Is the POF P308 G4 worth the extra thousand over Ruger SR-762?

[shipwreck2]

I am looking for an 308 semi auto that can shoot wolf as I have so much of it already. The ruger online is going for around 1550 and the POF for around 2500. If I read correctly the POF takes some cues from the DMPS G2 with the dual extractor and POF says on their website that shooting wolf is fine.

Is the POF G4 that much better than the Ruger?

edited to correct pos to pof

 

[Skeld1]

I am looking for an 308 semi auto that can shoot wolf as I have so much of it already. The ruger online is going for around 1550 and the POS for around 2500. If I read correctly the POS takes some cues from the DMPS G2 with the dual extractor and POS says on their website that shooting wolf is fine.

Is the POS G4 that much better than the Ruger?

By POS I'm assuming you mean POF? The irony.

 

[Raivkka]

POF 308 can be gotten for about 2100 to 2200 new, I would say they are worth 500 more than the ruger for sure.

 

[shipwreck2]

yes I should have said POF P308

 

[shipwreck2]

Who has the g4 for around 2100? I see the g3 in that range but not the 4.

 

[Ballista One]

Have you considered buying an AR-10A or DPMS GII and building it or having it built to your specs? If your goal was to find the biggest and heaviest 308's on the market, give yourself an at-a-boy.

 

[Guest]

My P308 is a laser and has been 100% flawless since day one. I would say its worth the money but thats me.

 

[Cobracutter]

I would not shoot a POS if it was given to me. However, for the same or similar price, you can have a MWS (spring for a LM8, they are pigs).

Its a proven, combat rifle made by a respected name in the gun/military industry.

It's twice the gun the Ruger, DPMS, or POF is. Also look at the SCAR17. Unless you are looking for benchrest accuracy (which you will not get from any of these mentioned besides maybe a MWS with Cut rifle bore), it does everything those mentioned do, only lighter, less recoil, more reliable, more accurate and many features not availible on a large frame AR.

 

[Guest]

I would not shoot a POS if it was given to me. However, for the same or similar price, you can have a MWS (spring for a LM8, they are pigs).

Its a proven, combat rifle made by a respected name in the gun/military industry.

It's twice the gun the Ruger, DPMS, or POF is. Also look at the SCAR17. Unless you are looking for benchrest accuracy (which you will not get from any of these mentioned besides maybe a MWS with Cut rifle bore), it does everything those mentioned do, only lighter, less recoil, more reliable, more accurate and many features not availible on a large frame AR.

While you are entitled to your opinion I have to disagree on the accuracy statement. My P308 shoots .75" or better at 100yds all day long with best group being .53" shooting 175 SMK. It's not the lightest gun but is very accurate and recoil is very light. I know people have had issues with their POF's but mine has been 100% reliable since day one. Not a single FTE or FTF. Maybe I just got lucky but I'm happy with mine.

 

[samnev]

While you are entitled to your opinion I have to disagree on the accuracy statement. My P308 shoots .75" or better at 100yds all day long with best group being .53" shooting 175 SMK. It's not the lightest gun but is very accurate and recoil is very light. I know people have had issues with their POF's but mine has been 100% reliable since day one. Not a single FTE or FTF. Maybe I just got lucky but I'm happy with mine.

I 2nd the above. Mine has also been flawless since day 1. Yes some have their problems but IF you get a good one I'd spend the extra $$$ for the POF. MY POF P-308 is also more accurate than my LMT MWS.

 

[jasonfaz]

I would not shoot a POS if it was given to me. However, for the same or similar price, you can have a MWS (spring for a LM8, they are pigs).

Its a proven, combat rifle made by a respected name in the gun/military industry.

It's twice the gun the Ruger, DPMS, or POF is. Also look at the SCAR17. Unless you are looking for benchrest accuracy (which you will not get from any of these mentioned besides maybe a MWS with Cut rifle bore), it does everything those mentioned do, only lighter, less recoil, more reliable, more accurate and many features not availible on a large frame AR.

