It's built in (the orange thing to the right of the orange scoop). Nothing else needed.
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Ingenuity Precision trickler
- Thread starter NiteQwill
- Start date
Can we get more details on this thing? Where do we buy the models? What electronics are required and are there instructions for setup? Would really need to see it in action before dropping cash too.
Well, whoever came up with the disk idea first IDK, but it f’ing works.
Now, someone please figure out how to mount one to a Dillon, with an IP tricker on top dropping/tricking charges to the kernel, and then dropping that into a case every time someone pulls the handle…
Now, someone please figure out how to mount one to a Dillon, with an IP tricker on top dropping/tricking charges to the kernel, and then dropping that into a case every time someone pulls the handle…
This is life.
I've been trying to tune my DAA 6.5 bullet dropper for 6mm but it's been a PITA.
Well we won't hold that against you. Lord knows there's other things to keep up with compared to someone else's potential patent. I've always heard that he does have the whole machine patented, but that's give that the disk is really the only thing thats the same (though clearly it's secrete to success in getting trickling so accurate), I don't know that a pentent on the machine would hold up to one part in the machine being similar to a part in a different machine. That just isn't my understanding of patent law and how it works but again, I make no claim to know any law about anything. Other than "If mamma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy". I am familiar with that law.....
Yeah that was the basic way I was thinking about it with my new loading room but for a 550c. Just need a printed shoot that doesn't touch the cup when down, then picks up the cup and dumps it over on the up into the shoot, which goes into a powder die. With a 3d printer or something who can print stuff for you I think it can be done basically like that guy did.
If I'm going to do all that, I want my primer seating to be very consistent and the 550 might be the only way that truly happens but I'm not familiar enough with an apex (that may be an evolution ?) So who knows, he may be auto driving legit precision ammo as good as my single stage stuff
I don't think it will be "required" like the AT. Each version of the AT improved something significant (though some will argue the v4 didn't). Which is understandable. It was one of the first out there and by default will have improvements over time.
Now we have the Ingenuity that is being developed with over a decade of trial and error based on the AT and other designs. So it's going to be a more refined and future proofed design. Will there be upgrades? Likely. But unless they take away the cup and funnel handling...they won't be enough improvement that it's almost mandatory. You can't get much better than under 10sec and down to the kernel. It's big time diminishing returns. Ingenuity is almost assuredly taking this into account with their pricing. When you don't expect to be able to significantly improve something ever couple years, you have to raise the price of your product.
Look at actions. Other than pre-fit tolerances, no push feed 700 pattern action does anything a Surgeon wouldn't do 15 years ago.
I'm not saying there won't be upgrades. But what I am saying is if this product performs as expected, the manufacturer will see far, far less gen 2 purchases than the AT saw from gen 1 to gen 2 and from gen 2 and gen 3. Which helps justify the higher pricing.
Innovation has a ceiling on every invention/product. The further you are away from that ceiling, the more profitable your innovations are long term.
You're perception of the life cycle of this product is limited by your imagination. Before the Auto Trickler came out I never imagined I would need to upgrade my powder weighing. Then I went through the V1, V2, skipped the 3, and bought a V4. Then upgraded the V2 to a IP Trickler, and now I'll be upgrading the V2+IP to a full IP product. Every time the Garmin 701, Delta with AB, 901, Radius, Magneto V3, Labradar, DRS dope card, HUD, TBAC Ultra, Ultra G2, Magnus, etc ...comes out there's a upgrade or competitor that comes out. It's evolution. You're denying the evolution in this sport.
You obviously make a fair point. I think maybe a better way to say it is "there just isn't much meat left on that bone", so you'd have to consider that when pricing your item. The item that took the meat off the bone that is. That's all. I'm sure you're right that more niceties and all for powder dropping will happen and that's awesome, but from a business perspective, when you price a product (especially one that has as much R&D and cost in developing for a small guy), you have to consider what the future sales will come from, when you consider what price you enter the market at.
