PRS Talk If you DQ yourself, how do you claim to have won? Asking for a friend

[LawnMM]

In all honesty I don't even know who this is, but the word I got was somebody in the tactical division DQd himself. That's all fine and well and in keeping with the rules and good sportsmanship.

At least until you start going around saying you'd really won the whole thing. Pretty sure that DQing yourself means ... you lost, and by your own choice.

There's always two sides to every story so what am I missing? Other than reason number 421 not to shoot PRS and subject yourself to bullshit like this?

 

[lash]

It’s all about ego and it’s demands to finish first in your mind. It sounds like this hypothetical person sorta wanted to do the right thing, but couldn’t let it completely go.

 

[Olen_4504]

why would one DQ themself? please elaborate

 

[LawnMM]

 

[LawnMM]

Apparently it was Jim See of recent free recoil Fame, somebody dropped his name in the XTR3 thread

Not to derail too much, but is the rumor Jim See DQ'ed himself after winning the Tac Division true?

 

[LawnMM]

It’s all about ego and it’s demands to finish first in your mind. It sounds like this hypothetical person sorta wanted to do the right thing, but couldn’t let it completely go.

You can be first in your mind without being an ass in public. Ya know, "Damn self, if you had dialed the right dope, you'd have won" learn from the mistake, whatever it was, and move on.

This Kanye West bullshit needs to stop. We want more people to get out and compete? How about we do it by showing them we're worthy of spending the time around.

 

[LawnMM]

why would one DQ themself? please elaborate

In theory, it's good sportsmanship. If you touch off a round before you're ready and not aligned to the target, that's a Negligent Discharge. It's dangerous. It's supposed to be a DQ on the spot.

Sometimes an inexperienced RO might not realize what happened. So admitting you screwed up is graceful and in keeping with honesty and integrity. Like, "My bad, just let that one go before I was ready."

This other shit has nothing to do with good sportsmanship at all.

 

[Olen_4504]

In theory, it's good sportsmanship. If you touch off a round before you're ready and not aligned to the target, that's a Negligent Discharge. It's dangerous. It's supposed to be a DQ on the spot.

Sometimes an inexperienced RO might not realize what happened. So admitting you screwed up is graceful and in keeping with honesty and integrity. Like, "My bad, just let that one go before I was ready."

This other shit has nothing to do with good sportsmanship at all.

got it. thank you

 

[Nightraider]

Did anyone see the video on Shannon Kays facebook of the series winner dropping a rifle on a stage

 

[lash]

No, I didn’t, being Facebook non. Is it possible to post it here? I’m guessing it had to to with “free recoil”.

 

[LawnMM]

Did anyone see the video on Shannon Kays facebook of the series winner dropping a rifle on a stage

Is this the one where he swept the whole squad with the muzzle? Same story?

 

[Olen_4504]

I wanna see, I wanna see. No Facebook here

 

[Nightraider]

Is this the one where he swept the whole squad with the muzzle? Same story?

Yeah, all I saw was an Imgur video, but it looked bad, I saw it on Shannon's Facebook and pretty much it was gone as soon as it was posted.

 

[Lowlight]

When you look at what happened with the entire episode it sort of makes sense, but just looking at it from the outside, it was a total martyr move.

I spoke to several people who were there and it was not so cut and dry, and the story posted on FB was kinda embellished vs what was said at the time, which is why people looked down at the martyr post. But I get it, cause the dropped rifle was okay due to a technicality in the rules.

Most of the DQs were in the berm but guys lost a bit of control with their light triggers, and bang, the rifle shoots before the sights are on target. Which several told me was a bit extreme given the situations. Who knows, could be a bit of covering up for failed safety.

I have the better of the two videos, of course, it was sent to me asap, here is a screenshot cause I am not gonna host the video here.

The guys who listen to the Everyday Sniper Podcast were blowing up my phone over the "vindication" of me calling this out two weeks ago. I sort of described this exact situation and bang it happens. There are a lot of guys who qualified for the finale who really see this stuff and are not fans, so i get the calls.

What I find more interesting, the use of the coolers on this stage. it was basically a fuck it, anything goes deal and certain squads bought out coolers to use to stabilize the swing if you look at the bottom of the pole, that cooler is there to keep the pole from swinging. Some did it, other did not.

