Scotty got his account updated, for free since Nick thinks all this is just about the money. LOL
No more air soft level he is now a full member
No more air soft level he is now a full member
PRS Talk If you DQ yourself, how do you claim to have won? Asking for a friend
- Thread starter LawnMM
- Start date
- Status
LOL thanks Frank!Scotty got his account updated, for free since Nick thinks all this is just about the money. LOL
No more air soft level he is now a full member
I knew I had an account I just couldn't remember what the passwords or the original e-mail was. I think I signed up under my AKO account and that thing has been dead since 2016.
Agreed, (Not Official I'm not speaking for the PRS) I think the definition of control is going to be soothing along the lines of attachment to the rifle. Loss of control is going to be complete loss of contact with the rifle ie dropped loss of control etc. I think a rifle can come off a barricade as long as the shooter maintains positive control and does not break the 120 rule as long as the bolt is open. IT's not a stage DQ if the shooter is bolt down and hot that is a wildly different potential outcome and should be at least a stage DQ
What are the rules going to be for the person shooting a semi-auto? Safety on and verbally stated that it is on has been a rule at my club for those shooting a semi while in a transition. Would the same apply for setting up on a barricade for said semi-auto? Don't flip that safety off until you are ready to shoot. But if the shooter does lose control and the rifle falls, does the RO stop the shooter and makes sure the safety is on before making a judgement call on whether to DQ or not? Just food for thought...
At what point should it be a match DQ? Honestly, I have seen more off obstacle things to worry about and I am not even talking about any match series in particular.
Believe me I am not tossing gas on - it is a real question I think needs to be considered.
As examples: (I get that in the below example all of these should be cleared already)
2X in a match (two different matches), "I" have dropped a rifle while hiking. Once the sling came out of a defective flush cup and once I was climbing a gate (ya, I know - dumb as, dumb does), both times I was completely separated from my rifle. Match DQ to me seems legit.
On the other hand, I have seen guys put their muzzle in someone face as they are not paying attention or walking and flagging every one behind them with some stupid carry or patrol caring not paying attention. Even carelessly staged guns..
Good! I would lump those into rifle getting kick over in the staging area and covered with cold range rules. I think most of this stuff applies to being on the clock. This I think is the major difference between our sport and many others. Last time I shot a USPSA match there wasn't any hiking, climbing or any other stuff that could cause a shooter to upgrade their holster to level 3 retention. Not on the clock how can we get a stage DQ if we aren't shooting?
Good question. Technically a hot rifle bolt closed. Gas guns would necessarily fall into a more strict set of rules.
Would it be too extreme if there were uspsa pcc type rules? Rifle cased/bagged and you can only take it out in designated areas or the firing line. And if you flag anyone while taking it out it’s a match DQ. And with semis while on the move on a stage no finger in the trigger guard or automatic match DQ. What do you think about that?
I’d hate carrying my rifle around in a case or bag personally...I sling it muzzle down every where I have to walk currently
So many of these match are field fire. The traditional thought process on square ranges just don’t really apply
Please excuse my ignorance, but what does that mean? Like literally a field or an open space?
Yes Sir. Think 20 shooting position on a mountain top 400 yards apart. No typical range infrastructure
Or positions all over a Florida cow pasture, including towers, barricades, shooting off of berms and plenty of hiking with your gear. Shooters are expected to conduct themselves a safe adults and everyone is expected to be part safety officer. 95% of the time, things are smooth.
Every so often there might be a ND. My experience has been that almost all NDs are due to light triggers (it’s a fact) and all of them are due to having your booger picker on the bang stick before you’re on target. That’s why almost all safety briefings include a requirement that you be on glass and on target before closing the bolt.
My heartburn about SH is people having a grand opinion of how things should be or how things should be done, criticize things they know nothing about, perpetuate bullshit and do so from behind a self-given “cool guy” nick name. Things are said in threads by people too chickenshit to say in public or to someone’s face. The anonymity breeds a gross embellishment of abilities, actual personal experience and first hand knowledge. Just my personal opinion. When no one knows who you are, you never really need to answer for what you put out there for all to see.
