How long do I have to wait for a quality manufacturer to make me a lightweight factory takedown rifle?

[Greg Langelius *]

Takedown, Schmakedown...

An AR is a takedown, two pins and it's about as short as your takedown bolt rifle.

Lots to choose from, AR's provide an immediate followup shot, there are some both lighter and less expensive than the Rem CSR, and accuracy is not that hard to find in AR's.

IMHO, most chassis rifles are just trying to do what the AR does, but getting it done slower; they look like a Kluge to me.

Just sayin'...

Fulton, Stag.

Greg

 

[300ATT]

True ... but now try to switch an AR from .223 to 6,5 creed to.300 WM not to mention .338LM ... I guess you just buy four of them ...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Very good questions, and I expect there's some room in the middle to find some answers; but then again, these questions were not part of the OP, either.

I was hoping the Olympic Arms convertible would thrive, but they have internal problems. I hope someone else can make the concept come to fruition if they can't.

Actually, I hope someone influential with JP might get to read this topic.

Greg

 

[clubsportmark]

PSE Composite stocks were going to make a stock for the Blaser R8. If they do / did that, would it make the R8 more appealing for you?

 

[Fig]

It's like talking to defensive teenagers.

I’m not defensive. It just sounds like you’re writing their marketing spiel because you’re a fan-boy. Toolless is nice, but modular/milticaliber is hardly unique, and ambi is not exactly up-armoring HMMWV’s or designing an MRAP...which is what the slogan brought to mind.

I think they shot themselves in the foot with the name. ‘Nemesis” is ok for a missile system, but for small arms it sounds like the target market is teenage mall ninjas.

Most OAF units can open-purchase the gear they need independent of procurement procedure. Sounds sort of excusey to say their being held down by Big Arms. If they’re that inovative elite sniper teams (maybe except for the Marines) can get them.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

HOLY FAN BOY BATMAN!!!

I hate to let you know but I am not misinformed at all. I started shooting the mini-windrunner aka 1st gen Nemesis when you were 15 years old

I also was involved in the contract between EDM and Nemesis Arms..I know exactly what happened and why Nemesis did not "go after" EDM for making the mini-windrunner AFTER Nemesis owned the rights (per the contract) to the design.

Vigilance Rifles is still making the mini-windrunner design to this very day.

You may want to get with David and see if he wants you to have someone put that information out or if he would just rather let sleeping dogs lay.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Fig]

The “test” you reference above in those conditions would be 95% marksman and 5% rifle no matter what.

 

[perttime]

PSE Composite stocks were going to make a stock for the Blaser R8. If they do / did that, would it make the R8 more appealing for you?

GRS does make stocks for Blaser. Seems to be a factory option, actually.

 

[300ATT]

With the Blaser you typically buy a dedicated scope for each barrel so you are swapping out scoped barrels and you have no RTZ problems. More expensive as you have more scopes but it just works.

My AI/ AT and AI/PSR take the more common approach of screwing in different barrels. There is a POI shift each time and it can vary slightly especially if don’t use a torque wrench on the locking screw. I found that in the field I needed to reconfirm zero each time I swapped barrels.

As for headspace not one of my guns but another shooter w shouldered barlock set up. Had to carry go no-go gauges for each barrel swap and then had RTZ issues.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I have one of the Nemisis Vanquish rifles that I'm selling at a local store.
Nice rifle, but for the 20 pound weight, I'll take a post 2014 AT or AX

 

[300ATT]

I will need to shoot the Pikes Peak match

 

[Prebanpaul]

You just have to open your eyes....... it has been made for years. It’s called the H-S precision take down.

 

[roamin]

I went with an AXSA. I didn't want the weight but it really is the only takedown system that's squared away and offers enough factory support. So I ordered 18" 6.5cm Proof Barrels even with them I'll be 2-3lbs heavier than I'd hoped but I'd rather have a rifle that does what I want than a rifle that doesn't but weighs what I want.

In truth no one makes what I'm looking for the industry is advancing but it's still developing. One day. Until then I'll just run the AX like a CSR and take the weight.

 

[roamin]

PSE Composite stocks were going to make a stock for the Blaser R8. If they do / did that, would it make the R8 more appealing for you?

If someone were to make a lightweight rightside folding chassis for the r8 that was as good as the Fix's or CA's MSR I'd consider it otherwise no.

 

[roamin]

Takedown, Schmakedown...

An AR is a takedown, two pins and it's about as short as your takedown bolt rifle.

Lots to choose from, AR's provide an immediate followup shot, there are some both lighter and less expensive than the Rem CSR, and accuracy is not that hard to find in AR's.