That said, I hope Paul can get it down to the $800 ish level all in. I think that would be a ton easier for everyone to swallow and he'd ultimately sell more and then focus on accessories to go with it after, but that's like Just My Opinion Man......
I'm not trying to be an ass, but I don't really understand what you're saying and I don't think that's what I am saying.
I'm saying: expect to drop $1200 in three years on the new hotness. And don't be surprised in 4 mos after this product comes out if people start reporting shortcomings. Everything sounds perfect and final when it gets leaked in a vague pre-production manner. This same story has happened over and over and over again. It would be naive to think this is the last powder dropper you buy for the next 10 years.
I'm glad it's $1000.... I think it's probably worth it comparatively and hopefully the lead time is smaller once it's released because of the few guys butthurt over $1-200 dollars on a buy once nondisposable/nonconsumable product.
Yeah but I will be surprised because what has always been the issue is already proven that its not going to have issues. I have one already so I know thats not going to happen. It could happen with the dropper or electronics , but honestly thats hard to imagine. I'd say the electronic control set up is most vulnerable to what you're talking about. The trickler part is what's given everyone such a challenge and that part is absolutely fixed and proven to be extremely reliable, extremely accurate, and extremely repeatable. We are already at the limits of the powder kernel weight and have a proven scale that takes full advantage of that.
Prove scale + proven trickler= 95% of the trouble. The dropper and electronics is the only part that's possible to improve at this point.
That's what I meant by "not much meat left on the bone". It's not the same situation as it was with the AT, ATv2/ v3, ST.... the IP has already solved what killed all of those systems. Hope that helps make it more clear. I do understand what your saying though
I'm petty enough to drag this thread back up in 3 years when everyone is gushing over the new hotness to rub it in. Like the SilencerShop 90 day approval advertisement. Pffghhttt...
I will be shocked - SHOCKED! - if they ship in January.
The planning fallacy is ever-present and powerful
The planning fallacy is ever-present and powerful
Yeah I'm not looking for it to truly be shipping out in a month or so. Paul will make sure it's bullet proof before he sends em out. He may be at that point now though for all I know. I'd kind of want 4 or 5 beta testers to take em out for a spin for a few months before I sold 500 or more of these things out in the wild though
Absolutely agree. I was told there would be a pre-order option up on the website last week, but still not there.
I wonder what the price of these could get down to if a true manufacturing company took it on and did it in a larger volume?
Paul told me that he wants to have 1,000 units ready for launch, but I wonder what would happen to the price if he went to 10,000 units?
Also, I wonder if he is getting any employees/help to make them. I am sure with the volume he might have that its quickly going to be impossible to keep up, and he is going to start out behind due to pre-orders anyway.
Paul told me that he wants to have 1,000 units ready for launch, but I wonder what would happen to the price if he went to 10,000 units?
Also, I wonder if he is getting any employees/help to make them. I am sure with the volume he might have that its quickly going to be impossible to keep up, and he is going to start out behind due to pre-orders anyway.
Yeah, you really do need a beta or QA test team. It truly helps to have someone with little or no history with a design take a whack at it. You need someone to push all the buttons, in both the correct and incorrect order, and do it in as many different way as they can think of. The fact that they have no insider knowledge of the system helps to truly test it. I think the pitfall that a lot of these systems fall in to is that the inventor (or designer, creator, builder) is the tester also. They know the ins and the outs of the system, and exactly how it should work, and how to tweak it, etc. Give it to someone who has never touched that particular unit before and the gremlins, questions, and issues start to arise.
I can already hear the complaints from the people who buy it cause they were told it is the new hotness and they cant get it to work correctly cause they wont read the instructions. I wonder what happens when the wrong bushing and powder disk are chosen for the powder being used? Or the user calibrates it incorrectly? Obviously you cant stop everyone from doing stupid stuff, but you do need to have tested all the reasonably possible scenarios and have the answers to the questions that will arise. Hopefully Paul has done that kind of testing, but my guess is his bias and knowledge of the machine preclude him from conjuring up all all the incorrect ways someone will use his machine.