Hell, I wouldn't shoot it either if I had an ECC! But I digress...

To the OPs question. I feel the POF is a much better rifle than the Ruger. Especially with the ambi controls on the Gen 4 POF lowers. Are they heavy? Yep. Most piston rigs are not only heavy but they're fattys too. I like mine, but i did a bunch of machining to make it what I wanted it to be. Even then it's still not my favorite S/A 308, but it is a quality rifle IMO.

 

[USMC-Johnson]

seems like the Sig 716 DMR might be in the same ball park. It is a much better design. I havent been impressed by the quality control of POF lately

 

[Raivkka]

I think what most people do not take into consideration is that there are nice rifles in every price point, but the quality definitely increases as price goes up.
For 1500-1600 the Ruger is a super nice weapon, I own one. If I was in Ferguson or down in New Orleans during the hurricane I would not feel out gunned by anyone. That's not saying I would go to Afghanistan with one though.

Spending 2000-2500 is going to get you a better weapon. From 2500-3000 gets you a nicer one, and so on. So, comparing a 1500 weapon to a 2500 LMT is not an accurate comparison.
If I had the money I would easily buy the LMT over the Ruger, or a POF over the Ruger for that matter.

Buy once, cry once I say!

Compa

 

[Birddog6424]

I would not shoot a POS if it was given to me. However, for the same or similar price, you can have a MWS (spring for a LM8, they are pigs).

Its a proven, combat rifle made by a respected name in the gun/military industry.

It's twice the gun the Ruger, DPMS, or POF is. Also look at the SCAR17. Unless you are looking for benchrest accuracy (which you will not get from any of these mentioned besides maybe a MWS with Cut rifle bore), it does everything those mentioned do, only lighter, less recoil, more reliable, more accurate and many features not availible on a large frame AR.

I 3rd the above.

Although I also respect your opinion, I humbly disagree. I think you give other manufacturers too little credit.

I paid $1900 for my DPMS Gen II SASS. I'm 900 rounds in without a single malfunction of any type. The bolt weighs .2 ounces less than the JP low mass bolt, and with an adjustable gas block, is an extrmely soft shooter. I consistenly shoot .7 MoA with the best being .378 just using the very first reload recipe I came up with to get some break in on the gun, 43grs of Ramshot Tac under a 175gr SMK. I havent even worked up an optimal load yet.

There are a lot of great rifles out there. One or two manufacturers haven't cornered the market on accuracy and reliability.

 

[Skeld1]

I think what most people do not take into consideration is that there are nice rifles in every price point, but the quality definitely increases as price goes up.
For 1500-1600 the Ruger is a super nice weapon, I own one. If I was in Ferguson or down in New Orleans during the hurricane I would not feel out gunned by anyone. That's not saying I would go to Afghanistan with one though.

Spending 2000-2500 is going to get you a better weapon. From 2500-3000 gets you a nicer one, and so on. So, comparing a 1500 weapon to a 2500 LMT is not an accurate comparison.
If I had the money I would easily buy the LMT over the Ruger, or a POF over the Ruger for that matter.

Buy once, cry once I say!

Compa

I thought about an LMT but decided against it and went DPMS GII because the weight of the LMT seems a bit prohibitive to me in the battle rifle role. If they came out with a 7.5 pound version I would be interested. At that weight you're still pushing 10 pounds loaded up I suspect.

 

[Raivkka]

The difference between hobby guns and go to work guns is more than "does it go bang when you pull the trigger, or how accurate it is".

The expensive work guns are engineered to withstand abuse.
The gun must withstand repeated heat cycles. not get destroyed if it gets run over, does it resist wear from sand, mud, muddy water, survive the shock of firing thousand of rounds.
Will the gun break or diminish if it is repeatedly banged, dropped and knocked over.

When you buy a LMT, KAC or HK, you know they are built to take that. An ultra lightweight 308/7.52 rifle will not take that kind of abuse.

 

[BCP]

The POF is better than the Ruger. Ruger isn't bad though just has a shit trigger and buttstock from the factory.

