Improving My Reloading Process - Biggest Impact on SD

[El Viejo]

I have some very basic equipment and a simple reloading process, but I am curious where I can put some carefully budgeted funds to improve my reloads and overall accuracy. I am loading primarily for four cartridges: 6mm ARC, 6 GT, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 7-08. From the several threads on annealing and high-end powder measures, I think my next upgrade to my bench and process would be to anneal after steel pin and before any other case prep. The second area I am considering is upgrading my powder measure to reduce variation.

I use a LabRadar on all my loads to confirm MV and SD so that I have decent data for my Kestrel. Except for the 7-08 which runs almost twice as high, my SDs are usually in the 10-14 range and occasionally lower (15-20 shot groups). 100 yd, 10-shot group size for all four guns is consistently around 1 MOA with the 6 GT usually 0.6 MOA with Berger 105s. Even the 7-08 stays close to an inch with Barnes TSX and XBT. Both the 6 ARC and 6.5 CM are gas guns with 18" barrels with average MV of 2601 and 2541 respectively using 103 ELD-X and 143 ELD-X. Group sizes cluster around 3/4" and occasionally better.

Lately most of my shooting is over/around/through barricades to try to create realistic position practice for next seasons long range matches.

EQUIPMENT
Bonanaza Co-Ax Press
Whidden dies for 6GT and 6.5CM, Hornady for 6 ARC, and Redding for 7-08
Chargemaster 1500 for powder
Whidden and Sheridan gauges where available
Old style Lee hand primer
Area 419 funnel set
21st Century expander mandrels

PROCESS
Decap fired brass with Lyman Universal
Steel pin in Frankford Rotary Tumbler
run brass through expander mandrel
use Whidden case gauge to set shoulder bump
full length size with neck bushing based on make of brass
RCBS Trim Mate for primer pocket and slight chamfer to neck
Lee Hand Primer
Chargemaster to throw powder charge
Seating to COAL for 6 ARC and 6.5 CM (gas guns) and CBTO for 6 GT and 7-08
Tumble in Corn cob to clean off case lube

Shoot, rinse, and repeat.

In short, what's the best next step to improve consistency in my ammo? Anneal? Better powder measure? Something else?

 

[nn8734]

IMO most reloaders are competent and make loads that meet most needs…biggest area of improvement is reducing seating force so that sest pressure varies less from bullet to bullet. That should drive down MV variance and reduce vertical spread at distance, especially near or through the transonic regime.

 

[straightshooter1]

I have some very basic equipment and a simple reloading process, but I am curious where I can put some carefully budgeted funds to improve my reloads and overall accuracy. I am loading primarily for four cartridges: 6mm ARC, 6 GT, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 7-08. From the several threads on annealing and high-end powder measures, I think my next upgrade to my bench and process would be to anneal after steel pin and before any other case prep. The second area I am considering is upgrading my powder measure to reduce variation.

I use a LabRadar on all my loads to confirm MV and SD so that I have decent data for my Kestrel. Except for the 7-08 which runs almost twice as high, my SDs are usually in the 10-14 range and occasionally lower (15-20 shot groups). 100 yd, 10-shot group size for all four guns is consistently around 1 MOA with the 6 GT usually 0.6 MOA with Berger 105s. Even the 7-08 stays close to an inch with Barnes TSX and XBT. Both the 6 ARC and 6.5 CM are gas guns with 18" barrels with average MV of 2601 and 2541 respectively using 103 ELD-X and 143 ELD-X. Group sizes cluster around 3/4" and occasionally better.

Lately most of my shooting is over/around/through barricades to try to create realistic position practice for next seasons long range matches.

EQUIPMENT
Bonanaza Co-Ax Press
Whidden dies for 6GT and 6.5CM, Hornady for 6 ARC, and Redding for 7-08
Chargemaster 1500 for powder
Whidden and Sheridan gauges where available
Old style Lee hand primer
Area 419 funnel set
21st Century expander mandrels

PROCESS
Decap fired brass with Lyman Universal
Steel pin in Frankford Rotary Tumbler
run brass through expander mandrel
use Whidden case gauge to set shoulder bump
full length size with neck bushing based on make of brass
RCBS Trim Mate for primer pocket and slight chamfer to neck
Lee Hand Primer
Chargemaster to throw powder charge
Seating to COAL for 6 ARC and 6.5 CM (gas guns) and CBTO for 6 GT and 7-08
Tumble in Corn cob to clean off case lube

Shoot, rinse, and repeat.

In short, what's the best next step to improve consistency in my ammo? Anneal? Better powder measure? Something else?

From strictly an SD point of view, improving the accuracy of your powder weight can help a lot . . . particularly if a .14 gr variation can effect your SD numbers. Below is a comparison I did with some various powders using a fixed indicated weight on my Chargemaster and comparing that weight on my more accurate scale, the FX-120i (along with my Gem Pro 250 just to see how it compared too). The 120i definitly got me consistently into the single digit SD's.

Since you're not annealing, you neck tension control can be a big factor. After each firing the necks become more work hardened resulting in more springback for each subsequent reloading. And, there can be more variations from case to case in that springback. The less you work the neck when sizing the less you work harden the necks. This can be controlled by the use of various sized bushings and expander mandrels to give you the neck tension you're after. I prefer to anneal after every firing to get the consistency I'm after (keep in mind, we're mainly focusing on your issue for SD improvements). One can feel the improvement in seating pressure consistency with all this too, which is important for getting lower SD's.

You didn't mention if you lubed the inside of your necks. This can help also since you're apparently getting the necks really . . . . too clean. When I wet tumble with my Frankford Rotary Tumbler, I'll not use any pins; that way I have that nice residual powder coating still on the inside of the necks that acts like a lube.

 

[acourvil]

You don't say if you are doing anything to brush or lube the necks after steel pin tumbling, but if not, you might consider lubing the inside of the necks with dry lube. I think I get much better consistency in neck tension by doing that. That's the cheap suggestion.

The more costly suggestion would be to upgrade your scale/powder thrower with something like and AutoTrickler. My Chargemaster worked fine, and 90% of the charges would be fine, but after I got a better scale I did some samples and found that maybe 10% of the throws were outside of the desired range. With an AutoTrickler and a good scale you can reduce variability in your charges.

An annealer can help you get better consistency in neck tension, but I would upgrade powder measurement first.

 

[El Viejo]

From strictly an SD point of view, improving the accuracy of your powder weight can help a lot . . . particularly if a .14 gr variation can effect your SD numbers. Below is a comparison I did with some various powders using a fixed indicated weight on my Chargemaster and comparing that weight on my more accurate scale, the FX-120i (along with my Gem Pro 250 just to see how it compared too). The 120i definitly got me consistently into the single digit SD's.
View attachment 8016685

Since you're not annealing, you neck tension control can be a big factor. After each firing the necks become more work hardened resulting in more springback for each subsequent reloading. And, there can be more variations from case to case in that springback. The less you work the neck when sizing the less you work harden the necks. This can be controlled by the use of various sized bushings and expander mandrels to give you the neck tension you're after. I prefer to anneal after every firing to get the consistency I'm after (keep in mind, we're mainly focusing on your issue for SD improvements). One can feel the improvement in seating pressure consistency with all this too, which is important for getting lower SD's.

You didn't mention if you lubed the inside of your necks. This can help also since you're apparently getting the necks really . . . . too clean.

I use mostly Varget in 6 GT and 6 ARC, H4350 in 65 CM, and 4064 in 7-08. From your tables, it looks like all three powder measures are well under the 0.1 gr goal/spec of the CM1500. How much doe it cost yo go to the FX120i all in? Is it enough better than the GP-250 to spring for the extra dollars?