When I say Beta or QA team I am NOT talking about a promotion team (sometimes confused with actual beta testers). These promo guys will all get a free unit to showcase on their youtube channel. Some require thousands of dollars to make a video about it and promote it. They will give it a glowing review and regurgitate the talking points the inventor has told them to (most likely with little actual testing or use of the product). Then after the check is cashed you never hear from them again. I could name names, but you all probably know who that is in the shooting community already.
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Not GAVIN! Not him ever! He's the ULTIMATE RELOADER
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Wanting a new version doesn't make it a consumable/disposable product.... I don't need a new powder thrower. I want one. There's a distinct difference. My v2 with IP works fine I'd just like to have this one. I personally hope he keeps it at 1000 and I guarantee most of you crying will still pay it immediately.
No. It just means that the price you pay for these products is repetitive every 3-5 years. It's not going to be a lifetime investment.That was my point to people rationalizing the higher cost.
Well, I'm still using the at3 with my IP trickler so. The trickler for the AT I still have and it still works so several years and counting, not sure when exactly I got it but maybe 3 ish or so years ago then got the IP trickler more than a year ago maybe? I have no reason to think thr AT would stop working anytime soon and I bought it used so. I think my set up will keep working for a very long time and the new electronics and dropper is the only improvement even possible for the IP... There may be niceties that come along to "improve " on the IP set up but the core functions just don't leave room for any improvement. The ST, and all versions of the AT1-4, all left a lot to be desired from the trickle mechanism. The IP does not, so the core functions just don't have the room for improvement the way these other powder tricklers have in the past. This was my whole point earlier ITT.
Im still using my v2 and loving all these people bitching about their "improvements"
I don't love that my V2 grinds to a halt with ball powders. Adam came out with the V4 and discontinued the V3 upgrade so I bought the V4 and every one knows how perfect the V4 is. But damn were people singing it's praises before it came out.
No one is "rationalizing" as far as justifying a price that's too high.
This is just simple economics. When you build a product that is getting closer to the ceiling of possible innovations, you will be pricing those products higher as consumers have less and less incentive to buy upgrades. And once you hit that ceiling, if your product isn't a consumable, you have to move onto other product innovations or inventions. See J. Allen as one of the latest examples. Their product wasn't a consumable and was also at the top of their innovative intent. They didn't move onto anything new and now they don't exist. Ingenuity correctly moved into trickler stuff as their rails and such were pretty close to the innovative ceiling. And they'll likely add someone other than this trickler once they have completed it.
We have gotten to the point where the entire assembly sits on top of the scale and adds no additional footprint. We have gotten to the point of sub 10sec down to the kernel throws. There will be significantly less purchasers of a V2 version of this than there were V2 auto tricklers.
You may personally be expecting to repeat your purchases every 3-5 years, but I can assure you, once a product gets good enough, you are in the minority.
I’m still running an early v2 from 2017 or 2018. It’s been upgraded to the v3 electronics and funnel and now the IP tricker. Runs like a champ with the exception it will not do fine ball powders. (It leaks out of the original Lee powder dropper)
Biggest issue: It's slow and over throws. I do a lot of precision loading on a 650. And most of it is using a ball powder. I've never really gotten a Dillon or powder thru die mounted Redding BR30 to drop as consistently as I'd like so I trickle off press and drop using the A419 funnel. So a bullet fed 650 is pretty fast and the V4 is the slowest Auto Trickler yet. And then to top it off when it overthrows it just makes me wonder if slowing the press down is worth it.