IMHO, most chassis rifles are just trying to do what the AR does, but getting it done slower; they look like a Kluge to me.

Just sayin'...

Fulton, Stag.

Greg

No it's not about as short as a takedown rifle even brokedown a 16" AR15 is 25.5-26" with a brake. Takendown my 22" AR10 hangs out of my 31" Gunslinger scabbard an inch or so. I was really aiming for a max length of 20" takendown with an 18" barrel and short action calibers. Besides if I wanted an AR I'd open my safe and most everyone can say the same.

 

[schmi015]

http://www.edmarms.com/products/m06.htm

It isnt AI and not quite 9lbs. No tools and super compact.

EDM is long gone so why mention them? The company died with Bill Ritchie.

To date they have sold their rifles in various capacities to 5 different NATO allied countries and just sold their new LMR to the U.S. Military.

They actually have already sold some of their LMRs in a modified shortened/supresssd package to SOCOM as well as their Valkyrie to several NSW units (as a result of the test). So luckily the procurement system accommodates for special operations.

What Nato allies and in what numbers? How many did the US Mil buy? This doesn't sound like a procurement as much as a test and evaluation purchase. Just a couple months ago the army bought like 5 each of 9 different SMG's to evaluate for a solicitation. The guns typically get scrapped afterward, thank you DLA Disposition Services.

SOF doesn't typically go through the normal AT&L process anyway they have their own people and testing methodologies for this stuff.

 

[perttime]

No it's not about as short as a takedown rifle even brokedown a 16" AR15 is 25.5-26" with a brake.

The 20" barrel of the Steyr AUG is about 21.25" with the small muzzle device . That is the longest piece when you take the barrel out - which takes a couple of seconds.

 

[roamin]

The 20" barrel of the Steyr AUG is about 21.25" with the small muzzle device . That is the longest piece when you take the barrel out - which takes a couple of seconds.

And it's cool because Die Hard too. I think Aug's are nice set ups but when did they become a long range percision rifle? Seems to be an off topic mention.

 

[XLR308]

And it's cool because Die Hard too. I think Aug's are nice set ups but when did they become a long range percision rifle? Seems to be an off topic mention.

Pretty much all replies are off topic to a loaded question with no real answer.

 

[perttime]

And it's cool because Die Hard too. I think Aug's are nice set ups but when did they become a long range percision rifle? Seems to be an off topic mention.

I saw you mentioned AR-15. The AUG is no less accurate than your average AR.

 

[roamin]

I saw you mentioned AR-15. The AUG is no less accurate than your average AR.

I only mentioned the AR in response to another poster and I expressed disinterest to that poster so your mention of an Aug is off topic. This thread is posted in the bolt action specific forums semiauto's are not relevant to this thread. Again if I wanted a semiauto with takedown capability AR or otherwise I'd open my safe and grab one.

I also mentioned that I've purchased an AX I'm not interested in trading you for your Aug if that's what you're about to suggest.

 

[perttime]

...
I also mentioned that I've purchased an AX I'm not interested in trading you for your Aug if that's what you're about to suggest.

Not for sale. It is so handy to take along in a gym bag or back pack.

I was only responding to your off-topic post about a disassembled AR being pretty long. Wanna continue the bickering?

 

[roamin]

Not for sale. It is so handy to take along in a gym bag or back pack.

I was only responding to your off-topic post about a disassembled AR being pretty long. Wanna continue the bickering?

Don't worry about it it's okay I'm not upset but this thread is posted in the bolt gun not the semiauto section if you could stay on topic in the future please.

 

[schmi015]

AI is nice. Someone mentioned this earlier https://www.hsprecision.com/shop2/firearms/take-down-rifles/ptd/ but its not a chassis system and the R8 from Blaser more than likely kicks the shit out of the HS in the accuracy department.

 

[perttime]

https://www.blaser.de/en/products/b...8-models-with-wooden-stock/r8-long-range-grs/

 

[300ATT]

Watch the following - skip forward to 13:40. At 14:30 - ish Notice how quickly you can cycle a Blaser bolt.

Watch the whole thing if you are interested in seeing shooters truing data in the higher latitudes.

 

[roamin]

Watch the following - skip forward to 13:40. At 14:30 - ish Notice how quickly you can cycle a Blaser bolt.

Watch the whole thing if you are interested in seeing shooters truing data in the higher latitudes.

I've already purchased an AX.

 

[roamin]

Once the barrels come in I should wind up with this.

 

[perttime]

I've already purchased an AX.

That does not prevent the thread from having continuing value.

 

[roamin]

That does not prevent the thread from having continuing value.