Especially since I am on the 4th or 5th pass on my 6 ARC brass (hoping 2023 sees some in the market), neck tension has been a big concern, and I use that as my excuse when I get a flyer. I use the expander mandrels especially on the gas gun brass which does get dinged up, but I can feel that all the cases are being work hardened.

Very good point on the dry lube for the neck! Thanks.

 

[El Viejo]

You don't say if you are doing anything to brush or lube the necks after steel pin tumbling, but if not, you might consider lubing the inside of the necks with dry lube. I think I get much better consistency in neck tension by doing that. That's the cheap suggestion.

The more costly suggestion would be to upgrade your scale/powder thrower with something like and AutoTrickler. My Chargemaster worked fine, and 90% of the charges would be fine, but after I got a better scale I did some samples and found that maybe 10% of the throws were outside of the desired range. With an AutoTrickler and a good scale you can reduce variability in your charges.

An annealer can help you get better consistency in neck tension, but I would upgrade powder measurement first.

The dry lube will happen on my next pass! What are we looking at for the AutoTrickler and FX120i? Any extra costs or just the base price of the units?

 

[El Viejo]

IMO most reloaders are competent and make loads that meet most needs…biggest area of improvement is reducing seating force so that sest pressure varies less from bullet to bullet. That should drive down MV variance and reduce vertical spread at distance, especially near or through the transonic regime.

That would suggest dry lube for the necks as a start. Are you suggesting annealing before improving powder measurement? I think my CM1500 is within spec but occasionally feeds a single extra kernel especially IMR 4064 or even H4350. 6 GT brass seems easy to obtain as is 65CM. Different story for 6 ARC and 7-08. Those cases will see a lot of reloading and work hardening. That has to change neck tension and seating pressure.

What's the best way to get started with annealing?

 

[straightshooter1]

I use mostly Varget in 6 GT and 6 ARC, H4350 in 65 CM, and 4064 in 7-08. From your tables, it looks like all three powder measures are well under the 0.1 gr goal/spec of the CM1500. How much doe it cost yo go to the FX120i all in? Is it enough better than the GP-250 to spring for the extra dollars?

Especially since I am on the 4th or 5th pass on my 6 ARC brass (hoping 2023 sees some in the market), neck tension has been a big concern, and I use that as my excuse when I get a flyer. I use the expander mandrels especially on the gas gun brass which does get dinged up, but I can feel that all the cases are being work hardened.

Very good point on the dry lube for the neck! Thanks.

Hmmmm??? 0.1 accuracy = +/- 0.1 gr = ES of .2 gr, so my 1.4 gr. ES results are better, but not great.

The FX 120i is not cheap and it run as low as $550 -$600 (often more). The best thing about the 120i is not only is it accurate, but it's fast and stable (it doesn't drift like other cheaper electronic scales). The GP-250 can be irritating as it tends to drift, though I developed a technique for keeping that better under control. There are some cheaper electronic scales that are similarly accurate. You just need to be aware of their susceptibility to drifting.

BTW: Autotrickler v3+ scale = ~$900

 

[El Viejo]

Hmmmm??? 0.1 accuracy = +/- 0.1 gr = ES of .2 gr, so my 1.4 gr. ES results are better, but not great.

The FX 120i is not cheap and it run as low as $550 -$600 (often more). The best thing about the 120i is not only is it accurate, but it's fast and stable (it doesn't drift like other cheaper electronic scales). The GP-250 can be irritating as it tends to drift, though I developed a technique for keeping that better under control. There are some cheaper electronic scales that are similarly accurate. You just need to be aware of their susceptibility to drifting.

BTW: Autotrickler v3+ scale = ~$900

The impact on SD and accuracy from more consistent powder charge is real, and if I were doing bench rest loads at a match with relatively loose necks, a better scale would clearly help. With positional shooting at 450 to 850 yards, my aging knees and eyes are more of an issue on group size than powder charge. That approach won't work with gas guns and magazines.

What I don't know and can't find any references on is how much consistent annealing helps with group size --- assuming that there is more variability in neck tension than in charge weight. For most of us that tension difference woud be hard to measure except on the target with real groups.

Looks like you have powder charge under control and can demonstrate the impact on groups and SD. How many reloads are you getting per case? How do you anneal?

 

[nn8734]

That would suggest dry lube for the necks as a start. Are you suggesting annealing before improving powder measurement? I think my CM1500 is within spec but occasionally feeds a single extra kernel especially IMR 4064 or even H4350. 6 GT brass seems easy to obtain as is 65CM. Different story for 6 ARC and 7-08. Those cases will see a lot of reloading and work hardening. That has to change neck tension and seating pressure.

What's the best way to get started with annealing?

Annealing: I actually don’t anneal as i keep literally thousands of pieces of 1x brass for each rilfe that i load for and am not even close to cycling through them all but will anneal once i do so as keeping the necks consistent is critical to keeping your load consistent, performance wisez

Dry neck lube definitely helps, especially if you wet tumble and remove all the carbon that was there uppn firing. I also would suggest the use of bushing dies (think you already do this), expander mandrels, pin gaugesand a hydro press w/seating force gauge to confirm/deny your brass prep methods are yielding consistent seating pressures from round to round.

That all said: you have to determine if the marginal cost in terms of time and money invested for new/fancier tooling is worth the performance gains. Based on your needs statement and performance requirements.

What are you asking each of your systems to do and how are they being applied? Some applications will require different levels of precision, require you to be less tolerant of variation than others.

Many folks get way too far imto the weeds in terms time and money sunk into reloading, chasing levels of precision well beyond what’s necessary to meet stated needs/requirements…

 

[Taylorbok]

Why are you expanding fired brass?

Bar none expander mandrels helped my accuracy the most, I can't really say how it affected my ES/SD because I never monitored that before but I am currently ES in the 20 range across 10 shots.

I run a bushing that is .003 under loaded diameter and then a mandrel that is .002" under bullet diameter.

 

[El Viejo]

Annealing: I actually don’t anneal as i keep literally thousands of pieces of 1x brass for each rilfe that i load for and am not even close to cycling through them all but will anneal once i do so as keeping the necks consistent is critical to keeping your load consistent, performance wisez

Dry neck lube definitely helps, especially if you wet tumble and remove all the carbon that was there uppn firing. I also would suggest the use of bushing dies (think you already do this), expander mandrels, pin gaugesand a hydro press w/seating force gauge to confirm/deny your brass prep methods are yielding consistent seating pressures from round to round.

That all said: you have to determine if the marginal cost in terms of time and money invested for new/fancier tooling is worth the performance gains. Based on your needs statement and performance requirements.

What are you asking each of your systems to do and how are they being applied? Some applications will require different levels of precision, require you to be less tolerant of variation than others.

Many folks get way too far imto the weeds in terms time and money sunk into reloading, chasing levels of precision well beyond what’s necessary to meet stated needs/requirements…

I would cheerfully buy 1000 rounds of virgin 6 ARC, but it's been a long time since the cartridge was released and the only ways to get more brass are "once-fired" from an unknown vendor or shooting Hornady factory ammo to get the brass.

I do use bushing dies and and minimal shoulder bump in full length sizing dies. That reduces the amount of case hardening by some degree.

The 6 GT is a Curtis Axiom in a Masterpiece chassis with a Leupold Mark 5HD. Definitely plan to run it in competition next spring. From what I can tell, positional practice is more important than raw accuracy. I think it helps my confidence to believe I misjudged the wind instead of blaming misses on poor ammo. A little extra effort in brass prep is worth it if I can measure smaller groups at 200 yds and believe that is also happening at 900 yards.