LMT MWS is a great rifle and IMHO better than either of them but if you are just blasting around with wolf most anything will do. You could get one of the armalite 16" with a chrome lined barrel for 1100-1200 and have fun with that too.

ORRRRR sell your SHITTY wolf ammo and buy some better ammo and reloading supplies and get into handloading.

 

[Skeld1]

The difference between hobby guns and go to work guns is more than "does it go bang when you pull the trigger, or how accurate it is".

The expensive work guns are engineered to withstand abuse.
The gun must withstand repeated heat cycles. not get destroyed if it gets run over, does it resist wear from sand, mud, muddy water, survive the shock of firing thousand of rounds.
Will the gun break or diminish if it is repeatedly banged, dropped and knocked over.

When you buy a LMT, KAC or HK, you know they are built to take that. An ultra lightweight 308/7.52 rifle will not take that kind of abuse.

So you would suggest that it's not possible to build a "go to work" 7.62 AR below a certain weight? What is this magic number, and what is it about these guns that make them so much better specifically?

 

[shipwreck2]

Have you considered buying an AR-10A or DPMS GII and building it or having it built to your specs? If your goal was to find the biggest and heaviest 308's on the market, give yourself an at-a-boy.

I would love to get the DPMS G2 but I have contacted them twice about wolf ammo for practice and they basically said "no one should use foreign ammo" I cannot get a straight answer out of them if it really will give a problem, but it does not sound like they would honor any warranty and I cannot find anyone that has a g2 that has used a lot of wolf with it. I watched this video and do not think it will be a problem but no one seems to have done it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960

 

[Skeld1]

I would love to get the DPMS G2 but I have contacted them twice about wolf ammo for practice and they basically said "no one should use foreign ammo" I cannot get a straight answer out of them if it really will give a problem, but it does not sound like they would honor any warranty and I cannot find anyone that has a g2 that has used a lot of wolf with it. I watched this video and do not think it will be a problem but no one seems to have done it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960

I don't think it's a problem, but how much are you buying Wolf for? For around .60 cents per round you can find brass stuff.

 

[shipwreck2]

Have you considered buying an AR-10A or DPMS GII and building it or having it built to your specs? If your goal was to find the biggest and heaviest 308's on the market, give yourself an at-a-boy.

In regards to building one. I am open to that but that is a whole different way to go. And if it is just buying an upper an lower I am open to it, but I like the upper of the POS G4 and I don't see how I would be saving that much weight, unless you have recommendations.
As I understand it piston designs are better for shooting cheap ammo and better for suppressing which I want to do as well.


The reason I do not reload is time.

 

[shipwreck2]

I don't think it's a problem, but how much are you buying Wolf for? For around .60 cents per round you can find brass stuff.

I would buy brass at .60 but most the brass I have seen was around $1. I am getting wolf for about .40.

 

[apg2369]

Windham Weaponry 308 is 7 1/2 pound ..... I see your in Main should stop by sometime and take a tour .

 

[apg2369]

you can get gen 3 cheap if you look around

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

I like the ergos of the Ruger way more than the POS. Also, Ruger is less likely to give you the customer service run around, which has been well documented of POS (I realize some have had excellent experiences). The Ruger is a lot of rifle for the money, and has a surprisingly good fit and finish. The trigger is a standard parts kit trigger, but the one my father in law received is super crisp and not bad with a set of JP springs.

 

[Cobracutter]

While you are entitled to your opinion I have to disagree on the accuracy statement. My P308 shoots .75" or better at 100yds all day long with best group being .53" shooting 175 SMK. It's not the lightest gun but is very accurate and recoil is very light. I know people have had issues with their POF's but mine has been 100% reliable since day one. Not a single FTE or FTF. Maybe I just got lucky but I'm happy with mine.

While i respect your experince, your point of view is the single biggest flaw on this website.

People harp about "my gun shoots 1/2incg 1 mile groups" or "not a malfunction in 200rnds".

