Ingenuity Precision trickler

[4O6shootist]

@Ingenuity1 do I need to calibrate every time a switch powders? I do a lot of load development for myself as well as friends and I'm swapping to different powders every 20-30 rounds often. This seems like a possibly longer setup time than my current v3+ip setup.

 

[Kiba]

@Ingenuity1 do I need to calibrate every time a switch powders? I do a lot of load development for myself as well as friends and I'm swapping to different powders every 20-30 rounds often. This seems like a possibly longer setup time than my current v3+ip setup.

Paul mentioned you could save calibrations for different powders, so once you calibrate a powder you should be able to recall the calibration from memory and go.

 

[4O6shootist]

Paul mentioned you could save calibrations for different powders, so once you calibrate a powder you should be able to recall the calibration from memory and go.

Hmmmmm wonder how many calibrations it'll save. I have 8-10 different powders I use regularly.

 

[nalye]

Hmmmmm wonder how many calibrations it'll save. I have 8-10 different powders I use regularly.

From the Youtube video:

 

[akh223]

One solution would be to take any cup, and figure out how to install some thing in the bottom of it that mitigate the energy transfer and bounce

Maybe as somebody noted above, spraying some automotive undercoating or some thing inside of them

Line-X anyone?

My guess is all the coatings would be sticky and the powder wont come out well. Might have to use some graphite or something to combat that.

 

[Jrb572]

Maybe they still make it. It was called plasti dip or something similar. But you could coat plier handles or whatever you wanted to.

But my best cup is a stainless shot glass I got with a bottle of wild turkey and it fits perfectly into the handle that came with the glass V3 one.

 

[akh223]

Maybe they still make it. It was called plasti dip or something similar. But you could coat plier handles or whatever you wanted to.

But my best cup is a stainless shot glass I got with a bottle of wild turkey and it fits perfectly into the handle that came with the glass V3 one.

Yup, we talked about the stainless cup that comes with TinCup whiskey 6 weeks ago in this thread.

Shot glass with 3d printed handle

My guess is the small stainless shot cup wont hold enough for the current calibration routine that the bulk dump needs.

 

[Ingenuity1]

 

[Ingenuity1]

Yup, we talked about the stainless cup that comes with TinCup whiskey 6 weeks ago in this thread.

Shot glass with 3d printed handle

My guess is the small stainless shot cup wont hold enough for the current calibration routine that the bulk dump needs.

All you guys talking about stainless shot cups are using them on systems where the powder is already going through a baffle drop before it gets there. NOT THE SAME!

 

[jzerfoss]

It's funny how people are complaining about the time-line and trying to get new add ons/features added at the same time.... If a Dixie cup works well I'm cool with that. A handle would be nice but would be super easy to make one at home with stuff from the junk drawer. Glue and a cut popsicle stick for example. The thrower and trickler quality are far more important.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I'd be totally fine with a 3d printed "cup handle " for Dixie cups and just put one of those old time Dixie cup dispensers on the wall behind my scale on my bench. My grandma had one when I was kid and it holds a bunch of them. That may be the best solution.

Lots of guys here can print a handle the cup just drops into and then replace it as needed. We'd also have Dixie cups for cleaning solution and stuff when we clean rifles so, it would be pretty sweet to have around anyway.

There's an engineering principle that applies here. "Don't let great get in the way of good".....

Paul also wouldn't need to supply it unless he wanted to and it wouldn't slow anything down. If that's what he's using, then the rest of us should strongly consider it too. If a better cup ever comes along well, we just love buying more bs so that sure won't be an issue

 

[Jrb572]

All you guys talking about stainless shot cups are using them on systems where the powder is already going through a baffle drop before it gets there. NOT THE SAME!

So the Dixie is the cup of choice then? Not a deal breaker just curious.

 

[Kiba]

All you guys talking about stainless shot cups are using them on systems where the powder is already going through a baffle drop before it gets there. NOT THE SAME!

Exactly!

I fought with this 7 years ago on my automated Harrell's bulk dropper with a high speed servo that I was integrating with the V1. The servo I'm using can cycle the Harrell's from closed to full open in about 0.18 seconds at full speed, so it dumps the powder charge much quicker than say a V2 or V3 autothrow.