The 7-08 is definitely for hunting, but pronghorns can easily be 300 or even 400 yds where I hunt in Wyoming. I doubt ny cases will need to be reloaded more than 2 or 3 times - unless the gun and component market goes completely south.

Consistent neck tension on the 6 ARC AR-15 and 65CM LR308 is a must especially since I want to push them to the same distances as the 6 GT even though there are no gas gun stages for the local long range matches.

I think I am convincing myself that I really need annealing gear of some sort for Christmas.

 

[El Viejo]

Why are you expanding fired brass?

Bar none expander mandrels helped my accuracy the most, I can't really say how it affected my ES/SD because I never monitored that before but I am currently ES in the 20 range across 10 shots.

I run a bushing that is .003 under loaded diameter and then a mandrel that is .002" under bullet diameter.

No matter how carefully I gather brass the necks get dinged - maybe from stepping on them (aging eyes). Happens more with the gas guns. Like you I under-size the neck expansion and use .003 bushings except for the 6 GT which is .002 under.

 

[Taylorbok]

No matter how carefully I gather brass the necks get dinged - maybe from stepping on them (aging eyes). Happens more with the gas guns. Like you I under-size the neck expansion and use .003 bushings except for the 6 GT which is .002 under.

Ok ya if necks are dented gotta straighten out.
I'm kind of lost in your process then, are you setting final neck tension with a bushing, button or mandrel?

 

[straightshooter1]

The impact on SD and accuracy from more consistent powder charge is real, and if I were doing bench rest loads at a match with relatively loose necks, a better scale would clearly help. With positional shooting at 450 to 850 yards, my aging knees and eyes are more of an issue on group size than powder charge. That approach won't work with gas guns and magazines.

I know exactly what you mean and why I don't do positional shooting any longer. . . except maybe occasionally to see if I remember how.

What I don't know and can't find any references on is how much consistent annealing helps with group size --- assuming that there is more variability in neck tension than in charge weight. For most of us that tension difference woud be hard to measure except on the target with real groups.

There was some AMP (Annealing Made Perfect) testing where you can look at their tests and data to decide for yourself if the numbers make any sense for you. What I do know with my own experience is that on taking many detail measurements of my brass after sizing that I do get much more consistent case dimensions and can definitely feel the difference when seating my bullets and improvements in my chrono SD's and ES's. On my paper targets, I do see some difference, but not a lot. And if one is shooting steel or silhouettes, that small of improvement doesn't really matter, IMHO.

Looks like you have powder charge under control and can demonstrate the impact on groups and SD. How many reloads are you getting per case? How do you anneal?

I've gotten over 20 reloads with Lapua brass and even for brass like Federal, I get 12 or so on my .308 brass and firing moderate to hot loads. As I mentioned, I do anneal after every firing and I use an Annealeez with a swirl flame head to get the neck and shoulder hot enough as fast as I can to where I can see it start to glow in a very dark room. As soon as it starts to glow, the case comes out of the flame.

I don't clean my brass until after I anneal as the annealing process leaves a rough/tacky oxidation film layer that I want removed before I run them into my sizing dies. Though I focus on cleaning the outside, the inside isn't touched until after sized where I then dry tumble with medium sized rice that takes care of any that oxidation layer left inside. The end results look like this (7 reloads so far on this 6.5 PRC brass):

 

[El Viejo]

Ok ya if necks are dented gotta straighten out.
I'm kind of lost in your process then, are you setting final neck tension with a bushing, button or mandrel?

Bushing in a FL Whidden die.

 

[Baron23]

I have some very basic equipment and a simple reloading process, but I am curious where I can put some carefully budgeted funds to improve my reloads and overall accuracy. I am loading primarily for four cartridges: 6mm ARC, 6 GT, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 7-08. From the several threads on annealing and high-end powder measures, I think my next upgrade to my bench and process would be to anneal after steel pin and before any other case prep. The second area I am considering is upgrading my powder measure to reduce variation.

I use a LabRadar on all my loads to confirm MV and SD so that I have decent data for my Kestrel. Except for the 7-08 which runs almost twice as high, my SDs are usually in the 10-14 range and occasionally lower (15-20 shot groups). 100 yd, 10-shot group size for all four guns is consistently around 1 MOA with the 6 GT usually 0.6 MOA with Berger 105s. Even the 7-08 stays close to an inch with Barnes TSX and XBT. Both the 6 ARC and 6.5 CM are gas guns with 18" barrels with average MV of 2601 and 2541 respectively using 103 ELD-X and 143 ELD-X. Group sizes cluster around 3/4" and occasionally better.

Lately most of my shooting is over/around/through barricades to try to create realistic position practice for next seasons long range matches.

EQUIPMENT
Bonanaza Co-Ax Press
Whidden dies for 6GT and 6.5CM, Hornady for 6 ARC, and Redding for 7-08
Chargemaster 1500 for powder
Whidden and Sheridan gauges where available
Old style Lee hand primer
Area 419 funnel set
21st Century expander mandrels

PROCESS
Decap fired brass with Lyman Universal
Steel pin in Frankford Rotary Tumbler
run brass through expander mandrel
use Whidden case gauge to set shoulder bump
full length size with neck bushing based on make of brass
RCBS Trim Mate for primer pocket and slight chamfer to neck
Lee Hand Primer
Chargemaster to throw powder charge
Seating to COAL for 6 ARC and 6.5 CM (gas guns) and CBTO for 6 GT and 7-08
Tumble in Corn cob to clean off case lube

Shoot, rinse, and repeat.

In short, what's the best next step to improve consistency in my ammo? Anneal? Better powder measure? Something else?

I’m a bit confused…why do you open the necks w a mandrel before you full length size. I do just the opposite.

Although I understand that looking at “neck tension” from increase in neck OD, the truest direct measure that would also eliminate variance in neck brass thickness.

Therefore, I FL resized then open w the appropriate mandrel (I have 21st mandrel kit) to get a very precise ID which will define the degree of interference fit w the bullet.

But I’m willing to be schooled if there is a good reason to do it otherwise.

Also, you are tumbling fully loaded cartridges to remove sizing lube? I tumble cases as the first step then tumble again after trimming and just before priming. I then use graphite neck lube during seating.

Have you never lit one off in the tumbler??

 

[just browsing]

I’ll echo the same sentiment above. Expand necks after FL sizing as a means to set neck tension. That should be the last step before seating.

Wet/SS media tumbling is fine, but a couple recommendations:

1. Don’t leave the cases in for more than 45-60 minutes - you don’t want or need cases to be completely devoid of carbon as it helps with lubricity.

2. Ensure all of the “empty space” is taken up with water as it will prevent cases from getting peened.

Annealing is important every 2-3 firings so that could certainly be an option. Obviously a good powder measure helps too, but if you’re truly finding a ‘node’ with proper load development techniques, or unless you’re looking for BR consistency, I would contest that loading to the .02gr is sorta overkill.

Most nodes should be .2gr wide at a minimum, and honestly I’ve had some as high as .4gr. If you’re process is sound otherwise, then I don’t think the Chargemaster is a weak link in your system right now.

 

[El Viejo]

I know exactly what you mean and why I don't do positional shooting any longer. . . except maybe occasionally to see if I remember how.


There was some AMP (Annealing Made Perfect) testing where you can look at their tests and data to decide for yourself if the numbers make any sense for you. What I do know with my own experience is that on taking many detail measurements of my brass after sizing that I do get much more consistent case dimensions and can definitely feel the difference when seating my bullets and improvements in my chrono SD's and ES's. On my paper targets, I do see some difference, but not a lot. And if one is shooting steel or silhouettes, that small of improvement doesn't really matter, IMHO.


