yup. how much debt have we acquired while running constant unjustified wars?
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Is something going on in Ukraine?
- Thread starter Cardboard55
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chwUmbOTjPU
The story of an elite Russian unit's war in Ukraine - BBC Newsnight
Evacuation convoy was agreed today for Mariupol' to Berdyansk-Zaporizhzhia
April 20 (Reuters) - Ukraine proposed talks with Moscow over evacuating troops and civilians from Mariupol after a Russian surrender-or-die ultimatum expired on Wednesday, leaving many trapped at a steel plant, the last main stronghold of resistance.
Reporting by Natalia Zinets in Ukraine and Reuters journalists; Writing by Peter Graff, Gareth Jones and Costas Pitas; Editing by Philippa Fletcher, Tomasz Janowski and Grant McCool
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??? I am highly aware the Russian army has not met your standards of Fighting.WTF are you talking about?
My statement was directly responding to your declaration that the Russians would have won by now had the West not provided overwhelming support after the Russians invaded.
The reason the Russians' didn't win in the first 30 days is simple.
They are REALLY bad at this whole warfare thing.
I mean they fucking suck.
I can't be more clear here so let me throw some additional adjectives down with caps lock on.
THEY REALLY FUCKING BLEW IT OUT THEIR ASS.
Maybe they will get their shit together. Maybe they won't.
What does the world have to gain from this?
Is the death and destruction being reaped outweighed by the benefit?
At a cost of ??? How many of these weapons will end up ... ELSEWHERE? This article is a month old.... so likely many more have been shipped.
https://www.nytimes.com/explain/2022/03/25/us/weapons-ukraine-war
https://www.nytimes.com/explain/2022/03/25/us/weapons-ukraine-war
I know anyone in here who favors an active foreign policy is a 'neocon' (seriously dude look up a new word), but just like "not supporting Ukraine" is not the same as "Supporting Russia", "Fucking with Russia" is not the same as "Pro Ukraine"
That's why its fun to do things like "Support Indias space program" aka "Fuck with China" (If you pay attention everytime India does a missle launch China gets all pissy)
I could give 2 shits about tibet--but if it becomes a pain in the ass to china, I'd be shipping the Dali Lhama as many AK-47s as he needs. Speaking of which the Uyguars (sorry spelling not m y strong suit) needs some toys to play with. Maybe some Korans and C4.
If an oppurtunity presents itself? Carpe Diem Bitches. No you don't run around establishing new states (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc). But if a bad actor has an infection, I'd sure as hell make sure that infection stays good and inflamed. (Ukraine, Soviets in Afghanistan, Taiwan, India/China border) costs me very little.
That's why its fun to do things like "Support Indias space program" aka "Fuck with China" (If you pay attention everytime India does a missle launch China gets all pissy)
I could give 2 shits about tibet--but if it becomes a pain in the ass to china, I'd be shipping the Dali Lhama as many AK-47s as he needs. Speaking of which the Uyguars (sorry spelling not m y strong suit) needs some toys to play with. Maybe some Korans and C4.
If an oppurtunity presents itself? Carpe Diem Bitches. No you don't run around establishing new states (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc). But if a bad actor has an infection, I'd sure as hell make sure that infection stays good and inflamed. (Ukraine, Soviets in Afghanistan, Taiwan, India/China border) costs me very little.
The resistance by Ukrainian troops in the steel factory is reminiscent of the Soviet troops resistance in the tractor factory in WWII Stalingrad.
My standards don't matter. The only standard that matters is victory. Clearly the Russians failed to meet the only standard that matters with their first strategy. They still have a chance to win, so the story is not finished, but the history of that first failed stage will be studied for many years.
As to your questions, you'll have to ask Putin for the Russian answer. We can only speculate as to why he invaded, but I'm of the mind to simply believe what he has been saying consistently for the past 20 years. Which is that he intends to rebuild the glory of Russia. My personal answer is, it is probably not worth it for the Russians. Putin overreached and it will hurt. The Russian people will hurt far worse in the long run.
If your asking about western support for Ukraine in a war against Russia, then I suggest you ask the Ukrainians if it is worth the cost of blood. They keep fighting and dying to defend their country, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Ukrainians believe its worth it.
As for if it is worth a few billion to the United States to send to the Ukraine? It's chump change compared to what we spend elsewhere because of Russia.
Give the Ukrainians a few billion dollars in military equipment while we cycle out our inventories? OR Spend dozens of billions trying to create another counter measure to whatever goofy super weapon Putin decides to build next?
Atomic cruise missile?
Deep sea intercept sub?
Extraterritorial exotic assassinations?
Anti-Satellite Rockets?
New ICBM's?
How many times does Russia attempt to breach our airspace each year?
How many weapons has he funneled to our enemies aboard?