This is their idea of innovation, go to your car, break out a cooler, unfortunately between the cooler, the tripod, the game changer and when Matt reached for his Plump Pillow, the rifle fell over, bounced off the cooler, flagged everyone and landed on the ground facing behind the line.

This created a situation of, to DQ or not to DQ, it went back and forth, one minute he won, the next minute he was DQ, a minute later he won again.

Their game, their rules, but clearly safety is suffering and because they are the "PROS" nobody cares when a rifle bounces on the deck.

 

[Nightraider]

When you look at what happened with the entire episode it sort of makes sense, but just looking at it from the outside, it was a total martyr move.

I spoke to several people who were there and it was not so cut and dry, and the story posted on FB was kinda embellished vs what was said at the time, which is why people looked down at the martyr post. But I get it, cause the dropped rifle was okay due to a technicality in the rules.

Most of the DQs were in the berm but guys lost a bit of control with their light triggers, and bang, the rifle shoots before the sights are on target. Which several told me was a bit extreme given the situations. Who knows, could be a bit of covering up for failed safety.

I have the better of the two videos, of course, it was sent to me asap, here is a screenshot cause I am not gonna host the video here.

View attachment 6981321
View attachment 6981325

The guys who listen to the Everyday Sniper Podcast were blowing up my phone over the "vindication" of me calling this out two weeks ago. I sort of described this exact situation and bang it happens. There are a lot of guys who qualified for the finale who really see this stuff and are not fans, so i get the calls.

What I find more interesting, the use of the coolers on this stage. it was basically a fuck it, anything goes deal and certain squads bought out coolers to use to stabilize the swing if you look at the bottom of the pole, that cooler is there to keep the pole from swinging. Some did it, other did not.

This is their idea of innovation, go to your car, break out a cooler, unfortunately between the cooler, the tripod, the game changer and when Matt reached for his Plump Pillow, the rifle fell over, bounced off the cooler, flagged everyone and landed on the ground facing behind the line.

This created a situation of, to DQ or not to DQ, it went back and forth, one minute he won, the next minute he was DQ, a minute later he won again.

Their game, their rules, but clearly safety is suffering and because they are the "PROS" nobody cares when a rifle bounces on the deck.

And apparently anyone who questioned the call was "degrading" PRS, especially the guy that took the video, but that muzzle broke 180°, that's at least a stage DQ, according to their rules that day any DQ was a Match DQ.

 

[Lowlight]

Yes, they wanted this all private, it proves a ton of points, none of them good ones.

They push some mighty big brooms, and their rug is very heavy.

 

[lash]

In our little, unimportant neck of the woods, that would have been a match DQ at the least. Sorry, but that's what it was, like it or not. If little ol' me, Mr. Nobody, were to do that on a stage, I would be Dq'ed without hesitation. I would absolutely agree to that and leave the match, feeling quite chagrined and do my best to never do that ever again.

How do you think it would have played out if it were you? (Rhetorical question for those in the audience)

 

[Clans1971]

I have never shot a PRS match but have done my fair share of IDPA. You break the 180 and it’s a DQ. Seen Jerry Miculek get DQ for that and an AD. Not once did he complain safety is paramount in our sport.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I'm over here laughing my white ass off.

 

[Lowlight]

In the video, the RO did not even react... at least not in the version I have, you cannot see his face, but his body never moves.

He was reaching for a bag,

 

[Nightraider]

Apparently there are two videos, one that the match director saw and this one, but again, this is all 3rd hand from a few chaps that were there.

 

[Lowlight]

yes one from behind the RO, and then this one so two people were watching besides the RO at least.

I have not see the other video, but this one is pretty clear

 

[Nightraider]

yes one from behind the RO, and then this one so two people were watching besides the RO at least.

I have not see the other video, but this one is pretty clear

But the player is only a pawn, the whole cover up that took place was the real crime.

 

[onajoyride]

So the RO let it go due to inexperience so thats why it wasnt called at the outset. Second the rifle fell and was facing 90 degrees right not behind so technically not breaking the 180. Should have still been a stage dq especially given the MD stressing safety from the original safety brief. TheMD wasnt made aware of it until well after day 1 scores were released. First video was shown to the MD but was taken from behind and was inconclusive given the angle. Shooter and MD met to talk about it and shooter stressed everything was ok. Clearly it wasnt as grounding a rifle with a mag in mid stage should be at minimum a stage dq. The second video wasnt made available to the MD until after arbitration and award were handed out. Hence the changing scores after the fact as a debate happened regarding the score.

