Is abortion ok

[BigBabyMoses06]

What about the point of view that they are not doing it to their own body, but to an entirely unique human body?

It's her body, and her baby, fetus, human, whatever she want's to call it. She grew it, it's hers. Her body, her choice. Hard stop. Doesn't matter whose seed it is either. You knock someone up, until that baby is born, it's her choice to do with as she pleases, as grotesque as that may be.

Imagine if rolls were reversed and men carried the baby lol. Funny in concept, but no one here would let anyone else tell them what they can and cant do with their body.

Liberty first. This isn't a "responsibility" issue. Your morals, or anyone else's, don't matter here.

 

[mkollman74]

It's her body, and her baby, fetus, human, whatever she want's to call it. She grew it, it's hers. Her body, her choice. Hard stop. Doesn't matter whose seed it is either. You knock someone up, until that baby is born, it's her choice to do with as she pleases, as grotesque as that may be.

Imagine if rolls were reversed and men carried the baby lol. Funny in concept, but no one here would let anyone else tell them what they can and cant do with their body.

Liberty first. This isn't a "responsibility" issue. Your morals, or anyone else's, don't matter here.

How can it be her body if its not the same DNA? If she cuts her hair off or cuts her arm off, every cell in that tissue will be the same DNA. The fetus will not be. Entirely different DNA sequence. It is not her body.

 

[BigBabyMoses06]

How can it be her body if its not the same DNA? If she cuts her hair off or cuts her arm off, every cell in that tissue will be the same DNA. The fetus will not be. Entirely different DNA sequence. It is not her body.

Completely irrelevant imo. She grew it, it's hers. She could grow an elephant, sea otter, red wood tree, painting of the pope, doesn't matter. It's hers. DNA is irrelevant. If you want to say it's a different person, then okay. It's her person, and she should be able to do with it as she pleases, until it's born.

 

[mkollman74]

Completely irrelevant imo. She grew it, it's hers. She could grow an elephant, sea otter, red wood tree, painting of the pope, doesn't matter. It's hers. DNA is irrelevant. If you want to say it's a different person, then okay. It's her person, and she should be able to do with it as she pleases, until it's born.

What about if its partially born? What do we do then?

 

[BigBabyMoses06]

What about if its partially born? What do we do then?

Good question. Dunno. I'd rather focus and argue on the basic concept before getting into the weeds.

 

[mkollman74]

Good question. Dunno. I'd rather focus and argue on the basic concept before getting into the weeds.

It is complex. Actually, I am pleasantly surprised by the tenor of the conversation on this here. Very rare these days.

 

[BigBabyMoses06]

It is complex. Actually, I am pleasantly surprised by the tenor of the conversation on this here. Very rare these days.

Same. I came in hot, did some name calling, sorry for that. Think I was anticipating much more aggression from opposing views.

 

[doubloon]

What about if its partially born?

Explain that in medical terms not just the BS political or emogelical definitions.

Partially born like the head, the body, two arms and a leg are born but one leg stays inside?

Or do you just mean the aborted fetus is removed intact instead of being sucked out piecemeal through a straw like liposuction?

Aborted is aborted. If you think it's murder why does it matter specifically how it was murdered?

'Partial-Birth Abortion': Separating Fact From Spin

https://www.npr.org/2006/02/21/5168163/partial-birth-abortion-separating-fact-from-spin

 

[mkollman74]

Your morals, or anyone else's, don't matter here

Including yours? You are making a moral argument about what is right and what is wrong - a moral argument by definition. A self-defeating proposition it would seem... And on what basis are you making any claim of what is right? What is the transcendent idea that provides you the foundation to make any judgment at all?

 

[theLBC]

 

[theLBC]

It's her body, and her baby, fetus, human, whatever she want's to call it. She grew it, it's hers. Her body, her choice. Hard stop. Doesn't matter whose seed it is either. You knock someone up, until that baby is born, it's her choice to do with as she pleases, as grotesque as that may be.

Imagine if rolls were reversed and men carried the baby lol. Funny in concept, but no one here would let anyone else tell them what they can and cant do with their body.

Liberty first. This isn't a "responsibility" issue. Your morals, or anyone else's, don't matter here.

some muslims think they can rape your 12 year old daughter because she's not a muslim, and that is morally acceptable to them.
society has to decide collectively what is morally acceptable. that's how it works.
all societies are not the same, because the people have different values and norms.
that is why diversity of culture doesn't lead to harmony.