Smaller issues: you can only adjust settings, calibrate, or change charges with your phone. It's a bit of a to-do to empty it and swap powders. These wouldn't be enough for me to upgrade but when you run it next to a V2 equipped with IP Trickler you realize how slow and inaccurate it is. If I had upgraded to the V3, I probably wouldn't be looking to upgrade to the IP auto throw. And I probably wouldn't also own a V4. Right now the forcing function to upgrade is a faster more accurate powder thrower for ball powders. And the cost benefit is how much money will you pay to save 5 secs and have fewer over or under throws?
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Yeah, I understand your belief. More simply put you're predicting that the full IP setup is as close to perfect as it's going to get and there can be no meaningful upgrade or completely different variant that will ever motivate you to buy again.
When someone develops one of these that is progressive press mounted and auto-drops into a 650 or 1050, I'll buy it. Again, your perception of the innovative ceiling is limited by your imagination.
I'm still running the original electronics and stepper motor from my V1, which are 7 years old now.
Granted, the code on it has been modded when I added and integrated my own servo controlled Harrell's bulk drop with the V1 shortly after receiving it (well before Adam released the V2 with auto throw) and I replaced the originally supplied rcbs trickler with an IP trickler about a year ago, but the original V1 electronics and stepper motor are still doing their thing.
In terms of absolute performance and how I use it, I don't think the new IP complete setup will buy me any significant improvement in speed or accuracy over my current setup, but the IP bulk drop and electronics will be nice to have mostly for the keypad to punch in the desired charge weight instead of having to put the desired weight on the scale and push a scale button to accept it as with my current V1 based setup. I've been telling myself for years I need to build a touchscreen or keypad & display based interface but I've never got around to it.
I agree with others that the next logical step to take on these systems is a direct to case (similar to the Prometheus) or direct to progressive press powder die dispensing device; anything to minimize "hand time" and speed up the process a little more.
If the below product ever gets released, single stage press users would probably jump to it, especially if it's able to integrate single kernel level dispensing.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20230175823A1/en?oq=US20230175823A1
If the below product ever gets released, single stage press users would probably jump to it, especially if it's able to integrate single kernel level dispensing.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20230175823A1/en?oq=US20230175823A1
Interesting approach.
However, one thing that concerns me about a position controlled table moving a loading block and filling a bunch of cases for you is what if the powder clumps in the neck of the case, which can sometimes be a problem depending on the neck diameter and powder used. If you're loading by hand you can see the powder level in the funnel isn't dropping and you can tap the funnel to get things moving. With an automated system, unless there's something to monitor the powder charge is totally dispensed into the case you might have a big mess when it lifts off the case it thinks is full to move onto the next one. I suppose as a double check there could be a scale built into the motorized table that verifies the weight of the table increases by the specified dispensed charge weight before it moves onto the next one, or an optical sensor in the funnel/output chute near the case mouth to make sure it's not obstructed by clumped powder before it moves to the next case.
I like the idea though, if you had multiple trays you could be seating bullets into the cases on one tray while the machine is automatically putting powder into the next tray full of cases. You'd be putting a lot of faith into the machine though... at least with the current AT / supertrickler loading process you get to handle and inspect each case as you add the powder.
Pretty big organization behind that patent, guess we'll see if they get it to market at some point.
That's a choice not a necessity. If this ingenuity thrower works as described I don't see myself upgrading anytime soon or at least until a completely automated hands free system comes out thats equally accurate. $1000 is completely reasonable for what you're getting with this. Me and many others will be anxiously waiting for the pre-order to open.
For those that have the trickler. Do you have any issues with it metering pistol powder? I have seen it mentioned that it can have problems with fine powder. Has anyone ran into this and what powder was you using? My main pistol powders are bullseye, power pistol, w231 and N320/N340.
I know the bulk thrower can't do pistol charges. I dont know what the minimum charge weight is, but it probably varies by powder.
One place where the ST shines is pistol powders
One place where the ST shines is pistol powders
With the correct disk I haven't had any trouble at all with ball powder. I don't load pistol though right now. I don't know that I'd want to load pistol with a trickler though? Wouldn't that be best done with a good powder bar?