What they FAIL, every fuckinging time, is to think that perhaps, the company you bought that rifle from made more than 1 gun.

Perhaps, in an effort to turn a profit, they made lots of guns.

Perhaps, in making alot of guns, lots of guns have been sold to various customers

Perhaps, those various customers may not have the same experince as you.

1 or 2 or 10 guns means absolutley dogshit when a company is making 10K's of them.

So please, before you start the same tired bullshit, think that PERHAPS, you are not the only one out there with this perticular weapon.

 

[Cobracutter]

I 2nd the above. Mine has also been flawless since day 1. Yes some have their problems but IF you get a good one I'd spend the extra $$$ for the POF. MY POF P-308 is also more accurate than my LMT MWS.

So you admit they are flawed yet tell people to buy them, even when there are clearly superior options on the market.

Check.......

 

[Cobracutter]

I 3rd the above.

Although I also respect your opinion, I humbly disagree. I think you give other manufacturers too little credit.

I paid $1900 for my DPMS Gen II SASS. I'm 900 rounds in without a single malfunction of any type. The bolt weighs .2 ounces less than the JP low mass bolt, and with an adjustable gas block, is an extrmely soft shooter. I consistenly shoot .7 MoA with the best being .378 just using the very first reload recipe I came up with to get some break in on the gun, 43grs of Ramshot Tac under a 175gr SMK. I havent even worked up an optimal load yet.

There are a lot of great rifles out there. One or two manufacturers haven't cornered the market on accuracy and reliability.

See above

 

[Guest]

While i respect your experince, your point of view is the single biggest flaw on this website.

People harp about "my gun shoots 1/2incg 1 mile groups" or "not a malfunction in 200rnds".

What they FAIL, every fuckinging time, is to think that perhaps, the company you bought that rifle from made more than 1 gun.

Perhaps, in an effort to turn a profit, they made lots of guns.

Perhaps, in making alot of guns, lots of guns have been sold to various customers

Perhaps, those various customers may not have the same experince as you.

1 or 2 or 10 guns means absolutley dogshit when a company is making 10K's of them.

So please, before you start the same tired bullshit, think that PERHAPS, you are not the only one out there with this perticular weapon.

OP asked which was better for the money. I personally feel the POF is a better gun over the Ruger. For as many that have voiced issues, I know just as many that haven't had issues. Don't like it, don't buy it.

 

[Cobracutter]

So you would suggest that it's not possible to build a "go to work" 7.62 AR below a certain weight? What is this magic number, and what is it about these guns that make them so much better specifically?

Floating definitions.....

Is it possible to build a combat weapon system at home that could be trusted in austere conditions and hold up? Yes

How do you know? Has it been made in sufficent numbers (exact parts, assembly, same builder, ect) that it can be tested in numbers with reliable enough data to be trusted to?

The truth is, you have zero fucking idea. The time to find out your little dream mixmaster of parts will shit the bed, is not in the middle of a gunfight or on a $10K hunting trip.

You trust what is proven, and there are VERY few companies that are proven. HK, LMT, KAC, FN, COLT, BCM are on that short list. They all are Proven, in numbers, by the most demanding military units in the world. When you buy one, You are buying that engineering, experince, testing and proof, that they WILL WORK (or atleast should). Google machine some of the testing protocals used durring military weapon testing and it will blow you away with the type of shit they put them through. Testing/QC is a large reason why all those above named companies are at the prices they command.

So saying shit like POF or Ruger or LWRC or any of those commerical companies pumping out shit as fast as they can are on the same level as the above mentioned compnaies is fucking ludacris.

 

[Skeld1]

Floating definitions.....

Is it possible to build a combat weapon system at home that could be trusted in austere conditions and hold up? Yes

How do you know? Has it been made in sufficent numbers (exact parts, assembly, same builder, ect) that it can be tested in numbers with reliable enough data to be trusted to?

The truth is, you have zero fucking idea. The time to find out your little dream mixmaster of parts will shit the bed, is not in the middle of a gunfight or on a $10K hunting trip.