I was looking for a takedown rifle with RTZ capability something that was designed to handle being takendown after every firing session and who's manufacturer offered strong factory support in the US on parts and accessories. I was not interested in any bullpups, semiautos, or rifle's that weren't chassis rifle's and I wanted a right side folding stock and a railed handguard that was designed to be takendown as well for compactness.

I think the AX with Proof Research barrels was the best choice.

 

[300ATT]

AX is not a bad way to go ... on the heavy side for hunting but my experience with AX/AT is that the barrel will RTZ with proper torque to set screw.

 

[LastShot300]

With the Blaser you typically buy a dedicated scope for each barrel so you are swapping out scoped barrels and you have no RTZ problems. More expensive as you have more scopes but it just works.

My AI/ AT and AI/PSR take the more common approach of screwing in different barrels. There is a POI shift each time and it can vary slightly especially if don’t use a torque wrench on the locking screw. I found that in the field I needed to reconfirm zero each time I swapped barrels.

As for headspace not one of my guns but another shooter w shouldered barlock set up. Had to carry go no-go gauges for each barrel swap and then had RTZ issues.

Have you ever tested the Sauer 404? Never touched one but it's high on my list. Not a fan of the straigth-pull action and having to carry as many scopes as barrels, that setup is just not for me. The 404 really caught my eye, being extremely easy to take down, switch barrels, calibers, all with just one tool and the XTC Carbon looks like a serious contender for mountain hunting or long haulings.

 

[RickyRodney]

Just came from a show and got to meet the owner of Nemesis Arms. He claimed an absolute return to zero every time after break down. His rifle would disassemble and reassemble in seconds with no tools. Was convincing.

 

[brianf]

Return to zero “absolute” is a big statement.
Return to zero is just tolerances and robustness of design.
The more they are used less “absolute” they become.

If they start out with a good design that held to exacting tolerances they will return to zero for a longer period of time.

Everything shits the bed sooner or later.
Pay attention after every reassemble and replace/repair when needed.

Don’t always say the first shot “was me”, it might be the weapon seating itself.

 

[RickyRodney]

I agree and there is a review thread on here of nemesis arms and it was pretty bad. The Nemesis guy said his guns would be 1/2” and the review never did better than .93” that’s a far cry from a 1/2 minutes rifle.

 

[300ATT]

Roamin,

Nice snag on the AX you will like it ... it IS a bit heavy for walk-around hunting but if you're in a blind or on "deer overwatch" it will be great.

I have an AI AT also a AI PSR and my experience with the AI AT/AX/PSR's return to zero is that they are sensitive to the amount of torque you use on the barrel set screw. Different torque will change the RTZ enough to notice. A small torque wrench is your friend ... then there is the discussion about what torque works best ...

 

[AndrewWorld]

I'd really like to have a light short action takedown in the 7.5-9lb range. Something similar to Remington's CSR but it'd have to be made by someone that supports their products. A lightweight AI CSR designed around and all new lighter action and chassis would be a wet dream. Will someone ever make this rifle I've been waiting for?

Just go with the original. They are available now. I cannot speak to the parts support, though.

 

[THEIS]

Just go with the original.

Hi,

They are the original of what??

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[AndrewWorld]

Hi,

They are the original of what??

Sincerely,
Theis

just based on his comment. He said he wanted something similar to the Remington CSR, since it was not available, but now that it is available, I was saying just go with the Remington that he was basing his question on.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Gotcha, Thanks for answering.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Going back to the Rolls-Royce reference...

Roll Royce exists because a very limited market segment will support the necessary price point for its survival.

It may be much the same with a special purpose/special configuration rifle.

So, in some sense, the answer to the question boils down to how quickly an appropriate size market segment can be identified for the development work, at the desired price point, to become fiscally appropriate.

I'm thinking that the work of Ruger, in developing the takedown 10/223 and PC Carbines, is closer to the issue at a reasonable price point. Going further, the RPR is a demonstration of their commitment to the precision market segment.

So maybe, just maybe, if folks would deluge them with an appropriate request, and follow through with preorders, at the time a commitment is announced; then the money is where the mouth is, and such a company can reasonabley justify such a project to the fiscal management.

Greg

 

[AndrewWorld]

Return to zero “absolute” is a big statement.
Return to zero is just tolerances and robustness of design.
The more they are used less “absolute” they become.

If they start out with a good design that held to exacting tolerances they will return to zero for a longer period of time.

Everything shits the bed sooner or later.
Pay attention after every reassemble and replace/repair when needed.

Don’t always say the first shot “was me”, it might be the weapon seating itself.