 

[mkollman74]

Explain that in medical terms not just the BS political or emogelical definitions.

Partially born like the head, the body, two arms and a leg are born but one leg stays inside?

Or do you just mean the aborted fetus is removed intact instead of being sucked out piecemeal through a straw like liposuction?

Aborted is aborted. If you think it's murder why does it matter specifically how it was murdered?

'Partial-Birth Abortion': Separating Fact From Spin

https://www.npr.org/2006/02/21/5168163/partial-birth-abortion-separating-fact-from-spin

This is what I am asking... As I understand the partial birth abortion procedure, it is quite grotesque. Are you OK with that? Don't know what an emogelical is, and don't care. Probably just an ad hominem that is beneath you anyways...

 

[doubloon]

This is what I am asking... As I understand the partial birth abortion procedure, it is quite grotesque. Are you OK with that? Don't know what an emogelical is, and don't care. Probably just an ad hominem that is beneath you anyways...

As stated before, I am not a fan of abortion in any form and would counsel any close family member against it but I would support them through any legal decision they chose to make. For other people, not family or close, I'm OK with them choosing any legal option wrt to abortion.

The key for me is the legal part. We are a nation of laws not a nation of religion like Islam or the almost-kindalike nation of Palestine. People are free in this country to adhere to a self inflicted stricter moral code but they are not free to inflict it on other people. No raping and stoning promiscuous women in the street.

Whether the abortion involves a chemical that induces the shedding and expulsion of the fetus or pulling the fetus out whole or shredding it with vacuum aspiration doesn't matter to me as long as the option chosen is "approved" and legal. Coat hanger or other improvised DIY abortion techniques should be punished accordingly. Not due to the "violence" or grotesqueness of the procedure but because it's ham handed, uneducated and could end up resulting in a deformed birth or a hospitalized mother. The societal burden of either as a result of stupidity is reprehensible IMO.

I haven't looked around for any pictures but I'm not sure I would consider a process where the fetus is removed whole more grotesque than a process where it ends up looking like a strawberry slushie. At least with the intact process the family has something they can bury or cremate with some remnant of dignity instead of a jar of goo.

The word emogelical wasn't aimed at you. It's my made up word for the Karen's and Kevin's and libtards or even the (what's the conservative equivalent of libtard?) ... the people who are so mired and entrenched in their own emotional dogma it's impossible to reason with them ... like evangelical but without religion or what's generally referred to as religion.

 

[doubloon]

Technically "documented" abortions in Texas but, nevertheless, undoubtedly significantly lower.

Assuming there are any, I'd like to see the numbers for the uptick in abortions that may be happening across the state lines.

The number of abandoned babies has reportedly been on the rise in Texas but nowhere near the number of abortions.

 

[doubloon]

that is why diversity of culture doesn't lead to harmony.

A lot of truth in that because people just don't know how to leave each other alone.

And I like that what you said is basically "morals are subjective and fluid".

No population of people will ever adhere 100% to any moral or legal code, regardless of potential punishment either earthly or divine.

Totally agree a society has to decide for itself how to behave and 1000% believe it will never stabilize or be 100% successful. We (the US) have flip flopped on abortion, prohibition, gun rights, speech and more and will continue to do so as long as Karen's and Kevin's have a vote.

 

[mkollman74]

As stated before, I am not a fan of abortion in any form and would counsel any close family member against it but I would support them through any legal decision they chose to make. For other people, not family or close, I'm OK with them choosing any legal option wrt to abortion.

The key for me is the legal part. We are a nation of laws not a nation of religion like Islam or the almost-kindalike nation of Palestine. People are free in this country to adhere to a self inflicted stricter moral code but they are not free to inflict it on other people. No raping and stoning promiscuous women in the street.

Whether the abortion involves a chemical that induces the shedding and expulsion of the fetus or pulling the fetus out whole or shredding it with vacuum aspiration doesn't matter to me as long as the option chosen is "approved" and legal. Coat hanger or other improvised DIY abortion techniques should be punished accordingly. Not due to the "violence" or grotesqueness of the procedure but because it's ham handed, uneducated and could end up resulting in a deformed birth or a hospitalized mother. The societal burden of either as a result of stupidity is reprehensible IMO.

I haven't looked around for any pictures but I'm not sure I would consider a process where the fetus is removed whole more grotesque than a process where it ends up looking like a strawberry slushie. At least with the intact process the family has something they can bury or cremate with some remnant of dignity instead of a jar of goo.