I've gotten over 20 reloads with Lapua brass and even for brass like Federal, I get 12 or so on my .308 brass and firing moderate to hot loads. As I mentioned, I do anneal after every firing and I use an Annealeez with a swirl flame head to get the neck and shoulder hot enough as fast as I can to where I can see it start to glow in a very dark room. As soon as it starts to glow, the case comes out of the flame.

I don't clean my brass until after I anneal as the annealing process leaves a rough/tacky oxidation film layer that I want removed before I run them into my sizing dies. Though I focus on cleaning the outside, the inside isn't touched until after sized where I then dry tumble with medium sized rice that takes care of any that oxidation layer left inside. The end results look like this (7 reloads so far on this 6.5 PRC brass):

View attachment 8016829

I know exactly what you mean and why I don't do positional shooting any longer. . . except maybe occasionally to see if I remember how.


There was some AMP (Annealing Made Perfect) testing where you can look at their tests and data to decide for yourself if the numbers make any sense for you. What I do know with my own experience is that on taking many detail measurements of my brass after sizing that I do get much more consistent case dimensions and can definitely feel the difference when seating my bullets and improvements in my chrono SD's and ES's. On my paper targets, I do see some difference, but not a lot. And if one is shooting steel or silhouettes, that small of improvement doesn't really matter, IMHO.


I've gotten over 20 reloads with Lapua brass and even for brass like Federal, I get 12 or so on my .308 brass and firing moderate to hot loads. As I mentioned, I do anneal after every firing and I use an Annealeez with a swirl flame head to get the neck and shoulder hot enough as fast as I can to where I can see it start to glow in a very dark room. As soon as it starts to glow, the case comes out of the flame.

I don't clean my brass until after I anneal as the annealing process leaves a rough/tacky oxidation film layer that I want removed before I run them into my sizing dies. Though I focus on cleaning the outside, the inside isn't touched until after sized where I then dry tumble with medium sized rice that takes care of any that oxidation layer left inside. The end results look like this (7 reloads so far on this 6.5 PRC brass):

View attachment 8016829

Especially with suppressed gas guns, my brass gets filthy hence the steel pin right after decapping. Would you anneal the dirty brass before steel pin?

 

[straightshooter1]

Especially with suppressed gas guns, my brass gets filthy hence the steel pin right after decapping. Would you anneal the dirty brass before steel pin?

When you say "filthy", it makes me imagine your brass caked in mud inside and out. So, no . . . I would not anneal before tumbling with steel pins. Having heavy dirt or mud clinging to the neck and shoulder would not be good for the annealing process to get uniform results.

A very good rinse after tumbling with pins to get rid of any cleaning chemical residue (e.g. soap, polish, Lemi Shine, etc.) left on the case will minimize the amount of the oxidation film left on the brass. And the sizing process can then be ok. But one will need to lube the inside of the necks for bullet seating. In the past, I've experimented with annealing after wet tumbling and then I'd size the brass, then use my vibrator tumbler, using medium grain rice, to removed the Imperial sizing wax. This also left a very light waxy film behind (feeling like the paint surface on my car after I've waxed it) where it worked well inside the neck to smooth bullet seating nicely.

 

[Taylorbok]

Try setting neck tension with a mandrel. A bushing will uniform the outside and push all the irregularities in. A mandrel will do the inside and push out the irregularities.

 

[mbeavers1]

Chargemaster is more than capable of making accurate ammo. Its not as good as a FX120, but thats a big jump. The first thig i would do is address the neck tension as many people are suggesting.

This is what I would do:

1. Scrap the steel pins. They clean good carbon from the inside of the case neck that acts as the dry lube being suggested. Buy a dry media tumbler then get on Amazon and by a 20lb bag of Nikishi Med Grain Sushi rice (google Primal Rights article on this). Just toss the brass in staight from the range - dont decap first. Forget about primer pockets...not worth it.

Upgrades by: eliminating peened case necks, prevents removal of good carbon, no need to dry, eliminates lead dust (rice absorbs it).

I use a arbor press w force gauge and see a demonstrable reduction is seating force range.

2. Get an annealer. AMP is great but you can do the same thing with an Anealeez. Annealing is a stress relief process that returns your case neck to the same 'hardness' and allows your brass to be sized the same way each time.

3. Size/decap together then mandrel. Use the mandrel to tweak your neck tension. Youd be surprised how much a sizing die alone will correct. If they are really bad, you may have to mandrel, size, mandrel. A mandrel is the last thing to touch my case neck every time. Get a TiN one from Sinclair ($30) it will prevent galling of the neck ID and prevent having to lube case necks.

4. Chamfer and deburr every time - especially if you are married to the steel pins. This prevents bullets from catching on anything.

When you start getting this process right you will notice that your CBTO measurement variability will decrease -ie. No adjusting seater on every round to keep seating depth constant.

This is all made easier if you start with good brass - definitely not mixed headstamps. Good brass also has less case volume variation that exasperates MV ES issues (case volume and charge weight) because you are fighting two variables at once. Pressure (MV) and case volume are closely linked.

 

[El Viejo]

I’m a bit confused…why do you open the necks w a mandrel before you full length size. I do just the opposite.

Although I understand that looking at “neck tension” from increase in neck OD, the truest direct measure that would also eliminate variance in neck brass thickness.

Therefore, I FL resized then open w the appropriate mandrel (I have 21st mandrel kit) to get a very precise ID which will define the degree of interference fit w the bullet.

But I’m willing to be schooled if there is a good reason to do it otherwise.

Also, you are tumbling fully loaded cartridges to remove sizing lube? I tumble cases as the first step then tumble again after trimming and just before priming. I then use graphite neck lube during seating.

Have you never lit one off in the tumbler??

Some good questions.

In my first step, the under-sized mandrel only returns dinged case mouths to almost round. Since the cases are decapped using a Lyman Universal Decapper, the necks never see a button at the resizing stage. My full-length sizing dies allow me to bump the shoulder in the die body but neck size with a bushing selected to be .002 to .004 under the diameter of a case with a seated bullet. I think we get to the same neck tension - just different dies and process. If I understand your process, the necks are resized when you decap leaving them tight enough to hold a bullet but not necessarily uniform. Then you use the 21st mandrel set to open the cases on the resized necks to a known ID before seating or working the case necks twice. Since my undersized expander is used only to restore roundness and only on those cases that visually need it, the actual work hardening only occurs with the neck size bushing providing a uniform OD.

Yes, the final tumble is done with fully loaded cartridges. Never had one light up.

The one additional step I will definitely add to my basic process is to dry lube the necks.

 

[Taylorbok]

I think we get to the same neck tension - just different dies and process.

possibly the same neck tension but any of the issues with your necks are now pronounced inside the neck instead of outside like it would be if a mandrel was your last step.

Which way do you think will affect your projectile more?

 

[El Viejo]

I’ll echo the same sentiment above. Expand necks after FL sizing as a means to set neck tension. That should be the last step before seating.

Wet/SS media tumbling is fine, but a couple recommendations:

1. Don’t leave the cases in for more than 45-60 minutes - you don’t want or need cases to be completely devoid of carbon as it helps with lubricity.

2. Ensure all of the “empty space” is taken up with water as it will prevent cases from getting peened.

Annealing is important every 2-3 firings so that could certainly be an option. Obviously a good powder measure helps too, but if you’re truly finding a ‘node’ with proper load development techniques, or unless you’re looking for BR consistency, I would contest that loading to the .02gr is sorta overkill.

Most nodes should be .2gr wide at a minimum, and honestly I’ve had some as high as .4gr. If you’re process is sound otherwise, then I don’t think the Chargemaster is a weak link in your system right now.

Without annealing, I think getting a uniform OD results in working the brass less. With an annealer (now for sure on my Christmas list), focus on ID should get slightly more consistent neck tension.

