IDF Mauser M-66 SP
- Thread starter buffalowinter
- Start date
What is the approximate prices for the Italian M66 SP, with the Zeiss adjustable scope.
I may have the ability to buy the complete setup with the issue scope.
תודה על שירותך Gol1
I may have the ability to buy the complete setup with the issue scope.
תודה על שירותך Gol1
Classic Firearms recently sold ten of these. In the questions section, one commenter says they went for $5000 the last time they were for sale.
Mauser Model 66S German Sniper Rifle with Zeiss Scope and Matching Base - .308 Win - Made in Germany - Excellent condition
The Model 66S, or SP66, is a late Cold War era sniper rifle of German origin. It was developed by Mauser in the mid-1970's from the Model 66 Super Match hunting rifle. However it differs in having a redesigned chassis and a multi-slotted muzzle brake. The chassis include a highly adjustable...
www.classicfirearms.com
Not much of an answer, but better than none at all!
So I just got in the Nimrod scope from @buffalowinter for my 'inbound' IDF Mauser 66. Can't thank you enough, my friend! It is a stunning piece!
I am in the process of ordering rings and will get a Badger-style which seem to sort of match the originals.
My question is this... (and I am hoping that @gol1 or someone else who is an optics wizard can answer this): Is the scope body on the Nimrod 1 inch? Or is it 26mm metric? I put a vernier on the scope body and get 1.022" diameter. That also translates to 25.95mm on my vernier. Technically, I think that if I take it all the decimal places... it's 25.96mm.
So is the scope Inch or metric? I can get rings for 1" or for 26mm. And given that the Nimrod is Japanese... and derived from the German Kahles... it would not surprise me if it were metric. But it could easily be Inch.
Buffalowinter thinks Inch and I would not dispute that. But in true cold war fashion, I want to доверяй, но проверяй (Trust but verify!) And since it's no big deal to get rings in Metric or inch... why not ask. Plus I have a pin hone at the shop. Taking .022" out of a set of rings is childs-play. But getting the 'right stuff' up front would be a good thing!
Rifle is in transit now.... oh boy! I have not been this excited about a rifle since I got my TRG-22!!!!
Again, thanks to Buffalowinter who helped me find this rifle... and got me a wicked cool scope. Can't wait to shoot it!
Cheers,
Sirhr
I am in the process of ordering rings and will get a Badger-style which seem to sort of match the originals.
My question is this... (and I am hoping that @gol1 or someone else who is an optics wizard can answer this): Is the scope body on the Nimrod 1 inch? Or is it 26mm metric? I put a vernier on the scope body and get 1.022" diameter. That also translates to 25.95mm on my vernier. Technically, I think that if I take it all the decimal places... it's 25.96mm.
So is the scope Inch or metric? I can get rings for 1" or for 26mm. And given that the Nimrod is Japanese... and derived from the German Kahles... it would not surprise me if it were metric. But it could easily be Inch.
Buffalowinter thinks Inch and I would not dispute that. But in true cold war fashion, I want to доверяй, но проверяй (Trust but verify!) And since it's no big deal to get rings in Metric or inch... why not ask. Plus I have a pin hone at the shop. Taking .022" out of a set of rings is childs-play. But getting the 'right stuff' up front would be a good thing!
Rifle is in transit now.... oh boy! I have not been this excited about a rifle since I got my TRG-22!!!!
Again, thanks to Buffalowinter who helped me find this rifle... and got me a wicked cool scope. Can't wait to shoot it!
Cheers,
Sirhr
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Glad that project is working out for you. The IDF scopes are 26mm, at least the example I had. (Both the Japanese Nimrod and the later Kahles 'Futonic' that replaced them on IDF M14s). I probably would not use the 1" rings as it will lightly indent the tube once tightened down, or not tighten down properly.
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Through the scope shot. The quality of these is really amazing for a 1970s design. Great resolution and I like the reticle.
Started stripping off about 5 layers of paint. Black (thick almost like POR15), red, more black, tan that looks like some of the IDF equipment I’ve seen, and more black. On top of a rugged blue steel tube. Though I think the scope shipped with a thin layer of paint (black) or a paint-like coating.
Suspect the tan is field expedient but what the IDF used? Who knows. If this was an IDF issued scope. It is right for the gun, but who knows who bought it new!
Alas, not marked “Zohan.”
Cheers, Sirhr
Started stripping off about 5 layers of paint. Black (thick almost like POR15), red, more black, tan that looks like some of the IDF equipment I’ve seen, and more black. On top of a rugged blue steel tube. Though I think the scope shipped with a thin layer of paint (black) or a paint-like coating.
Suspect the tan is field expedient but what the IDF used? Who knows. If this was an IDF issued scope. It is right for the gun, but who knows who bought it new!
Alas, not marked “Zohan.”