You trust what is proven, and there are VERY few companies that are proven. HK, LMT, KAC, FN, COLT, BCM are on that short list. They all are Proven, in numbers, by the most demanding military units in the world. When you buy one, You are buying that engineering, experince, testing and proof, that they WILL WORK (or atleast should). Google machine some of the testing protocals used durring military weapon testing and it will blow you away with the type of shit they put them through. Testing/QC is a large reason why all those above named companies are at the prices they command.

So saying shit like POF or Ruger or LWRC or any of those commerical companies pumping out shit as fast as they can are on the same level as the above mentioned compnaies is fucking ludacris.

I never said that. What I would like to see is these holy grail of mil spec companies come out with something lighter rather than pumping out more 9 or 10 pound large frame AR's, wouldn't you?

 

[Cobracutter]

I never said that. What I would like to see is these holy grail of mil spec companies come out with something lighter rather than pumping out more 9 or 10 pound large frame AR's, wouldn't you?

Beacuse it doesn't work. Its a heavy system. Not to mention light .308 guns that don't have recoil mitigation like the scar kick like fucking mules.

If weight reduction is your goal, then either go to a smaller platform or a SCAR17.

 

[Skeld1]

Beacuse it doesn't work. Its a heavy system. Not to mention light .308 guns that don't have recoil mitigation like the scar kick like fucking mules.

If weight reduction is your goal, then either go to a smaller platform or a SCAR17.

What recoil mitigation does the SCAR have besides a brake?

 

[Cobracutter]

What recoil mitigation does the SCAR have besides a brake?

The design. I have shot my SR-25 with the same brake on it. The SR is heavier and KAC guns are not overgassed as most AR's....... and the SCAR still had significantly less recoil shooting the same M80 ball loads. It was even more pronounced with my homebrew .308 AR. 3 shooters all noticed this as well.

The Brake is VERY effective, but the design is also part of it. Perhaps that is a factor or variable in why the recoil impulse is so sharp and destructive to optics/lasers.

 

[BCP]

I thought the same thing when shooting a 308 SCAR. Felt like 1/2 the recoil of other 308 gas guns.

 

[jasonfaz]

What recoil mitigation does the SCAR have besides a brake?

The SCAR 17 has multiple design advantages over almost every other S/A 308 out there. The entire operating mechanism that cycles the gun is located in the front. It spreads out the recoil impulse over the entire length of the rifle rather than the back 1/4. The carrier is contacted and driven rearward much closer to the center axis of the bore than either traditional DI or other piston designs. That aligns recoil impulse with your shoulder rather than above it. There are a few smaller enhancements that help as well, but those are the main two.

I can attest to the reduction in recoil. It's something like literally surprises you if you're used to the recoil of traditional 308 gassers...

 

[Luke]

FWIW, one of the main reason I sold my POF was the way their monolithic rail attaches puts the scope too high above boreline and necessitates a cheek riser, which then interferes with the charging handle. That being said it was an accurate rifle (<1 MOA), but the other stuff detracted enough that I ended up selling it...

 

[355sigfan]

So you admit they are flawed yet tell people to buy them, even when there are clearly superior options on the market.

Check.......

The SCAR 17 is clearly flawed as to accuracy and destroying optics, losing zero etc but you still recommend it. Nothing is perfect. After the most recent AR10 build I did for a friend I am pretty much ready to unload my SCAR 17.

 

[355sigfan]

BS on the recoil mitigation. I took the brake off my SCAR 17 and noticed it kicks the same as the AR10 carbine I used to have that weighed more. The brake is what gives the SCAR 17 its reduction in recoil not magic dust. The JP build I just did for a friend has a brake and it had slightly less recoil than the SCAR 17 with a brake. The reason the SCAR destroys optics has nothing to do with the brake rather the forward moving bolt mass which is several times heavier than an AR10 bolt group.
Pat

 

[Cobracutter]

The SCAR 17 is clearly flawed as to accuracy and destroying optics, losing zero etc but you still recommend it. Nothing is perfect. After the most recent AR10 build I did for a friend I am pretty much ready to unload my SCAR 17.