How many nuclear attack subs do we maintain to keep a MAD option open?
How did those Russian made RPG-29's really end up in Iraq?
How many tanks and other weapons does Russia sell to African extremists?
All of those actions have a price tag associated with them that add into the tens of billions of dollars annually.... So.... Sure. Now that I think about, I'm quite content if the Ukrainians can take an old 155mm howitzer and shove it up Putin's ass.
I'm just waiting for the Georgian's to realize the occupation troops in South Ossetia have been depleted, the Japanese to take the Kuril Islands, and the people of Belarus to kick out their Putin puppet when they realize that Papa Putin is a paper tiger.
But I'm biased and my calculus might be off. I have always had a hate for commies.
I was just thinking that today and comparing the two. Big difference is that the Russians were constantly receiving some level of reinforcement from across the river. Can you imagine how the Russians would have performed if they went without resupply for over 40 days? I'd like to know more about the commander of the Ukrainian Marines holed up there.
The commander in the Mykolaiv region appears to be good in the field, but he might go down in history as the first general who went to war while he was out on bail awaiting trial.
betcha it posts in the bear pit.tranny taking credit for helping capture and kill gonzalo lira.
and just like at Stalingrad, the nazis aren't going to make it out.
the first 26 seconds is the Azov video. The Russian response video follows it. the Russian BMP going through the same Azov gates is a nice touch. But the shot up and thermobarically fried Azov guys is a brutal mic drop.
southfront.org
Russian Response To AFU Azov Regiment's Motivational Video
MORE ON THE TOPIC: “Our Last Days Or Hours”: Azov Militants Appeal To The World, Beg For Their Evacuation...
southfront.org
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They want you to make that analogy.
Maybe it's more like Paulus coming out of his rat hole thin and gaunt to surrender.
I'm of the opinion it's the commie Vietnamese getting in a border skirmish with Chinese.
He is doing what Russia has been saying for 30 years - No NATO on my border.
Fuck why does NATO exist?
it's an established fact that the Neocons are Trotskyists. that is their heritage, and they have not strayed from their roots.
for some unknown reason though, these neocons here think that they are actual "conservatives"yeah, sure. perpetual world revolution to promote "Democratic Ideals" that sounds "conservative"....not like Marxists at all.
edit - here's a better article:
Yeah, no shit that the neocons are a bunch of ex-commies. A few of us were saying that 20 years ago when we were arguing against fighting multi-front wars in the Middle East, and we got shouted down by the same people who are now taking up that position like they've owned it all along just because they stumbled into it ass-backwards while supporting Trump.
Excuse me if I tire quickly of getting lectured by people on the virtues of anti-interventionist foreign policy who were the same "conservatives" that jumped at the chance to vote for Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney. Had they voted for Ron Paul then maybe we could have avoided so many of the current entanglements in which we find ourselves, but nope, they were too busy getting hard-ons for fighting the Axis of Evil and claiming that democracy would come to the ME if we just bombed them a bit harder and maybe assassinated a few select leaders along the way.
Sorry if you're not one of the hypocrites; I'm not trying to lump you specifically into that category. But the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of self-claimed "conservatives" supported the neocon agenda for about 15 straight years, and so there's a 90%+ likelihood that someone taking up an anti-interventionist policy today was parroting the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz doctrine back in 2003 as if it was a core tenet of conservative principle. Not surprisingly, these are the same people who gleefully supported Cheney's "deficits don't matter" approach to government spending and now gripe about inflation and the $30T national debt.
So everyone in this thread felt strongly opposed to NATO expansion back in 2008, right?
Bush backs Ukraine and Georgia for Nato membership
George Bush this morning said he "strongly supported" Ukraine's attempt to join Nato, and warned he would not allow Russia to veto its membership bid
www.theguardian.com
Would have been nice if ya'll had voted for Ron Paul instead of McCain in the primaries, but that wasn't exactly a popular position in 2008 (or in 2012 when Paul opposed Romney, who ran on an anti-Russia platform).
Of course, ex-neocons aren't the only hypocrites in the room:
America’s Generation Gap on Ukraine
In Washington today, if you oppose keeping NATO’s doors open to Ukraine you’re a bit of a freak.
peterbeinart.substack.com
You know we're pretty deep into the Fourth Turning when so many influential policy makers and pundits can no longer keep track of what side they're supposed to be on. The problem is that a lot of disastrous policy got passed by neocons during the period in which they enjoyed a slim majority, and now we suffer the consequences.
Amazingly, there was a documentary on one of the PBS stations two evenings ago.... It covered the WW2 history of Stalingrad. That certainly helped to to make that analogy.