Cheers, Sirhr
Good luck with the restoration. For clarification, the scope you have is not the Japanese-made 6x40mm 'Nimrod' scope, which was used by the IDF on M14s from 1984 to around 1994, but rather it is the 6x42mm Swarovski 'Futonic' scope, which was used from 1994 to approximately the 1998-99 when the IDF got their M24s. The M14 sniper/DMR rifles went into reserves until I think the IDF disposed of them in the mid-201Xs. Attached is the brief history. Many of these scopes came into the US via SAI around 1998-99 when the IDF sold some IDF M14 parts to SAI, who made a few hundred commerative IDF M1As in the late 1990s. As for the Nimrod, it was also used on the Galil sniper rifle, and maybe the Mauser 66 as well, but I'm not well versed in the later platform.
(Note: last picture shows what I think were the predecessors to the much more advanced Mauser M-66 sniper rifle, the old FN-made post WWII K98s that had been chambered in 7.62 NATO around 1958, and fitted with cheek risers and a claw-type scope mount. Top rifle with camo has the 6x40 Nimrod, and the bottom rifle (unpainted wood stock) has the old 4x Wilde-Herrrbrugg scope, which was actually used on the original M14 sniper from the early 1970s until 1984, when the Nimrod's replaced them. Just an fyi post of the early 1950-1970s era IDF Mauser snipers).
I think the more recent 6x Nimrod and 6x Futonic scopes were sold-off by the IDF round 2016, and all those one's I've seen in the US market were refurbished, probably via cleaning them and painting them with that thick black paint to make them look fresh again. Also shown is a painted stock on an IDF M14 sniper/DMR, which shows some of the colors used, etc. Anyhow, the glass on those German-made scopes is actually quite good, so enjoy it(!).
Attachments
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Just doing a bit of over-coffee googling and figured I could dump images here as well as any place....
^^^ This picture is pure gold... because this is the scope I am cleaning up. I had NO idea that there was a tritium or similar element in one of these... why else the Trefoil????
I knew there would be an eyepiece like this (based on the design of the ring at the back.) This confirms it.
That's all for now... but this evening, in between scraping paint, I'll find some more pictures.
These came mostly from one thread on Gunboards, where a lot of good info is getting posted. I think LL has a rule about linking to other forums, so I won't hotlink it. But it's not hard to find.
More to come.
This thread is pure historical and technical gold folks! Thanks for all the great info! Keep it coming!
Cheers,
Sirhr
^^^ This picture is pure gold... because this is the scope I am cleaning up. I had NO idea that there was a tritium or similar element in one of these... why else the Trefoil????
I knew there would be an eyepiece like this (based on the design of the ring at the back.) This confirms it.
That's all for now... but this evening, in between scraping paint, I'll find some more pictures.
These came mostly from one thread on Gunboards, where a lot of good info is getting posted. I think LL has a rule about linking to other forums, so I won't hotlink it. But it's not hard to find.
More to come.
This thread is pure historical and technical gold folks! Thanks for all the great info! Keep it coming!
Cheers,
Sirhr
And under 5 layers of paint we have this!!!
Cheers, Sirhr
Cheers, Sirhr
Neat, the yellow sticker is still present. What ware you using to remove that paint? Just curious what it will look like once you finish...please keep us posted.
Removing paint with a very sharp knife, scraping very carefully and then removing the last vestiges with lacquer thinner and a bit of Scotchbrite. Once the paint is all off, I will re-paint. But do not know what color yet. I have seen these things in olive green (clearly paint), black (which appears to be the original finish over the blued steel/black anodized aluminum), and IDF yellow/sand/Khaki, which is also clearly paint... because I am removing a ton of it. I have this exact color in my 'model paint' selection and may airbrush it to an exact color rather than try the Krylon thing with some random tan.
More to follow. Now... who knows where the Tritium lamp is? How does one get to it to replace it? Assume it's a vial like a Trilux? But... where is it!
Cheers,
Sirhr
More to follow. Now... who knows where the Tritium lamp is? How does one get to it to replace it? Assume it's a vial like a Trilux? But... where is it!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Thanks for this... you must have post it while I was typing this morning! Fantastic info!
Cheers,
Sirhr
So hoping that some of you guys with M66 experience can help me out with a poser... esp. @buffalowinter and @gol1 !
The rifle arrived and is together. But the safety does not work. The seller told me about this when I bought it. So it was something I expected to have to deal with.
I have gotten the bolt stripped down as far as this. But I can't for the life of me figure out how to get the safety apart. I also got the Ball Detente out (it was virtually rusted into place...) But for the life of me, I cannot figure out how to get the rest of the bolt/firing mechanism apart. Here is how far I got it:
I believe the safety needs to come out, but it has a sort of leg that keeps it from coming out. There is a tiny screw on the 'back' of the safety lever and I wonder if it needs to come out... but it doesn't have a 'straight shot' to get to it. And I am not sure it matters. It's a 'safety on the safety' and I don't think it affects the removal of the safety. I could be wrong, though.
^^^ You can just see the screw.
If you look at the surface where the safety bar engages, it looks galled and messed up. I am planning to get it apart, stone and clean and lubricate all the surfaces to get the safety lever working again.