The word emogelical wasn't aimed at you. It's my made up word for the Karen's and Kevin's and libtards or even the (what's the conservative equivalent of libtard?) ... the people who are so mired and entrenched in their own emotional dogma it's impossible to reason with them ... like evangelical but without religion or what's generally referred to as religion.

What are laws? Laws are restrictions and/or requirements that either compel or prohibit behavior. How do we choose what to compel or prohibit? If all that is important to you is whether or not something is legal, would you be OK if abortion was made illegal? It seems that would satisfy the framework you have established.

 

[doubloon]

What are laws? Laws are restrictions and/or requirements that either compel or prohibit behavior.

Compels or prohibits in as much as it provides a framework of acceptable/unacceptable behaviour but laws don't actually force anyone to behave a particular way otherwise we wouldn't need police, lawyers, courts, yada yada, blah blah ...

Laws and the supporting documents also provide prescribed penalties for inflicting on those who get caught not adhering to the laws.

How do we choose what to compel or prohibit?

Legislation by people we voted into office.

If all that is important to you is whether or not something is legal, would you be OK if abortion was made illegal?

Would I be "OK"? I don't see why I wouldn't be "OK".

Would you be "OK" if alcohol was made illegal? Would you be "OK" if driving was made illegal?

ETA: BTW ... I *think* abortion is illegal in Texas at the moment, at least mostly. I'm still "OK".

It seems that would satisfy the framework you have established.

I'm flattered but I didn't establish any of the framework. Most of that was done by the founders and it has gone through continuous cycles of improvements and setbacks over the past 200 or so years.

 

[Rthur]

No matter what the law/gov says, and no matter what you or anyone else says, dictating what people can and cannot do with their own body is a complete infringement on individual liberties.

They already made the choice.
If they were dying your statement would be true.
The unborn has liberties that have to be protected.
Reason why, if they can bullshit you into believing life is qualified by the government you'll end up on the train again.

R

 

[quietmike]

No matter what the law/gov says, and no matter what you or anyone else says, dictating what people can and cannot do with their own body is a complete infringement on individual liberties.

66% of the entire federal budget goes to entitlement spending which pays to keep up people who are ostensibly adults who supposedly can't survive w/o feeding off of others.

How is this different than killing babies to avoid the consequences of being a filthy road whore?

 

[Snipe260]

No matter what the law/gov says, and no matter what you or anyone else says, dictating what people can and cannot do with their own body is a complete infringement on individual liberties.

Kinda like writing you a ticket for not wearing your seatbelt. Or getting fired for not taking a Covid jab? Or arresting prostitutes? Etc etc

 

[doubloon]

Kinda like writing you a ticket for not wearing your seatbelt. Or getting fired for not taking a Covid jab? Or arresting prostitutes? Etc etc

Fired for no jab is an iffy one for me but .gov *forcing* everyone to get the jab is over the line for me.

But your intent is understood.

 

[mkollman74]

Fired for no jab is an iffy one for me but .gov *forcing* everyone to get the jab is over the line for me.

But your intent is understood.

Please elaborate. I’d like to hear more.

 

[S Sevier]

Doctors have pretty much agreed when life stops yet when asked when it starts they seem to pick a different standard of reference. I assume because they think mothers rights are involved.
Life is life and whether you like it or not, the people who started it are morally responsible until the human created is of the age to protect and provide for themselves.
Our opinions won’t persecute them, their conscience will as long as it’s a sane person.

 

[doubloon]

Please elaborate. I’d like to hear more.

According to a piece of documentation I have read before but don't recall the specific title the government has the authority to force a vaccination on the population under the guise of an emergency or crisis or some bullshit and they get to define it.

ETA: I *think* more recently SCOTUS has shot down efforts similar to these like Biden's EO

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) - A state may enact a compulsory vaccination law, since the legislature has the discretion to decide whether vaccination is the best way to prevent smallpox and protect public health. The legislature may exempt children from the law without violating the equal protection rights of adults if the law applies equally among adults.

upheld in Zucht v. King, 260 U.S. 174 (1922)

The shutdown was over the line for me, government overreach.

 

[mkollman74]

According to a piece of documentation I have read before but don't recall the specific title the government has the authority to force a vaccination on the population under the guise of an emergency or crisis or some bullshit and they get to define it.