To Frank's point of this being a bad stage he is correct. Pretty lame stage design as it was inherently unsafe. I thought that from the moment I saw it until well after I shot it. First squad didnt use the cooler, second squad did and then the rest of the squads most likely did. I had friends in most of the squads and they all used the cooler as far as I know. I also have a friend in the first squad that pulled a bad score given the instability and no use of cooler. No reshoots were allowed.

Hope this clears everything up regarding this debacle.

 

[Nightraider]

So the RO let it go due to inexperience so thats why it wasnt called at the outset. Second the rifle fell and was facing 90 degrees right not behind so technically not breaking the 180. Should have still been a stage dq especially given the MD stressing safety from the original safety brief. TheMD wasnt made aware of it until well after day 1 scores were released. First video was shown to the MD but was taken from behind and was inconclusive given the angle. Shooter and MD met to talk about it and shooter stressed everything was ok. Clearly it wasnt as grounding a rifle with a mag in mid stage should be at minimum a stage dq. The second video wasnt made available to the MD until after arbitration and award were handed out. Hence the changing scores after the fact as a debate happened regarding the score.

To Frank's point of this being a bad stage he is correct. Pretty lame stage design as it was inherently unsafe. I thought that from the moment I saw it until well after I shot it. First squad didnt use the cooler, second squad did and then the rest of the squads most likely did. I had friends in most of the squads and they all used the cooler as far as I know. I also have a friend in the first squad that pulled a bad score given the instability and no use of cooler. No reshoots were allowed.

Hope this clears everything up regarding this debacle.

So what's your take on the sweeping this under the rug, since we're all in agreement that was a DQ?

 

[onajoyride]

I can tell you as far as the MD is concerned as soon as he was made aware of it no attempt was made to conceal the event. He immediately went to work with as much information as he could gather to make a judgment call. At no point pre arbitration and wards ceremony was the MD aware of the second video.

Frank claims that someone immediately sent it to him and refuses to host the video. I doubt that as the reason the screenshots he posted are from the second video that had a black and white filter on it and included the word wasted at the end of it. Most likely he pulled the video from 3rd or 4th hand public sources and is claiming to have special access.

 

[LawnMM]

The first ND I saw a guy was moving from one position to the second, gun was loaded, he hit the dirt and boom 12 feet in front of him. Match DQ on the spot. This was only the first or second match I'd been to and I remember thinking, "Man that sucks, his whole weekend is shot."

A match director more wise than myself replied, "That's how it has to be, if somebody takes a stray round the rest of their life is shot and so are our chances of ever hosting a match here in the future."

Safety first, and if you're going to DQ yourself then just do it with Grace and without the "I knew I'd really won but had to do the right thing" diatribe. This falls on the rest of us too. If you witness a rifle bouncing off the deck speak up. If they bury it at a match, bring it up here, nobody gains anything by hiding the bullshit.

 

[Lowlight]

My only real issue is the triggers guys are running I am sure very few are doing drop tests to see if these super light triggers will fire. I know CD tests rifles to see if butt dropping them will make them fire and I know some do. I did it at SHOT with the Bix and Andy some guys run, they fire on the drop test if set to low.

No, I knew about it Sunday Night, and the first person could not get me the video and originally they only had the first video, so I passed. I honestly was gonna sit on everything to see what is said (I could post the messages timestamps, but I am not outing anyone)

I got this one after, I was contacted on Sunday night about the issue, and then Monday and Tuesday more people reached out. I am not claiming special access, only that people use me like the complaint department and this was the better video that came out after.

Everyone I spoke to including today was there, only one person contacted me who was not.

Doubt me all you want, I have a copy of the complete video, yes it's the edited one but only because it was better

 

[onajoyride]

Everyone that has internet access has that video Frank. It's all over Facebook.

The person that had the video and sat on it until after the awards is the issue. That person knows what they had. To not make the md aware of it from very soon after it happened is where the cover up could be found. Could have avoided all the drama and not put the MD in a bad situation.

 

[kriller134]

So who’s the guy that dropped his rifle? Still utterly confused on how dropping your rifle is not a match dq?