So as a nation we should be supporting a country that is third in human trafficking 1-2 in child trafficking, has been bombing its own population with cluster bombs since 2014. Has had bioweapons labs up and running since the mid-2000s. Ask any of the vets that contacted Sars in 08 in Iraq how they feel about that. You can't prove it came out of Ukraine but it came from one of the US labs for certain. Look at swine flu or bird flu and how that affects the cost index. How that effect made china now an owner of 1 out if every 4 pigs in this country.
Make sure you don't look up whose kids were being paid in the various sectors that were receiving money from us gov't. Even though not one of them spoke the language yet was compensated at a rate per month higher than the yearly income avg of the people who were being taxed in this country.
Make sure you don't look up whose kids were being paid in the various sectors that were receiving money from us gov't. Even though not one of them spoke the language yet was compensated at a rate per month higher than the yearly income avg of the people who were being taxed in this country.
Russian Defense Minister Says Mariupol Is Liberated. Azov Members Remain Surrounded In Industrial Area
Forces of Russia and the Donetsk People’s Republic have de-facto liberated the city of Mariupol. The resistance of Kyiv’s forces...
southfront.org
And the beat rolls on.
I do not care if Ukrainians ate children and fucked rats. You really think Russia is ANY better place than that? If you think so, I can pretty safely assume you do not live next to it. You have no clue what kind of place Russia is. Think of Africa but add more corruption. Think of Ukraine but add more corruption and barbaric lifestyle.
Either way, the main enemy is still Russia. Just because you fear that your HIV came from Ukraine instead of fucking your boyfriend, does not change the fact that Russia is the enemy of most European countries and USA also.
I doubt Russia will ever gain permanent foothold in there. We'll see but I hope as many of them as possible die there and I am glad to help the progress.
As to NATO, I hope you will leave NATO because Putin will require you to. Because you no longer believe in sovereignty of other countries, I guess yours is null too?
Ukraine is the example why NATO exists. You think commies just stand by and deem they have enough land, resources and people to govern? Nope.
Either way, the main enemy is still Russia. Just because you fear that your HIV came from Ukraine instead of fucking your boyfriend, does not change the fact that Russia is the enemy of most European countries and USA also.
I doubt Russia will ever gain permanent foothold in there. We'll see but I hope as many of them as possible die there and I am glad to help the progress.
As to NATO, I hope you will leave NATO because Putin will require you to. Because you no longer believe in sovereignty of other countries, I guess yours is null too?
Ukraine is the example why NATO exists. You think commies just stand by and deem they have enough land, resources and people to govern? Nope.
“Block off this industrial area so that a fly cannot not pass through,” Putin instructed his defense minister Sergei Shoigu.Russian Defense Minister Says Mariupol Is Liberated. Azov Members Remain Surrounded In Industrial Area
Forces of Russia and the Donetsk People’s Republic have de-facto liberated the city of Mariupol. The resistance of Kyiv’s forces...
And the beat rolls on.
Ukraine says mass graves in Mariupol were 20 times bigger than Bucha burial site; Biden to send more weapons and aid to Ukraine
The Russian president is choosing instead to seal off the vast Azovstal steel plant, where several thousand Ukrainian troops and civilians are encamped.
www.cnbc.com
The NATO excuse is bullshit imho.
Putin's halfassed invasion will get the Finns and others to join NATO.
As if Putin gives a shit anyways, seems like he wants the eastern part of Ukraine as that's where the "Russian Ukrainian" people live (and where all the minerals etc are).
I can understand why you'd be concerned with the skis, being from finland. From where I'm sitting, russia does not pose a substantial threat. China and my own gov are much greater threats than the 1980's boogyman.
Sure, kick "us" out... Fine by me. Maybe "you" can join and make up the funding deficit.
Lol, show me on the doll where Putin touched you.
That looks like a post Trump pie chart, AFTER he actually got them to pay the fair share they agreed to pay by treaty! Before that many were paying less than 1% of their GDP. Hopefully this wakes them the fuck up, and we stop funding their unsustainable, socialist experiments.
I find it funny that these NATO allies trash the USA, shrug their responsibilities and as soon as there's a threat to them they call for NATO intervention.
How about we, the USA, take a step back and let NATO (without the USA) deal with their problems.
How about we, the USA, take a step back and let NATO (without the USA) deal with their problems.
How about we reduce the number of American troops in all the NATO countries by 90%? I wonder what their GDP would be after that. Let the other NATO countries fill in.
So you want to destroy Russia because you fear them??
I think the fear is that most of these NATO countries are essentially welfare babies via the Marshall plan and defense funding. Leaving them high and dry might cause them to run to the arms of another "supporter", which would probably be someone that isn't aligned with the US. Kinda like Germany did with Russian oil.
they needed another revenue stream....
I am good with that. I can't wait for all the illegals to head somewhere else. Just imagine how well our roads, schools would be and we could end welfare food stamps. Thirty day vacations and early retirement.