ETA: I *think* more recently SCOTUS has shot down efforts similar to these like Biden's EO

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) - A state may enact a compulsory vaccination law, since the legislature has the discretion to decide whether vaccination is the best way to prevent smallpox and protect public health. The legislature may exempt children from the law without violating the equal protection rights of adults if the law applies equally among adults.

upheld in Zucht v. King, 260 U.S. 174 (1922)

The shutdown was over the line for me, government overreach.

I agree with that.

 

[Longshot231]

 

[Haney]

The men making these decisions don't get pregnant when they get fucked , they should have no say in what a woman should do with their body . Let those guys get fucked in the ass by a rapist and carry the load around for 9 months and see if they have a different perspective . .

 

[doubloon]

The little fat kid is an idiot.

 

[Rthur]

The men making these decisions don't get pregnant when they get fucked , they should have no say in what a woman should do with their body . Let those guys get fucked in the ass by a rapist and carry the load around for 9 months and see if they have a different perspective . .

FFS.
How many women get pregnant without a man?
What percentage of "unwanted pregnancies" are from rape?
What age do women have to be held to adult standards if they choose to partake in adult activities?
Rhetorical question- When does Haney/Handjob finally grow up?


R

 

[S Sevier]

The men making these decisions don't get pregnant when they get fucked , they should have no say in what a woman should do with their body . Let those guys get fucked in the ass by a rapist and carry the load around for 9 months and see if they have a different perspective . .

You are a dumb azz. I have 4 kids with my wife and I am equally on the hook with all of them in the process. It’s not the woman’s responsibility, it’s our responsibility as a team from conception to the age of responsibility.
I would like to edit my response by saying you are the type of shi*bag to think it’s all on her when the unexpected happens.
I love my kids and I was equally with them and my wife every step of the way

 

[mkollman74]

The men making these decisions don't get pregnant when they get fucked , they should have no say in what a woman should do with their body . Let those guys get fucked in the ass by a rapist and carry the load around for 9 months and see if they have a different perspective . .

I think the science has shown that its not her body... Entirely unique DNA. You can still advocate for indiscriminate termination of life, but you need a different argument.

 

[mkollman74]

Compels or prohibits in as much as it provides a framework of acceptable/unacceptable behaviour but laws don't actually force anyone to behave a particular way otherwise we wouldn't need police, lawyers, courts, yada yada, blah blah ...

Laws and the supporting documents also provide prescribed penalties for inflicting on those who get caught not adhering to the laws.


Legislation by people we voted into office.


Would I be "OK"? I don't see why I wouldn't be "OK".

Would you be "OK" if alcohol was made illegal? Would you be "OK" if driving was made illegal?

ETA: BTW ... I *think* abortion is illegal in Texas at the moment, at least mostly. I'm still "OK".

I'm flattered but I didn't establish any of the framework. Most of that was done by the founders and it has gone through continuous cycles of improvements and setbacks over the past 200 or so years.

You miss the point. We aren't discussing my views, rather yours... I didn't claim legality as the standard - you did... Your questions make my point for me, legality isn't a particularly good standard.

 

[Longshot231]

You miss the point. We aren't discussing my views, rather yours... I didn't claim legality as the standard - you did... Your questions make my point for me, legality isn't a particularly good standard.

The people that turned Jews over to the Nazis were obeying the law. The people that tried to hide them from the Nazis were disobeying the law.

The slave hunters who went after runaway slaves were following the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. The people that ran the underground railroad to help free runaway slaves were violating the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.

Romans that declared "Caesar is lord," were obeying the law. Christians that declared "Jesus is Lord," were disobeying the law.

American colonists that gave up their firearms to British soldiers in Boston in 1775 were obeying the law. The colonists that kept them and fought back were disobeying the law.

Residents of Illinois who registered their "assault weapons" are obeying the law. The residents of Illinois who didn't register those firearms are disobeying the law.

 

[quietmike]

The men making these decisions don't get pregnant when they get fucked , they should have no say in what a woman should do with their body . Let those guys get fucked in the ass by a rapist and carry the load around for 9 months and see if they have a different perspective . .

When past democrats were told it was wrong to horse whip a lazy slave or hang a rebellious one, they were almost unanimously told that by people who didn't even have a slave.

 

[Haney]

I think the science has shown that its not her body... Entirely unique DNA. You can still advocate for indiscriminate termination of life, but you need a different argument.