Seller stated in the auction that 'safety failure was a common occurrence in these rifles.' And while that may be true with heavy use... my guess is that it worked fine when it left the factory and I can make it fine again. But I have to get the $##@ing thing apart!!!!
Anyone have any info on how to get the final striker mechanism apart and get the safety out?
Thanks in advance,
Sirhr
BTW... this rifle is awesome! Even with safety issue, it is smooth as silk! And painted the scope today. Opted not to re-illuminate as it would mean letting the gas out of the scope. And it's in really nice shape, optically. So as I won't be shooting it at night (I have other rifles for that), I will leave the tritium lamp restoration out of the restoration.
The rifle arrived and is together. But the safety does not work. The seller told me about this when I bought it. So it was something I expected to have to deal with.
I have gotten the bolt stripped down as far as this. But I can't for the life of me figure out how to get the safety apart. I also got the Ball Detente out (it was virtually rusted into place...) But for the life of me, I cannot figure out how to get the rest of the bolt/firing mechanism apart. Here is how far I got it:
I believe the safety needs to come out, but it has a sort of leg that keeps it from coming out. There is a tiny screw on the 'back' of the safety lever and I wonder if it needs to come out... but it doesn't have a 'straight shot' to get to it. And I am not sure it matters. It's a 'safety on the safety' and I don't think it affects the removal of the safety. I could be wrong, though.
^^^ You can just see the screw.
If you look at the surface where the safety bar engages, it looks galled and messed up. I am planning to get it apart, stone and clean and lubricate all the surfaces to get the safety lever working again.
Seller stated in the auction that 'safety failure was a common occurrence in these rifles.' And while that may be true with heavy use... my guess is that it worked fine when it left the factory and I can make it fine again. But I have to get the $##@ing thing apart!!!!
Anyone have any info on how to get the final striker mechanism apart and get the safety out?
Thanks in advance,
Sirhr
BTW... this rifle is awesome! Even with safety issue, it is smooth as silk! And painted the scope today. Opted not to re-illuminate as it would mean letting the gas out of the scope. And it's in really nice shape, optically. So as I won't be shooting it at night (I have other rifles for that), I will leave the tritium lamp restoration out of the restoration.
Three hours of treating this thing like a cross between a Rubix Cube and a Fidget Spinner and I have it figured out.
It's so German....
All will be revealed in the morning. With Coffee. Because I am going to need coffee to explain it.
And since NOWHERE on the Interwebs does anyone describe how this little monstrosity works, I best post something erudite and intelligent-sounding. Which requires coffee.
But once you understand it... it works. In true German fashion.
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS. Betting this thing has incredibly fast lock time. The firing pin spring is like something from an F250 truck spring.
It's so German....
All will be revealed in the morning. With Coffee. Because I am going to need coffee to explain it.
And since NOWHERE on the Interwebs does anyone describe how this little monstrosity works, I best post something erudite and intelligent-sounding. Which requires coffee.
But once you understand it... it works. In true German fashion.
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS. Betting this thing has incredibly fast lock time. The firing pin spring is like something from an F250 truck spring.
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So you compressed the spring from each end and found something? What I would have done.
Inquiring minds, etc....
Inquiring minds, etc....
This ‘almost’ helps. But not quite.
Cheers, Sirhr
Cheers, Sirhr
Ok... now that I am caffeinated and have had my morning bacon and lime-juice... here's my shot at deciphering the instruction book above. Which does mention turning the firing pin retainer 90 degrees, but doesn't explain how, what or wherefore. Also figured out why the safety is no longer working. More below. BTW, smartphone users may find these photos large. But I wanted the details visible.
Left to right. Safety switch itself. This has a cutout (see later photos) that blocks the firing pin and a 'leg' that fits into a slot on the firing pin block when engaged. Below it is the firing pin block. This carries the firing pin, the spring and the safety. It REVERSE threads into the rear of the bolt. It is not a tight fit. But is a REVERSE thread! Next is the little 'leg' that fits into the notch on the back of the bolt. Next is the sear which carries the firing pin. Then we have the firing pin and the firing pin spring (which is massive!) And I think contributes to the safety wear issue.
Below we have the Safety itself showing the 'safety on the safety' and the tiny screw that holds this paddle in place. There is a small spring inside. I see no reason to take this apart. I used laquer thinner and WD40 to get it moving. It's in fine shape. Hanging off the safety 'axle' is the little ear that fits into the safety notch on the back of the bolt. This only allows the safety to move when the rifle is in battery with the bolt closed.