And then there are those who are known. And still dont give a fuck about their opinions. Which isnt a bad thing in this day and age
Gents. I’m an outsider and as an Australian, live in a country where the sorts of shooting opportunities you take for granted are simply unavailable to us, other than on an extremely pared-down scale. The number of national precision rifle matches we have across a very large continent can be counted on one hand. If law enforcement here had their way, it would be zero. I pose this not as a whine but as context for all of you who are involved in this two-way shitfight to consider - as in consider how lucky you are to have the luxury/right of choices, and what role you might have in improving things. Also consider what this argument looks like to those on the outside, regardless of so-called ‘status’. It’s ego-ridden and immature - complete with name calling. That is a negative contribution, is unprofessional/unbecoming and in no way does it contribute to any sort of fence-mending or reconciliation. It’s the sort of thing you’d expect from kids. If you’re a senior, experienced and/or sponsored shooter, you should be strongly considering what sort of ambassador you are, or appearance you are creating for your sport, series and sponsors. As it stands currently, it’s not a good one.
Thank you and for sure this has been a terrible year PR wise for the PRS. There had a been a large amount of trash thrown at the top shooters and the series. I could go on with a fairly healthy list and most of the stuff gets traction because there are elements of truth to all of them. We are lucky to have a robust schedule and the ability to shoot. I think attacks on shooters and the series could be handle much more professionally with out a doubt. I would really like to know where the animosity is coming from to even have a thread titled
If you DQ yourself, how do you claim to have won? Asking for a friend
Then the venom from folks that weren't there didn't shot the series or shoot in matches for that matter
IDK I try to keep it professional but I will ask some pointed but well deserved questions. Disagreeing on topics is a matter of civil discourse and in no way represents hostility.
@sstacllc . Fairly measured and I don’t disagree. The title of the thread is inflammatory, or at least the OP, in starting it off was ignorant of, or underestimated the amount of ill-feeling that it might generate, based on that which appears to have built up over a bad year as you describe it - and perhaps that ill-feeling has been building over an even longer period. The last couple of pages have seen people pull the stick back and level out, which is good to see. Fair and objective debate and respectful dissent is absolutely useful and should always be encouraged. Even better when a healthy dose of self-reflection gets mixed in.
I only know Shannon Kay by reputation - but I imagine if he can’t generate better conditions for success in 2019, then others would be hard pressed to. I hope that he gets the benefit of help from others, including Frank, who despite his diminutive size, carries a lot of stroke.
I only know Shannon Kay by reputation - but I imagine if he can’t generate better conditions for success in 2019, then others would be hard pressed to. I hope that he gets the benefit of help from others, including Frank, who despite his diminutive size, carries a lot of stroke.
Last edited:
I agree. IF safety is paramount (and it should be) how can dropping a weapon not be a serious offense? Because it did or didnt pass an imaginary line in my mind isnt the point. To me it is not so much what did happen as what could have happened. There or not, this seems to be a no brainer.
@sstacllc Scott, I think the title of the thread was referencing a different topic and individual than the video that we ended up discussing for the duration of the thread.
At the end of the day you are right though. The vitriol directed at other shooters has to be checked. The community needs to find a way to come together and find solutions to the issues that are brought up or the sports growth will stagnate and eventually shrink. I for one don't want to see that happen. This is the first year that I know of that my state is going to have a 2 Day National event. That's because of the growth of the sport. I also want to see growth because quite frankly it has provided a lot of people with jobs through the design of good products (yes, some are gimmicks but most have Merritt). That's what we need to keep sight of in the long run.
At the end of the day you are right though. The vitriol directed at other shooters has to be checked. The community needs to find a way to come together and find solutions to the issues that are brought up or the sports growth will stagnate and eventually shrink. I for one don't want to see that happen. This is the first year that I know of that my state is going to have a 2 Day National event. That's because of the growth of the sport. I also want to see growth because quite frankly it has provided a lot of people with jobs through the design of good products (yes, some are gimmicks but most have Merritt). That's what we need to keep sight of in the long run.