Good. One less person fucking up the gun and pretending its the platforms fault.

Just becaucse you couldn't make it through gunsmithing for dumbies, does not mean the vast majority share your sentiment.

Almost EVERYONE on this site, M4c, Ar15.com, Lightfighter and various other gun boards all report how suprised they are by the 17's acucracy, even with a think CL bore.

So either they are all full or shit or you picked the wrong career field sunshine. Costco should be hiring.

 

[samnev]

So you admit they are flawed yet tell people to buy them, even when there are clearly superior options on the market.

Check.......

Isn't it great to be the end all and be all. I strongly suggest a reading comprehension lesson might help you out. I didn't tell anyone to buy anything. Notice the capitalized IF, "Yes some have their problems but IF you get a good one I'd spend the extra $$$ for the POF". My reply was contingent on getting a good one, not a flat out recommendation. My reply stands. When the POF's are good they are very good. So my reply acknowledged some POF's have problems as cautionary advise on buying a POF. I have shot the new Ruger SR762 quite a bit. The one I and access to was an early one that had a horrible trigger. As bad as the trigger on the SCAR 17 I had and sold during the frenzy and was glad to see it go. The Ruger had only mediocre accuracy (1.5"-2.0" moa) with either 168 grain FGMM or my 175 grain hand loads that shoot consistent 0.75 5 shoot groups 100 yard groups some time much better in my POF P-308.

I always get a good laugh when I read your venomous posts. As far as I am concerned your rants on so many of other Hide members posts are nothing but BS, MS, PHD. Go head and figure that out since you are so omnipotent and know everything on every subject that has ever posted here. You may have a lot of experience with various weapons but you sorely need to get some anger management help if you are as angry in your daily life as most of your post and potty mouth seem to indicate you are.

Mate!!

 

[Cobracutter]

I have a doctorate now? Sweeeeet where be muh grantz

 

[355sigfan]

Good. One less person fucking up the gun and pretending its the platforms fault.

Just becaucse you couldn't make it through gunsmithing for dumbies, does not mean the vast majority share your sentiment.

Almost EVERYONE on this site, M4c, Ar15.com, Lightfighter and various other gun boards all report how suprised they are by the 17's acucracy, even with a think CL bore.

So either they are all full or shit or you picked the wrong career field sunshine. Costco should be hiring.

Well if I wanted a job at Costco I am sure you could put in a good word for me since you probably work there since your mom made you get a job. LOL.
Accuracy is not spelled acucracy by the way. I also could give a fuck less what some keyboard commandos say about any gun on the forums. I own a SCAR and I know exactly what it is good at and what its not. Its a gun and a tool not something to worship. Also anytime you want to see who the better shooter is let me know cupcake. I generally attend 2 major three gun matches a year down south and generally finish in the top 20% of my division.
Pat

 

[jasonfaz]

BS on the recoil mitigation. I took the brake off my SCAR 17 and noticed it kicks the same as the AR10 carbine I used to have that weighed more. The brake is what gives the SCAR 17 its reduction in recoil not magic dust. The JP build I just did for a friend has a brake and it had slightly less recoil than the SCAR 17 with a brake. The reason the SCAR destroys optics has nothing to do with the brake rather the forward moving bolt mass which is several times heavier than an AR10 bolt group.
Pat

Pat,
I was speaking to the variations in the actual design of the SCAR that are exclusive to the weapon. It was not an attempt to review the various means with which recoil can be managed regardless of weapon platform. That heavier bolt mass you mention BTW is another reason the recoil impulse seems so much softer.

As to the optic failure issue related to the design of the SCAR being the source of the problem....I don't have the energy. Hungover as fuck this morning and all.

 

[355sigfan]

Jasonfaz a heavier bolt does not reduce recoil. In fact in three gun most of us use low mass bolt systems to reduce perceived recoil and speed up shot to shot recovery. The advantages of a heavier bolt is greater reliability not softer recoil.