Next we have the inside of the sear. Sorry, it's blurry. Camera only wants to focus on the matting. But you can see the 'interrupted lands and grooves' that mate with the firing pin. This is the sticky wicket in all this. The diagrams in the Mauser manual show a threaded collar at the back. So does the Numrich Arms parts site. This may have been used at one point, but on these rifles, there is no threading. It's a collar that you slide the firing pin into and turn 90 degrees. HOWEVER... because of wear (see heavy firing pin spring above) the pin itself sits in some worn spots and so won't turn 90 degrees smoothly. You have to compress the sear and 'wiggle it' in order to get it to pop out of its wear grooves. These are likely a result of the severe use these rifles no doubt took in service. Thousands of training rounds... and fielding. I doubt Mauser designed its 66 actions for this level of usage. And with the heavy spring (great lock time) comes incipient wear. I *believe* that this is what is causing the safety issues in this rifle (and I am told in many of them), which is that the wear is letting the sear move forward a few thousandths and is jamming the safety so it can't rotate smoothly into its notch. More below.
Below is everything sort of laid out. You can see the notches in the back of the firing pin, lined up with the sear. And probably the best picture of the safety itself. You can see it's notch which clears the firing pin, but rolls into the notch (just visible at the top left of the sear) that is scalloped out to accept the barrel of the safety. It's this notch that I plan to work on with files (probably too hard) or stones in order to move it back a few thousandths and let the safety rotate smoothly. I am also going to stone some burrs off the sear itself. You can see some marks on the sear from dismantling over the ages. The two 'dots' are for a ball detente. That tiny 1mm ball goes into a hole at the back of the pin carrier block with a set screw. It was frozen into place with rust when I started this.
Here is the ring that fits on the safety (you can also see it above, fitted into its recess just to the left of the red dot). This slips over the safety bar and is what keeps the safety from moving unless the rifle is in battery. It, too, was pretty frozen with ancient crud.
Last, this is the safety in place. It moves freely, but won't when I reassemble with the spring. The powerful lock spring seems to have caused everything to pound its way forward and it would take only a few thousandths of wear to jam up the safety. And once it starts to burr up, all bets are off. I could actually get it to work if I really forced it backwards. So I know it 'can' engage. I just have to restore some tolerance.
So mystery solved for now. And maybe this will help some who have one of these. Or some new guys who will find this in a search and realize that, hey, Snipers Hide is the place to go for vintage!
Any additional input is welcomed for sure! I will let you know how my machining comes out. I should be mowing today. But this is way more fun. Let the damn grass grow. I won't get a range report until my rings arrive... early this week I hope.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Left to right. Safety switch itself. This has a cutout (see later photos) that blocks the firing pin and a 'leg' that fits into a slot on the firing pin block when engaged. Below it is the firing pin block. This carries the firing pin, the spring and the safety. It REVERSE threads into the rear of the bolt. It is not a tight fit. But is a REVERSE thread! Next is the little 'leg' that fits into the notch on the back of the bolt. Next is the sear which carries the firing pin. Then we have the firing pin and the firing pin spring (which is massive!) And I think contributes to the safety wear issue.
Below we have the Safety itself showing the 'safety on the safety' and the tiny screw that holds this paddle in place. There is a small spring inside. I see no reason to take this apart. I used laquer thinner and WD40 to get it moving. It's in fine shape. Hanging off the safety 'axle' is the little ear that fits into the safety notch on the back of the bolt. This only allows the safety to move when the rifle is in battery with the bolt closed.
Next we have the inside of the sear. Sorry, it's blurry. Camera only wants to focus on the matting. But you can see the 'interrupted lands and grooves' that mate with the firing pin. This is the sticky wicket in all this. The diagrams in the Mauser manual show a threaded collar at the back. So does the Numrich Arms parts site. This may have been used at one point, but on these rifles, there is no threading. It's a collar that you slide the firing pin into and turn 90 degrees. HOWEVER... because of wear (see heavy firing pin spring above) the pin itself sits in some worn spots and so won't turn 90 degrees smoothly. You have to compress the sear and 'wiggle it' in order to get it to pop out of its wear grooves. These are likely a result of the severe use these rifles no doubt took in service. Thousands of training rounds... and fielding. I doubt Mauser designed its 66 actions for this level of usage. And with the heavy spring (great lock time) comes incipient wear. I *believe* that this is what is causing the safety issues in this rifle (and I am told in many of them), which is that the wear is letting the sear move forward a few thousandths and is jamming the safety so it can't rotate smoothly into its notch. More below.
Below is everything sort of laid out. You can see the notches in the back of the firing pin, lined up with the sear. And probably the best picture of the safety itself. You can see it's notch which clears the firing pin, but rolls into the notch (just visible at the top left of the sear) that is scalloped out to accept the barrel of the safety. It's this notch that I plan to work on with files (probably too hard) or stones in order to move it back a few thousandths and let the safety rotate smoothly. I am also going to stone some burrs off the sear itself. You can see some marks on the sear from dismantling over the ages. The two 'dots' are for a ball detente. That tiny 1mm ball goes into a hole at the back of the pin carrier block with a set screw. It was frozen into place with rust when I started this.
Here is the ring that fits on the safety (you can also see it above, fitted into its recess just to the left of the red dot). This slips over the safety bar and is what keeps the safety from moving unless the rifle is in battery. It, too, was pretty frozen with ancient crud.