From me, someone who has never shot a match (any kind of rifle match) have few outlets for reference besides places like SH, and maybe watching some gluetube videos. This is my take away (first match for me is days away)
1) as a new guy, slooow the fk down. I’m not in a sprint race. I don’t have the skills to drive a rifle like other folks.
2) FCTS
Find the target
Close the bolt
Touch the trigger
Squeeze the trigger
This isn’t all of what’s required addressing a target, I know, but as a new shooter I’d rather be somewhat conscious of my moves, and avoid ND because I’m pecking for targets with a hot chamber and pointer on the trigger.
3) Learn as much as possible, while enjoying the company of like minded individuals.
Whether or not the 2019 PRS rule book is the gold standard and solution to everything, it stands as a great read for a novice!
BTW: Have been in the clay shooting sports since the late 90’s, so I’m guilty of resting barrels on my toes.?
1) as a new guy, slooow the fk down. I’m not in a sprint race. I don’t have the skills to drive a rifle like other folks.
2) FCTS
Find the target
Close the bolt
Touch the trigger
Squeeze the trigger
This isn’t all of what’s required addressing a target, I know, but as a new shooter I’d rather be somewhat conscious of my moves, and avoid ND because I’m pecking for targets with a hot chamber and pointer on the trigger.
3) Learn as much as possible, while enjoying the company of like minded individuals.
Whether or not the 2019 PRS rule book is the gold standard and solution to everything, it stands as a great read for a novice!
BTW: Have been in the clay shooting sports since the late 90’s, so I’m guilty of resting barrels on my toes.?
Well said For sure it is in all of our best interests to see folks succeed in the PR endeavor
I would tend to agree with you but what exactly constitutes a drop or loss of control? A guy reaching forward to adjust his by pod and the rifle rolls over on its side bolt back. Does this constitute a drop or loss of control? I'm not sure this subject is as cut and dry
There are a FUCK TON more experienced shooters here than you realize, and give me a FUCKING BREAK, you guys maybe at the top of your shooting GAME but understand you are in the MINORITY.
let's give you the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge 1500 members of the PRS, we all know most are not active nor are most shooting the required number of matches in order to attempt to qualify for the finale, but backing up, 1500 members. That is a drop in the bucket and the only thing that makes it appears bigger or better is the marketing and social media posts by those engaged in it. At the same time, those same members are 100% to blame for the reputation you have among those do not shoot these matches. IT'S ON YOU ALL not those pointing out the BS
Before you talk about chicken shits, how about after the jersey letter when I was public enemy number one. Less than a week later I drove 3 hours to Mill Creek (PRS EVENT) to meet and introduce myself to Brian Dennis. Before talking to him I walked EVERY SINGLE STAGE at that event and bunch of the biggest talking chicken shit motherfuckers was all there, and NOT ONE HAD A NEGATIVE WORD TO SAY TO ME. A bunch came up to me and laugh because they knew the deal. I even took selfies with a few of them.
So please spare me, and all of us, this is a social media platform, it's designed to promote discussion, unlike the private PRS stuff where you try to hide the shit. Just because someone doesn't have your level or experience doesn't make it any less valid.
Amazing how I was everyone's best buddy when I championed these causes, but as soon as you highlight the BS you become the bad guy. And now the site sucks yadda, yadda, but when we were promoting the favorite sons before anyone else, we were all rockstars here doing gods work.
Don't like it, sign out and dont' come back,
I’ve been relatively quiet on this thread, as I’m no big deal, but it occurs to me that those who are all that and a bag o’chips in PRS have forgotten where they came from. Exactly how do you think it looks for you “rock stars” to come on here and say that anyone who isn’t in the mile high club should just shut the hell up and that we are clueless in this subject?
By the way, since some may have missed it, the real subject here in this thread was safety and how it should be addressed going forward. If you missed that and think that it was about you or your best buds, then you need to take a step off of your cloud and looks at the world where 90% of the people who shoot in this sport are not full timers and can not afford the time away from their 5-7 days a week jobs to be Proffessionals like yourselves. And before you bore us with the details of your full time jobs and your personal sacrifices to become the best, realize that that is NOT the point.
