' tolerances and that each must be considered for cumulative error for each gun. Manufacturers work within those tolerences and the reloader must adapt to keep the combination suitable for his use. There should be a source for learning correct reloading procedures required by all reloaders. I am usually against regulation, but in the case of operations that may endanger life and limb, I'm for it. Most states require basic hunter ed courses and only the old timers object. The NRA needs to get onto providing a basic qualification course that would give new reloaders the basics of safe reloading and advanced courses as new techniques are used. I would take it to review and find that even I had some wrong ideas. Jawboning about which scope or trigger or any other accessory is one thing, but reloading is a dangerous part of shooting. The danger here depends on so many factors unknown to many and especially newbys. I know that I usually think I am right, but I have found that even I can be wrong occasionally.

Really? Your answer is some form of government regulation and classes from the NRA? Wtf is this 1967.... where have you been the last 20 years. the only thing the NRA is good for us buying themselves giant mansions on golf course property and private jet rides.


Reloading obviously has its dangers hence the warnings at the beginning of every piece of reloading equipment we do it at our own risk. Scared? Don't reload. Scared of guns don't own one. Scared of overdosing on meth, don't smoke it...

 

[PATCO]

Really? Your answer is some form of government regulation and classes from the NRA? Wtf is this 1967.... where have you been the last 20 years. the only thing the NRA is good for us buying themselves giant mansions on golf course property and private jet rides.


Reloading obviously has its dangers hence the warnings at the beginning of every piece of reloading equipment we do it at our own risk. Scared? Don't reload. Scared of guns don't own one. Scared of overdosing on meth, don't smoke it...

I guess I'm just casting myself in the role of Captain Quint in Jaws as me smiles at the skiff full of would be shark hunters and muses, "They're all gonna die, arh." I was in Viet Nam in 1967, since then I have been reloading and gunsmithing. I have seen reloading go from dipper measures to high accuracy digital scales and marvelous powders. Yes, someone does need to train and certify reloaders. As far as your opinion of the NRA, jump on em and make them tow your line. That's your line , mine is safe shooting. Have you ever witnessed a reload Kaboom? That is why regulation is needed. The bystanders didn't know they should be brave. The reloader probably didn't either. By the way, where did you get the "Poison Ivy"?

 

[Kadams1563]

I guess I'm just casting myself in the role of Captain Quint in Jaws as me smiles at the skiff full of would be shark hunters and muses, "They're all gonna die, arh." I was in Viet Nam in 1967, since then I have been reloading and gunsmithing. I have seen reloading go from dipper measures to high accuracy digital scales and marvelous powders. Yes, someone does need to train and certify reloaders. As far as your opinion of the NRA, jump on em and make them tow your line. That's your line , mine is safe shooting. Have you ever witnessed a reload Kaboom? That is why regulation is needed. The bystanders didn't know they should be brave. The reloader probably didn't either. By the way, where did you get the "Poison Ivy"?

They should also regulate who’s allowed to type on a keyboard. Should possibly teach people to use commas and break up paragraphs so we can actually read that mess. Wait...they do.

 

[Snuby642]

We don't have a need for some kind of certification to load for ourselves.

In fact you can kiss my ass for sugesting it.

 

[Huskydriver]

I guess I'm just casting myself in the role of Captain Quint in Jaws as me smiles at the skiff full of would be shark hunters and muses, "They're all gonna die, arh." I was in Viet Nam in 1967, since then I have been reloading and gunsmithing. I have seen reloading go from dipper measures to high accuracy digital scales and marvelous powders. Yes, someone does need to train and certify reloaders. As far as your opinion of the NRA, jump on em and make them tow your line. That's your line , mine is safe shooting. Have you ever witnessed a reload Kaboom? That is why regulation is needed. The bystanders didn't know they should be brave. The reloader probably didn't either. By the way, where did you get the "Poison Ivy"?

Afghanistan.

 

[PATCO]

They should also regulate who’s allowed to type on a keyboard. Should possibly teach people to use commas and break up paragraphs so we can actually read that mess. Wait...they do.

Seems like I read where Karl Marx said that very thing.

 

[PATCO]

We don't have a need for some kind of certification to load for ourselves.

In fact you can kiss my ass for sugesting it.

Just like a liberal. They can only lash out with obscenities when confronted with a legitimate discussion.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Suggest Government regulations. That's one way to derail a thread.

 

[PATCO]

Suggest Government regulations. That's one way to derail a thread.

I guess free discussion will stop a liberal every time. There are some things that need regulating and some that don't. Liberal trolls will always jump in and try to stop free debate because they are the only authority and if they don't like it they go to rule number one: Hurl obscenites, #2 berate and belittle, #3 if all else fails call me some kind of phoebe or racist. I guess I have #3 coming since no one wants to discuss this in a rational manner. I'm going to lunch now since I guess this is the end of my thread.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I guess free discussion will stop a liberal every time. There are some things that need regulating and some that don't. Liberal trolls will always jump in and try to stop free debate because they are the only authority and if they don't like it they go to rule number one: Hurl obscenites, #2 berate and belittle, #3 if all else fails call me some kind of phoebe or racist. I guess I have #3 coming since no one wants to discuss this in a rational manner. I'm going to lunch now since I guess this is the end of my thread.

I would suggest the bear pit to find a meaningful discussion on the subject of government regulating reloaders. Or at least a little more entertaining one.

 

[308pirate]

There should be a source for learning correct reloading procedures required by all reloaders.

There is. It's called a reloading manual. People need to get the fuck off the internet and actually read and think to be successful at it.

Most states require basic hunter ed courses and only the old timers object. The NRA needs to get onto providing a basic qualification course that would give new reloaders the basics of safe reloading and advanced courses as new techniques are used.

Hunter safety, like government ccw training, is a placebo joke.