A fast, unimpeded drop of powder really bounces/splashes the kernels and plays hell with the scale and also makes a mess. That initial charge "slamming" into the scale can also momentarily shock the pan making the scale momentarily read above the target weight, which means some programming to work around that.

My workaround for the mess and scale shock issue was a tall stainless shot cup, slowing the servo down a bit in the code to spread out the powder drop time, and also putting a couple gentle bends in the drop tube near the exit to slow down the kernels slightly before going into the cup. I chose to sacrifice some speed for a more consistent and less messy bulk drop cycle.

Your system using gravity to rapidly feed and having what appears to be a straight shot from the dropper internals to the cup is about the worst case scenario that I was testing and fighting with 7 years ago with my system. I wish I had tried a Dixie cup, lol. I'm going to pick some up to test and return the servo on my Harrell's to full speed and see if the Dixie cup will take care of the scale shock and powder splash issues I was having when running the servo at full speed.

 

[Ingenuity1]

Exactly!

I fought with this 7 years ago on my automated Harrell's bulk dropper with a high speed servo that I was integrating with the V1. The servo I'm using can cycle the Harrell's from closed to full open in about 0.18 seconds at full speed, so it dumps the powder charge much quicker than say a V2 or V3 autothrow.

A fast, unimpeded drop off powder really bounces/splashes the kernels and plays hell with the scale and also makes a mess. That initial charge "slamming" into the scale can also momentarily shock the pan making the scale momentarily read above the target weight, which means some programming to work around that.

My workaround for the mess and scale shock issue was a tall stainless shot cup, slowing the servo down a bit in the code to spread out the powder drop time, and also putting a couple gentle bends in the drop tube near the exit to slow down the kernels slightly before going into the cup. I chose to sacrifice some speed for a more consistent and less messy bulk drop cycle.

Your system using gravity to rapidly feed and having what appears to be a straight shot from the dropper internals to the cup is about the worst case scenario that I was testing and fighting with 7 years ago with my system. I wish I had tried a Dixie cup, lol. I'm going to pick some up to test and return the servo on my Harrell's to full speed and see if the Dixie cup will take care of the scale shock and powder splash issues I was having when running the servo at full speed.

Only down side to the Dixie is the inside bottom has a seam around it to the wall and ball powder will get stuck in there.
Nobody fret yet, I still have a few tricks up my sleeve to test yet before I give up.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Only down side to the Dixie is the inside bottom has a seam around it to the wall and ball powder will get stuck in there.
Nobody fret yet, I still have a few tricks up my sleeve to test yet before I give up.

Hmmmm. Yeah that could be an issue. Seems like there would be some kind of design solution here though. Hopefully you can get it figured out.

My 419 cup doesn't do too terrible with splash now that I put a cut down piece of brass on the end of the dropper funnel piece to extend it so that it's barely above the cup enough to slid the cup in and out. With a little piece of heat shrink tube added on that to further slow the powder down, it only splashes with like one or two kernels or balls evey 4 or 5 drops maybe. I can just knock it off and move on, but it would be nice for it to be completely splash free of course.

Wonder if there's a "slide" type of tube thing that could be added to the dropper bottom to make the powder have to turn slightly before it goes down or something combined with a styled cup that would have a slight gorde type shape? Seems as though if the cup opening was smaller than the cup cavity space below the opening the splash wouldn't be possible to get out of the cup? Just thinking out loud here. I'm sure you're way ahead of me here though

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Worth the wait gents. I loading at 3-4 rounds a minute to include throwing powder and seating a bullet. Super fast and super accurate. Averaging 8 seconds per throw (Varget 30.0 grains).

 

[secondofangle2]

^ are you testing the dropper? or what setup are you reporting on?

 

[4O6shootist]

How bout take some silicone and coat the bottom of a metal or glass cup? Idk gotta be some way. Perhaps get a can of flex seal and coat inside a cheap Amazon metal shot cup and see what happens.