I normally run the steel pin (7 liter capacity) with a mix of 100-150 rds of GAP/Hornady 6 GT (after every 2nd or 3rd firing), 150-200 rds of Hornady 65 CM (every firing), 100-150 rds of Hornady 6 ARC (every time - almost as carbon covered as the suppressed 65 CM), and 100-200 rds of 5.56 Lake City (also suppressor dirty). One hour leaves some of the carbon on the outside (not sure about the inside or case mouth). Two hours results in everything being clean enough. Three hours is overkill with shiny new brass.

Since I am not chasing max MV, my choice of nodes compensates for any variance in my CM1500 - I think.

With the input from you and straightshooter, I am leaning to the Annealeze Gen III. Shooting suppressed gas guns makes steel pin almost mandatory. Dry neck lube has to become a part of the drill as does chamfering after each cleaning.

Thanks for the input. I just need to find more trigger time with barrels, barricades, tank traps, and a clock. Amazing how quickly even 100 yd group size opens up.

 

[El Viejo]

possibly the same neck tension but any of the issues with your necks are now pronounced inside the neck instead of outside like it would be if a mandrel was your last step.

Which way do you think will affect your projectile more?

Without an annealer, work hardening may be a bigger issue than ID. With annealing, a focus on ID should result in more consistent results.

 

[canezach]

In my experience, the single largest improvement in ES and SD numbers came from buying consistent brass. Switching from something like Hornady to Alpha or Lapua brass made a huge difference. I can't stress this enough. Annealing is great and so are all the other steps, but consistent internal capacity will be the single greatest improvement you can make. If you dont buy better brass, you can weight sort the brass you have. The second largest improvement came from consistent neck tension after I bought a mandrel die. Powder charge weight had surprisingly little effect, as long as you're using a decent scale and you're not loading one round with 41.6 grains and the next with 41.9 grains, and even then, if you've ever tested charge weights, you'll see minor increases in charge weight will increase the average velocity slightly, but there is still significant overlap in the individual velocities at this two weights. I loaded single digit SD ammo on a beam scale and a ChargeMaster way before I bought a AutoTrickler.

 

[rustyinbend]

In short, what's the best next step to improve consistency in my ammo? Anneal? Better powder measure? Something else?

Either an Arbor Press w/ Micrometer (cheapest) ... or AMP Press (expensive but awesome) ... and Inline Seating Dies (Wilson's are great). The ability to accurately measure seating force and neck tension have changed the way I prepare my cases, and given me the ability to "cull from the herd" any seating anomalies before I shoot them and they ruin my SD's and Groups.

 

[rustyinbend]

Oh BTW ... annealing probably comes before any tools for seating force measurement. I consider the "Annealing" step to be mandatory. Go buy an AMP ... and skip the whole "propane mess".

 

[SalomonQST99]

1. PROCESS
2. Decap fired brass with Lyman Universal
3. Steel pin in Frankford Rotary Tumbler
4. run brass through expander mandrel
5. use Whidden case gauge to set shoulder bump
6. full length size with neck bushing based on make of brass
7. RCBS Trim Mate for primer pocket and slight chamfer to neck
8. Tumble in Corn cob to clean off case lube
9. Lee Hand Primer
10. Chargemaster to throw powder charge
11. Seating to COAL for 6 ARC and 6.5 CM (gas guns) and CBTO for 6 GT and 7-08

My 2cents would be to move up dry tumbling. I don't know if lube has any affect on the primer or the powder, but I do think it's good to prime and charge on clean cases.

 

[Baron23]

the necks are resized when you decap leaving them tight enough to hold a bullet but not necessarily uniform. Then you use the 21st mandrel set to open the cases on the resized necks to a known ID before seating or working the case necks twice.

Close but not exactly.

I FL size without ball or decapping pin, so neck is smaller than desired, and then open it with the mandrel. Not really concerned about how concentric is the neck (dings and other insults to roundness) at this point in the process.

Then I mandrel to size, trim with a Giraud trimmer, then tumble again to remove case lube.

I use a Lee decapping die (as they have an undersized pin that works for Lapua 6.5 CM brass with small flash hole). I used to decap prior the first tumbling but got tired of digging walnut meda out of the primer pockets and I didn't see the tumbling doing much to clean those pockets anyway. So now, decap at the end of sizing/trimming.

Best of luck.

 

[El Viejo]

1. PROCESS
2. Decap fired brass with Lyman Universal
3. Steel pin in Frankford Rotary Tumbler
4. run brass through expander mandrel
5. use Whidden case gauge to set shoulder bump
6. full length size with neck bushing based on make of brass
7. RCBS Trim Mate for primer pocket and slight chamfer to neck
8. Tumble in Corn cob to clean off case lube
9. Lee Hand Primer
10. Chargemaster to throw powder charge
11. Seating to COAL for 6 ARC and 6.5 CM (gas guns) and CBTO for 6 GT and 7-08

My 2cents would be to move up dry tumbling. I don't know if lube has any affect on the primer or the powder, but I do think it's good to prime and charge on clean cases.

For everything done on the Bonanza Co-Ax, your method would result in handling clean brass. My only concern would be dry media (walnut or corn cob) being stuck in the flash hole or in the primer pocket. How do you avoid that?

 

[SalomonQST99]

For everything done on the Bonanza Co-Ax, your method would result in handling clean brass. My only concern would be dry media (walnut or corn cob) being stuck in the flash hole or in the primer pocket. How do you avoid that?

I don't think you can avoid a final visual check before primer seating. The question would be is the visual check more efficient than risking some level of contamination of the powder and primer.

 

[El Viejo]

In my experience, the single largest improvement in ES and SD numbers came from buying consistent brass. Switching from something like Hornady to Alpha or Lapua brass made a huge difference. I can't stress this enough. Annealing is great and so are all the other steps, but consistent internal capacity will be the single greatest improvement you can make. If you dont buy better brass, you can weight sort the brass you have. The second largest improvement came from consistent neck tension after I bought a mandrel die. Powder charge weight had surprisingly little effect, as long as you're using a decent scale and you're not loading one round with 41.6 grains and the next with 41.9 grains. I loaded single digit SD ammo on a beam scale and a ChargeMaster way before I bought a AutoTrickler.

Right on. Good brass is key. It would be great if either Lapua or Alpha did 6 ARC. When I bought my first batch of GAP 6 GT, Alpha was out of stock. I may get 200 rounds of Alpha 6 GT just to compare. With the setup for 65CM LR308, I got 100 rounds of Nosler (junk), 100 rounds of Lapua LRP and 200 rounds of SRP, and 400 rounds of once-fired Hornady LRP. I figured I would do all of my testing and fixing with the 1X Hornady.

Consistent neck tension post-annealing and dry lube will be the next two changes in the process. Glad to hear about the CM1500. Given that conclusion, why spring for the AutoTrickler and 120i?

 

[Taylorbok]

Glad to hear about the CM1500. Given that conclusion, why spring for the AutoTrickler and 120i?

My main reason was I wanted one.
I had a CM lite before and my SD/ES didn't seem to change much.
The V4 is faster especially with large charges (100gr ish) and I have the piece of mind that it's exact or very close.

When I got my 120i I weighed 10 charges from my CM lite and the variance was .1 grain

 

[El Viejo]

I don't think you can avoid a final visual check before primer seating. The question would be is the visual check more efficient than risking some level of contamination of the powder and primer.

It's easy enough to see or even feel an obstruction in the primer pocket - part of the reason I use the Lee primer. Seeing a tiny piece of walnut in the flash hole on the interior - not so easy. How do you do it?