Last, this is the safety in place. It moves freely, but won't when I reassemble with the spring. The powerful lock spring seems to have caused everything to pound its way forward and it would take only a few thousandths of wear to jam up the safety. And once it starts to burr up, all bets are off. I could actually get it to work if I really forced it backwards. So I know it 'can' engage. I just have to restore some tolerance.
So mystery solved for now. And maybe this will help some who have one of these. Or some new guys who will find this in a search and realize that, hey, Snipers Hide is the place to go for vintage!
Any additional input is welcomed for sure! I will let you know how my machining comes out. I should be mowing today. But this is way more fun. Let the damn grass grow. I won't get a range report until my rings arrive... early this week I hope.
Cheers,
Sirhr
One more.. showing the wear on the sear. The shiny spot at the front of the sear. It's just a couple of thou... but enough to jam up the safety. Especially when combined with matching wear on the sear release on the rifle.
I should have it sorted out by lunch!
And, Yes, BW... My safety too. But I like things to work all factory-fresh-like. And light triggers on powerful rifles are best accompanied by positive safeties. Especially if one lets friends shoot rifles, or goes to public ranges and shoots. The root of an ND might be negligence in not fixing the safety!!!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Oh man that is funny! BTW, I know the guy who did that.
Anyhow, sirhr, do you think this is a case of not only a really strong spring but maybe someone didn't foresee hardening these parts enough?
Sand... more when I get on a keyboard.
for now... pix and I will update with text when I get on laptop.
But success. Safety works like new. Removed .011” from safety engagement point on sear. That was measured, btw. Used depth gauge to determine how much to take off.
This is the sear that you will remember from above. I figured out how much to remove by assembling the rifle without the firing pin spring and then measuring the point at which the sear engages and the point at which the safety engages. Found that it was .010" off. And so cut .011" out of the end. I was going to do it with a file. But it was harder than woodpecker lips. Then I was going to try a small drum on a dremel, but that has lousy control and I have a thing about using dremels on good guns (they turn them into bad guns in a hurry...). So set this in the mill and using a 1/4" ballnose carbide endmill that I happened to have lying around, I got the radius re-cut and removed exactly .011". Followed that by a polishing with 600 paper and a slight radius at the top to help the engagement.
I also went over the whole sear with stones and 600 paper on a flat block. Cleaned all the burrs flat. Much better.
With all that done, I reassembled with the mainspring in place. Its a lot of pressure to put it together. I imagine Mauser had a fixture. I used an arbor press and a small aluminum cored round to protect the firing pin. With everything in place, the safety snicks into place perfectly and works like it left the factory! I bet it takes a lot of heavy rounds to wear out a fine Mauser like this. And I bet the IDF snipers trained hard and fired a lot of heavy rounds! Fortunately, the bore looks nice and if it had to be re-barreled... is simple enough to do.
Safety off...
Safety off. Note the 'Glock-style' safety on the safety. Rather ingenious little device for a rifle. Even if it did wear out!
Finished action. Watch for scale (@MarinePMI will appreciate it.)
Scope finished, though I had the caps on the wrong turrets when I took this picture. Fixed now. it came out well, though a slightly more 'yellow' tan would have been more in keeping with IDF camo, this fits the bill. Once the rings come in, I can mount this and I figured out how to set the turrets for the zero. This is a wicked nice scope!! I'd like a bit more magnification, but this one fits the bill for now. Thanks again @buffalowinter. Hope I managed to do right by it!
So until I get a range report, probably next Sunday, this is where we are. Mechanically functional. Scope I like. Ammo ready (match-grade full length re-size... though 150 not 168. I bet this thing likes 168). But after I fire form some cases I'll load with 168 and it will all be good!
Bet this thing drives tacks!
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS. @sandwarrior I don't call into question the hardening. The parts had hard in the logical places and soft in the logical places. And in some cases, like the sear, they did a really good job of hardening selectively so it's not too brittle. Hardening is an interesting balance. Too hard and your part breaks and is brittle. Too soft and it pounds out. Honestly, my guess is that these rifles were used hard for decades. In some tough conditions. Any rifle has a lifetime of service or an MTBF... and the safeties on these simply seem to have reached their lives. When the M66 was designed, it was as a hunting rifle (they even made an Africa Version) and then a target rifle. Not as a military-grade sniper rifle that shoots a lot more (heavy) rounds than most target rifles. And in more difficult conditions. So don't think there is an issue with hardening. Likely many other rifles would have 'died' long before this one did!
for now... pix and I will update with text when I get on laptop.
But success. Safety works like new. Removed .011” from safety engagement point on sear. That was measured, btw. Used depth gauge to determine how much to take off.
This is the sear that you will remember from above. I figured out how much to remove by assembling the rifle without the firing pin spring and then measuring the point at which the sear engages and the point at which the safety engages. Found that it was .010" off. And so cut .011" out of the end. I was going to do it with a file. But it was harder than woodpecker lips. Then I was going to try a small drum on a dremel, but that has lousy control and I have a thing about using dremels on good guns (they turn them into bad guns in a hurry...). So set this in the mill and using a 1/4" ballnose carbide endmill that I happened to have lying around, I got the radius re-cut and removed exactly .011". Followed that by a polishing with 600 paper and a slight radius at the top to help the engagement.