There's plenty of upside in letting that happen.
There's plenty of upside in letting that happen.
I know and totally understand why most users here do not feel like going after Russia. Why play with it when you have bigger problems. You do not deserve the problems Europe has let gone too far before taking action. But I do appreciate all the help that costs Russians more lives.
You assume I care who leads that pile of shit? Russia has so far cost my country hundreds of thousands lives, shit-ton of money and degrading life for millions.Sure, kick "us" out... Fine by me. Maybe "you" can join and make up the funding deficit.
Lol, show me on the doll where Putin touched you.
You seem very knowledgeable about the good Putin does. Can you show me the places where Russia went and improved the quality of life in any way?
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the Fins hate Russia with an illogical passion. the last guy who was in here writing novels about his hatred of Russia was also from Finland. Russia refers to them as "little yappy dogs"
Europe is certainly big enough to look after themselves. Judging by Russian progress in Ukraine, who actually thinks Russia can threaten anyone without bringing up nukes?
Looks like it could be staged, Ukrainians selling a BTR to Donbas Militia, but you never know with all the BS coming out of Ukraine but i am certain stuff like this happens in many wars.
This war has not gone like Tom Clancy and Harold Coyle said it would, where the mighty Soviets use their mastery of combined arms to roll through Western Europe as if the red carpet was laid out for them. Nope - instead they drive their poorly-maintained armor down the road in neat rows without infantry or air support until they either get stuck in a mud bog or get popped by a rando with a Javelin.
It's definitely an interesting data point in support of the 2nd Amendment, though. "You can't go head-to-head with a modern military" kinda falls apart as an argument in favor of civilian disarmament.
On April 21, 1836, with their victory in the Battle of San Jacinto, Texas won independence from Mexico.
probably true. the south vietnamese did it all the time.
we forget, because of all the bullshit propaganda about the Ukrainians being supermen who can't be killed, and how they mow the Rooskies down like grass, that the actual reality is the Ukrainians have suffered very high losses, their equipment is blown up daily, and many of them have a lower morale than we might suppose. 100% guarantee that they are selling their own equipment and NATO lend lease equipment to the Russians for $$$. In fact, since 2014, there have been many cases of Ukrainian POWs asking not to go back.
You speaking for everyone? Like, including all the dudes who enthusiastically supported McCain over Ron Paul? Because I remember being a Ron Paul anti-globalist back in those days, and about 95% of conservatives wanted more NATO and more aggression against Russia. You might be consistent on this point, but for every one of you there were 19 others supporting a with-us-or-against-us stance against Russia and the Axis of Evil and anyone else not strictly in favor of Freedom and Democracy(tm).
Exactly this. NATO should have been disbanded when the USSR fell but the neocon MIC people wanted the "cold war" to continue. Follow the money. I've always thought that if we had really held out a hand up to Russia after the fall we likely could have turned them into an ally vs. a potential on-going enemy. I know, I know the corrupt Russian oligarchs and ex-KGB guys like Putin would not have liked it but I'd bet most average Russian citizens would have welcomed it. We missed the Overton window moment.
I know some things about how the Russian "mafia" (for lack of a better term) operates. I lived in a suburb of Seattle for several years and had several LEO friends and a couple harbor pilots tell me some stories that would surprise a lot of folks about how organized at crime the Russians were/are.
I also worked with the step-son of a former attorney for the city of Seattle who had some on going business stuff going on in Vladivostok that was, shall I say, highly questionable?
Turns out that Russia's grip on Europe has very little to do with military power and almost everything to do with energy dependence. The hilarious thing is that this is actually a much tougher problem to address.
On April 21, 1836, with their victory in the Battle of San Jacinto, Texas won independence from Mexico.
An even stronger argument for privately owned "Destructive Weapons" (i.e. Twin Sisters) @sirhrmechanic
they are whores. look at what Europe has done to itself since WW2. they became lazy, weak, unprincipled whores who let the US 'keep' them like a stable. All they seem to be able to do is whine about the evils of nationalism (except when it suits them in Ukraine) and decry their own history and heritage.
so yeah, if we pulled out and the Chinese showed up with a handful of cash, they would primp up their national makeup and start learning Chinese.
Come visit and try to find one citizen who has nobody in their family that died or house was not burned by them.
We hate them with passion, oh yes. But every chance they get, they sidewind. They have had years to gain trust but have gained none.
And in my defence, we are not the exception. Check Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Estonia.
But windmills and solar panels!
Everyone knows solar panels function flawlessly in the upper portions of the northern hemisphere.
Weak. There is no bigger insult. Especially when it’s true.
on the other hand, with the militant feminism that has swept Europe, there will be no shortage of Dutch girls eager to stick their fingers in the leaky dykes to save the windmills.
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