 

[canezach]

Right on. Good brass is key. It would be great if either Lapua or Alpha did 6 ARC. When I bought my first batch of GAP 6 GT, Alpha was out of stock. I may get 200 rounds of Alpha 6 GT just to compare. With the setup for 65CM LR308, I got 100 rounds of Nosler (junk), 100 rounds of Lapua LRP and 200 rounds of SRP, and 400 rounds of once-fired Hornady LRP. I figured I would do all of my testing and fixing with the 1X Hornady.

Consistent neck tension post-annealing and dry lube will be the next two changes in the process. Glad to hear about the CM1500. Given that conclusion, why spring for the AutoTrickler and 120i?

I bought the Auto Trickler solely for speed of throwing charges, not necessarily because it was more accurate than the other scales. You can jailbreak your ChargeMaster to adjust the settings, but my issue was overthrows, so I could adjust the speed settings and take a little longer to throw a charge or I could speed it up and deal with the occasional overthrow. Granted, it's not like the ChargeMaster was overthrowing by 0.2 grains, but if my charge is 42.0, the OCD part of me doesn't want to see 42.1 on the display. The Auto Trickler simply throws accurate charges in significantly less time than the ChargeMaster and if it overthrows, it's only a kernel or two, not a full tenth of a grain.

 

[Taylorbok]

@canezach I recently watched an F class John video about overthrows vs speed trade off and he’s got it pretty dialed to maximize his efficiency. But he doesn’t seat while he throws, One step at a time for him.

I believe he had speed maxed out and expecting 1/10 overthrows was still saving him like 15% time vs perfect throws every time

 

[Baron23]

Seeing a tiny piece of walnut in the flash hole on the interior - not so easy. How do you do it?

Yo won't...in my experience, that's absolutely not a problem. Any media remaining in the case after running in the brass-media separator falls out when the case is held neck side down...and you can tap it on the edge of whatever you are keeping your cases in (me, its a plastic tub).

Media in the flash hole is apparent from the bottom outside and I just poke it out with a little pick tool I have. Not an issue but it is a bit time consuming cleaning the bit that clogs up the primer pockets which is why I'm transitioning (haha) to popping the primer out at the back end of sizing/trimming/2nd cleaning

Cheers

 

[canezach]

@canezach I recently watched an F class John video about overthrows vs speed trade off and he’s got it pretty dialed to maximize his efficiency. But he doesn’t seat while he throws, One step at a time for him.

I believe he had speed maxed out and expecting 1/10 overthrows was still saving him like 15% time vs perfect throws every time

I'm sure he had his dialed in. I had mine mostly dialed in, but the Auto Trickler was still faster. I also experienced a few more overthrows than 1 in 10. Not much more, maybe 3 or 4 out of 20, so not many more, but enough that it caused my OCD to go haywire. In the grand scheme of things, depending on cartridge/case capacity, 0.1 doesn't affect the velocity much. In a 6.5 Creedmoor, it amounts to something like 9 fps if I remember correctly, so it's a very minor increase, but for some reason, seeing 42.1 when I wanted 42.0 caused me grief

 

[jhunter]

Any brass that has a flash hole that has been punched will have burs and show on your radar.

I split 1000 Hornady 6 creedmoor brass with a friend. He cleaned up the flash holes and I did not . Same process and same load resulted in me having a 9 SD and him producing a 6 SD. This is usually a one and done process but the benefits of breaking up carbon in the flash holes every so often will show through SD. This includes brass with drilled flash holes.

 

[El Viejo]

Any brass that has a flash hole that has been punched will have burs and show on your radar.

I split 1000 Hornady 6 creedmoor brass with a friend. He cleaned up the flash holes and I did not . Same process and same load resulted in me having a 9 SD and him producing a 6 SD. This is usually a one and done process but the benefits of breaking up carbon in the flash holes every so often will show through SD. This includes brass with drilled flash holes.

Good info! Couple of questions.
1. How large were the sample sizes?
2. Did you subsequently clean your flash holes, and see a similar improvement?
3. I'm guessing from 6CM and low SD that these are bolt guns. Is either one suppressed?
4. Is steel pin a part of your case prep?

 

[bax]

I have some very basic equipment and a simple reloading process, but I am curious where I can put some carefully budgeted funds to improve my reloads and overall accuracy.
...
In short, what's the best next step to improve consistency in my ammo? Anneal? Better powder measure? Something else?

Then you said, "I think I am convincing myself that I really need annealing gear of some sort for Christmas."

There are no special qualifications to have opinions. Keep that in mind when evaluating my comments.

This comment is Too Long In the end, targets matter more than the rest of tools, process, and components.

First, I suggest this:

• Evaluate your neck tension. First, buy some pin gauges. Take 10 or 20 pieces of brass, perform your standard process then measure the neck ID. This method assumes that, over time, all of your case necks have acquired the same work hardness condition. If the neck ID is the same but the hardness is different, you will have different neck tension. You may wish to anneal just to cure that problem.
• If measurement reveals that neck tension is an issue (I try to keep mine less than plus or minus 0.001. For 30-caliber I want mostly .304, I will accept .305 but not .303 and not .306), then anneal to soften the necks for the rest of the brass-working steps. I anneal every time.
• Mandrel before sizing to eliminate the dings. Size the case. Mandrel after sizing to set the neck tension. As pointed out by others, I want the neck ID to be smooth - mandrel-after-sizing does that for me.
• You may be able to skip the mandrel-before. If you can skip it, there is less work hardening.
• After all that, trim. I am unfussy about the specific length - just make them the same plus or minus a few thou. Checking targets, I cannot tell the difference between 308 cases trimmed to 2.005 and 2.015, I usually go for 2.010. FWIW, I use a Girard.
• There is one other little-discussed thing you can do. If you have not-fancy brass (that is, not Lapua) consider deburring flash holes. All of my Lapua brass doesn't need it. It is a one-time thing. It seems to help on targets. I think that it is most helpful if you have a piece of brass with big nasty burrs on it.
• After those steps and keeping in mind your other steps, I do not know what else you can do to the brass that will be measurable on the target.

Second, evaluate your powder throw. Borrow or buy a precision scale. It should be stable and accurate to 0.02 grains (there are 350,000 of those per pound) or 0.001 grams (there are 453,600 of those per pound). A load cell scale is probably not good enough. I have an expensive load-cell scale. It is milligram-accurate but it is not stable.

Throw 25 or 50 changes on the Chargemaster, weigh each one on the precision scale, write down the numbers.

If your Chargemaster holds plus or minus 0.02 grains, don't change anything - and don't bash it, that is a good one. If it doesn't hold plus or minus 0.02 Gr and your style of shooting demands high precision, consider one of Adam's toys or consider modifying your process. I love mine. By the way, one grain of IMR 4064 weighs a little less than 0.02 grains. One grain of IMR 7828 weighs a bit more than 0.02 grains. I refuse to cut grains of powder, I just can't shoot that well. Those powder grain weights are why I suggest a scale with 0.02 grain precision.

How do you seat bullets? As an unrepentant former benchrest shooter, I use an arbor press and Wilson hand dies. For precision shooting, I have not bothered to evaluate other methods. I suspect that there are at least a few others on here with my degree of OCD. I do not ever measure concentricity. This may be a personal failing - I just don't do it.

For what its worth, I tumble the lube off before trim. It reduces the lube on my hands during prime, charge, and seat. Probably makes no difference on targets. Like you I prime cases one at a time.

Last comment, I dry lube necks when expanding the neck after sizing. Pick up the case, dip the neck into graphite, put in press and run over the mandrel, pull out of press, toss into basket, repeat.

 

[El Viejo]

Then you said, "I think I am convincing myself that I really need annealing gear of some sort for Christmas."

There are no special qualifications to have opinions. Keep that in mind when evaluating my comments.