The point is that the sport is largely supported by the hobbyists and the up-and-comers that fire the most part aire those that have achieved the success of making the final through the hard work and practice that is necessary to do so.
To disparage those supporters, however “inexperienced” or “not at the final” they were, is an unfortunate way to prove just how far out of touch some of the top shooters are. It’s sad and unfortunate.
Sure, there were some here that were “attacking” the good old boys club and should not have been, but to validate that perception by lashing out at anyone who is not a true operator and name calling every other shooter as a basement dwelling keyboard commando just justifies the perception that you all are trying to battle.
Okay, I guess I’m done, except to say that perception really is reality. It may not be your personal reality, but if you come across as a primodonna that perceives all others as lessors and trolls, people will perceive you as a good old boy elitist and treat you as such. Like it or not.
Shannon and Scott seem to understand this and are appropriately perceived well, as it should be.
By the way, since some may have missed it, the real subject here in this thread was safety and how it should be addressed going forward. If you missed that and think that it was about you or your best buds, then you need to take a step off of your cloud and looks at the world where 90% of the people who shoot in this sport are not full timers and can not afford the time away from their 5-7 days a week jobs to be Proffessionals like yourselves. And before you bore us with the details of your full time jobs and your personal sacrifices to become the best, realize that that is NOT the point.
The point is that the sport is largely supported by the hobbyists and the up-and-comers that fire the most part aire those that have achieved the success of making the final through the hard work and practice that is necessary to do so.
To disparage those supporters, however “inexperienced” or “not at the final” they were, is an unfortunate way to prove just how far out of touch some of the top shooters are. It’s sad and unfortunate.
Sure, there were some here that were “attacking” the good old boys club and should not have been, but to validate that perception by lashing out at anyone who is not a true operator and name calling every other shooter as a basement dwelling keyboard commando just justifies the perception that you all are trying to battle.
Okay, I guess I’m done, except to say that perception really is reality. It may not be your personal reality, but if you come across as a primodonna that perceives all others as lessors and trolls, people will perceive you as a good old boy elitist and treat you as such. Like it or not.
Shannon and Scott seem to understand this and are appropriately perceived well, as it should be.
I think the thread definitely moved into the constructive side when we started talking about how to improve safety. There have been innuendo and flame throwers brought out on both side of this debate. Actually there really ins't two side of a debate here it sure seems like it though. I'll be honest some of the comments on this thread seem innocent but really really got under my skin. I'm not sure why either. I think mostly because it stems from folks that have a bunch of knowledge about shooting and sports but admittedly don't shoot this sport yet will throw down and opinion like it an absolute. My philosophy going forward is if you, I or We are involved in Precision Rifle in any way as a trainer, vendor, shooter, by stander or in any capacity it is in all of our best interests for every single organization succeed.
Hi,
Here is another thought....if people would take the time to talk to individuals direct more often; then IMO a lot of things would not seem so bad.
Just as LL and Shannon have done!! Let the bosses of the 2 companies work it out, not the "employees".
Essentially Snipers Hide is the pride and joy of LL; and now the PRS is the pride and joy of Shannon.
Just as LL moderates and runs the site, Shannon does with the PRS.
We agree to the terms and conditions of SH when registering, just as becoming a member of the PRS you agree to their terms and conditions.
Both SH and the PRS must have policies to handle certain and different scenarios that can occur on each individual playground.
For example: Scott doesn't know me from shit or shine-o-la but he has listened and conversed with me on a few of my personal and business perceptions with the PRS.
Sincerely,
Theis
Here is another thought....if people would take the time to talk to individuals direct more often; then IMO a lot of things would not seem so bad.
Just as LL and Shannon have done!! Let the bosses of the 2 companies work it out, not the "employees".
Essentially Snipers Hide is the pride and joy of LL; and now the PRS is the pride and joy of Shannon.
Just as LL moderates and runs the site, Shannon does with the PRS.
We agree to the terms and conditions of SH when registering, just as becoming a member of the PRS you agree to their terms and conditions.
Both SH and the PRS must have policies to handle certain and different scenarios that can occur on each individual playground.
For example: Scott doesn't know me from shit or shine-o-la but he has listened and conversed with me on a few of my personal and business perceptions with the PRS.