I know that I usually think I am right, but I have found that even I can be wrong occasionally.

You're definitely wrong.

 

[308pirate]

Just like a liberal. They can only lash out with obscenities when confronted with a legitimate discussion.

This isn't a legitimate discussion. See that's where you're wrong again.

 

[Snuby642]

Suggest more government interference in our sport?
That is about as liberal as it gets.

I have a shelf full of updated reloading manuals from well known sources, some probably in print longer than you
Have been around.

I have online reloading sources direct from manufacturers.

I have online tutorials direct from manufacturers .

And I have very good help from the hide, especially people like @spife7980 .

Nothing our government can do but f that up, and further revenue from us.

You haven't read enough posts to realize just how funny calling me a liberal is.

LMAO

 

[PATCO]

Suggest more government interference in our sport?
That is about as liberal as it gets.

I have a shelf full of updated reloading manuals from well known sources, some probably in print longer than you
Have been around.

I have online reloading sources direct from manufacturers.

I have online tutorials direct from manufacturers .

And I have very good help from the hide, especially people like @spife7980 .

Nothing our government can do but f that up, and further revenue from us.

You haven't read enough posts to realize just how funny calling me a liberal is.

LMAO

You walk and talk like a duck when it is contra to your beliefs. You suggest that those who don't agree with you or you group are wrong and ridicule with obscenities as a remedy. That defines a liberal. You may have used all of these info sources, but that is strictly your decision. As I stated before, there are those who don't know and don't know where to go for good info without getting the usual forum opinions on every end of the spectrum. If you read where I said there should be a fact check referee, you know that I want the right info out there. Not everyone knows spife7980. 308 pirate agrees with me that people should get off the internet for info and read reload manuals and to get the poop and use their brains. Remember you guys jumped on me for my belief in safety and tried to bully me just like liberal trolls

 

[ColdSteel260]

What’s wrong with Hornady brass?

Absolutely nothing.
Weight sort it if you're looking for something special.

Brass wears out, shit happens.
This even happens to Alpha brass if it gets overworked.

 

[NamibHunter]

You walk and talk like a duck when it is contra to your beliefs. You suggest that those who don't agree with you or you group are wrong and ridicule with obscenities as a remedy. That defines a liberal. You may have used all of these info sources, but that is strictly your decision. As I stated before, there are those who don't know and don't know where to go for good info without getting the usual forum opinions on every end of the spectrum. If you read where I said there should be a fact check referee, you know that I want the right info out there. Not everyone knows spife7980. 308 pirate agrees with me that people should get off the internet for info and read reload manuals and to get the poop and use their brains. Remember you guys jumped on me for my belief in safety and tried to bully me just like liberal trolls

Suggest a new thread be started on the regulation topic.

Let’s please not derail this thread any further. The OP had/possibly still has a real problem, and came here for help. So let’s all concentrate on helping him.

If you disagree with any advice provided here, please do say so, and say why, but be respectful.

 

[NamibHunter]

OP: Once you have removed that (minor looking) carbon ring, perhaps bore scope it again, and then post a photo.

Will be educational for newbies who don’t know what to look for, or how to remove it.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

OP: Once you have removed that (minor looking) carbon ring, perhaps bore scope it again, and then post a photo.

Will be educational for newbies who don’t know what to look for, or how to remove it.

Will do.

Im almost wondering if that ring did cause some pressure issues.

A few of the rounds that I fired, I could not drop a bullet in the neck. Most of them I could but there was a few that would not easily accept a bullet.

My boretech products should be arriving Friday and I will get that chamber scrubbed out and post some pics.

 

[Brux]

OP, When you deprime do you pull the press arm all the way down or just enough to pop a primer out? If your pulling it all the way down you are resizing the case and getting a false measurement.

 

[Snuby642]

With a universal ?

 

[ColdSteel260]

Smoke a carbon ring? JB bore paste. A little scrubbing cleans up good.

 

[Pilotscrappy]

OP, When you deprime do you pull the press arm all the way down or just enough to pop a primer out? If your pulling it all the way down you are resizing the case and getting a false measurement.

I'm using a decap die, I resize with the expander ball removed, then I use a mandrel to set neck tension

 

[supercorndogs]

You walk and talk like a duck when it is contra to your beliefs. You suggest that those who don't agree with you or you group are wrong and ridicule with obscenities as a remedy. That defines a liberal. You may have used all of these info sources, but that is strictly your decision. As I stated before, there are those who don't know and don't know where to go for good info without getting the usual forum opinions on every end of the spectrum. If you read where I said there should be a fact check referee, you know that I want the right info out there. Not everyone knows spife7980. 308 pirate agrees with me that people should get off the internet for info and read reload manuals and to get the poop and use their brains. Remember you guys jumped on me for my belief in safety and tried to bully me just like liberal trolls

No, people jumped on you because it was a stupid ass idea. People jumped on you because they believe in personal responsibility and don't think the government is the answer to every problem. People jumped on you because you are high jacking a thread with off subject drivel. People jumped on you because we can smell your brand of trolling Garandman.

 

[918v]

I guess free discussion will stop a liberal every time. There are some things that need regulating and some that don't. Liberal trolls will always jump in and try to stop free debate because they are the only authority and if they don't like it they go to rule number one: Hurl obscenites, #2 berate and belittle, #3 if all else fails call me some kind of phoebe or racist. I guess I have #3 coming since no one wants to discuss this in a rational manner. I'm going to lunch now since I guess this is the end of my thread.

Go talk politics somewhere else. We don’t need Democrat appointees teaching anyone to do anything.

 

[ColdSteel260]

Go talk politics somewhere else. We don’t need Democrat appointees teaching anyone to do anything.

"

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

@Pilotscrappy let us know when you figure it out.