This comment is Too Long In the end, targets matter more than the rest of tools, process, and components.

First, I suggest this:

• Evaluate your neck tension. First, buy some pin gauges. Take 10 or 20 pieces of brass, perform your standard process then measure the neck ID. This method assumes that, over time, all of your case necks have acquired the same work hardness condition. If the neck ID is the same but the hardness is different, you will have different neck tension. You may wish to anneal just to cure that problem.
• If measurement reveals that neck tension is an issue (I try to keep mine less than plus or minus 0.001. For 30-caliber I want mostly .304, I will accept .305 but not .303 and not .306), then anneal to soften the necks for the rest of the brass-working steps. I anneal every time.
• Mandrel before sizing to eliminate the dings. Size the case. Mandrel after sizing to set the neck tension. As pointed out by others, I want the neck ID to be smooth - mandrel-after-sizing does that for me.
• You may be able to skip the mandrel-before. If you can skip it, there is less work hardening.
• After all that, trim. I am unfussy about the specific length - just make them the same plus or minus a few thou. Checking targets, I cannot tell the difference between 308 cases trimmed to 2.005 and 2.015, I usually go for 2.010. FWIW, I use a Girard.
• There is one other little-discussed thing you can do. If you have not-fancy brass (that is, not Lapua) consider deburring flash holes. All of my Lapua brass doesn't need it. It is a one-time thing. It seems to help on targets. I think that it is most helpful if you have a piece of brass with big nasty burrs on it.
• After those steps and keeping in mind your other steps, I do not know what else you can do to the brass that will be measurable on the target.

Second, evaluate your powder throw. Borrow or buy a precision scale. It should be stable and accurate to 0.02 grains (there are 350,000 of those per pound) or 0.001 grams (there are 453,600 of those per pound). A load cell scale is probably not good enough. I have an expensive load-cell scale. It is milligram-accurate but it is not stable.

Throw 25 or 50 changes on the Chargemaster, weigh each one on the precision scale, write down the numbers.

If your Chargemaster holds plus or minus 0.02 grains, don't change anything - and don't bash it, that is a good one. If it doesn't hold plus or minus 0.02 Gr and your style of shooting demands high precision, consider one of Adam's toys or consider modifying your process. I love mine. By the way, one grain of IMR 4064 weighs a little less than 0.02 grains. One grain of IMR 7828 weighs a bit more than 0.02 grains. I refuse to cut grains of powder, I just can't shoot that well. Those powder grain weights are why I suggest a scale with 0.02 grain precision.

How do you seat bullets? As an unrepentant former benchrest shooter, I use an arbor press and Wilson hand dies. For precision shooting, I have not bothered to evaluate other methods. I suspect that there are at least a few others on here with my degree of OCD. I do not ever measure concentricity. This may be a personal failing - I just don't do it.

For what its worth, I tumble the lube off before trim. It reduces the lube on my hands during prime, charge, and seat. Probably makes no difference on targets. Like you I prime cases one at a time.

Last comment, I dry lube necks when expanding the neck after sizing. Pick up the case, dip the neck into graphite, put in press and run over the mandrel, pull out of press, toss into basket, repeat.

Thanks for taking the time for a great reply. NOT too long. Now, this reply really is too long.

1. What pin gauges would you suggest?

2. Are you using a .304 mandrel or do use a .305 to allow for spring back? Is a .004 difference enough tension for a gas gun?

3. I have been using 21st Century mandrels and die bodies with a window. What are you currently using?

4. Less than 5% of my brass gets an undersized mandrel (.240 for 6 mm and .260 for 6.5) before resizing. The only purpose is to eliminate flat spots in the case mouth that sometimes result from the gas guns. I never have this problem on my 6 GT bolt gun. Darned if I know why it happens at all.

5. What tool do you use to debur flash holes and make sure that you don't remove more than necessary?

6. I do all of my 5.56 case prep on a Forcht Auto-Drive 1050 after a dry tumble in walnut to get most of the crud off the outside of the case body. The last step on that machine's tool head is a Dillon auto trim using their trim die which has a very tight neck. Since my 5.56 brass is handled very roughly between shooting and processing and may have crimped primer pockets, I decap, remove crimp, confirm more or less concentric case mouth (slight under size), and resize with a small base sizing die before the Dillon trim die.

Then, that brass goes to steel pin for two plus hours and then a drier. With a separate tool head on a 650, I use a mandrel to open the cases to my seating tension, prime, powder, and use a bullet feeder to drop the bullets for seating.

With that setup, how would you dry lube the necks after drying but before dumping them in the 650 case feeder?

7. I will see if I can bring my CM1500 to a friend's reloading room to check my ChargeMaster throws on his 120i.

8. I have been using Whidden micrometer dies for seating. I can check to see if there is a measurable on-target difference between the co-ax and an arbor press. I have a collection of 35 year old Wilson seating dies for 223, 243, and 308 from my early days of reloading. My arbor press got lost or left behind in one of the two divorces and six moves since then. Any thoughts on a good used arbor press? I will have to pick up new dies for 6 ARC, 6 GT, and 65 CM since none of those had been launched long, long ago.

9. I prefer handling clean brass especially after trimming, chamfering, etc. Do you use rice or corn cob?

 

[bax]

Thanks for taking the time for a great reply. NOT too long. Now, this reply really is too long.

1. What pin gauges would you suggest? I used these https://www.mcmaster.com/gauges/plug-gauges-for-inside-diameters/class-z-go-plug-gauges/

2. Are you using a .304 mandrel or do use a .305 to allow for spring back? Is a .004 difference enough tension for a gas gun? I always anneal so the brass is soft. I use a .332 Wilson button and a .3060 21st century mandrel. I get consistent .304-.305. I shoot this in bolt and gas guns.

3. I have been using 21st Century mandrels and die bodies with a window. What are you currently using? yep, 21st Century. I have a short and long body.

4. Less than 5% of my brass gets an undersized mandrel (.240 for 6 mm and .260 for 6.5) before resizing. The only purpose is to eliminate flat spots in the case mouth that sometimes result from the gas guns. I never have this problem on my 6 GT bolt gun. Darned if I know why it happens at all. I don't know, you're the expert on this. Here is what I think: flat spots happen when the bolt has cycled all the way to the rear and extracted the case from the chamber. The ejector kicks the case out of the ejection port. (a) The case is in flight when the bolt cycles forward and it bounces off the front edge of the ejection port (buffer spring may be too stiff) or (b) the ejector is so lively that the case comes out of the ejection port going backward and does a 180 and the case mouth bounces off the bump right behind the ejection port (ejector spring may be too stout). I could be totally full of crap but that is my guess. There is always that part where you step on the cases ...

5. What tool do you use to debur flash holes and make sure that you don't remove more than necessary? I have a tool that is not made any more. I stick it in there and start turning. The objective is to get rid of burrs, not cut metal. When it turns smoothly, I'm done. Dump out the chips and go. In my opinion, this little "do it once for each case" step helps a lot.

6. I do all of my 5.56 case prep on a Forcht Auto-Drive 1050 after a dry tumble in walnut to get most of the crud off the outside of the case body. The last step on that machine's tool head is a Dillon auto trim using their trim die which has a very tight neck. Since my 5.56 brass is handled very roughly between shooting and processing and may have crimped primer pockets, I decap, remove crimp, confirm more or less concentric case mouth (slight under size), and resize with a small base sizing die before the Dillon trim die.

Then, that brass goes to steel pin for two plus hours and then a drier. With a separate tool head on a 650, I use a mandrel to open the cases to my seating tension, prime, powder, and use a bullet feeder to drop the bullets for seating.