Nice spin . No new argument needed . Her body her choice, rules should not be made by some dumb fucker that can't get pregnant .

 

[Haney]

So all you tough guys wanting to rule women here is a question . So your Wife/Girlfriend gets raped on her way home from meeting her secret boyfriend . She gets pregnant, do you want her to carry it for 9 months so you can raise it as your own ?

 

[quietmike]

So all you tough guys wanting to rule women here is a question . So your Wife/Girlfriend gets raped on her way home from meeting her secret boyfriend . She gets pregnant, do you want her to carry it for 9 months so you can raise it as your own ?

Coker v Georgia. The supreme court said executing those convicted of rape is unconstitutional. So if we can't kill those who commit the crime, how does it make sense to kill an innocent third party to the crime?

 

[W54/XM-388]

So all you tough guys wanting to rule women here is a question . So your Wife/Girlfriend gets raped on her way home from meeting her secret boyfriend . She gets pregnant, do you want her to carry it for 9 months so you can raise it as your own ?

Well that's where the rubber meets the road.
I'd also say that many folks who think they know the answer to that situation might not actually know what they will do unless they actually have to experience it.

There are some with strong espoused opinions and claims on what they would do.

I'll bet most if not all of those making bold dogmatic statements have never been actually in the middle of that.

 

[Longshot231]

 

[Longshot231]

 

[doubloon]

legality isn't a particularly good standard

Legality is the only earthly standard in an evolved society.

Wether the legality is based on the laws of man or the laws of whatever religion is followed.

Just because something is legal it doesn't mean you have to do it or participate.

There are multiple standards of behavior for staying out of jail dependent, to some extent, on geographic location and there are multiple standards for being rewarded in the afterlife depending on if you've chosen a religion that promises an afterlife.

 

[Maxduty]

In some cases, abortion should be legal up to about 260 trimesters.

 

[quietmike]

How hard is to understand, killing people is wrong? No matter if it's injuns inhabiting land you want to develop, slaves who rebel against ownership, Jews who ruined the German economy, or a baby theatening to force you to face the consequences of being a filthy road whore.

 

[quietmike]

Not a concern to me at all. They're not alive, give me your memory from the womb.

Past democrats had pseudoscientific arguments of why slaves and native americans didn't really count as people and could be killed.
They had special names for them too, to try and dehumanize them and assuage any guilt over mistreating or killing them.

This made you take your ball and go home?

 

[doubloon]

How hard is to understand

The sanctioned killing of people happens all the time.

 

[quietmike]

The sanctioned killing of people happens all the time.

After someone commits a crime making their life forfeit. Threatening to make a woman face the consequences of being a road whore doesn't rise to that level.

 

[doubloon]

After someone commits a crime

Really? So that's the only time killing is sanctioned?

WRT abortion, it's not a person.

 

[mkollman74]

Legality is the only earthly standard in an evolved society.

Wether the legality is based on the laws of man or the laws of whatever religion is followed.

Just because something is legal it doesn't mean you have to do it or participate.

There are multiple standards of behavior for staying out of jail dependent, to some extent, on geographic location and there are multiple standards for being rewarded in the afterlife depending on if you've chosen a religion that promises an afterlife.

So when slavery was legal it was OK?

 

[quietmike]

Really? So that's the only time killing is sanctioned?

WRT abortion, it's not a person.

Past democrats had pseudoscience of why slaves and native Americans didn't really count as people, and could be killed at will

 

[W54/XM-388]

How hard is to understand, killing people is wrong? No matter if it's injuns inhabiting land you want to develop, slaves who rebel against ownership, Jews who ruined the German economy, or a baby theatening to force you to face the consequences of being a filthy road whore.

We as a society seem to not only be fine with killing "innocent" people, you can see lots of examples of folks cheering for it and begging for it.
I mean just go look around here on the threads and see how many folks are begging for the "palestinians" to be genocided?

How many were cheering for and begging for as many "wearing towels on their heads people" to be killed as possible and couldn't care less about if it was men/women/children that our glorious forces killed.

Even the "good folks" seem to be pretty happy or at least perfectly fine with all the death and destruction that is done in the name of jingoism and "just following orders".

Folks don't seem to care if the local Uniform Hangers gun someone down because "they felt a twinge in their non existent balls" and "I have a right to go home safely, citizen be damned"...

So you know folks seem pretty happy all around with killing to solve any problem or inconvenience or whatever.