I also went over the whole sear with stones and 600 paper on a flat block. Cleaned all the burrs flat. Much better.
With all that done, I reassembled with the mainspring in place. Its a lot of pressure to put it together. I imagine Mauser had a fixture. I used an arbor press and a small aluminum cored round to protect the firing pin. With everything in place, the safety snicks into place perfectly and works like it left the factory! I bet it takes a lot of heavy rounds to wear out a fine Mauser like this. And I bet the IDF snipers trained hard and fired a lot of heavy rounds! Fortunately, the bore looks nice and if it had to be re-barreled... is simple enough to do.
Safety off...
Safety off. Note the 'Glock-style' safety on the safety. Rather ingenious little device for a rifle. Even if it did wear out!
Finished action. Watch for scale (@MarinePMI will appreciate it.)
Scope finished, though I had the caps on the wrong turrets when I took this picture. Fixed now. it came out well, though a slightly more 'yellow' tan would have been more in keeping with IDF camo, this fits the bill. Once the rings come in, I can mount this and I figured out how to set the turrets for the zero. This is a wicked nice scope!! I'd like a bit more magnification, but this one fits the bill for now. Thanks again @buffalowinter. Hope I managed to do right by it!
So until I get a range report, probably next Sunday, this is where we are. Mechanically functional. Scope I like. Ammo ready (match-grade full length re-size... though 150 not 168. I bet this thing likes 168). But after I fire form some cases I'll load with 168 and it will all be good!
Bet this thing drives tacks!
Cheers,
Sirhr
PS. @sandwarrior I don't call into question the hardening. The parts had hard in the logical places and soft in the logical places. And in some cases, like the sear, they did a really good job of hardening selectively so it's not too brittle. Hardening is an interesting balance. Too hard and your part breaks and is brittle. Too soft and it pounds out. Honestly, my guess is that these rifles were used hard for decades. In some tough conditions. Any rifle has a lifetime of service or an MTBF... and the safeties on these simply seem to have reached their lives. When the M66 was designed, it was as a hunting rifle (they even made an Africa Version) and then a target rifle. Not as a military-grade sniper rifle that shoots a lot more (heavy) rounds than most target rifles. And in more difficult conditions. So don't think there is an issue with hardening. Likely many other rifles would have 'died' long before this one did!
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You personally know the real life Hoot? Saw a interview of em one time on military channel, seems like a interesting dude..Oh man that is funny! BTW, I know the guy who did that.
Anyhow, sirhr, do you think this is a case of not only a really strong spring but maybe someone didn't foresee hardening these parts enough?
I know you’ve said you’ve gotten to work with the d-boys a few times when you were in...did you meet em while in the Army?
Also, not to go off track.. but did Delta have the same ultra-elite reputation back then, that they have nowadays?
I went through SF scuba school with him in the summer of '83. Great guy. Delta has always had the reputation they have today.
Added: He was not Delta in '83
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Thanks for the reply on hardening. I wouldn't think that as anal the Germans are about manufacturing, that they would not have hardened the individual pieces the way they did. As you noted, and the proof is in the parts, it is the heavy spring.
Most everything I've seen from them is like that, i.e. precision tooling, old mausers, etc. Some would call it over-engineered. I call it FULLY engineered.
So no pictures yet... but took the original scope base off today.
What a fun exercise! I think the Armories were doing some 'field expedient' work of their own! The philips head 6-32's definitely did not fit the bill. And were potted in epoxy. This still didn't keep the rust from forming under the base to the extent that it was definitely locked into place. Though I am remembering back to McBride and how they used to take salt and water and 'rust' all the sights in place to keep them from moving. So maybe it was something intentional! I am guessing the 6/32's were re-tapped. Though I can't say for sure. I expected Metric for some reason!
The rear screws are 5-40's (also called 1/8th by 40). And were also epoxy potted. They came out hard! And the holes were pretty grotty. The worst part is that a spacer of about 1mm had been welded to it in order to level the base with the slots in front. And when it was welded, someone left the weld un-dressed. So the entire base was sitting on two over-tightened screws and a 'pip' of weld. That appears to have been there virtually since new. That it held up is rather amazing! But a bit of work with dynafile and the weld 'pip' is gone and the base sits nicely and tight.
BTW, the only reason for taking off the base is that it's designed for claw rings. And I really want to use rings, without going to a Picatinny Rail with loads of slots. So I need to mill one more slot in it to clear the ring screw. And for that it needed to come off the rifle. And it was a good thing it did, given what I found above.
But, that sort of thing just makes it a challenge.
To deal with the rear screws, I chased the holes as best I could and then opened up a die enough to make a new 5-40 threaded screw that is a bit oversized on diameter. Fits just snug as can be! Lathes are fun! Even more fun if you know some hacks!