With that setup, how would you dry lube the necks after drying but before dumping them in the 650 case feeder? I would not use dry lube on 5.56. When I do 5.56, I tumble clean, then run it through a 550 to size, decap, prime and mandrel necks. If the brass needs decrimp, I size and decap and mandrel the neck on the 550. Then decrimp on a dillon super swage. Then prime on the 550. I use graphite when processing 308 and 300 PRC on a single-stage press. I happen to use a "mature" RCBS A2 press. I own three of them and I gave one to a son. They are prehistoric but hell for stout. Y'all can laugh but they make good ammo and they never, ever break.

7. I will see if I can bring my CM1500 to a friend's reloading room to check my ChargeMaster throws on his 120i. I predict that this will be instructive. When throwing charges on the CM, do it just like you do at home. Maybe take an ammo block full of cases, throw powder into 50. When the block is full of powder, pour out each case and weigh it. You don't care what order - you are just going for statistics - max, min, average, standard deviation. Use Excel. In my case, I know that powder weight deviation more than 0.02 grains can be seen on the target. I wager that your standard deviation will be more than that, maybe a lot more - mine was. So now I own a good scale.

8. I have been using Whidden micrometer dies for seating. I can check to see if there is a measurable on-target difference between the co-ax and an arbor press. I have a collection of 35 year old Wilson seating dies for 223, 243, and 308 from my early days of reloading. My arbor press got lost or left behind in one of the two divorces and six moves since then. Any thoughts on a good used arbor press? I will have to pick up new dies for 6 ARC, 6 GT, and 65 CM since none of those had been launched long, long ago. I inferred that the arbor press is a leftover from my BR days. If you use good dies, I suspect that your method will yield roughly the same results as I get.

9. I prefer handling clean brass especially after trimming, chamfering, etc. Do you use rice or corn cob? I use corn cob. I buy it in large bags from one of the industrial supply houses - get a large size so it doesn't get stuck in the flashhole. It doesn't cost much and does an adequate job. I also use flitz for polish.

 

[jhunter]

Good info! Couple of questions.
1. How large were the sample sizes?
2. Did you subsequently clean your flash holes, and see a similar improvement?
3. I'm guessing from 6CM and low SD that these are bolt guns. Is either one suppressed?
4. Is steel pin a part of your case prep?

1. We shot several seasons of PR comps with this brass
2. No I couldn’t find a reason to do so. The question should be, who hit more targets?
3. Bolt Guns
4. Irrelevant. We both prepped after every firing with a Giraud

 

[MakeSawdust]

I used to love reloading when I shot only a few hundred rounds a year. Now I shoot a lot of local and regional prs style matches. I did not want to suck and realized quickly that you have to shoot and dryfire a shitload to be at the top of the standings.

Reloading became a means to an end. If I can ever become financially successful enough to pay a boutique reloading shop to do it for me, I will never load another round again.

That said, there are some damn good shooters around me that place high in national level matches. That means I have to shoot very well if I want to be close to the top of the standings.

If you want to reload as a hobby, that is one thing. If you want to reload to shoot prs, that is another. The ONLY thing that matters is groups on target. NOT SD and ES. The #1 thing is to use GOOD brass and bullets. You can start with Lapua and Berger and be done or you can experiment.

I have other guns that I consider toys that are hotrod 6mm, but when I want to place as high as possible, I run a 6 Dasher shooting 108 Bergers over varget in formed Lapua brass. The gun will effortlessly shoot 10 shot groups under 1/2 moa. Most 5 shot groups are 1/4 - 3/8 moa.

Based on the people who have replied that reload as a hobby or have a significant case of ocd, my process is laughable.

I flame anneal every 3 firings with a homemade machine that spins the case in the flame and then drops it.

I lube cases with lanolin/alcohol mix and resize in a forster fl die.

I tumble in medium grain rice.
I inside chamfer the case mouth.
I prime with a Lee hand primer.
I drop a charge with the Autotrickler V3.
I seat a bullet with the Forster seating die that came in the 2 die set.

My reloading press is a Lee challenger from 2005.

I know 6 Dasher is easy to reload for. I have also had success loading under half moa ammo with Lee dies and the same process in 223, 22/250, 243, and 243 Ackley. It does not have to be rocket science.

If you want to have fun with your reloading hobby, by all means, spend away. If you want to excel at PRS, here are the things that make the biggest difference in precision in my opinion.

1) A quality barrel blank chambered by a damn good gunsmith.

2) Use Lapua brass and Berger bullets. I have had good luck with Peterson brass as well and some guys seem to like ATIPs.

This will net you a gun capable of sub 3/8 moa accuracy. After that, spend all of you shooting time and money working on the shooter. I have a 22 trainer and a 223 trainer. Also have a range out the back door.

I know this is long, but I have seen people struggle and think it is the ammo. I want to help people understand and avoid this. This is not elr or br. A good gun fed even good factory ammo will win with a good shooter.

Reloading is only the place to spend your money if the intent is to tinker and have fun with reloading. If the intent is to improve your results at prs shooting, I would suggest spending no more on reloading and spend it all on ammo, barrels, rangetime and entry fees. Investing in super high end reloading equipment and thinking it will solve your problems in prs is likely to leave you frustrated and broke.

 

[El Viejo]

I lube cases with lanolin/alcohol mix and resize in a forster fl die.

Is there any difference between having the neck sized in a FL die or in a Whidden or Redding FL die with a neck bushing other than the bushing size compared to the FL default?

Do you run a mandrel into the neck or just use the default neck tension in your FL die? Do you dry lube the necks before charging and seating?

I drop a charge with the Autotrickler V3.

Compared to my ancient Chargemaster 1500, that's pricey gear. Could you get your same group sizes with a less expensive powder measure?

I seat a bullet with the Forster seating die that came in the 2 die set.

Me too.

1) A quality barrel blank chambered by a damn good gunsmith.

2) Use Lapua brass and Berger bullets. I have had good luck with Peterson brass as well and some guys seem to like ATIPs.

The bolt gun I will start shooting at local matches next year is an MPA PMR in 6 GT. Super easy load development. 3/8" to 1/2" groups from a bench. Mostly 1 MOA from position practice. Sometimes a lot worse when I'm running a practice on the clock.

Given the NAMMO announcement this month, I doubt we will see Lapua jump into either 6 GT or 6 ARC soon, and Alpha still does not do 6 ARC. In the meantime, I have 400 GAP cases for the GT - no problems so far EXCEPT on the initial firing. Alpha on my next batch. I'm on the 6th reload for the 6 ARC brass which all came from factory loaded ammo. I may need to form from Lapua 6.5 Grendel IF I can find any. I just hope Hornady releases some 6 ARC brass to the market next quarter.

I use Berger 105s, 108s, and 109s depending on what I can scrounge. Most of my 65 CM has been 140 ELD-M simply because of availability. But group size is between .6 and 1.2 in an LR308 gas gun. No complaints.

I have a 22 trainer and a 223 trainer. Also have a range out the back door.

That makes lot of sense. What glass do you run on the trainers? Same as your 6 Dasher? Are the trainers standard bolt guns or custom rifles with the same trigger as your Dasher?

 

[Baron23]

1. What pin gauges would you suggest?

Vermont Gauge carried by Travers. ZZ class. Just get the SS ones and not the Black Guard. They run about $4.75 and come in increments of .0005. They are sold as + or - which I generally understand has to do with the direction of the resulting tolerance (but I may be wrong about this). Get all of one type or the other. I went w plus and for our application I don’t think it makes a tinkers damn either way.

Class ZZ Pin Gages | Travers Tool

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[MarkyMark007]

View attachment 8016685

you show us how good your scales are.
but how much your muzzle velocity improves bcause of this?