 

[Lowlight]

I get it was on fb but the recent purge removed me, not everyone follows facebook and that drama was all your own,

Post a public FB link, you can share a FB video in here, everyone has it right.

You didnt see me exploit it, I just sat on it cause it proves several points, one of which you highlighted, the cover up.

Can’t blame me for this, yet it does validate a lot of what I have been saying.

I even replied to someone here on Monday in a PM, I was refraining from Public comment, until it landed here naturally. Many were on their phones and are not that savvy when it comes to capturing the video.

I love the deflections though, make it about me versus addressing the issues I point out.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Everyone that has internet access has that video Frank. It's all over Facebook.

The person that had the video and sat on it until after the awards is the issue. That person knows what they had. To not make the md aware of it from very soon after it happened is where the cover up could be found. Could have avoided all the drama and not put the MD in a bad situation.

Everyone on that squad that witnessed it and didn’t say something is equally guilty. I’m sure they did say something though, the opposite and probably ganged up on the RO to encourage him not call it. Sorry but that’s the truth.

If you’re gonna game that hard eventually it’s going to bite you in the ass. Or at least it should in this case and the rules should be the same for everyone.

 

[onajoyride]

I cant speak to the fact that they did or didnt gang up on the ro to keep him in the match. That doesn't sound correct. I have personally never seen that and anytime someone badges an ro I make it clear that's not the proper way to conduct yourself. At least with the guys I shoot with, that's never allowed or tolerated.

I agree that anyone in that squad that had it on video should have brought it up to the md. I think many of the guys didnt because the backlash for doing so without a proper video to support it could be intense and come across as being a crybaby.

Yea rules are there to keep us all safe and keep the firearms controlled and pointed in a safe direction. If they are violated then there needs to be consequences. I am all for safety as that's what helps us all attend and be safe.

 

[samb300]

My only real issue is the triggers guys are running I am sure very few are doing drop tests to see if these super light triggers will fire. I know CD tests rifles to see if butt dropping them will make them fire and I know some do. I did it at SHOT with the Bix and Andy some guys run, they fire on the drop test if set to low.

I've thought about this over the past couple years as well, single stage triggers getting lighter, into the single-digit ounce range. Especially before the AI Comp trigger, lots of guys with really light AI triggers adjusted way beyond the point of being drop safe. I tried to adjust mine in the same method, and anything below 2.5 POUNDS (not ounces) wasn't drop safe. To me, the safety of others in the event that I mess up is more important than a light trigger.

Although possibly hard to implement, the sport could benefit from some sort of minimum trigger weight OR drop-test procedure to vet rifles. Just because your XYZ brand trigger can adjust down to 2oz doesn't mean it's safe if it falls off a roof stage or some crazy Yeti-cooler/tripod/barricade contraption.

 

[LawnMM]

Somebody send me this video, would like to see it in motion and I'm not into zuckerbergs Facefuck creation so it's eluded me so far

 

[Nightraider]

I can tell you as far as the MD is concerned as soon as he was made aware of it no attempt was made to conceal the event. He immediately went to work with as much information as he could gather to make a judgment call. At no point pre arbitration and wards ceremony was the MD aware of the second video.

Frank claims that someone immediately sent it to him and refuses to host the video. I doubt that as the reason the screenshots he posted are from the second video that had a black and white filter on it and included the word wasted at the end of it. Most likely he pulled the video from 3rd or 4th hand public sources and is claiming to have special access.

Somebody send me this video, would like to see it in motion and I'm not into zuckerbergs Facefuck creation so it's eluded me so far

Check your messages good chap

 

[morganlamprecht]

the issue with the drop was the timing of the 2nd video

it happened, RO/MD/Shooter discussed it and viewed a video from one angle...agreed to move on

then after everything was said and done, the other video angle popped up and looked way worse...the MD and everyone present have admitted that

since the decision had already been made and the match went on, the general consensus was "decision stands"...theres no review of a touchdown on monday after the game is over to change the final score

yes, if i was RO'n that stage, i would have stopped him...but i wasnt there...ive seen guys trying to use bipods on rocks and have their rifles slip off the edge and fall over, as long as they stay pointed down range with bolt back...carry on...in this case, the rifle didnt stay down range, but its too late to change the scores now IMO

i was in squad 1 and shot that stage "as intended", and i can tell you shooting from a pipe suspended by chains in 15-20 mph winds is anything but safe...all of us had about a 1-2mil wobble zone