These are the new action screws. The rear one is new 5-40. The one in front is an original re-chased (thus the sketchy slot). The front two are cheese-heads modified with tapers cut below the head and shortened to fit the drillings.
Once I get the scope mounted up, I may have a spare Pic rail!
Hubba Hubba!
Cheers,
Sirhr
What a fun exercise! I think the Armories were doing some 'field expedient' work of their own! The philips head 6-32's definitely did not fit the bill. And were potted in epoxy. This still didn't keep the rust from forming under the base to the extent that it was definitely locked into place. Though I am remembering back to McBride and how they used to take salt and water and 'rust' all the sights in place to keep them from moving. So maybe it was something intentional! I am guessing the 6/32's were re-tapped. Though I can't say for sure. I expected Metric for some reason!
The rear screws are 5-40's (also called 1/8th by 40). And were also epoxy potted. They came out hard! And the holes were pretty grotty. The worst part is that a spacer of about 1mm had been welded to it in order to level the base with the slots in front. And when it was welded, someone left the weld un-dressed. So the entire base was sitting on two over-tightened screws and a 'pip' of weld. That appears to have been there virtually since new. That it held up is rather amazing! But a bit of work with dynafile and the weld 'pip' is gone and the base sits nicely and tight.
BTW, the only reason for taking off the base is that it's designed for claw rings. And I really want to use rings, without going to a Picatinny Rail with loads of slots. So I need to mill one more slot in it to clear the ring screw. And for that it needed to come off the rifle. And it was a good thing it did, given what I found above.
But, that sort of thing just makes it a challenge.
To deal with the rear screws, I chased the holes as best I could and then opened up a die enough to make a new 5-40 threaded screw that is a bit oversized on diameter. Fits just snug as can be! Lathes are fun! Even more fun if you know some hacks!
These are the new action screws. The rear one is new 5-40. The one in front is an original re-chased (thus the sketchy slot). The front two are cheese-heads modified with tapers cut below the head and shortened to fit the drillings.
Once I get the scope mounted up, I may have a spare Pic rail!
Hubba Hubba!
Cheers,
Sirhr
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Don't get too excited about groups. If you get 1 moa be happy. Old guns, old technology, and military standard of accuracy. Even today, the M110 SASS group standard was 1.3 MOA.
They’re the same way with cars. My dads a mechanical engineer and as a side job/hobby, a auto mechanic. He can work on anything but he prefers Mercedes diesels, that’s the only type of car he’ll own. Lol and he has like 5 of the damn things.
I’m gonna eventually convince em to get a drag car tho, we never missed a race at the Silver Dollar track when I was growing up
c. 1988 Harris Bipod mounted up. Scope in place. Mount all secure-like and ready to go!
Once I get the rifle zeroed at 100, I can dismantle the turrets and set the zero. The way they are designed, you can take them right down, slip the center lugs, and then have the rifle exactly on zero for 100, with BDC for 800. And wind calls left and right. They also lock, which is a really cool feature! You turn the outer ring to release them. Then change your POI, then turn the outer ring back down to lock the rings. Surprised that did not catch on. It's not fast... but no turret covers to lose!
It's a fantastic package.
Anyone want a free Pic rail for a Mauser 66? I milled one additional slot in the original rail and, Bob's your Uncle, have a perfect mount. So I don't need it. Those original rails are harder than a honeymooners pecker, btw. Used a carbide mill and even that was having a fun time taking .100 out of it.
Cheers,
Sirhr
So first group, just to get it on paper so I can slip my rings and get the scope set up. it's an odd turret system. I need to read more about it. What I was sure was a lock actually moves the reticle. A lot! So I need to figure it all out!
Three sighters simply on a bore sight. Not bad for a bore sight.
5 shot group after I got the elevation and windage tweaked just a hair. As Buffalowinter predicted... about an inch and a quarter. BUT... I don't think I did my part ;-)
First, scope is a tough one. Very thin stadia lines and I can't focus in any diopters. So was finding the target a hair fuzzy. Was also shooting in the sun and sweating like crazy (bipod and bag, prone, BTW. On grass. 90 yards). I know at least one of the group I pulled a bit on. Not really a called flyer. Just one I knew I was not happy with.
Second, the ammo is some I loaded up in some LC Match brass for my Scar. So it's a bit short. It's FL resized. And it's 150 Grain, not 168, which is what this rifle supposedly loves.
I am betting that after I get the turrets squared away and get some ammo loaded up that is 'right' for this rifle, I can cut this in half. Will it ever be a TRG or an AI? Probably not. But I will almost guarantee that once I get started tinkering with it, it will be very Sub-MOA.
Have no doubt that Gol's statement that they were making hits past 800 is right on. Gun is certainly capable of it. And if I can get it into just over MOA with the first 8 shots while squinting through an unfamiliar scope... Folks who carried these for a living would make these rifles sing!
Most happy! Thanks for the Steer, BW I owe you one. And by that, I mean... I need to make you buy something expensive. Again.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Three sighters simply on a bore sight. Not bad for a bore sight.