Sincerely,
Theis
Thanks you Sir. I'm just a retired guy that loves to shoot. I have friends in the NRL, PRS and the SH. What I think is missing is when all of these organizations do well it better for all of us
Just a perspective from some guy who shoots a couple of national matches a year and a handful of local matches when he's not riding on a fire engine.
It's not about who is more OAF or who has more "likes" or the most friends or the most experienced or who's in or who's out of the boys club. It's about growing the sport in a safe and effective matter. It's about applying the standard equally to both the new shooter and the guy who's shot 100 matches. It's about drawing in new shooters and maintaining their interest so they become seasoned shooters. It's really not about us at all. It's about the next generation of shooters. All this arguing and ego stroking does at this point is hurt the sport. The "pros" or jerseyd guys or whatever they're called now, draw new shooters in and give them something to look forward to and strive for. The new shooters give the manufacturers and other companies a reason to sponsor shooters and matches in an effort to gain more customers.
Edit:. It isn't about any one individual shooter, it's bigger than that. No one is irreplaceable. We have a saying in the firehouse when a fire fighter retires: Dip your finger in a glass of water, then remove it. At some point it was like you were never there.
It's not about who is more OAF or who has more "likes" or the most friends or the most experienced or who's in or who's out of the boys club. It's about growing the sport in a safe and effective matter. It's about applying the standard equally to both the new shooter and the guy who's shot 100 matches. It's about drawing in new shooters and maintaining their interest so they become seasoned shooters. It's really not about us at all. It's about the next generation of shooters. All this arguing and ego stroking does at this point is hurt the sport. The "pros" or jerseyd guys or whatever they're called now, draw new shooters in and give them something to look forward to and strive for. The new shooters give the manufacturers and other companies a reason to sponsor shooters and matches in an effort to gain more customers.
Edit:. It isn't about any one individual shooter, it's bigger than that. No one is irreplaceable. We have a saying in the firehouse when a fire fighter retires: Dip your finger in a glass of water, then remove it. At some point it was like you were never there.
Last edited:
It's easy to take pokes at the jersey shooters. They are out there wearing it proudly, they earned it, it wasn't and isn't free, nothing is and they know they are in the spotlight. It's easy to poke at them they are the minority, poking at them from the side lines is not honorable. Poking down is not the answer either. Coming at a topic with an absolute opinion is intellectually flawed. I plan on being more active on the SH hopefully have some something to offer. This thread has been extremely challenging for me to keep my cool. I apologize if I offended anyone.
@sstacllc Scott I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be upset if someone came into my fire house with no experience and told my crew how to fight fire, set up a trench rescue or provide medical services. So I don't blame some of the more experienced guys for being upset over the comments some people make.
However the preception is there that the experienced guys think that they're the only opinions that matter. Right, wrong or indifferent; that perception is there. How to fix that? I'm not sure. I've met some of the most humble people I know in this sport. Many wear jerseys. Many dont. I've also met some of the most egotistical individuals I've ever met in this sport. Many wear jerseys. Many don't.
Like I said earlier, it's a new year, with new ownership, new rules and as we can see, new challenges. Let's all move forward from this point and try to make some improvements to 2019.
However the preception is there that the experienced guys think that they're the only opinions that matter. Right, wrong or indifferent; that perception is there. How to fix that? I'm not sure. I've met some of the most humble people I know in this sport. Many wear jerseys. Many dont. I've also met some of the most egotistical individuals I've ever met in this sport. Many wear jerseys. Many don't.
Like I said earlier, it's a new year, with new ownership, new rules and as we can see, new challenges. Let's all move forward from this point and try to make some improvements to 2019.
Amen, especially to the last bit.
I can see how one of my comments might've been irritating and I should've found a more constructive way of putting what I was trying to say.
The MD doesn’t take all the blame, but if I told you to shoot while hopping on one leg or you get a zero for the stage.......would I assume some of the blame for creating an unsafe shooting scenario???
Look at that gimmicky as fuck stage.
Shooter 100% should not have dropped the rifle.
MD 100% should rethink future props like that as well.