 

[CK1.0]

Choice 2 oz. Red Plastic Shot Cup - 50/Pack

When it comes to your large events and celebrations, stock up on this Choice 2 oz. red plastic shot cup! Made of polystyrene plastic for maximum durability with a bright red color and classic design, this shot cup is an economical alternative to traditional glassware. This shot cup is perfect...

www.webstaurantstore.com

 

[Schw15]

Choice 2 oz. Red Plastic Shot Cup - 50/Pack

When it comes to your large events and celebrations, stock up on this Choice 2 oz. red plastic shot cup! Made of polystyrene plastic for maximum durability with a bright red color and classic design, this shot cup is an economical alternative to traditional glassware. This shot cup is perfect...

www.webstaurantstore.com

That could work good specially with the ball powder.

 

[Schw15]

With the Dixie cup could you just use some glue or silicone the seem on the bottom the prevent ball powder hang ups?

 

[Ingenuity1]

With the Dixie cup could you just use some glue or silicone the seem on the bottom the prevent ball powder hang ups?

So I checked and the ones I have are 3oz non waxed. I’m hoping the waxed ones might fill the crack inside maybe.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

So I checked and the ones I have are 3oz non waxed. I’m hoping the waxed ones might fill the crack inside maybe.

They make plastic ones too that are exactly that size. They have em at my dentist office. They may work well and not have the edge issue inside the cup

 

[Ingenuity1]

They make plastic ones too that are exactly that size. They have em at my dentist office. They may work well and not have the edge issue inside the cup

I’ll look but not likely. The bottom on those is not elevated

 

[Kiba]

There are quite a few 3oz disposable plastic bathroom / mouthwash cups with elevated bottoms that might be worth testing. Quite a few to pick from on Amazon, provided what you receive matches the pictures...

 

[Ingenuity1]

This is an elevated bottom. I have not seen this in plastic.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I guess this is a dumb idea/question but thata not stopped me before...

Could a cup be made that would have an elevated bottom like that but allow for a screw on bottom so that heavy tin foil or something could be used to make the bottom then screw on the bottom ring to hold the foil tight? Seems like that would recreate the same phenomenon that makes the Dixie cup work so well? Or something like that? Probably would need something that wouldn't crinkle up to make the bottom part so powder wouldn't get stuck. Not sure if another material could make the bottom and be flexible enough to absorb the powder energy from being dropped. Just a thought that probably won't work or be practical to do.

These little shot glasses seem to but the bottom has got to be more rigid than the paper cup so don't think it would have the same effect.

 

[secondofangle2]

you can simulate the elevated bottom by stacking two plastic/paper cups - usually there will be a small space in between that will effectively raise the inner cup to create the drum batter head effect

Indeed you could use a steel/glass/alloy/plastic/printed outer cup with a dixie liner

 

[Kiba]

This is an elevated bottom. I have not seen this in plastic.View attachment 8275873

I've never seen a plastic cup with a bottom exactly like that either, probably because of the difference in making a paper cup vs a molded plastic cup.

The plastic cups usually have about an 1/8" ring around the circumference that is flat and supports the cup, but inside of that 1/8" ring the bottom is elevated slightly.

Here's some 3oz mouthwash cups from Amazon...

Link: https://a.co/d/eJd9sie

 

[secondofangle2]

This is an elevated bottom. I have not seen this in plastic.View attachment 8275873

that is basically an inverted drum - the bottom serves as the batter head and absorbs the energy

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

that is basically an inverted drum - the bottom serves as the batter head and absorbs the energy

Yeah, that's why I was thinking about a screw on bottom piece that could secure foil or a thin piece of leather or something tight across the bottom but the little seam around the bottom is the issue for ball powder getting stuck so whatever it is, it would have to not have a seam area around it. Might just be a different way to slow the powder or divert the impact of powder better. Some kind of slide type action inside the cup may do that. I dunno, but that issue could be left for another day too and just allow some of us to experiment ourselves and I think someone will figure it out. It will take a lot of trial and error. Too much for one guy to do

 

[4O6shootist]

Ingenuity builds the thrower, now we're trying to reinvent a plastic cup to act like a paper cup!

 

[Terp]

Ingenuity builds the thrower, now we're trying to reinvent a plastic cup to act like a paper cup!