 

[NLivingston]

The way its been handled is somewhat concerning. I totally understand that a decision was made given what they had at the time, thats fine. I have an issue with it being swept under the rug and the flipflops. There was a statement made by the new series owner saying, among other things, that the shooter had seen the video, and being a great upstanding sportsman asked for a stage DQ and that was that. In that statement nobody was scolded for what was a massive safety issue, the ROs, the shooter, the rest of the squad, any of those 10+ people should have said something, the only person who caught any negative words was the person who took the video. This wasnt a rifle tilting over off its bipod, it was loose and tumbling, breaking way past 180. So the series leaderboard is updated and the stage DQ taken into account, then everything goes quiet and the shooter in question is back in 1st. Not my place to make those calls so, whatever. There still hasnt been any public acknowledgement or statement. Is safety a primary concern in this series? should I feel safe bringing friends and family to these events?

 

[morganlamprecht]

there was massive push back from the shooters who would have benefited from matt taking a DQ...for changing things after the decision and match was over...thats why there was a flip flop on the prs rankings

safety is a concern...but i still get flagged every match by numb nuts carrying their rifles in a carry handle...companies keep making and selling them...no one has stopped that yet, wheres the outrage?

 

[NLivingston]

safety is a concern...but i still get flagged every match by numb nuts carrying their rifles in a carry handle...companies keep making and selling them...no one has stopped that yet, wheres the outrage?

Im not a fan of being flagged constantly, and I'm not here to debate the fine points of match safety, but that happening behind the line with mags out and flags in is definitely different than a loaded rifle tumbling off a prop.

 

[Olen_4504]

my non-facebook self would like to see the video if someone wants to PM me.

for learning purposes

 

[leftyk82]

Im not a fan of being flagged constantly, and I'm not here to debate the fine points of match safety, but that happening behind the line with mags out and flags in is definitely different than a loaded rifle tumbling off a prop.

The scenario is different but the rules are the same; #1 Treat every firearm as if it's loaded. #2 Never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy.

 

[Mormegil87]

If it had been Joe "Middle Pack" shooter, would the situation had played out the same?

 

[morganlamprecht]

If it had been Joe "Middle Pack" shooter, would the situation had played out the same?

likely not...in a variety of ways, but there arent many "middle pack" shooters at the finale

there would have never been a video circulated and no one would have ever heard about it, if it was john doe shooter tho

 

[NLivingston]

The scenario is different but the rules are the same; #1 Treat every firearm as if it's loaded. #2 Never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy.

I dont disagree

 

[Mormegil87]

likely not...in a variety of ways, but there arent many "middle pack" shooters at the finale

there would have never been a video circulated and no one would have ever heard about it

To me, the fact that it's a finale is irrelevant.

Is there a standard? Was the standard met? Is the standard being applied equally?

 

[morganlamprecht]

theres not much that is "standard" if youve been to enough matches

some places are VERY strict...others, not so much

 

[Nightraider]

To me, the fact that it's a finale is irrelevant.

Is there a standard? Was the standard met? Is the standard being applied equally?

No, and the new owner seems to be not setting any better examples. The shooter is only the example, the reaction of the hierarchy is what most concerning. Top tier shooter, finale or not, that's a safety violation and should be called as such. There seemed to be an inclination of a foul because there are no pictures or media period of the participant with the video.

Next time a loaded muzzle is uncontrolled and you're around, what's going to be you're call?

NR

 

[morganlamprecht]

this is a good example of why ranges stress bolt back while moving and bolt open until sights are on target

mag was in the gun, but bolt was back...safe as it could have been considering a rifle bouncing all over

maybe this will also be a wake up call to MDs using extremely unstable props for artificial difficulty

 

[Nightraider]

this is a good example of why ranges stress bolt back while moving and bolt open until sights are on target

mag was in the gun, but bolt was back...safe as it could have been considering a rifle bouncing all over

maybe this will also be a wake up call to MDs using extremely unstable props for artificial difficulty

So the shooter assumed no fault for making a risky move and failing? It's now the MDs fault? That's preposterous, next you'll be lambasting ammo companies for missed shots. It's that mindset that's fanning the flames of this brush fire. "It's always someone else's fault" should be the new match slogan.