Easy Frank. At no point in your response did you actually address what I said. You're just spouting off and riding a fence. In one post you talk about rectifying a relationship & building bridges between you and the PRS but then here you are again highlighting some "Secret PRS shadow government" that "tries to hide shit." You cannot deny that you point the finger and have more negative than positive to say about the PRS. You'd be lying if you didn't think that was the general consensus. You and I BOTH know that Im aware of more of the ongoings between you and the PRS than most. You can't have it both ways my man. Yes, I will absolutely talk about chickenshits, I didn't say it was just within this site, Its everywhere, and Im over it. Again, if you don't think anonymity was a bullshit thing you wouldn't be so seemingly twisted up about the American Rifle Series FB posts. Ive not attacked you personally nor said anything negative about you publicly. That said, your fucking high if you think the majority of the replies in this thread come from Subject matter experts. maybe they're SME's somewhere else but in regard to this, they are dumber than a bag of hammers. Hiding in anonymity is bullshit, no one would dispute that. Ive never said this site sucks, I said that anonymity was one reason for my heartburn on here and I believe Ive stated my justification very clearly.
My opinion is that the PRS has a great reputation overall and Those that don't think that....well, it often seems rooted in jealousy and people hating just to hate. You're comparing traffic, participants, numbers, marketing & social media presence?...between PRS and SH?.....why? To what end? Are you twisted that the PRS is front & center and you have no actual or official involvement with it? "Jersey letter"...? No one even remembers that anymore. Plus everyone associated that letter and drama that followed with you shitting on the PRS yet again. We both know Dennis Bought the PRS just to buy it. I was there the exact moment and know the exact reason he bought it. Who cares that you drove 3 hours to meet him? Anyone would have, it'd be a smart move, as he was the new owner of an organization within the precision rifle community. Its business relationship building 101. No one gets a golf clap for that.
I'm personally damn proud of the reputation of the PRS and have high expectations of that positive reputation moving forward. I believe Shannon will do great things. I may not be as diplomatic as one should be in my responses but I couldn't care less. Id rather be an honest asshole than a fucking liar. If some people cant handle a few pokes with regard to my word choice, they need to toughen up. Using your own words "as soon as you highlight the BS you become the bad guy" is exactly why your trying to come off the top rope on me, Because I'm the "SH bad guy" in this thread. Im just shining light on the bullshit here. You had zero to do with the whole "incident" that brought me in here and had zero involvement in its resolution. Don't pretend your being a champion for the PRS and its reputation. You put up screenshots of a video specifically designed to be damaging and followed with an incredibly inaccurate description of events & decisions as though you were there. Of course it was sent to you. Its because people knew you'd put it up and and drama would ensue. Evidence to support my claim?.....we're on page 5 of this thread.
Robot vacuums are a great idea when they're just doing their thing and no one shits on the floor. But when there's shit, it takes that shit for a ride and makes a hell of a mess. < My analogy for social media platforms designed to promote discussion.
"You put up screenshots of a video specifically designed to be damaging and followed with an incredibly inaccurate description of events & decisions as though you were there."
Listen mate, you're going to tell me that you actually believe someone video taped that shooter and this incident to later release with full intent of attack the series?
NR
Listen mate, you're going to tell me that you actually believe someone video taped that shooter and this incident to later release with full intent of attack the series?
NR
Crazy we never missed you here over the last several years. I don't know who you are, but you come off and as a douche, thus lending credence to what everyone keeps saying. Your attempts to intimidate others into shutting up lends credence to what others are saying. You are representing the sport well.......
I can’t think of another reason to edit a video then send it out into social media after the whole thing is over. The timing of it. Looks like a duck
*gestures broadly at everything in this thread*
Last edited:
If that’s the case, which I don’t doubt you, shouldn’t the PRS take a proactive approach and implement a zero tolerance policy? I think people will learn better if you hit them in the pocketbook. I know I have. Anecdotally, I was DQ from a uspsa match for breaking the 180. I took a shitty angel to engage a target and barely broke the 180. Got the boot and now I know not to take that kind of approach. That DQ cost me 200 bucks in match fees.
- Status