5 shot group after I got the elevation and windage tweaked just a hair. As Buffalowinter predicted... about an inch and a quarter. BUT... I don't think I did my part ;-)
First, scope is a tough one. Very thin stadia lines and I can't focus in any diopters. So was finding the target a hair fuzzy. Was also shooting in the sun and sweating like crazy (bipod and bag, prone, BTW. On grass. 90 yards). I know at least one of the group I pulled a bit on. Not really a called flyer. Just one I knew I was not happy with.
Second, the ammo is some I loaded up in some LC Match brass for my Scar. So it's a bit short. It's FL resized. And it's 150 Grain, not 168, which is what this rifle supposedly loves.
I am betting that after I get the turrets squared away and get some ammo loaded up that is 'right' for this rifle, I can cut this in half. Will it ever be a TRG or an AI? Probably not. But I will almost guarantee that once I get started tinkering with it, it will be very Sub-MOA.
Have no doubt that Gol's statement that they were making hits past 800 is right on. Gun is certainly capable of it. And if I can get it into just over MOA with the first 8 shots while squinting through an unfamiliar scope... Folks who carried these for a living would make these rifles sing!
Most happy! Thanks for the Steer, BW I owe you one. And by that, I mean... I need to make you buy something expensive. Again.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Wish I had this a week ago. From the Kahles web site.
Still not sure how the turrets work. But I’ll figure it out!
Sirhr
Still not sure how the turrets work. But I’ll figure it out!
Sirhr
Figured the turrets out today. So "Chermen.... or maybe that's Austrian."
I may do a video on them.
More to follow.
Sirhr
I may do a video on them.
More to follow.
Sirhr
He shoots... he scores!!! The crowd goes wild....
Ok, not so much. But sniped this on eBay this afternoon. $150ish including shipping from EU. Basically new correct Protecto Kaddy case for an M66 IDF Sniper. Now to snag a cleaning kit and a sling have the whole package!
Did the IDF shooters (or anyone for that matter) use any kind of cartridge wallet back then? Or was that a later tacticool innovation.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Usually we only used the ammunition boxes which we called honeycomb, no cartridge carrier was officially issued but many soldiers used improvised ammo belts we made or on the unit level.
Hadn't even thought of a cleaning kit! Which cleaning kit is correct for the 66SP? Metal or tin box? Contents?
Thanks,
Trog
IDF Israeli Mauser, Israeli K98 Cleaning Kit | eBay
Very Nice Condition Surplus IDF K98 Cleaning Kit. Complete your Israeli K98 with this very cool military issue, Hebrew marked, IDF Israeli Mauser K98 cleaning kit.
www.ebay.com
I bought one of these. I am guessing that, given the era, a plastic box is about right?
One left. Buy fast... unless Gol differs.
Cheers,
Sirhr
IDF Israeli Mauser, Israeli K98 Cleaning Kit | eBay
Very Nice Condition Surplus IDF K98 Cleaning Kit. Complete your Israeli K98 with this very cool military issue, Hebrew marked, IDF Israeli Mauser K98 cleaning kit.www.ebay.com
I bought one of these. I am guessing that, given the era, a plastic box is about right?
One left. Buy fast... unless Gol differs.
Cheers,
Sirhr
I've had my eye on it since reading your post.
I'll wait a second to see what Gol says, might have to buy piece by piece.
Oh, and while probably not period correct (per Gol's earlier comment), these might be fun:
It's two reloads of the magazine/chamber. Multiples of four aren't normal, so it might be correct for the 66 after all.
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Interesting bit of kit.
I've bought from that seller. He always has interesting stuff.
Cheers,
SIrhr
actually I don't remember what cleaning equipment we had, but I do know that the cleaning rod's we had were Parker Hale with black handle and yellow coating of the rod, I dont remember for sure if we got them with the M14's or the SP.
anyway I think everything in that period was improvised.
Sorry I can't be more helpful
anyway I think everything in that period was improvised.
Sorry I can't be more helpful
^^^ this!
How often do we get to hear info from the folks who used vintage rifles in the field.
Cannot thank you enough for your contributions here. I’d actually like to write a history piece on these for the American Rifleman... any chance you would like to contribute, Gol? As an in-named source, of course. Pm me if any interest!
Again, thanks!
Sirhr
exactly, but the idiots brought them with an "eye" so we had to pull them and not push.
If I remember correctly the first rifles the idf bought as system were the M24 and SR25 they arrived with some type of cleaning equipment, the SR25 even had a bore guidd and was the first we got with cleaning patches, even today patches are not supplied to us and I order them for my unit from Brownells, on my expense
thanks
So after a long wait... and a big UPS bill... I got the correct case for this rifle from Germany, of all places! NOS case... even has the keys!
Perfect fit! Room for cleaning kit and a couple of cardboard boxes of ammo! Way cool to complete the set!
Sirhr
Perfect fit! Room for cleaning kit and a couple of cardboard boxes of ammo! Way cool to complete the set!
Sirhr
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