...and 3 long pages later, I can't figure out why, as I usually replace all my plastic hoppers with glass to eliminate static cling (among other things improved with glass).

Guys, the wax acts like a shock absorber and mitigates static and kernel jump, so let's just go with that.

 

[Kiba]

Ingenuity builds the thrower, now we're trying to reinvent a plastic cup to act like a paper cup!

Believe it or not, when you're trying to dump a large charge of powder very quickly without making a mess and without shocking the scale pan and inducing a long settling time, the cup is actually a rather critical part of the entire system...

The V2 and V3 auto throw didn't move or dump fast enough for the cup to be a real issue other than holding the powder. It was a real issue on my automated Harrell's that could dump in 0.18 seconds with the servo at full speed. I bet it's even more of an issue on Paul's dispenser that can dump 100+gr in about 0.5 seconds. Once you're moving a lot of powder very quickly the cup can become a real issue.

I still prefer a metal cup for static issues, but the metal cup being rigid does cause issues with a longer scale settling time after the bulk drop when the powder bounces around because there's no "give" to the bottom of the cup.

 

[HemiPowrd]

What about total cup weight? Would a heavier cup mitigate some of the scale settling time?

 

[CK1.0]

Maybe some sort of diffuser/mesh below the opening of the bulk dropper to slow down the falling powder (so a normal cup could be used)?

 

[secondofangle2]

The mass of powder that is dispensed during the bulk deop, if unimpeded by any resistance other than air resistance, which is constant, depends only upon gravity and time

As soon as you add anything that slows it down other than (constant and negligible) wind resistance, you introduce another variable. So my guess is that the consistency of the bulk drop will go down if you add resistance, other than (negligible) wind resistance to the drop, which is exactly what you’re trying to do if you want to slow down the velocity of the kernels striking the cup

The resistance that you add would have to be separated from the bulk drop mechanism sufficiently as to not interfere with the effluent kernels, and the only way to do that would be to separate it sufficiently from the bulk drop mechanism by adding height, which would make the entire contraption unwieldy.

Which is why slowing them down on the bottom of the cup makes sense rather than trying to slow them down higher along their path

 

[mynamejeff]

Hi everyone, just wanted to say Happy Thanksgiving and ask again when the pre-order will go live!

 

[Ingenuity1]

Think I've got the cup design down. Now to send it out to print 1000's. Definitely not green! Probably white to show powder best.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Think I've got the cup design down. Now to send it out to print 1000's. Definitely not green! Probably white to show powder best.


View attachment 8280284

Sweet. I will just take the green one you have now with my kit though..... to make it easy for you, go ahead and shoot me a link and I will pay for the new unit and you can cross me off your list

 

[HemiPowrd]

Think I've got the cup design down. Now to send it out to print 1000's. Definitely not green! Probably white to show powder best.


View attachment 8280284

Will it have some form of carbon in the material to help prevent static buildup?

 

[Ingenuity1]

Will it have some form of carbon in the material to help prevent static buildup?

No, that would make it black. Not all plastics are static prone

 

[akh223]

No, that would make it black. Not all plastics are static prone

Gonna use ABS?

 

[mynamejeff]

Think I've got the cup design down. Now to send it out to print 1000's. Definitely not green! Probably white to show powder best.


View attachment 8280284

Looks great, sell me the system and i'll print my own cup if it gets it here sooner

 

[nalye]

Gonna use ABS?

I think PC or PTFE (which somewhat can be alloyed with PC) is the best choice. ABS has tons of VOCs and the smell is atrocious.

 

[parshal]

I used PLA+ for a funnel on a Dillon and have no static at all. It’s not a smooth finish either and I think that helps keep kernels from sticking.

 

[akh223]

I used PLA+ for a funnel on a Dillon and have no static at all. It’s not a smooth finish either and I think that helps keep kernels from sticking.

Kernels sticking to the plastic is only half the equation here. PLA+ will hold a charge that can and will alter scale values at times.

 

[mynamejeff]

bumping to see if there are any updates...

 

[Schütze]

bumping to see if there are any updates...

Yes there are, your next booster is ready. Get in line….

 

[Smokenaces]