 

[Skeld1]

The heavier bolt does seem counter intuitive to the SCAR's lower recoil.

 

[355sigfan]

It's the muzzle brake PWS makes a good muzzle brake


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Birddog6424]

While i respect your experince, your point of view is the single biggest flaw on this website.

People harp about "my gun shoots 1/2incg 1 mile groups" or "not a malfunction in 200rnds".

What they FAIL, every fuckinging time, is to think that perhaps, the company you bought that rifle from made more than 1 gun.

Perhaps, in an effort to turn a profit, they made lots of guns.

Perhaps, in making alot of guns, lots of guns have been sold to various customers

Perhaps, those various customers may not have the same experince as you.

1 or 2 or 10 guns means absolutley dogshit when a company is making 10K's of them.

So please, before you start the same tired bullshit, think that PERHAPS, you are not the only one out there with this perticular weapon.

It's not tired bullshit. And it's entirely the wrong perspective to think it is.

Your argument is that only one person's testimony doesn't make for a valid argument. So how many people does it take? Exactly how many bad guns are there versus good guns? What are the exact numbers of bad rifles from the companies making 10k's of them? If you don't know that exact number then you are arguing from an uninformed position. You are simply stating unsupported opinion. Which quite honestly, carries less weight than the people offering opinions who actually own these rifles.

There is a whole thread on the DPMS Gen II on this forum. Most people seem pretty pleased so far. Does anyone have any idea how many bad gun stories it takes to offset the good gun stories? I can't speak for other manufacturers weapons, as I have only fired them on ocassion, I don't actually own any other AR10's. But with the exception of a very tired and malfunctioning Bushmaster, they all were fairly decent weapons. So from that perspective, do I declare all Bushmasters to be crap? Hardly seems fair because I don't know exactly how many run fine versus not.

At this year's MGM Ironman, my buddies $3500 JP rifle suffered a catastrophic failure on the long range bonus section. My DPMS ran flawlessly for three people to get all their hits without effort. So go figure.

Again, I do respect your opinion. But I still humbly disagree with it.

 

[Birddog6424]

Jasonfaz a heavier bolt does not reduce recoil. In fact in three gun most of us use low mass bolt systems to reduce perceived recoil and speed up shot to shot recovery. The advantages of a heavier bolt is greater reliability not softer recoil.

This is true. Heavier bolts increase recoil impulse.

Going to a lighter bolt and turning down the gas gives you reduced mass at equivalent acceleration which equals reduced force.

My low mass system in my competition rifle is a wonder. The gun goes still booms and sounds like there should be some recoil im pulse, but you feel next to nothing at the stock. It actually takes some getting used to.

I've fired a Scar 17 on two ocassions. Both times it sure felt like it recoiled more to me than other .308's I had fired. There's that opinion thing again based on very little actual experience.

 

[jasonfaz]

Jasonfaz a heavier bolt does not reduce recoil. In fact in three gun most of us use low mass bolt systems to reduce perceived recoil and speed up shot to shot recovery. The advantages of a heavier bolt is greater reliability not softer recoil.

I said "the heavier bolt mass you mention" only because those were your words. It's not the mass of the bolt alone but the collective parts referred to as "reciprocating mass" that I am referring to. And in a SCAR it certainly does reduce felt recoil as it absorbs a larger degree of recoil energy and doesn't move at the velocity lighter units will. That said, 3 gunners certainly do run extremely light carriers in addition to light springs and hollowed out buffers. They are also using ammunition appropriate for such a set up. Considering the SCAR's design intent is specifically geared towards mil applications running 7.62 NATO pressures that heavy reciprocating mass is really nice to have and helps keep the muzzle rise to a minimum. There's a shit load more to recoil mgmt outside of the single aspect of reciprocating mass. If that wasn't the case we'd have a bunch of dudes runnin rifles with titanium carriers and carbon fiber handguards up mountains in the Ghan.