I just got in a Remington CSR recently. It was consistently putting out 1/2 moa groups. I think the repeated take down and reassembly is indeed one of the biggest concerns, though. The Remington uses Titanium in some areas to avoid corrosion, (time will tell). I think I miquoted use of Titanium in the actual contact areas. I’m pretty sure it is steel to steel contact, with titanium in areas to resist corrosion. I have to admit, though, I just pull the trigger, and specific information on this rifle system is hard to come by.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

FWIW..Titanium has pretty bad wear resistance.....that is why the aerospace world has spent and continues to spend millions of dollars in creating and testing surface film lubricants geared specifically for Titanium.

Titanium Alloys - Wear Resistance

The wear resistance of titanium alloys is quite poor. It can be enhanced by any number of surface treatments such as enhanced surface films, conversion coatings, electrolytic and electroless plating, thermal spraying, nitriding and shot peening. These processes are reviewed for titanium herein.

www.azom.com

Dry Sliding Wear Behaviour of Titanium (Grade 5) Alloy by Using Response Surface Methodology

The dry sliding wear behaviour of titanium (Grade 5) alloy has been investigated in order to highlight the mechanisms responsible for the poor wear resistance under different applied normal load, sliding speed, and sliding distance conditions. Design of experimental technique, that is, response...

www.hindawi.com

Wear resistance enhancement of titanium alloy (Ti–6Al–4V) by ball burnishing process

The objective of the research was to improve the wear resistance of titanium alloys by ball burnishing process. Burnishing process parameters such as …

www.sciencedirect.com

Improving the wear resistance of titanium alloys under high contact loads - Metal Science and Heat Treatment

Ion-plasma application of wear-resistant coatings of an alloy of the system Fe−C−Cr−Ni−V−Ti containing interstitial phases (carbides, nitrides, borides) to (α+β)-titanium alloys makes it possible to enhance considerably their wear resistance under high contact loads (up to 300 N/mm2).

link.springer.com

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[AndrewWorld]

Hi,

FWIW..Titanium has pretty bad wear resistance.....that is why the aerospace world has spent and continues to spend millions of dollars in creating and testing surface film lubricants geared specifically for Titanium.

Titanium Alloys - Wear Resistance

The wear resistance of titanium alloys is quite poor. It can be enhanced by any number of surface treatments such as enhanced surface films, conversion coatings, electrolytic and electroless plating, thermal spraying, nitriding and shot peening. These processes are reviewed for titanium herein.

www.azom.com

Dry Sliding Wear Behaviour of Titanium (Grade 5) Alloy by Using Response Surface Methodology

The dry sliding wear behaviour of titanium (Grade 5) alloy has been investigated in order to highlight the mechanisms responsible for the poor wear resistance under different applied normal load, sliding speed, and sliding distance conditions. Design of experimental technique, that is, response...

www.hindawi.com

Wear resistance enhancement of titanium alloy (Ti–6Al–4V) by ball burnishing process

The objective of the research was to improve the wear resistance of titanium alloys by ball burnishing process. Burnishing process parameters such as …

www.sciencedirect.com

Improving the wear resistance of titanium alloys under high contact loads - Metal Science and Heat Treatment

Ion-plasma application of wear-resistant coatings of an alloy of the system Fe−C−Cr−Ni−V−Ti containing interstitial phases (carbides, nitrides, borides) to (α+β)-titanium alloys makes it possible to enhance considerably their wear resistance under high contact loads (up to 300 N/mm2).

link.springer.com

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[brianf]

@THEIS when you get done talking to Remington R&D about titanium make sure you ask them;

if they know so much why did they 2010 sniper rifle fail accuracy testing after the first batch was fielded?

 

[AndrewWorld]

@THEIS when you get done talking to Remington R&D about titanium make sure you ask them;

if they know so much why did they 2010 sniper rifle fail accuracy testing after the first batch was fielded?

Wait...A single batch of a single rifle from a company went bad one time...boycott.

 

[brianf]

Wait...A single batch of a single rifle from a company went bad one time...boycott.

actually they should have lost to the sako m10 but we all know the fix was in from the start

the same US military that spent millions of dollars and countless hours on a weapon competition, dumped the weapon ASAP

do some research before you chime in

not the hide's first rodeo dealing with 1/2 moa all day long out of factory rifles shooters

back to the truth about titanium and rifle actions, the main reason is titanium galls very easily

 

[Steel head]

Wait...A single batch of a single rifle from a company went bad one time...boycott.

It was enough for the military to bail on it.

 

[THEIS]

 

[roamin]

Just go with the original. They are available now. I cannot speak to the parts support, though.

I'm all set thanks. The more time I've spent with this AI the more I love this thing. I didn't want to be in bed with Remington mainly because the rifle doesn't have parts support. I'm happy I went this route the Remington CSR is in many ways a scaled PSR that the military seemed to want to get away from.